np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

[toshimelonhead]

Here is my problem with banning Deoxys-D: How many players really use it to its full potential? Ideally, Deoxys-D can get 3+ hazards if played correctly, but in my experience this is very rare. Most of the time Tyranitar / Tenta / Starmie come in and take care of the hazards, or there is something like CB Scizor waiting in the wings. It's almost as if Deoxys-D needs Psycho Boost / Superpower / HP Fire / Thunderbolt / Spikes / Stealth Rock / Recover / Magic Coat to do everything it wants to do. While Deoxys-D doesn't die to anything, and nothing can set up on it, it has to choose between walling everything or risk getting Pursuited. Unlike other suspects (Genesect), Deo-D can't do everything at once, and while on paper it might be uber, I still haven't seen it used to its full potential for me to vote uber.

[Tacit]

I can't say that Deoxys-D is broken, as whenever I play against it I usually kill it with it getting only rocks. It sometimes gets an extra layer of spikes if I'm unlucky.

I almost always lead against it with Garchomp and go right for a SD. EQ has a 50% chance to OHKO standard set at +2, and always gets the offensive set designed to counter starmie. The screen set is the biggest problem to this, as if it sets up reflect, it is guaranteed to get two layers up immediately after (assuming I SD again and then 2ko it). It is also fun to encore Deoxys into SR after it sets that up with politoed, this isn't a very good method however as it will come back later and probably get up some spikes.

Despite it not being overly problematic, seeing it in team preview does manage to get me worried every time. If I were to vote I would likely vote abstain.

[Soul Fly]

Originally Posted by Fat Pombo

Deo-D still broken, IMO. But i dont think it is viable on stall. Show me a good stall team with Deo-D. I dare you.

I don't think, I myself personally can make a very good stall team. (as I said it's not my style), but if you lurk around the SPL and the irc long enough you'd find many such teams. Especially in tournament play, where the pool of viable deo-D counters that one-shot it are even lower, as gimmicks are really rare unless for a specific niche.


But sadly this is a very competitive area of play, so I can't post anything like RMTs to back myself up. People rarely (if never) reveal their teams, and especially not in RMT forums where they're bound to be c/p'ed.

If anyone has tournament stats or something (i have no idea if records like these exist), you could actually look up Deo-D team mates or something. I dunno you'll need to talk to players who're active on the tournaments circuit.

[Conflict]

No1 is using Rainstall with Deo-D anymore. There was once a decent Deo-D Rainstallteam but Deo-D didnt help much after people invented SDTerrakion etc.

So far i cant find many differences between the suspect and the standard ladder. On both ladders you fight the same teams just that on the suspect ladder you dont see Deo-D Offense anymore. So we kinda just wiped an entire playstyle out for no apparent reason.

Deo-D was never a problem so far for me neither on the Ladder or in tournament matches (i.e. OST#9). Deo-D doesnt sweep you, it doesnt set you up to 100% win because hazards can be prevented or spun later and it needs support to protect those hazards. Deo-D is good and probably the best offensive Spiker but its not broken.

I am often able to prevent Deo-D from getting 2-3 Layers + SR up - usually it just gets SR and maybe 1 Layer Spikes. Amother point that proves that Deo-D isnt broken is the fact that i can still win even if Deo-D gets full hazards down. 3 Layers of Spikes + SR =/= auto-win, it just makes things easier and if you use the time Deo-D uses to setup Hazards effectiviely you can probably sweep or at least kill some member of the opposing team.

If you have Thund-T or Volc out vs Deo-D, Deo-D cant safely lay Hazards down for example because it risks you setting up. Therefore it has to Taunt/Twave/whatever and cant do its primary job (providing Hazards). And you all are talking about how LO max SpA Thunder Deo-D beats Starmie/Tentacruel. So what, i ask? If i lead with SubVolcarona and your Deo-D decides to TWave i get an immediate advantage. Every Mon can run something to prevent certain Counters to beat em. If your Terrakion gets often killed by Scizor you can run Babiri Berry and if you want to kill Gliscor LO-HP[Ice] does a good job at that. You can mold every Mon in something that has a chance to beat its counters but this approach isnt feasible for this discussion. Why? Because these 'niche'-sets are practically worthless if your opponent doesnt use these particular Mons but other means to stop Deo-D.

BTW in SPL or OST#9 i have seen people use Deo-D rarely. Maybe that is an indicator that it isnt broken if even not the majority of the Tournament-Battlers is using it.

tl;dr: Deo-D is a really good mon but in no way or shape broken.

[Princess Bri]

Despite your inconclusive logic, I'll attempt to respond to some of your points.

So far i cant find many differences between the suspect and the standard ladder. On both ladders you fight the same teams just that on the suspect ladder you dont see Deo-D Offense anymore. So we kinda just wiped an entire playstyle out for no apparent reason.

That is because Deoxys-D is only used on HO teams with a spinblocker. Since Deoxys-D is testbanned for the suspect, then obviously you're just going to run into your standard Sand Balance and Rain Offense you found in the other ladder.

Deo-D was never a problem so far for me neither on the Ladder or in tournament matches (i.e. OST#9). Deo-D doesnt sweep you, it doesnt set you up to 100% win because hazards can be prevented or spun later and it needs support to protect those hazards. Deo-D is good and probably the best offensive Spiker but its not broken.

I've always found Deoxys-D somewhat troublesome in both the ladder and in tournament matches. What do you use to counter it? As of late I've been using Forretress, but even then I am often scared to lead it versus Deoxys-D since if it has Hidden Power Fire I lose a Pokemon and it gets hazards still. I even have used Xatu to an extent; however, many players have reverted to using Skill Swap which makes them get hazards! "Scouting" Deoxys-D isn't as easy as it is for offensive Pokemon because if you attempt to "scout" and it doesn't have the move that could kill your counter, it just gets up free hazards. On good Deoxys-D teams you don't have much time to spin. The team is based on offensive synergy and if you're against a competent player you will not have time to spin most of the time. E.g. they sack they have Choice Scarf / Focus Sash Gengar to OHKO Starmie + Tentacruel with Shadow Ball and Destiny Bond respectively. Obviously Deoxys-D isn't broken because of its offensive sweeping abilities, but because of its supporting abilities. That is such a redundant point. Read here as to why I explained Deoxys-D is broken despite the support it often requires.

I am often able to prevent Deo-D from getting 2-3 Layers + SR up - usually it just gets SR and maybe 1 Layer Spikes. Amother point that proves that Deo-D isnt broken is the fact that i can still win even if Deo-D gets full hazards down. 3 Layers of Spikes + SR =/= auto-win, it just makes things easier and if you use the time Deo-D uses to setup Hazards effectiviely you can probably sweep or at least kill some member of the opposing team.

The common average is usually Stealth Rock + Spikes. I am rather surprised that you still win against Stealth Rock + 3 layers of Spikes; however. I would like to see some logs of this. Typically if you get so many hazards down, the opponent is going to be at such a disadvantaged state that they have almost no shot at winning. As I said earlier:

I have seen people in this thread scoff at the idea of Spikes making Deoxys-D broken, and I am astounded at how Spikes are underestimated. Assume that a team has 4 Pokemon weak to Spikes and all 6 neutral to Stealth Rock. Now assume that Deoxys-D sets up Stealth Rock + one layer of Spikes, something that typically happens in most matches. Although this is obvious Theorymon, I just want people to see the damage of the support Deoxys-D provides. If Stealth Rock + 1 layer of Spikes is in play with the afforementioned Stealth Rock and Spikes-weak Pokemon on your team, that is 125% damage if each Pokemon just switches in once. In more stall-based games, that number could double or even triple. If you're weak to Stealth Rock then the number will obviously go up as well. Keep in mind that 24% can be added if you set another layer of Spikes. In perspective, that is a little over 1/5 of your team's overall HP lost from just one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock. Deoxys-D sets these hazards exceptionally well without any counters.

If you have Thund-T or Volc out vs Deo-D, Deo-D cant safely lay Hazards down for example because it risks you setting up. Therefore it has to Taunt/Twave/whatever and cant do its primary job (providing Hazards). And you all are talking about how LO max SpA Thunder Deo-D beats Starmie/Tentacruel. So what, i ask? If i lead with SubVolcarona and your Deo-D decides to TWave i get an immediate advantage. Every Mon can run something to prevent certain Counters to beat em. If your Terrakion gets often killed by Scizor you can run Babiri Berry and if you want to kill Gliscor LO-HP[Ice] does a good job at that. You can mold every Mon in something that has a chance to beat its counters but this approach isnt feasible for this discussion. Why? Because these 'niche'-sets are practically worthless if your opponent doesnt use these particular Mons but other means to stop Deo-D.

First of all, you assume Deoxys-D is going to always lead. If your Deoxys-D "lead" is as obvious as Volcarona or Thundurus-T then I could easily lead with a Terrakion and you will be automatically at a disadvantaged gamestate. Thundurus-T, if the Modest version, is slower and I can easily Taunt as you boost. The same applies to Substitute Volcarona, even if it is faster. The common Red Card version makes Volcarona cringe since I get a free Stealth Rock while you lose your Substitute after you attack (assuming turn 1 Taunt) and I could possibly get Spikes as well. Volcarona isn't going to want to not Substitute either since I could possibly have Thunder Wave as well. Terrakion with Hidden Power Ice is gimmicky and weak and we all know this. If it holds Babiri Berry you are easily revenge-killed by common Scarfers and you're still easily OHKO'd by common attackers that are faster. Deoxys-D cannot be OHKO'd by almost anything, which is why it is so deadly. If these "niche" sets are worthless versus your team, you still are unsure what moves it actually has. It has so many possible options that you can't really do much against it without being fearful of getting Hazards set up on you.

BTW in SPL or OST#9 i have seen people use Deo-D rarely. Maybe that is an indicator that it isnt broken if even not the majority of the Tournament-Battlers is using it.

Usage doesn't indicate whether a Pokemon is broken or not really.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

As of late I've been using Forretress, but even then I am often scared to lead it versus Deoxys-D since if it has Hidden Power Fire I lose a Pokemon and it gets hazards still. I even have used Xatu to an extent; however, many players have reverted to using Skill Swap which makes them get hazards! "Scouting" Deoxys-D isn't as easy as it is for offensive Pokemon because if you attempt to "scout" and it doesn't have the move that could kill your counter, it just gets up free hazards.

in addition to that difficulty of playing against deo-d when you don't know its full moveset, in high level games there's even an element of bluffing and scouting involved that most players never experience. i was having a game on the po ladder under an alt just a few days ago, and i was using deo-d offense. i ran up against a sun bulky offense team that was using forretress to spin. my opponent was high ranked on the ladder, so i knew he would scout for the hp fire that my deo-d was carrying. the scenario went like this:

turn 1: deo-d out against ninetales. i get rocks up as he switches into forry.
turn 2: deo-d out against forry. i spike up as he switches back to ninetales scouting for hp fire.
turn 3: deo-d out against ninetales. seeing no hp fire, he goes back into forry as i spike up again. his sturdy is now broken.
turn 4: deo-d out against forry. i reveal my fire gem boosted hp fire, ohkoing his forry and preserving my three layers of hazards.

so even taking into account bri's point about scouting deo-d's set, sometimes you don't know if you scouted the opponent out and now you know they can't hurt you, or if they were just bluffing and you're actually about to receive a nasty surprise. it's a real pain in the ass to play around.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

in addition to that difficulty of playing against deo-d when you don't know its full moveset, in high level games there's even an element of bluffing and scouting involved that most players never experience. i was having a game on the po ladder under an alt just a few days ago, and i was using deo-d offense. i ran up against a sun bulky offense team that was using forretress to spin. my opponent was high ranked on the ladder, so i knew he would scout for the hp fire that my deo-d was carrying. the scenario went like this:

turn 1: deo-d out against ninetales. i get rocks up as he switches into forry.
turn 2: deo-d out against forry. i spike up as he switches back to ninetales scouting for hp fire.
turn 3: deo-d out against ninetales. seeing no hp fire, he goes back into forry as i spike up again. his sturdy is now broken.
turn 4: deo-d out against forry. i reveal my fire gem boosted hp fire, ohkoing his forry and preserving my three layers of hazards.

so even taking into account bri's point about scouting deo-d's set, sometimes you don't know if you scouted the opponent out and now you know they can't hurt you, or if they were just bluffing and you're actually about to receive a nasty surprise. it's a real pain in the ass to play around.

What? Who would do that? Switch to forretress for no reason and then switch back. That guy just gave you free turns. If anyone make that level of misplay they probably will lose anyway.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

What? Who would do that? Switch to forretress for no reason and then switch back. That guy just gave you free turns. If anyone make that level of misplay they probably will lose anyway.

he led ninetales to get up sun, switched to forretress to bait my hp fire and spin if i didn't have it, went back to ninetales to scout as i didn't take his bait, then assumed i lacked hp fire and thought forry could spin freely, so i revealed it then and he got stuck at a 6-5 disadvantage with 3 layers up on his side of the field. it wasn't a misplay on either side, he made the high level play by scouting and i made the higher level play by predicting the switch and bluffing no hp fire. i explained this in the post above, go read that if you're still confused.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

he led ninetales to get up sun, switched to forretress to bait my hp fire and spin if i didn't have it, went back to ninetales to scout as i didn't take his bait, then assumed i lacked hp fire and thought forry could spin freely, so i revealed it then and he got stuck at a 6-5 disadvantage with 3 layers up on his side of the field. it wasn't a misplay on either side, he made the high level play by scouting and i made the higher level play by predicting the switch and bluffing no hp fire. i explained this in the post above, go read that if you're still confused.

He switched to forretress to bait hp fire. Thats the part that confuses me.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

He switched to forretress to bait hp fire. Thats the part that confuses me.

yeah he wanted to scout for it to see if i had it, his thought process was that if i had hp fire i'd use it immediately, so he switched to forry and then doubled back into ninetales to check for that in order to see if he was free to spin or if he would have to try a different way to get around deo-d.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

yeah he wanted to scout for it to see if i had it, his thought process was that if i had hp fire i'd use it immediately, so he switched to forry and then doubled back into ninetales to check for that in order to see if he was free to spin or if he would have to try a different way to get around deo-d.

Yes but if you had used it you would ko the forretress. Why didnt he switch to something that resisted fire?

[Agent Gibbs]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

Yes but if you had used it you would ko the forretress. Why didnt he switch to something that resisted fire?

Dude, he switched back to Ninetales. That was the point. If he could successfully bait HP Fire, then Ninetales would have taken the hit very well, and then he would know that it was not safe to spin on Deoxys-D with Forretress. However, the HP Fire never came, and so he assumed it was safe to spin. Lavos bluffed him, his opponent fell for it, and Forretress died to HP Fire the next time it came in.

[AJC]

yeah but high level plays should be not allowed as examples because they can easily go both ways if both players are extremely good, prediction is terrible argument for something unless something requires it to be effective.

and to be quiet frank the game can use less prediction a prediction heavy game is not a very fun one. a game of all risk and little to no reward isn't very rewarding or desirable

[pharaohcalvin]

Originally Posted by Fat AJC

yeah but high level plays should be not allowed as examples because they can easily go both ways if both players are extremely good, prediction is terrible argument for something unless something requires it to be effective.

and to be quiet frank the game can use less prediction a prediction heavy game is not a very fun one. a game of all risk and little to no reward isn't very rewarding or desirable

I agree that prediction is not the best example...but high level of plays should not be allowed? What? Shouldn't we only be using high level of play as examples? I mean we are a competitive site. If the high levels of play show something is broken then it is broken. If it doesn't show something is broken then it is not. But it is what we should base our choices after.

[Princess Bri]

Originally Posted by Fat AJC

and to be quiet frank the game can use less prediction a prediction heavy game is not a very fun one. a game of all risk and little to no reward isn't very rewarding or desirable

I'm sorry, but have you played the BW2 OU Metagame recently? Several people have mentioned the lack of player interaction in the metagame. Runner up of the BW2 OU Secret Santa Tournament, kd24, clearly states his views here. There is no real prediction in BW2 besides the occasional coin flip, so I don't see how the metagame needs less of it. To be honest, it needs more.

[GatoDelFuego]

I think the point of all this is that people have to realize that prediction can't be used to scout out or beat deoxys, because prediction goes both ways. You can't count on being able to outplay a deoxys. It has to be looked at in a vacuum, based on what can beat it regardless of prediction.

[Meru]

My biggest issue with Deo-D I feel like has only been lightly touched on in this thread. You guys keep talking about how SR+Spikes up isn't that powerful, but that's not all that Deo-D does. When it has the right coverage move, you can start the game 5-6 and still have to deal with Deoxys-D. Not only that, but the pokemon that you lost to Deoxys-D could easily create a big hole in your team that gives one pokemon an easy sweep.

For example, if you lose your Tentacruel to that Psycho Boost Deoxys-D, then you're playing 5-6, with Deoxys-D in your face, and you lose your Lucario/Infernape/Keldeo/Whatever counter.

Not totally sure if Tentacruel counters those things, just trying to get the point across so don't bash on that.

[Myzozoa]

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Took me a while to find a team that worked, but once I tried Ferrothorn, the game was as easy as when I could use Deoxys-D. The difference between Deo-D and Ferro is that Deo-D gets hazards turn 1 and Ferro gets them turn 6, or whenever the first time it comes in on a resisted attack is. Ferro also resists water and can actually beat spinners by itself, but we should definitely ban Deoxys-D merely because it fits onto offensive teams better and offense takes no skill #yoloswag.

[yee]

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

I'm sorry, but have you played the BW2 OU Metagame recently? Several people have mentioned the lack of player interaction in the metagame. Runner up of the BW2 OU Secret Santa Tournament, kd24, clearly states his views here. There is no real prediction in BW2 besides the occasional coin flip, so I don't see how the metagame needs less of it. To be honest, it needs more.

Well I would say you can argue for both sides. Obviously vs. Deo-D teams its a pure guessing game in the first 3 turns or so then just formula the rest of the way- as Myzozoa explained to me once even the double switches in the matches are formulaic because the risk-reward lets it be. If it's a sun vs rain weather war it's also gonna be formulaic the entire game. However, a classic stall vs stall game can still just be SR vs SR first turn then the ocean of possibilities from there. Of course I'm not talking about the Rain stall race to Scald burn Tentacruel game. Besides coin flips there's also really just balance vs balance games in Sand vs Sand or occasionally Rain vs Rain which I guess occasionally resemble pokemon games.

Mash em all together leaving anything on the BW table up for both players however, I don't see how anyone could argue as a whole that in game playing skill / planning is that big of a factor in getting wins.

[Lord of Bays]

What does Deoxys-D care about beating spin BLOCKERS?

[Novaray]

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Just play some mega offensive without a Deo-D. Actually quite enjoyed playing the ladder as I didn't have some ridic Stealth Rock and 3 layer Spikes up my ass every game. Also some team with 4+ Focus Sash is fun with less hazards to have some fun on ladder

[Meru]

Also I just wanted to post that for the first time in many months, I had my first sand stall vs. sand stall match on the suspect ladder. Shows how far we've come since the Tornadus-T/Genesect/etc metas

[Kidogo]

Man I always go on tilts near the end of suspect laddering, this definitely takes way too long:

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[MX42]

Hey guys, I did some research, and Roserade has the same speed and spikes, fitting the role of a fast spiker as well. True, she may have a few more weaknesses, and she may not get Stealth Rock, but she is a decent substitude in my eyes. Maybe people will use her instead...

[Soul Fly]

Originally Posted by Fat MX42

Hey guys, I did some research, and Roserade has the same speed and spikes, fitting the role of a fast spiker as well. True, she may have a few more weaknesses, and she may not get Stealth Rock, but she is a decent substitude in my eyes. Maybe people will use her instead...

Not Really. Shabby Defences. Things like Skarmory Sit in front of her all day. Get 3 layers up and Brave Bird it to death. Heatran just treats it like a ragdoll. Long story short, anything with 'steel' as a typing is her bane in OU. Same Story from Sun Teams.