(Quality Control) Forretress (Custap Lead) (QC 2/3)

**Harsha** · Apr 2nd, 2013, 12:25:29 AM

I saw that we were working on the Custap set for Skarmory, so I thought we may as well go ahead and post Forretress's.

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Forretress

[SET]
name: Custap Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Spikes / Toxic Spikes
move 3: Explosion
move 4: Rapid Spin / Gyro Ball
item: Custap Berry
ability: Sturdy
nature: Lax
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
ivs: 18 SpD / 30 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

While Forretress if generally seen rocking a defensive set, meant to provide quick entry hazards or Rapid Spin support, it can also function as an ideal lead. For teams that look to gain momentum as early as possible, Forretress can hammer down some early entry hazards to pave the way for a sweep later on. While Forretress does not seem like a very functional lead due to its low Speed, the secret to its success lies in the Custap Berry. With a Custap Berry and Sturdy, Forretress can generally get at least two layers of entry hazards, which is very helpful for most teams when trying to dent the opponent.

Stealth Rock is nearly a mandatory entry hazard on any dedicated lead for good reason—Forretress can lay Stealth Rock to ensure that opposing threats such as Volcarona, Salamence, and Dragonite must think twice before entering the battle field. Spikes are generally the preferred second choice because they can get more residual damage on grounded Pokemon, weakening walls for end-game sweeps. However, some prefer Toxic Spikes to cut down the durability of opposing Pokemon—Spikes are generally the better choice in this metagame due to the plethora of Rapid Spin users, Steel-type Pokemon, and Poison-type Pokemon.

Explosion comes in handy for when Forretress reaches low health. With a Custap Berry, Explosion will hit the opponent before Forretress takes damage (unless attacked by a priority move). Explosion allows Forretress to spinblock and keep its hazards on the field; additionally, it forces the opponent into an unfavorable matchup once Forretress goes down. Rapid Spin is a good option for Forretress's final moveslot because it allows Forretress to disregard opposing Pokemon that try and stack entry hazards and gives Forretress a free Rapid Spin when Custap Berry activates. Gyro Ball also works in the final slot because it prevents opposing setups and does a bit of damage without having to actually sacrifice Forretress.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

Forretress's EVs are tailored to...

---

- ideal lead because it can get at least two layers of hazards down against most teams (provided they lack lead terrakion)
- while it may look outclassed by skarmory due to its lower speed, it has access to explosion, so it can use its custap berry to spinblock and gain momentum against greedy spinners
- gyro ball deals damage against faster opponents if you need to do so
- evs maximize gyro ball's and explosion's powers
- ivs survive rain politoed's scald and give a good chance of allowing custap activation even after a burn
- you can fit rapid spin on there if you want, but it's really not that useful since this set is mainly meant to lead
- pair it with a pokemon that will keep hazards down (e.g. gengar)
- fits on heavy offensive teams looking to get quick spikes and rocks up so they can get to work fast
- make sure you get rid of taunt / magic bounce pokemon before you start setting up hazards
AC
- volt switch for momentum, lets you scout and switch to tyranitar to trap (can use it with max special attack)
- toxic

jc104 · Apr 2nd, 2013, 10:47:06 AM

I'd consider investing in defense instead of minimising it, just on the physical side i.e 252 Atk / 252 Def and 0 SpD IVs. Forretress's defense is still very decent even when minimised. For example, terrakion won't activate your custap berry with close combat (but now it will 2HKO instead of being a 3HKO and activating your custap). It's pretty difficult to 2HKO forretress with a physical attack when it invests in defense. Now stuff can 2HKO it very easily, but it still takes a pretty powerful attack to activate sturdy (CB terrak can't do it!). More often, a 3HKO will become a 2HKO than a 2HKO will become strong enough to activate custap.

Generally, I would rather see the custap lead be less dedicated. A physically defensive forretress is generally useful, while this thing is almost totally useless if the opponent has a taunt user and prevents it doing its lead job. Forretress's special defense, however, is probably bad enough that you can deliberately lower it without adversely affecting forretress too much.

ThePillsburyDoughBoy · Apr 2nd, 2013, 1:45:08 PM

In my experience in using lead Forretress, I used Volt Switch over Gyro Ball. While Gyro Ball does prevent set up of certain Pokemon, Volt Switch is extremely handy for those Pokemon that decide to Taunt and it allows to get a free switchin. Since Forry is so slow, Volt Switch will practically get a free switchin every time. While Explosion and Volt Switch do nearly the same thing, Volt Switch does it without killing Forry xD.

I would refrain from posting a Mental Herb version or maybe mentioning a Mental Herb version. My reasoning behind this is that a Mental Herb Forretress is more inclined to a bulkier lead with Rapid Spin on it, since it is not inclined to get into a low range of health and needs to rely on bulk for 2 layers. Without Custap Berry, Forretress struggles to prevent opposing boosting Pokemon from setting up and acts as a free switchin for a lot of Pokemon, so it needs to sacrifice a moveslot for Explosion to prevent setup. I was struggling to justify Forretress over Azelf, which nearly does the same thing:

Comparison

Looking at the first set for Forretress, outside of lead Aerodactyl, I find it hard to justify Forretress over lead Azelf. Now looking at sets 2 and 3 for Forretress, its really hard to stomach the con of only getting a matchup with Explosion or not having the ability to stop opposing entry hazards. Without Spikes lead Forry with Mental Herb IMO is outclassed by Azelf, but with them it is hard to swallow either not stopping opposing entry hazards or no matchup with VSwitch.

I also want to make a note that with the given spread, lead custap Forry is also stopped by both Breloom and Amoonguss (yes it outspeeds) because of Spore.

edit: ignore block with explosion since forry is so slow whoops

BKC · Apr 3rd, 2013, 1:34:33 PM

slash in volt switch, it lets you scout starmie/tentacruel/xatu/espeon and then switch to something like a scarf tar to get rid of them so forret can do his thing. you can run max spatk so it actually does some decent damage. other than that looks good

alexwolf · Apr 9th, 2013, 3:35:44 PM

Forretress should use this spread: 252 Atk / 252 Def with a Naughty nature and 30 Spe IVs. With this spread Forretress has 115 Speed, one point above Gastrodon, which there is no reason to underspeed, as by outspeeding it you can set-up hazards on it even if Sturdy can't be activated and you are not in Custap range. Also i put 30 Spe IVs to underspeed any Forretress that doesn't use a -Speed nature and 0 IVs in Speed, as underspeeding it means that you get the advantageous match-up with Volt Switch (i don't know if this is acceptable so if it isn't ingore me and just use 31 Speed IVs).

I maxed defense because even with zero defense investment and 0 Def IVs Forretress is still fairly physically bulky and was almost never brought to Custap Range by a single physical attack, making the physical bulk loss uneeded. With Max Def you can survive longer against physical threats and even revenge kill more stuff with Explosion if you happen to be alive at mid or late-game (for example against an Outraging dragon).

Lavos Spawn · Apr 9th, 2013, 11:33:32 PM

in my experience volt switch kinda blows on the custap set, why do you want to switch out as a hazard setting lead? doesn't really make sense to me, i get that there are certain instances where you might use it but usually all i do is get a couple layers up and then boom or gyro whatever. volt switch is way too situational to be slashed. i also tried out mono normal attacker with sr, spikes, spin, and boom, and it actually worked pretty well because then i could handle stuff like skarmory 1v1 and boom when my custap activated. of course then you can't hit gengar or jellicent, but the former is too scared of gyro ball to do anything and jellicent counters this set anyways (i guess that's the reason you would have volt switch). so yeah i'd remove volt switch, bkc sucks. ac seems to me like it would be the right place for it.

alexwolf · Apr 28th, 2013, 9:19:19 AM

Yeah i kinda agree with Lavos. Slashing Rapid Spin after Gyro Ball seems as the better option to me, and Volt Switch goes to AC.

Harsha are you still working on this or you want us to reassign it?

**Tobes** · Apr 28th, 2013, 7:34:57 PM

ok Pocket asked me to comment on this sooooo

First off let's talk about the EV spread: I hate lowering stats without a specific purpose. It's just wasteful if you're not lowering for specific reasons. So I'd think we'd want to run calculations and see which attacks it's worth lowering your IVs for. Last thing you want is to miss a Custap activation on a resisted attack because your Special Defense was too low and you took ~60% when you would've only been 3HKOed before, etc. Having lowered defenses is probably beneficial for this set in a lot of situations, but let's have some precision about it. Now, I'm not going to run the move calcs myself because I'm lazy and not on QC. Sorry! But they probably should be run by someone.

Secondly, Forretress needs to be doing the things that distinguish it from Custap Skarmory.

Toxic Spikes (Ctrl + F "Toxic Spikes". No results found...)
Explosion
Rapid Spin

and to a lesser extent

Gyro Ball
Volt Switch

So taking these into consideration:

move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Spikes / Toxic Spikes
move 3: Explosion
move 4: Rapid Spin / Gyro Ball

AC: Volt Switch / Toxic

Is how I would do it.

Lavos Spawn · Apr 28th, 2013, 7:52:46 PM

i second that set, though i do feel that tspikes is borderline ac material since they're useless vs sun and any other sort of team with a poison type (tentacruel and amoonguss come readily to mind) plus most teams that will want to be running such a set, namely hyper-offensive teams, won't appreciate the slow damage that poison/toxic racks up on the opponent as much as they would some quick damage from spikes...in most cases. i guess it's entirely situational but i would never use tspikes on the lead set is all. i'll leave it up to the rest of qc

alexwolf · Apr 28th, 2013, 9:12:50 PM

The set definitely needs some Def EVs, as well as max HP and Def IVs, as i already said. For example, with 0 Def and 0 HP IVs and even with 31 Def and 31 HP IVs, lead Terrakion always 2HKOes with Close Combat (99.61% of the time when using 31 Def and HP IVs) without activating Custap Berry. To avoid the 2HKO 236 Def EVs are needed, as well as 31 HP and Def IVs.

- 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 236 Def Forretress: 123-145 (42.26 - 49.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Offensive Pivot Landorus-T has a small chance (9.77%) to 2HKO 31 HP and Def IVs Forretress with EQ and 56 Def EVs are needed to avoid the 2HKO.

Forretress needs 96 HP and 252 Def EVs with a neutral Defense nature to avoid the 2HKO from Garchomp's LO EQ, or 244 Def EVs with a +Def nature. Going with an Lax nature and 244 Def EVs seems to be the best option to avoid giving Forretres uneeded special bulk.

Moving on, Forretress needs 2 SpD IVs or less (assuming 31 HP IVs) to make sure that defensive Politoed's Scald will always bring Forretress to Custap Berry range:

- 0 SpA Politoed Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Forretress in rain: 217-256 (74.57 - 87.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Finally, with 0 SpD IVs and a -SpD nature, Bulky Attacker Rotom-W has a small chance to bring Forretress into Custap Berry range with Volt Switch.

So from all those calcs against of common leads, we can deduce that the best EV and IV spread is this:

EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def with a Lax nature
IVs: 31 HP / 31 Def / 0 SpD / 31 Spe (to outspeed Gastrodon, Slowbro, and other slowpokes if Forretress happens to be alive later in the game. However if using Gyro Ball going with 0 Spe IVs and a Relaxed nature is perfectly fine as well)

**Tobes** · Apr 29th, 2013, 1:54:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Moving on, Forretress needs 2 SpD IVs or less (assuming 31 HP IVs) to make sure that defensive Politoed's Scald will always bring Forretress to Custap Berry range:

- 0 SpA Politoed Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Forretress in rain: 217-256 (74.57 - 87.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

20 SpD IVs with a Lax nature and 4 HP actually seems to be optimal in this scenario:

0 SpA Rain Politoed Scald vs 4(31)/0(20) Lax Forretress: 214-253 (73.28 - 86.64%)

With this we always survive the Scald burn, so even though Explosion will be nerfed we can still get in another layer of hazards. All with only a 5 HP margin of error for Scald failing to put us in Custap range (219 is the damage benchmark from 292 HP), so we're trading off ~12.8% of the chance for Scald to put Forretress in Custap range in order to ensure we live the 30% burn rate.

**Pocket** · Apr 29th, 2013, 2:38:32 AM

Thanks for the calcs, alexwolf & Tobes! I think we should go with Tobes's IV & EV spread. I understand that 0 SpD has a 25% chance for Rotom-W's Volt Switch to bring Forry into Custap range, but it's less reliable than the 100% chance to survive defensive Toed's Scald (barring a Scald crit burn).

**Tobes** · Apr 29th, 2013, 3:19:52 AM

Actually now that I think about it I made a mistake; instead it should probably be an 18 SpD IV.

219-258 (75 - 88.35%)

The purpose of these optimizations is to maximize our chances of successfully pulling off a Custap activation. So I made a mistake in erring on the side of the guaranteed Scald survival, since even if we have some room to be killed by Scald's burn we still have a further 70% chance of not being affected.

Compare the chance of a failed Custap activation with the previous IV (ignoring crit Scald burn), 12.8%, to the chance with this IV of both being hit into Scald burn OHKO range and being burned by Scald: 2.3%. Much better.

So in summary:
Lax
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
18 SpD / 30 Spe

alexwolf · Apr 29th, 2013, 2:38:22 PM

Seems good Tobes!

alexwolf · May 4th, 2013, 6:09:02 PM

Quote:

ivs survive rain politoed's scald and give a good chance of allowing custap activation even after a burn

IVs provide the best possible chance to bring Forretress to Custap activation range after taking a Scald from defensive Politoed without getting OHKOed if a Scald burn occurs. Max Def IVs and EVs, as wel as a +Def nature, to avoid the 2HKOs from LO Garchomp's EQ, Sash Terra's CC, as well as to take random Outrages better, if Forretress happens to be alive after the first few turns.

Change the desription of Rapid Spin, as it is the first option on the last slot now.

Quote:

pair it with a pokemon that will keep hazards down (e.g. gengar)

Elaborate a bit pls. Gengar is almost mandatory as a teammate, but Weavile, Scarf Gothitelle, and ScarfTar are good teammates too, to trap any spinner that manages to get past Gengar. All of those Pokemon can deal with Magic Bounce Pokemon too, which prevent Forretress from setting up. Oh Focus Sash Gengar gets bonus points as a teammate as it also can revenge kill anything that managed to set up on Forretress, and can keep its sash intact thanks to Forre's Rapid Spin.

Priority users to pick off any Pokemon that may attempt to set up on Forretress, after Explosion leaves it weakened. Scizor, Mamoswine, Weavile, and Breloom are the best priority users in OU, and can pick off most offensive Pokemon with the help of Forry's Explosion.

**ginganinja** · May 12th, 2013, 8:34:47 PM

QC Approved 1/3

**PK Gaming** · May 12th, 2013, 8:41:51 PM

QC Approved 2/3

Apr 2nd, 2013, 12:25:29 AM	#1
Harsha Moderator Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 936 Houston, TX Mentor	Forretress (Custap Lead) (QC 2/3) I saw that we were working on the Custap set for Skarmory, so I thought we may as well go ahead and post Forretress's. --- Forretress [SET] name: Custap Lead move 1: Stealth Rock move 2: Spikes / Toxic Spikes move 3: Explosion move 4: Rapid Spin / Gyro Ball item: Custap Berry ability: Sturdy nature: Lax evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def ivs: 18 SpD / 30 Spe [SET COMMENTS] <p>While Forretress if generally seen rocking a defensive set, meant to provide quick entry hazards or Rapid Spin support, it can also function as an ideal lead. For teams that look to gain momentum as early as possible, Forretress can hammer down some early entry hazards to pave the way for a sweep later on. While Forretress does not seem like a very functional lead due to its low Speed, the secret to its success lies in the Custap Berry. With a Custap Berry and Sturdy, Forretress can generally get at least two layers of entry hazards, which is very helpful for most teams when trying to dent the opponent.</p> <p>Stealth Rock is nearly a mandatory entry hazard on any dedicated lead for good reason—Forretress can lay Stealth Rock to ensure that opposing threats such as Volcarona, Salamence, and Dragonite must think twice before entering the battle field. Spikes are generally the preferred second choice because they can get more residual damage on grounded Pokemon, weakening walls for end-game sweeps. However, some prefer Toxic Spikes to cut down the durability of opposing Pokemon—Spikes are generally the better choice in this metagame due to the plethora of Rapid Spin users, Steel-type Pokemon, and Poison-type Pokemon.</p> <p>Explosion comes in handy for when Forretress reaches low health. With a Custap Berry, Explosion will hit the opponent before Forretress takes damage (unless attacked by a priority move). Explosion allows Forretress to spinblock and keep its hazards on the field; additionally, it forces the opponent into an unfavorable matchup once Forretress goes down. Rapid Spin is a good option for Forretress's final moveslot because it allows Forretress to disregard opposing Pokemon that try and stack entry hazards and gives Forretress a free Rapid Spin when Custap Berry activates. Gyro Ball also works in the final slot because it prevents opposing setups and does a bit of damage without having to actually sacrifice Forretress.</p> [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] <p>Forretress's EVs are tailored to... --- - ideal lead because it can get at least two layers of hazards down against most teams (provided they lack lead terrakion) - while it may look outclassed by skarmory due to its lower speed, it has access to explosion, so it can use its custap berry to spinblock and gain momentum against greedy spinners - gyro ball deals damage against faster opponents if you need to do so - evs maximize gyro ball's and explosion's powers - ivs survive rain politoed's scald and give a good chance of allowing custap activation even after a burn - you can fit rapid spin on there if you want, but it's really not that useful since this set is mainly meant to lead - pair it with a pokemon that will keep hazards down (e.g. gengar) - fits on heavy offensive teams looking to get quick spikes and rocks up so they can get to work fast - make sure you get rid of taunt / magic bounce pokemon before you start setting up hazards AC - volt switch for momentum, lets you scout and switch to tyranitar to trap (can use it with max special attack) - toxic __________________ Last edited by Harsha; May 17th, 2013 at 6:54:14 PM. Reason: volt switch

Apr 2nd, 2013, 1:45:08 PM	#3
ThePillsburyDoughBoy Ttar by Doughboy Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 953 Mentor	In my experience in using lead Forretress, I used Volt Switch over Gyro Ball. While Gyro Ball does prevent set up of certain Pokemon, Volt Switch is extremely handy for those Pokemon that decide to Taunt and it allows to get a free switchin. Since Forry is so slow, Volt Switch will practically get a free switchin every time. While Explosion and Volt Switch do nearly the same thing, Volt Switch does it without killing Forry xD. I would refrain from posting a Mental Herb version or maybe mentioning a Mental Herb version. My reasoning behind this is that a Mental Herb Forretress is more inclined to a bulkier lead with Rapid Spin on it, since it is not inclined to get into a low range of health and needs to rely on bulk for 2 layers. Without Custap Berry, Forretress struggles to prevent opposing boosting Pokemon from setting up and acts as a free switchin for a lot of Pokemon, so it needs to sacrifice a moveslot for Explosion to prevent setup. I was struggling to justify Forretress over Azelf, which nearly does the same thing: Comparison Azelf @ Focus Sash Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk) - Stealth Rock - Explosion - Taunt - U-turn -Sets up SR, Prevents hazards up to base 115, Prevents set up, Blocks with Explosion, match-up with U-turn Forretress (M) @ Mental Herb Trait: Sturdy EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk) - Stealth Rock - Explosion - Rapid Spin - Volt Switch -Sets up SR, prevent hazards, Blocks with Explosion, match-up with Volt Switch Forretress (F) @ Mental Herb Trait: Sturdy EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk) - Spikes - Stealth Rock - Rapid Spin - Explosion -Sets up SR, Prevents hazards, Prevents set up, Blocks with Explosion, does not match-up with Volt Switch +gets spikes Forretress (F) @ Mental Herb Trait: Sturdy EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk) - Stealth Rock - Spikes - Explosion - Volt Switch -Sets up SR, Does not prevent hazards, Prevents set up, Blocks with Explosion, match-up with Volt Switch Looking at the first set for Forretress, outside of lead Aerodactyl, I find it hard to justify Forretress over lead Azelf. Now looking at sets 2 and 3 for Forretress, its really hard to stomach the con of only getting a matchup with Explosion or not having the ability to stop opposing entry hazards. Without Spikes lead Forry with Mental Herb IMO is outclassed by Azelf, but with them it is hard to swallow either not stopping opposing entry hazards or no matchup with VSwitch. I also want to make a note that with the given spread, lead custap Forry is also stopped by both Breloom and Amoonguss (yes it outspeeds) because of Spore. edit: ignore block with explosion since forry is so slow whoops __________________ Check Out the 1 vs 1 Metagame: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3483807 Last edited by ThePillsburyDoughBoy; Apr 2nd, 2013 at 3:49:11 PM.

Apr 3rd, 2013, 1:34:33 PM	#4
BKC bringer of torture Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,223 Prague	slash in volt switch, it lets you scout starmie/tentacruel/xatu/espeon and then switch to something like a scarf tar to get rid of them so forret can do his thing. you can run max spatk so it actually does some decent damage. other than that looks good __________________ RYM

Apr 9th, 2013, 3:35:44 PM	#5
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,622 Greece	Forretress should use this spread: 252 Atk / 252 Def with a Naughty nature and 30 Spe IVs. With this spread Forretress has 115 Speed, one point above Gastrodon, which there is no reason to underspeed, as by outspeeding it you can set-up hazards on it even if Sturdy can't be activated and you are not in Custap range. Also i put 30 Spe IVs to underspeed any Forretress that doesn't use a -Speed nature and 0 IVs in Speed, as underspeeding it means that you get the advantageous match-up with Volt Switch (i don't know if this is acceptable so if it isn't ingore me and just use 31 Speed IVs). I maxed defense because even with zero defense investment and 0 Def IVs Forretress is still fairly physically bulky and was almost never brought to Custap Range by a single physical attack, making the physical bulk loss uneeded. With Max Def you can survive longer against physical threats and even revenge kill more stuff with Explosion if you happen to be alive at mid or late-game (for example against an Outraging dragon). __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check!

Apr 28th, 2013, 9:19:19 AM	#7
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,622 Greece	Yeah i kinda agree with Lavos. Slashing Rapid Spin after Gyro Ball seems as the better option to me, and Volt Switch goes to AC. Harsha are you still working on this or you want us to reassign it? __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check!

Apr 9th, 2013, 11:33:32 PM	#6
Lavos Spawn our state of zen Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 2,167 Mentor	in my experience volt switch kinda blows on the custap set, why do you want to switch out as a hazard setting lead? doesn't really make sense to me, i get that there are certain instances where you might use it but usually all i do is get a couple layers up and then boom or gyro whatever. volt switch is way too situational to be slashed. i also tried out mono normal attacker with sr, spikes, spin, and boom, and it actually worked pretty well because then i could handle stuff like skarmory 1v1 and boom when my custap activated. of course then you can't hit gengar or jellicent, but the former is too scared of gyro ball to do anything and jellicent counters this set anyways (i guess that's the reason you would have volt switch). so yeah i'd remove volt switch, bkc sucks. ac seems to me like it would be the right place for it.

Apr 28th, 2013, 7:34:57 PM	#8
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,250 GONER	ok Pocket asked me to comment on this sooooo First off let's talk about the EV spread: I hate lowering stats without a specific purpose. It's just wasteful if you're not lowering for specific reasons. So I'd think we'd want to run calculations and see which attacks it's worth lowering your IVs for. Last thing you want is to miss a Custap activation on a resisted attack because your Special Defense was too low and you took ~60% when you would've only been 3HKOed before, etc. Having lowered defenses is probably beneficial for this set in a lot of situations, but let's have some precision about it. Now, I'm not going to run the move calcs myself because I'm lazy and not on QC. Sorry! But they probably should be run by someone. Secondly, Forretress needs to be doing the things that distinguish it from Custap Skarmory. Toxic Spikes (Ctrl + F "Toxic Spikes". No results found...) Explosion Rapid Spin and to a lesser extent Gyro Ball Volt Switch So taking these into consideration: move 1: Stealth Rock move 2: Spikes / Toxic Spikes move 3: Explosion move 4: Rapid Spin / Gyro Ball AC: Volt Switch / Toxic Is how I would do it. __________________

Apr 28th, 2013, 7:52:46 PM	#9
Lavos Spawn our state of zen Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 2,167 Mentor	i second that set, though i do feel that tspikes is borderline ac material since they're useless vs sun and any other sort of team with a poison type (tentacruel and amoonguss come readily to mind) plus most teams that will want to be running such a set, namely hyper-offensive teams, won't appreciate the slow damage that poison/toxic racks up on the opponent as much as they would some quick damage from spikes...in most cases. i guess it's entirely situational but i would never use tspikes on the lead set is all. i'll leave it up to the rest of qc

Apr 28th, 2013, 9:12:50 PM	#10
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,622 Greece	The set definitely needs some Def EVs, as well as max HP and Def IVs, as i already said. For example, with 0 Def and 0 HP IVs and even with 31 Def and 31 HP IVs, lead Terrakion always 2HKOes with Close Combat (99.61% of the time when using 31 Def and HP IVs) without activating Custap Berry. To avoid the 2HKO 236 Def EVs are needed, as well as 31 HP and Def IVs. - 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 236 Def Forretress: 123-145 (42.26 - 49.82%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Offensive Pivot Landorus-T has a small chance (9.77%) to 2HKO 31 HP and Def IVs Forretress with EQ and 56 Def EVs are needed to avoid the 2HKO. Forretress needs 96 HP and 252 Def EVs with a neutral Defense nature to avoid the 2HKO from Garchomp's LO EQ, or 244 Def EVs with a +Def nature. Going with an Lax nature and 244 Def EVs seems to be the best option to avoid giving Forretres uneeded special bulk. Moving on, Forretress needs 2 SpD IVs or less (assuming 31 HP IVs) to make sure that defensive Politoed's Scald will always bring Forretress to Custap Berry range: - 0 SpA Politoed Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Forretress in rain: 217-256 (74.57 - 87.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Finally, with 0 SpD IVs and a -SpD nature, Bulky Attacker Rotom-W has a small chance to bring Forretress into Custap Berry range with Volt Switch. So from all those calcs against of common leads, we can deduce that the best EV and IV spread is this: EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def with a Lax nature IVs: 31 HP / 31 Def / 0 SpD / 31 Spe (to outspeed Gastrodon, Slowbro, and other slowpokes if Forretress happens to be alive later in the game. However if using Gyro Ball going with 0 Spe IVs and a Relaxed nature is perfectly fine as well) __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check!

Apr 29th, 2013, 2:38:32 AM	#12
Pocket Bakuman ;< Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,171 Bergenfield	Thanks for the calcs, alexwolf & Tobes! I think we should go with Tobes's IV & EV spread. I understand that 0 SpD has a 25% chance for Rotom-W's Volt Switch to bring Forry into Custap range, but it's less reliable than the 100% chance to survive defensive Toed's Scald (barring a Scald crit burn). __________________ Dark Horse Project: Conquer the Ladder! \| Word of Wisdom for Trainers \| Smogon Doubles: Let's Make It Official!

Apr 29th, 2013, 3:19:52 AM	#13
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,250 GONER	Actually now that I think about it I made a mistake; instead it should probably be an 18 SpD IV. 219-258 (75 - 88.35%) The purpose of these optimizations is to maximize our chances of successfully pulling off a Custap activation. So I made a mistake in erring on the side of the guaranteed Scald survival, since even if we have some room to be killed by Scald's burn we still have a further 70% chance of not being affected. Compare the chance of a failed Custap activation with the previous IV (ignoring crit Scald burn), 12.8%, to the chance with this IV of both being hit into Scald burn OHKO range and being burned by Scald: 2.3%. Much better. So in summary: Lax 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def 18 SpD / 30 Spe __________________

Apr 29th, 2013, 2:38:22 PM	#14
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,622 Greece	Seems good Tobes! __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check! Last edited by alexwolf; Apr 29th, 2013 at 3:37:42 PM.

May 12th, 2013, 8:34:47 PM	#16
ginganinja Delena 4ever Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3,090 In Love	QC Approved 1/3 __________________

May 12th, 2013, 8:41:51 PM	#17
PK Gaming Quiet Thunder God Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,522 Izanagi	QC Approved 2/3 __________________