(Quality Control) Steel Arceus (skeleton)

[Psylink]

So not Forry

...

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http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/arceus-steel

I’m Psylink, doing a support set for Arceus-Steel

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Will-o-Wisp
move 2: Roar/Perish Song
move 3: Recover
move 4: Ice Beam/Judgment
item: Iron Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP/252 Spe/4 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

-Walls and outspeeds a normally EVed Extreme Killer Arceus and many others.
-Can burn to cripple defensive Pokemon and physical attackers with Will-o-Wisp.
-Can phase with the move of choice: Roar is a faster way of getting them out, while Perish Song is a good, well, gg.
-Has reliable recovery with Recover.
-EVs are designed to take abuse from physical attacks.
-Timid outspeeds Adamant Arceus-Normal, and speed ties with Jolly, unless using Extreme Speed, but that's rather pointless on it's part.
-Can outspeed Rayquaza and Kyurem-W with 168 Spe EVs

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
-Setup bait for many Pokemon, like Forretress and Groudon, and Groudon can hit hard with it’s STAB, but is neutered by WoW, and can't take repeated Judgements.
-Loves hazards from the Deoxys forme of choice (Roar or Perish Song can pahze nicely)
-Loves Kyogre, but isn’t required to function. If there isn’t Kyogre, then a Fire resist is ideal.
-Frail sweepers are good teammates, as a big revenge killer is neutered. Mewtwo is a good example.
-Dragon-types can't be used as freely, as Arceus-Steel walls physical sets, but can decently wall special attacks as well.
-Can run Stealth Rock, but that means getting rid of a means of attack, recovery, the ability to neuter physical attackers, or phazing. They are all important, but you can decide what to replace.
-Toxic can be ran over Will-o-Wisp to cripple Calm Mind users and defensive Pokemon.
-Is only a check to Arceus-Normal. If you know it has Lum Berry, then use something else to answer it.

[shrang]

So I'm not sure about what you're doing here. Is this supposed to be a revamp or just the support set? If it's just a support set, please indicate on the thread title that it's just a support set.

[Furai]

Steel Arceus could use a revamp in my opinion. Would you like to do it, Psylink?

[Theorymon]

CM certainly needs to be there before I approve this, and to be honest, I still think the SD set deserves to be in the analysis (as the last set obviously). Steel as a STAB is lame, but its such an amazing typing that I think it can still pull off an SD set. Also, I've found that SD Steel Arceus is also one of the few SD Arceus that can get away with Will-O-Wisp

Think something like

-Swords Dance
-Iron Head
-Earthquake / Will-O-Wisp
-Recover

with Jolly and max Speed + Atk. I never tried a max HP version, though I swear I've heard someone bring that up before.

Edit: Also, the evs are wrong for the first set, you are going to need max HP not max defense...

[Psylink]

Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon

CM certainly needs to be there before I approve this, and to be honest, I still think the SD set deserves to be in the analysis (as the last set obviously). Steel as a STAB is lame, but its such an amazing typing that I think it can still pull off an SD set. Also, I've found that SD Steel Arceus is also one of the few SD Arceus that can get away with Will-O-Wisp

Think something like

-Swords Dance
-Iron Head
-Earthquake / Will-O-Wisp
-Recover

with Jolly and max Speed + Atk. I never tried a max HP version, though I swear I've heard someone bring that up before.

Edit: Also, the evs are wrong for the first set, you are going to need max HP not max defense...

Shrang, Theorymon, this is just a support set, but I could do a full revamp if you would like.

[Psylink]

Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon

CM certainly needs to be there before I approve this, and to be honest, I still think the SD set deserves to be in the analysis (as the last set obviously). Steel as a STAB is lame, but its such an amazing typing that I think it can still pull off an SD set. Also, I've found that SD Steel Arceus is also one of the few SD Arceus that can get away with Will-O-Wisp

Think something like

-Swords Dance
-Iron Head
-Earthquake / Will-O-Wisp
-Recover

with Jolly and max Speed + Atk. I never tried a max HP version, though I swear I've heard someone bring that up before.

Edit: Also, the evs are wrong for the first set, you are going to need max HP not max defense...

Sorry about the double post, but that's the same set as before except for EVs. Changed the support set EVs

[ThisMysteriousGuy]

Just some general comments as an avid fan of Steelceus

-Setup bait for many Pokemon, like Forretress and Groudon, and Groudon can KO with it’s STAB.

While it is setup bait for Forretress, I don't feel it's setup bait for Groudon. Groudon really hates Will-o-Wisp (Support Groudon can't 2HKO once it has been burned and I think this might be the case with some offensive versions as well) and also can't take repeated Judgements.

You can remove some Spe EVs and put them into the opposite defense for mixed walling. However, to outspeed Extreme Killer, you need at least 172 Spe EVs.

Note that this is only the case for standard EKiller. Also note that 168 EVs of Speed is needed to outspeed Rayquaza, Kyurem-W, and Kyurem-B, all of which are Pokemon Steelceus can check nicely.

Also do note that despite this set being "Physically-Defensive" Steelceus can still tank Draco Meteors and other Special Dragon moves without much issue, and as such would make a good check to stuff like SubCM Latias.

[Psylink]

Originally Posted by Fat ThisMysteriousGuy

Just some general comments as an avid fan of Steelceus



While it is setup bait for Forretress, I don't feel it's setup bait for Groudon. Groudon really hates Will-o-Wisp (Support Groudon can't 2HKO once it has been burned and I think this might be the case with some offensive versions as well) and also can't take repeated Judgements.



Note that this is only the case for standard EKiller. Also note that 168 EVs of Speed is needed to outspeed Rayquaza, Kyurem-W, and Kyurem-B, all of which are Pokemon Steelceus can check nicely.

Also do note that despite this set being "Physically-Defensive" Steelceus can still tank Draco Meteors and other Special Dragon moves without much issue, and as such would make a good check to stuff like SubCM Latias.

Made a majority of those changes. Any more nitpicks before I'm ready for QC? Unless you want me to do a full revamp, which I'm happy to do.

[shrang]

Firstly, we've decided that we don't want you doing the entire revamp just yet. You still seem relatively new to the system, and Steelceus is an important analysis. We'll get you just working on this set first.

Onto the set itself, I really don't think what you have their is optimal. Steelceus needs to run a Timid nature if you want to as comprehensively check ExtremeKiller and other Arceus formes, as well as Latias and Latios. Jolly ExtremeKillers exist, and they'll just EQ the crap out of you before you get to do anything. At least with max speed, you have a speed tie to factor in. I also think Iron Head is mediocre on this set. It's really weak. While I guess you can attempt to flinch hax Latios, Judgement is just more consistent, and you can Roar out Latios anyway. What I think the set should look like:

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Will-o-Wisp
move 2: Roar / Perish Song
move 3: Recover
move 4: Judgment
item: Iron Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

- Mention in AC: Stealth Rock, Toxic

[Psylink]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Firstly, we've decided that we don't want you doing the entire revamp just yet. You still seem relatively new to the system, and Steelceus is an important analysis. We'll get you just working on this set first.

Onto the set itself, I really don't think what you have their is optimal. Steelceus needs to run a Timid nature if you want to as comprehensively check ExtremeKiller and other Arceus formes, as well as Latias and Latios. Jolly ExtremeKillers exist, and they'll just EQ the crap out of you before you get to do anything. At least with max speed, you have a speed tie to factor in. I also think Iron Head is mediocre on this set. It's really weak. While I guess you can attempt to flinch hax Latios, Judgement is just more consistent, and you can Roar out Latios anyway. What I think the set should look like:

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Will-o-Wisp
move 2: Roar / Perish Song
move 3: Recover
move 4: Judgment
item: Iron Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

- Mention in AC: Stealth Rock, Toxic

Will do in the morning, as of 11 PM in GMT-7.

[Psylink]

Originally Posted by Fat Psylink

Will do in the morning, as of 11 PM in GMT-7.

Changes made

[shrang]

Sorry to make you change again, but we've decided that Judgement isn't the option as the attacking move. I've discussed with QC, and we feel that Ice Beam is a better option as the attacking move. Judgement's main targets are Kyurem-W, Terrakion and Tyranitar which admittedly are important. However, Ice Beam hits way more targets, such as Rayquaza / Lati@s / Garchomp / Salamence / Zekrom / Groudon / Groundceus / Landorus(-T) / Gliscor / Shaymin-S. Long story short, Ice Beam hits more targets for more damage than Judgement, so I think it's better off as the primary slash.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Will-o-Wisp
move 2: Roar / Perish Song
move 3: Recover
move 4: Ice Beam / Judgment
item: Iron Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[Psylink]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Sorry to make you change again, but we've decided that Judgement isn't the option as the attacking move. I've discussed with QC, and we feel that Ice Beam is a better option as the attacking move. Judgement's main targets are Kyurem-W, Terrakion and Tyranitar which admittedly are important. However, Ice Beam hits way more targets, such as Rayquaza / Lati@s / Garchomp / Salamence / Zekrom / Groudon / Groundceus / Landorus(-T) / Gliscor / Shaymin-S. Long story short, Ice Beam hits more targets for more damage than Judgement, so I think it's better off as the primary slash.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Will-o-Wisp
move 2: Roar / Perish Song
move 3: Recover
move 4: Ice Beam / Judgment
item: Iron Plate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Then you'll troll me and change it again.

But in all seriousness, changed. If you don't mess with me like that again (lol) then I'm ready for QC Checks

[Psylink]

This thread is being neglected :( Is bump a thing in C&C? Or is that just RMT? If so, then bump.

[shrang]

A couple more things:

-You can remove some Spe EVs and put them into defenses for mixed walling. However, to outspeed Extreme Killer, you need at least 172 Spe EVs, and 168 EVs to outspeed Rayquaza and Kyurem forms.

I wouldn't really bother with trying to outspeed different ExtremeKiller spreads, since all they'll do is just speed creep you. Just get rid of the 172 IMO. 168 with a neutral nature can stay for Ray and Kyurem if you want. While you're there, couple of other benchmarks might also be handy (Like 176 Timid for Latios, 112 Timid for Garchomp).

A very important thing to mention, though, IMO, is that Steel Arceus, while it can check ExtremeKiller, it's not a very reliable one. You can be screwed over in quite a different number of ways. Lum ExtremeKiller ignores WoW altogether and Brick Breaks / EQs your face. EQ WILL put you into ExtremeSpeed kill range, and while you have a chance at surviving +2 Brick Break + ExtremeSpeed, you'd have to hit Will-O-Wisp twice, which isn't the most reliable of things to try (only a 56.25% chance). The other way you can lose is if you face Jolly ExtremeKiller with a Life Orb (using Earthquake). You speed-tie with it, and factoring in Will-O-Wisp's accuracy, you only have a 37.5% chance to pull off a successful burn, which is something I don't like putting my trust in.

Finally, I know the GP team would probably get to this, but it would be nice to just touch up the formatting. Since Smogon uses American English, you need to use "Judgment" and "Judgement" (I don't like it either, but you're just going to have to deal with it), and every time you have a slash, it needs to have a space between words and slashes (so eg 252 HP (space) / 4 Def / 252 Spe)

Do these and I'll approve.

[Psylink]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

A couple more things:



I wouldn't really bother with trying to outspeed different ExtremeKiller spreads, since all they'll do is just speed creep you. Just get rid of the 172 IMO. 168 with a neutral nature can stay for Ray and Kyurem if you want. While you're there, couple of other benchmarks might also be handy (Like 176 Timid for Latios, 112 Timid for Garchomp).

A very important thing to mention, though, IMO, is that Steel Arceus, while it can check ExtremeKiller, it's not a very reliable one. You can be screwed over in quite a different number of ways. Lum ExtremeKiller ignores WoW altogether and Brick Breaks / EQs your face. EQ WILL put you into ExtremeSpeed kill range, and while you have a chance at surviving +2 Brick Break + ExtremeSpeed, you'd have to hit Will-O-Wisp twice, which isn't the most reliable of things to try (only a 56.25% chance). The other way you can lose is if you face Jolly ExtremeKiller with a Life Orb (using Earthquake). You speed-tie with it, and factoring in Will-O-Wisp's accuracy, you only have a 37.5% chance to pull off a successful burn, which is something I don't like putting my trust in.

Finally, I know the GP team would probably get to this, but it would be nice to just touch up the formatting. Since Smogon uses American English, you need to use "Judgment" and "Judgement" (I don't like it either, but you're just going to have to deal with it), and every time you have a slash, it needs to have a space between words and slashes (so eg 252 HP (space) / 4 Def / 252 Spe)

Do these and I'll approve.

All changes made