Keldeo (Expert Belt) [2/3 QC]

[alexwolf]

Good set Shurtugal! It's a shame that now it is going to be popular so you won't be killing unsuspceting Celebi so easily anymore (i know i will play safer with Celebi from now on).

Anyway on to the set. No to Life Orb and no to Calm Mind. If i want to use Calm Mind Keldeo i will use Calm Mind Keldeo, which already has a set. And if i want to use 4 attacks + LO Keldeo i can just use a 4th move over Calm Mind. So instead of slashing LO to this set, which derails from the point of this set (lure and kill kea threats), we can just AC in the Calm Mind set that Keldeo can forfeit Calm Mind for better coverage, pretty much like Mewtwo in Uber.

HP Electric and HP Bug are fine in the last slot. Mention HP Psychic in the AC, as it allows Keldeo to get past Toxicroak, while also hitting Tentacruel, Venusaur, Roserade, and Amoonguss harder than anything else. Rain Dance is fine in AC, as it can be very helpful against sun teams on a weatherless team. It works best in this set than in others because this set has the moveslot for it, and because of the bluffing of a choice set. Say Venusaur comes in to set-up against what he thinks is a choice locked Keldeo on either Secret Sword or Hydro Pump. So it uses Growth while you use Rain Dance and then smack it with Icy Wind / HP Bug, or just switch in to Ferrothorn, Jirachi or whatever, that can easily wall it in Rain.

tl;dr Don't mention Calm Mind and Life Orb anywhere, add HP Psychic to AC, and keep Rain Dance in AC.

[jc104]

I know this is sort of off-topic, but that LO set really is incredibly good, and it seems ridiculous for its best representation on site to be in AC of somewhere. We need to slash it onto either CM or Specs and rename the set.

I'm OK with letting this have its own set. I would like to see HP Bug as primary slash too - that way Keldeo is obviously luring something that is otherwise rather hard to get rid of, especially if you're running rain and not sand (the other options being weavile, and gothitelle if celebi is slow, neither being remotely as good as keldeo).

[Shurtugal]

Removing CM and LO from the set AC's as I type this. HP Psychic was already added to the AC but its a good thing your supporting it so it voices its effectiveness!

Rain Dance really is good ^^


EDIT:

I'm sure the LO is really good but it sort of ruins the whole purpose of EB so maybe edit the original set to AC? I will keep LO there for now so further discussion is needed.

[alexwolf]

I know this is sort of off-topic, but that LO set really is incredibly good, and it seems ridiculous for its best representation on site to be in AC of somewhere. We need to slash it onto either CM or Specs and rename the set.

jc the CM set is almost identical to the LO + 4 attacks set and it already has a main set online. So depending on the effectiveness of the LO + 4 attacks set we can do any of those things: Slash Life Orb in the Choice Specs set, mention LO on the AC of the Specs set, or mention LO + 4 attacks in the AC of the CM set. I don't want LO mentioned in this set because this set should be used as a lure for certain Pokemon, and not as a powerfull wallbreaker that the opponent will try beating by switching around. Opinions?

[Shurtugal]

I'm agreeing. This set's main job is to lure, and Life Orb ruins the bluff. It's a completely different set.

(The faster I get the QC checks the faster I can write up the full analysis!)

[jc104]

Yes, I'm agreeing with you! I just want to make sure that, you know, we actually go ahead and slash it on one of the other sets, because I know we'll forget about it.

[Princess Bri]

I personally think that we should slash Life Orb on the Specs set and name it 4 Attacks or something.. And since you seem so giddy to write this..


QC Approved 1/3

[alexwolf]

New stamp incoming...



QC Approved (2/3)

[Shurtugal]

I'm giddy to write this since I'm hard pressed on the weekdays :x

One more? ^^

[AccidentalGreed]

Oh, no, just write it, and one of us will do the final check. It's how the new system works.

Now go write it!

[alexwolf]

I forgot a few things...

Remove the LO mention if we weren't clear, and definitely mention partners that appreciate Celebi gone, such as Agility Thundurus-T, Breloom, and SubDD Gyarados (SubDD Gyarados is walled by Perish Song Celebi that have a teammate to take Bounces).

Oh and AG your new stamp is awesome :D

[Shurtugal]

Alexwolf, I'll mention those partners. However, I'm a little skeptical about Thundurus-T. Can't Thundurus-T easily set up on Celebi, making it a good partner to non-HP [Bug] Keldeo?

*ok I'm writing now*

[alexwolf]

SpD Celebi walls Agility Thundurus-T and can either let him die from LO while Recovering, or 2HKO it with Psychic after SR.

[shrang]

For aesthetic and programming purposes, fix the set into this:

Correction attempt fail, AG. It's SpA, not SAtk. God get your game together mate. So yeah, Shurtugal, please change it to 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe.

Anyway, onto the set, and I'm sorry if I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here. On one hand, I'm not a fan of "Expert Belt bluff" sets that focus mostly on the surprise getting analyses, because 1) by having the set on-site, you just killed the surprise, 2) surprise sets need to have uses outside of the surprise itself, and 3) is Expert Belt really the best item? For (3), I personally don't think Keldeo's super effective coverage is really that great, since what you'll mostly be doing is just spamming Hydro Pump. If that's the case, Mystic Water / Splash Plate might be the better option for the item, unless Expert Belt gives you some important KOes (which I'd like to see damage calcs for!)

On the other hand, this set plays quite differently from the rest of Keldeo's sets and is good enough as a stand alone set to warrant an analysis on its own. I'm not rejecting this in any way, but I'd like you to keep my concerns of "Expert Belt bluff" sets in mind when you're writing this set and others.

[Princess Bri]

Ebelt guarantees ko on loom after rocks and 2hko on lati@s on the switch. Before playing devil's advocate, it would be wise to actually read the thread instead of asking questions answered in it which halt further discussion. Mixnite is on site and it is still surprising, for example. Lastly, ebelt is just for nailing specific (and few) counters so it doesn't need good coverage.

[Shurtugal]

Shrang,

Calcs

---

252 SpAtk Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Celebi: 44.57% - 52.79% (2-3 hits to KO with Stealth Rocks)
252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Celebi: 106.74% - 126.69% (Guaranteed OHKO)

252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Psychic vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Toxicroak: 168.18% - 199.35% (Guaranteed OHKO)

252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs 252 HP/32 SpDef Jellicent: 42.08% - 49.75% (2-3 hits to KO after SR)

252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs 252 HP/32 SpDef Jellicent: 42.08% - 49.75% (2 hits to KO after SR and Spikes)

252 SpAtk Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Latias: 48.5% - 57.14% (2 hits to KO: assuming you go for the 3HKO Icy Wind you can beat Latias)

I can pull out more but I'm sure you see the point. Scarf / Specs can't afford the extra coverage and the CM set can't lure them out like EB can. This set ensures that Keldeo has quite a few honest counters now ~

Ok back to writing ^^


EDIT:

Finished and OP is updated.

[shrang]

I have no doubts that this is a good set. My main concerns were with Expert Belt sets in general, and this is what I'd like to see addressed in the set. MixNite's main purpose is to wall break, not as a surprise set. My point was to not focus too much on the surprise value of the set, instead look at the set more on a whole. As for the damage calculations, I'm not asking this as evidence of the set's effectiveness, but it's something I want to see in your analysis as information that's important for the reader.

[Shurtugal]

Ok I will edit Op to reflect more. Also, last year most people thought that putting SubSD Rock Gem Terrakion on-site would ruin its surprise factor. They were wrong. It's still a surprise today, but I see your just pointing out to explain that this set is baiting most of its usual counters (just like RG Terrakion).

[BKC]

shrang by the same logic, youre saying that dpp mixtar's surprise value is ruined because its on-site, which isnt true because even if it doesnt get a surprise ko [ie it pursuits rotom and the skarm switchin jumps right back out to check for fire blast], its still a tyranitar, one of the most dangerous pokemon in the game, that can kill one of its regular counters and therefore forces your opponent to find a different way to check it. when i tested this set out, i found the same holds true for keldeo. if by some miracle you dont fool your opponent into thinking youre choiced, this set crushes some of its most common counters, which means that even if your opponent doesnt fall for the bluff, theyre still going to have a hard time against it.

[fire r a g e]

Doesn't it hinder Fire moves if you use it on a weatherless team?

[Shurtugal]

Not really since Rain Dance only last 5 turns, and it won't at all if you don't use Rain Dance.

[fire r a g e]

Ok, thanks. This will help my team out a lot. :)

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat BKC

shrang by the same logic, youre saying that dpp mixtar's surprise value is ruined because its on-site, which isnt true because even if it doesnt get a surprise ko [ie it pursuits rotom and the skarm switchin jumps right back out to check for fire blast], its still a tyranitar, one of the most dangerous pokemon in the game, that can kill one of its regular counters and therefore forces your opponent to find a different way to check it. when i tested this set out, i found the same holds true for keldeo. if by some miracle you dont fool your opponent into thinking youre choiced, this set crushes some of its most common counters, which means that even if your opponent doesnt fall for the bluff, theyre still going to have a hard time against it.

Yes, and this is exactly what I want addressed at a higher priority. What I want is for this analysis to reflect that this is an all-out attacking Keldeo, not the fact that it nabs surprise kills. I don't want this analysis to focus on "Oh hey look this Keldeo lures out counters and nabs surprise kills" (important, but I don't want any more than a couple of sentences for that at most), instead I want this analysis to reflect that "this is an all out attacking Keldeo with good coverage, that can nab surprise kills because it bluffs a Choice item".

[Cherub Agent]

Most of its usual counters in Celebi, Tentacruel, Latias, Latios, Toxicroak, Jellicent, and Amoonguss can easily be flattened with the aid of its new Expert Belt

Ehh, I wouldn't neccessarily say this tbh. While this is true for most of the Pokemon listed, generally in Set Comments I wouldn't mention Pokemon that can be killed only by moves that are in Additional Comments (Tentacruel and Toxicroak especially, and you make it seem as though Jellicent is flattened by HP Electric when it really is not :/

[Pokemasta77]

I second the HP Ice over Icy Wind. I just do not see the point in having Icy Wind. Just because it slows the opponent down does not give it a good reason to use it instead of HP Ice imo. You may want to mention Surf as a substitute over Hydro Pump if someone is willing to drop a little power for increased accuracy. Just an idea.