Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

[Haruno]

Originally Posted by Fat Anikrahman1995

I spoke with Hack He Must about Arceus-Dragon. He told me that when he posted the set, he did not know that the team would be weatherless; he was planning on using it on either Rain or Sun. I am agreeing with Donkey here - Arceus-Dragon is terrible. I used a team of Deoxys-S, Ditto and 4 Dragons. In this team, Arceus-Dragon was the most useless member. Maybe we should redo our vote and pick the Substitute+Nasty Plot Darkrai that I nominated.

It's still relatively useless even in sun/rain since you're running mono attacking arceus.

[Donkey]

Originally Posted by Fat Faint

First off let me start of by saying there are some god awful mons listed. Ludicolo? Power Herb KB? CM Lugia? Scarf Rayquaza? All of these mons require TREMENDOUS team support (nor should ever be used), and yes I understand that's what this thread is about. I also understand that we are expected to use a "gimmick" mon. But then comes the question of Smash Pass Dialga. Why is it even listed? Did we not mention that all votes towards it will not count?

If so, why are users such as 'Hack We Must' voting for it? You do realize you can see the results of the poll by clicking on the number, right? So after he realized CM Arceus-Dragon was not a good candidate he voted Dialga?

Also, for the record, if I was still able to vote my choice would be BU Dialga or Scarf Salamence.

Smash pass Dialga is clearly both competitive and innovative


also i would vote for bu dialga

[Anikrahman1995]

Smashpass was more common on PO. Hardly anyone on PS! uses Smashpass. Why do people have a negative feeling towards Smashpass? It is not a playstyle with which one can win consistently.

Maybe Hack He Must chose Smash recipient Dialga because he thought that that would be the best pick?(he plays on PS! and has seldom played against a smashpass team...so maybe he thought that it was a strong choice?) Who wouldn't want to sweep the opponent's team with a +2 Dialga?

[Haruno]

Originally Posted by Fat Anikrahman1995

Smashpass was more common on PO. Hardly anyone on PS! uses Smashpass. Why do people have a negative feeling towards Smashpass? It is not a playstyle with which one can win consistently.

Maybe Hack He Must chose Smash recipient Dialga because he thought that that would be the best pick?(he plays on PS! and has seldom played against a smashpass team...so maybe he thought that it was a strong choice?) Who wouldn't want to sweep the opponent's team with a +2 Dialga?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...6&postcount=32

[syrim]

BU dialga is terrible.

Latios, SD Groundceus, SubSeed Skymin, Sub Darkrai, and Fightceus are all very viable pokemon that can also be the centerpieces of intersting and yet effective teams. You can plan for these pokemon's counters in innovative ways, but you are basing your creativity around something worthwhile. How we were presented with the option we were to teambuild by the voters is a bit baffling.

[Donkey]

Originally Posted by Fat Haruno

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...6&postcount=32

The great Champion Lance shows his hand in the underworkings of Smogon

[IAmAnHero]

I think the only ones I'd like to see a team built around are Latios or BU Dialga. I don't even care if Bulk Up Dialga is bad because it's a fun thing to use and I find it somewhat amusing.

[syrim]

To quote the great Pokemon Hacker R on the matter of competitive Pokemon team building.

"If you're not using Lugia, you are doing everything wrong. One, you are probably checking Extreme Killer Arceus, which is the normal variant with Swords Dance, Extreme Speed and Recover, you don't need a fourth move, a set I invented, with Will-O-Wisp. Checking something with Will O Wisp is not checking it. It is "not checking it" to quote my good friend. Second, if you are not using Lugia you are probably not having hazards set up all over you. This is bad. Having hazards all on your side of the field means lulling your opponent into a false sense of security. It also means you get to use rapid spin at will, as the move doesn't work unless you have Lugia and three layers on your side of the field. Thirdly, use thunder wave. I invented a thunder wave lugia set, but I can't share it here, because people just haven't played as many ladder games as I have, so they don't get my ideas.

Second, if you are not using Lugia you are probably not having hazards set up all over you. This is bad. Having hazards all on your side of the field means lulling your opponent into a false sense of security. It also means you get to use rapid spin at will, as the move doesn't work unless you have Lugia and three layers on your side of the field. Thirdly, use thunder wave. I invented a thunder wave lugia set, but I can't share it here, because people just haven't played as many ladder games as I have, so they don't get my ideas.nent into a false sense of security. It also means you get to use rapid spin at will, as the move doesn't work unless you have Lugia and three layers on your side of the field. Thirdly, use thunder wave. I invented a thunder wave lugia set, but I can't share it here, because pef you're not using Lugia, you are doing everything wrong. One, you are probably checking Extreme Killer Arceus, which is the normal variant with Swords Dance, Extreme Speed and Recover, you don't need a fourth.


You have Lugia and three layers on your side of the field. Thirdly, use thunder wave. I invented a thunder wave lugia set, but I can't share it here, because people just haven't played as many ladder games as I have, so they don't get my ideas.nent into a false sense of security. It also means you get to use rapid spin at will, as the move doesn't work unless you have Lugia and is "not checking it" to quote my good friend. Second, if you are not using Lugia you are probably not having hazards set up all over you. This is bad. Having hazards all on your side of the field means lulling your opponent into a false sense of security. It also means you get to use rapid spin at will, as the move doesn't work unless you have Lugia and three layers on your side."

[Hack He Must]

Well TBH, Arceus-Dragon isn't anywhere near a great poke. Kinda funny, because it works even worse without weather in your team.

But hell, I didn't promote it, and I didn't even vote for it, because I feel like vote for oneself in this kind of thing would eventually lead to a scenario where everyone votes for their own set, because why would you post a set without the intention that it would win? If my set was THAT bad, then it shouldn't have been voted for. At least it's better than some utter garbage like Dual Screen Arceus, Ludicolo and Power Herb Kyurem-B.

As people like to discuss why I voted for SmashDialga I feel obliged to answer that the way I saw it, as a noobier player, back in the PO days, SmashPass actually worked. This was more or less because I was a really bad player back then, but since no one barely uses the strategy on PS, I felt inclined to give it a try, even though it was controversial.

Mind you, I didn't really get the part about no weather lol, which really straps that strategy further, so that was a stupid mistake on my part. However, bad sets, like the Arceus-Dragon set that won, shouldn't win unless in a system where one vote for every man, unless promoted (something Melee Mewtwo did). These people now claiming the set is garbage was very much able to show up before the voting was finished and giving their criticism (at least I hope they were able to).

I am all for a revote actually.

Edit for Faint: I did vote for Dialga long before the votes did not count, also, I have explained why I would rather not vote for my own set.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Okay guys, let's not completely dismiss the advantages of Dragonceus. Yes, there are advantages to Dragonceus and logical reasons why one would ever want to use it as a stall breaker over Darkceus. There's one that I can think of right off the bat that is pretty big and metagame defining, something that is the most common way to fight off Darkceus for Rain teams; Ferrothorn. the current standard Ferrothorn spread currently runs 48 attack EVs specifically for popping Darkceus's Substitutes with Power Whip. Dragonceus's grass resistant Subs laugh at this only, fearing those Gyro Balls with the measly 8 PP. It's not just Rain, Sun's most common CMCeus counter, Ho-Oh, has a harder time dealing with Dragonceus.

Calcs

---

176+ Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dark in sun: 219-258 (49.32 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dark in sun: 298-352 (67.11 - 79.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

176+ Atk Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dragon: 175-207 (43.2 - 51.11%) -- 4.69% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Dragon: 239-282 (59.01 - 69.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment (Dragon) vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 118-141 (28.43 - 33.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 236 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment (Dragon) vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 178-210 (42.89 - 50.6%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 236 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment (Dragon) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 189-223 (53.54 - 63.17%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

4 SpA Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Judgment (Dark) vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 99-117 (23.85 - 28.19%) -- 22.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 4 SpA Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Judgment (Dark) vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 147-174 (35.42 - 41.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 4 SpA Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Judgment (Dark) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 156-184 (44.19 - 52.12%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Dragonceus will always (or just about) OHKO Tank Ho-Oh if it has already switched into SR once (so an extra 17%) at +1 and scores a clean OHKO on Offensive Ho-Oh at +1 as well. Ho-Oh is also less inclined to spam Sacred Fire on Dragonceus forcing it to use the recoil damaging Brave Bird. (Just in case you didn't lure it out at least once before with SR up) Let's not forget that it is the fastest Dragon type in the tier and you are going to have a hard time bringing your Scarf Zekrom in to revenge it when it has a Substitute up. (It's a whole lot easier to bring Terrakion, one of the three best Uber Scarfers, in on a Darkceus, especially with Justified.) Phazing is going to be a problem for Dragonceus, just like every other mono-attacking Stall Breaker, which is why we will be saving Dragonceus for a last mon stand. (although it is one of the easiest mono-attackers to use earlier thanks to that offensive spread and Dragon STAB) Is it one of the best Pokemon in the tier? Not at all, but it certainly isn't a completely outclassed piece of crap like many are claiming. (Just to remind you guys, we don't have to use Ray to beat weather abusers so we aren't stuck with 3 Dragons. See Scarf Ditto and T-Wave Thundurus as examples.)

Lay off of Hack, please, it's my fault this set was voted in as I was the one stupid enough to stick a last paragraph about who I'm voting for. I'm totally for worthwhile criticism (like Donkey's rant) but let's not fill up this thread with useless "hate" posts after this project has already had to endure the Dialga joke.


In any case, I have no objections to doing a redo. I'd just not like this to be taken lightly and we actually thoroughly consider the options before us.

[jackm]

Alright, I've decided that a redo is in order. I'm going to omit Smashpass Dialga and Dragceus for obvious reasons, as well as Dual Screens Arceus, LO Kyurem-B, and Ludicolo. The first two are because they didn't receive any votes, and Ludicolo because it's clear that Ludicolo requires rain support. duh. As for the other apparently mediocre choices, be intelligent guys. I left them in for the sake of equity.

Now, because I don't know how to take down the poll, we are going to use a voting system similar to that of CAP for this vote and all others succeeding it unless I figure out how to replace the poll. Because of this, post your selection in Bold, along with nothing else bold. Follow these directions or your vote will be dismissed. You are allowed to post justification and comments, but they must not be bold.

The ballot goes as follows:

Power Herb Kyurem-B
Substitute Darkrai
SubSeed Shaymin-S
SD Arceus-Ground
CM Lugia
Latios
BU Dialga
CM Arceus-Fighting
Scarf Rayquaza
Scarf Salamence
SubCM Giratina-O

Lettuce do this right this time, guys. Think hard before you vote, because I will guarantee you that we will not have a re-redo.

[blitzlefan]

Latios

In all honesty, The Ultimate Champion has a point. No disrespect for syrim, but I didn't really see the point of his/her post and how it really contributed to the CCAT.

[Princess Bri]

Scarf Rayquaza

[White symphoni]

Scarf Salamence

This mon is viable and can be used to make a very creative team and especially good on weatherless.Arceus is too valuable for a first pick imo since it'll come in very handy when patching up weaknesses due to no weather.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Originally Posted by Fat syrim

To quote the great Pokemon Hacker R on the matter of competitive Pokemon team building.

"If you're not using Lugia, you are doing everything wrong. One, you are probably checking Extreme Killer Arceus, which is the normal variant with Swords Dance, Extreme Speed and Recover, you don't need a fourth move, a set I invented, with Will-O-Wisp. Checking something with Will O Wisp is not checking it. It is "not checking it" to quote my good friend. Second, if you are not using Lugia you are probably not having hazards set up all over you. This is bad. Having hazards all on your side of the field means lulling your opponent into a false sense of security. It also means you get to use rapid spin at will, as the move doesn't work unless you have Lugia and three layers on your side of the field. Thirdly, use thunder wave. I invented a thunder wave lugia set, but I can't share it here, because people just haven't played as many ladder games as I have, so they don't get my ideas.

Second, if you are not using Lugia you are probably not having hazards set up all over you. This is bad. Having hazards all on your side of the field means lulling your opponent into a false sense of security. It also means you get to use rapid spin at will, as the move doesn't work unless you have Lugia and three layers on your side of the field. Thirdly, use thunder wave. I invented a thunder wave lugia set, but I can't share it here, because people just haven't played as many ladder games as I have, so they don't get my ideas.nent into a false sense of security. It also means you get to use rapid spin at will, as the move doesn't work unless you have Lugia and three layers on your side of the field. Thirdly, use thunder wave. I invented a thunder wave lugia set, but I can't share it here, because pef you're not using Lugia, you are doing everything wrong. One, you are probably checking Extreme Killer Arceus, which is the normal variant with Swords Dance, Extreme Speed and Recover, you don't need a fourth.


You have Lugia and three layers on your side of the field. Thirdly, use thunder wave. I invented a thunder wave lugia set, but I can't share it here, because people just haven't played as many ladder games as I have, so they don't get my ideas.nent into a false sense of security. It also means you get to use rapid spin at will, as the move doesn't work unless you have Lugia and is "not checking it" to quote my good friend. Second, if you are not using Lugia you are probably not having hazards set up all over you. This is bad. Having hazards all on your side of the field means lulling your opponent into a false sense of security. It also means you get to use rapid spin at will, as the move doesn't work unless you have Lugia and three layers on your side."

The funniest thing about this ridiculous post is that it will never be deleted despite its disrespectful content as well as the fact that it contributes absolutely nothing to this thread, while not only will my post definitely be deleted despite the fact that it actually serves a purpose by voting for Power Herb Kyurem-B, but I know that this account of mine will also be banned in almost no time. Maybe it is about time for Smogon's moderators and Administrators to actually start questioning some of their decisions when it comes to deleting people's posts and banning people from this site...

[Poppy]

the funniest thing about your post is that you bothered to set up an avatar, a signature, and a location for an account that is about to banned right........ now

[IAmAnHero]

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

Scarf Rayquaza

Fixed

I think I'm gonna vote for Latios again. Latios is cool and I like to use it.

[Enguarde]

Scarf Salamence

Very fun and can be a surprisingly effective Pokemon to use in Ubers. It will slot in to the no weather boundary nicely.

[puregenius]

Scarf Salamence

i really like how it puts the opponent into a checkmate position
what could check sala might be ko'ed outright next turn due to moxie

[Asterat]

Ultimate champion has a point...

Anyways SD arceus ground because outside of choice scarf/mewtwo/darkrai with no dark void yet/shaymin's and skarmory/arceus grass it can sweep pretty much the whole metagame. Physical walls like groudon can be beaten. pairing it with latias and forretress or something will fix weaknesses

[BKC]

SD Arceus-Ground

[Melee Mewtwo]

If we opt for an offensive Arceus form now, we will be forced into the same playstyle as last time as without a SpDefensive Arceus Latios will eat up whatever defensive backbone we would like to build.

[locoghoul]

If it counts for anything, I would like to see a Latios oriented team.

[JirachiCelebiMew]

SD Arceus-Ground

[Brave Bird spam]

Hmm.. Latios or giratina? I guess I'll go with SubCM giratina-o