Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

[White symphoni]

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Giratina is a very nifty spin blocker however I think it would be better if we worked on our core first.

Latios check/counters include Ferrothorn under rain, Jirachi under rain, Heatran, healthy Pursuit trappers (Grass Knot helps keep TTar at bay but it can still RK), faster bulky Arceus with no weaknesses to his attacks (such as CM Ghostceus), Steelceus (any under rain, CM under neutral weather), CM Rockceus under sandstorm, bulky Excadrill under rain, ScarfSect and, lol, Brozong/Cresselia

So we'll want somebody who shares these checks/counters so that one can weaken them for the other. (seeing as Latios is a wall breaker, it'll mostly be him doing the weakening)

The perfect pokemon would be....Latias!

More seriously speaking ,other strong special attackers like Palkia or CM Mewtwo will be a good partner,and perhaps an offensive CM Arceus later to utilize the holes.

[tehy]

It seems like some form of Rayquaza should be able to lure in and KO the steel-types. We could run a Specially-based (But still mixed) LO set to wear stuff down for Latios to finish, or maybe a CB set to let us hit hard from either side. Or whatever, Rayquaza has plenty of options.

Palkia is cool but it can't beat rain-ferro as hard as Rayray can; plus, it doesn't lure in Rachi quite as hard because it could just as easily blast it with Hydro Pump;especially if it's in rain (The problem weather in question). It does give us 2 pretty nice 'Ogre checks though, never a bad thing

[lousy918]

yeah thats why i didnt want to vote for latios
coz it stacks with latias essentially who counters kyogre better

btw we dont necessarily need to run something with similar checks/counters, cant we just run sth that beats them

like, once again, SKARMORY

repeated quote, change dragceus to latias, etc

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Originally Posted by Fat lousy918

Agreed^^ although you left out T-tar and Genesect but heck

yeah *votes for a redo*

Despite most, if not all, of the posters going for Deoxys-S, I still feel we should give Skarmory a chance. Since we (apparently) have most Kyogre covered, we can use Skarmory to counter EKiller, plus Groudon without Fire moves and all Tyranitar, allowing Spikestacking.

Another thing are things that wall Dragceus. Lugia is one of them, being able to Whirlwind you out with ease. Skarmory, however, can generally set up Spikes on Lugia, since they don't carry attacks generally bar Ice Beam, which only does around 22%. Even better, if you opt for Taunt, you can stop SubRoost Status Shuffler cold. Although Deoxys-S has Taunt too, it, as a suicide lead, will usually be dead by that point.

Yet another advantage of using Skarmory is walling Outrage. Physical Scarfed Dragons, such as Zekrom and Garchomp, will be forced to predict correctly, and Garchomp can't anything even with prediction. If Zekrom were to Bolt Strike the mispredicted Skarmory, they risk getting swept by Dragceus, since their only revenge killer just died. Skarmory can set up hazards to further assist Dragceus' sweep, weakening its checks, the best example being Kyogre.

Another point I want to bring up is weather sweepers, or more specifically, Excadrill. Skarmory walls it to no end, and phazes it out. Granted, this allows him to spin, but he'll generally take Life Orb damage, so if you keep Spiking and he (stupidly) keeps spinning, and die eventually. With Rocky Helmet (refer to my RMT: www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3479183), his fainting rate will be sped up. If he dies to Life Orb or Rocky Helmet (if applicable), iirc hazards don't disappear. However, despite this, I still feel we should run a spinblocker.

EDIT: NINJA'D

[Melee Mewtwo]

Ray shouldn't really be luring in any steel types due to V-Create being as strong as his Outrage but I guess this is the ladder we are talking about.

Speaking of the ladder, Mewtwo does share some similar checks and counters but none are really common outside of Genesect who doesn't like directly switching into Latios much either. Most teams are probably just going to save their Ferrothorn to check Latios and play a bit more carefully with their Genesect to keep forcing Mewtwo out and rack up more hazard damage. (which means they'll be fighting their own battles instead of really overlapping for the most part)

I like the sound of Palkia, it often lures out the likes of Ferrothorn and may even entice a Jirachi to come in to sponge a dragon attack. Heatran will get cocky and try to come in only to get battered by Surf to the point that it can't deal with Latios's DM anymore. Certain Arceus forms may want to come in as well depending on their typing. Overall, Lustrous Palkia looks like it has fair enough synergy and is hard to handle itself outside of Chansey/Blissey and Grassceus under rain. SubPunch has a different set of counters, though, and we could get away with dropping Thunder for another STAB move since we have Latios's Grass Knot to take out Kyogre. Problem is, though, choosing Palkia stacks up on dragon weaknesses which'll get messy when we go to pick our spin blocker and other members of the team.

Maybe Dialga?

[White symphoni]

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Ray shouldn't really be luring in any steel types due to V-Create being as strong as his Outrage but I guess this is the ladder we are talking about.

Speaking of the ladder, Mewtwo does share some similar checks and counters but none are really common outside of Genesect who doesn't like directly switching into Latios much either. Most teams are probably just going to save their Ferrothorn to check Latios and play a bit more carefully with their Genesect to keep forcing Mewtwo out and rack up more hazard damage. (which means they'll be fighting their own battles instead of really overlapping for the most part)

I like the sound of Palkia, it often lures out the likes of Ferrothorn and may even entice a Jirachi to come in to sponge a dragon attack. Heatran will get cocky and try to come in only to get battered by Surf to the point that it can't deal with Latios's DM anymore. Certain Arceus forms may want to come in as well depending on their typing. Overall, Lustrous Palkia looks like it has fair enough synergy and is hard to handle itself outside of Chansey/Blissey and Grassceus under rain. SubPunch has a different set of counters, though, and we could get away with dropping Thunder for another STAB move since we have Latios's Grass Knot to take out Kyogre. Problem is, though, choosing Palkia stacks up on dragon weaknesses which'll get messy when we go to pick our spin blocker and other members of the team.

Maybe Dialga?

We can always patch up this weaknesses via some kind support Arceus. There are also faster pokes like Genesect who can help.We haven't picked hazards now.We can forgo hazards if running a spinblocker becomes a problem.There are plenty of successful teams that doesn't utilize additional hazards.

Another thing we have to remember that Latios is a wall breaker not a sweeper itself. At least one of It's teammates must be able to use the holes created by Latios to sweep/clean up.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Yeah that's the other option, we completely ignore Latios and build a core that can take advantage of what it blows up.

[blitzlefan]

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Yeah that's the other option, we completely ignore Latios and build a core that can take advantage of what it blows up.

I actually favor this option. But... what does it blow up?

[Melee Mewtwo]

Just about everything that isn't in the above list gets crushed by Draco Meteors. I'm not a big offense player but I'm assuming we just build a cool core that still shares similar checks/counters. (If we build a team that is walled by different things, we won't go anywhere when up against a stall team as each individual wall won't have a problem stopping each individual attacker)

(I'll try to think about possible team-mates and I'll edit this post.)

[lousy918]

can u explain what it means by taking advantage of what it blows up?
do u like mean things that are countered by those pokemon?
such as EKiller (which i dont rly like but first thing i thought of was groudon) and Zekrom

[Melee Mewtwo]

No I just mean we kinda leave Latios to wall breaking and work on a separate core or something. (I'm not a big offense player though) Although, we'll still want to try to have a bit of overlap on key mons so that we only have to worry about wearing down one wall instead of 6.

[scorpdestroyer]

The OP still says we're working on Arceus Dragon...

What about a MixMence set? It could run something like Outrage, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Earthquake. This allows Mence to beat out whichever can wall Latios by running a physical and special moves. Since Latios doesn't fancy physical attackers, its Intimidate can come in handy as well

Salamence @ LO
Trait: Intimidate/Moxie
EVs: will input when I decide on them, or when discussion decides on them
Naive Nature
-Draco Meteor
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Blast / Hydro Pump

Partner in crime with Latios, and takes down walls on both sides of the spectrum. Fire Blast may be redundant with HP Fire on Latios but honestly I like more power, although Hydro Pump is good as well especially with rain being everywhere.

Edit: While I'm at it, I'd also suggest a mixed Hydreigon set which shares decent synergy with Latios. What do you guys think?

[Melee Mewtwo]

Ray would be better at the mixed role, Mence's niche in Ubers is Moxie. Hydreigon isn't very good at all in Ubers and really isn't worth considering. Anyways, Ray could possibly work except it stacks dragon weaknesses so we'll have to be careful in later building.

[Mr.lol]

Ray would be better at the mixed role, Mence's niche in Ubers is Moxie. Hydreigon isn't very good at all in Ubers and really isn't worth considering. Anyways, Ray could possibly work except it stacks dragon weaknesses so we'll have to be careful in later building.

The best way to actually get rid of Latios's checks and counters is to type stack. Rayquaza is just the best at this thanks to its ability to crush all its counters regardless of what weather they're in (really Latios has no counters unless steel-type is in rain / full hp support Arceus, both of which standard Dragon Dance Rayquaza destroys (+1 Outrage OHKOes all Arceus, Fire Blast fries ferrothorn, EQ OHKOes Heatran). Besides, some support Arceus form will always be able to massively assuage our Dragon-type weakness anyway.

Technically this isn't "type-stacking" but it still sounds pretty effective (when paired with wobba support revenge killers shouldn't be an issue really).

Anyways the set is:
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Trait: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Blast / Overheat
- Earthquake

Generally it would be better to use the mixed set to tear down Groudon + spam more special attacks, but Groudon gets destroyed by Latios, and if we use something like Deoxys-S for hazards it shouldn't matter really... that and Special Attack spam really isn't needed since the only special sponge that is an issue is Support Arceus which Draco Meteor wouldn't help bypass.

[Go10]

Wobb is really meh in the current meta, he was extremely good in dpp because of the suprise factor. You can still try it but well, i dont think he deserve the try. If the team is based on ray, try to pair him with something which force the opponent to use moves like Surf or Thunder so you can setup more easily since Ray isnt so bulky.

ps : even if noone use him, SpD jirachi wall latios even if he got hp fire, unless under sun or multiple layer of hazards.

[Melee Mewtwo]

I'm not a big fan of classic DD Ray in Ubers much, anymore. It has way to hard a time trying to set up especially with the rise of defensive Kyogre who can fish for a burn or just phaze it out. (All Ray can do to Ogre is lock itself into a slow, unboosted Outrage) SD Ray sounds more appealing as it can still bite with an unboosted V-Create or a STAB DClaw without worrying about locking itself. (Plus Espeed is always nice to have) As far as Jirachi is concerned, maybe a Kyurem would be useful for luring it out and softening it? Again, its another slowish dragon and one that is SR weak. (Stacking on Dragons isn't bad, we just need to make sure we look ahead before deciding so we don't lock ourselves into a dead end)

[Go10]

Since the OP isnt updated, what's the mons we are building on ? And yeah, I think ray should be kept as a wallbreaker instead of LGS, the mixed set is far better anyway.

[blitzlefan]

@Go10: I believe this is what we're building off of. And yeah, jackm hasn't been on in a while... I hope he updates the OP/teamstyle/etc. soon! :)
Edit: It's updated! It's updated! HOORAY for jackm! :)

Latios @ Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Speed
Timid Nature
0 attack IV's

-Draco Meteor
-Grass Knot
-Hidden Power Fire
-Psyshock

[White symphoni]

Originally Posted by Fat Go10

Since the OP isnt updated, what's the mons we are building on ?

We're building on Latios.

I don't get the reasoning behind getting rid of Latios's counters.It won't be a very good sweeper being so weak to scarf mons and the particular set for the CCAT doesn't even have Recover/CM to help it sweep.

@Melee Mewtwo: In order to take advantage of Latios's wall breaking power,the other members of the offensive core should be benefited by the weakening of their checks/counters which are lured out by latios.Double Booster Groudon+Ekiller is a cool example.Groudon can lure in and bust open Giratina,Skarmory,Defensive Groudon etc so they are too weak to handle ekiller or already dead.So we must look at what Latios lures out and weakens/kills off so we can pick sweepers who appreciate those walls being weakend/killed.Stuff that are killed by Latios but will not bother to switch in,like Groudon are out of this equation.These cores also need to cover weaknesses of each other.For example,Groudon falls to faster threats like Palkia,Lati@s,ScarfOgre etc.Ekiller can hit those faster threats hard with STAB priority Espeed.ScarfTerrakion can RK Ekiller and Groudon can set up on it.

Another way is stacking multiple wall breakers/sweepers with good overall offensive synergy to weaken the whole opposing team then cleaning up with the appropriate sweeper.The breakers on this team are designed to not be hard walled by something and can damage the it's walls.For example,CM Mewtwo can be checked by RockCeus in Sand but cannot hard wall it as it dies to repeated hits or multiple boosts.It can KO/hit very hard just about everything,which makes mewtwo a very good early game wall breaker for teams like this.These teams rely on good offensive synergy and genuine wall breakers to break through defensive cores.Most offensive teams are built in this method as far as I know and this strategy is more flexible and diverse than the previous one.But the previous strategy can work better when used correctly.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Yeah, you are right I got it backwards. We want to find something that can clean up all those checks/counters I listed earlier after Latios has taken a bite out of them. Shaymin-S looks like it would benefit from a weakened Rachi, Tran, Ferro or support Arceus. Tailwind Zekrom might have an easier time cleaning up with things like Ferro within kill range. There's some other options I'm sure.

[jackm]

Sorry the OP wasn't updated (and for my inactivity), something random happened irl and I wasn't able to access the internet.

Anyways, our first order of business should be constructing our offensive core. Assuming we're running Latios as part of it, this means that the first teammates that we select should be Pokemon that do one or some of the following:

1. Take advantage of the Pokemon that Latios lures and kills
2. Lure and kill Pokemon that Latios can take advantage of the absence of
3. Share but not copy Latios's set of switch-ins, in such a way that they can be beaten by way of pressure

Note that this does not entail facilitating a sweep on either Latios or its partners' part. Of the suggestions that have so far been put forward, I'm going to point out some that I think function as stated.

Palkia: Between their twin nukeish Draco Meteors and incredibly varied coverage (Find me a Poke that can sponge DMs while taking Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Grass Knot, Thunder, and Psyshock) Palkia and Latios could potentially be quite effective. You get the gist.

Mewtwo: A little bit of an anomaly, but it could work. The main problem with m2 is that, as MM stated, it doesn't really work together with Latios. It just abuses the holes that Latios makes. It could work though; in order for this team to work, we're going to need a fast, powerful sweeper and m2 could fit the bill

Rayquaza: Ray would play a similar role as Palkia, using immense coverage and excellent power to tear holes with Latios. One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that using two Pokemon that beat each other's counters is not as effective as one might think. Against a stall team (the most likely environment for these counters) the opponent can just switch and heal, switch and heal, while wearing you down with hazards. While stacking Dragon weaknesses could be problematic, I think that Ray is definitely in the running.

These are the big three that I noticed, although I'm sure we can improve. I'll update the OP, keep up the good work guys.

[White symphoni]

Latios+ScarfPalkia should work well,no?Since with Ferro,Defensive Arceus forms weakened, Palkia can pull off a late game sweep. Palkia also can use weather to it's advantage,having access to both Hydro Pump and Fire Blast. Palkia can also outspeed and kill Genesect who is a bitch to Latios.Plus having two Kyogre switch ins is very useful in a weatherless team.So I nominate Scarf Palkia.Sun Balance teams often switch in their Defensive Ho-oh on Latios to sponge DMs since they don't usually have anything else for it,so that also helps ScarfPalkia.


Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spacial Rend
- Hydro Pump
- Fire Blast
- Thunder

This Palkia set really appreciates Ferrothorn,Support Arceus,Defensive Ho-oh being weakened,and pull of a late game sweep quite well.This is a pretty standard Palkia with Spacial Rend for dragon STAB,Hydro Pump for water STAB and Fire Blast,thunder for additional coverage.Perhaps Draco Meteor or Outrage can go in somewhere for hitting harder/getting past Lati twins.Thoughts?

[blitzlefan]

Since Palkia has such great coverage (I'm all in for running Palkia), should we consider an item that doesn't lock it in? Currently, I'm having a lot of success with Lustrous Orb Palkia with the exact same set. This works as a decent lure for Steel-types like Ferrothorn and can cripple it with Fire Blast. With a Choice Scarf, there is a heavy emphasis on prediction, and we lose a lot of momentum if we choose the wrong move, which will hurt even more since we'll have multiple Dragon types. Stacking up Dragon types and busting down checks/counters seems like an excellent idea though.

[lousy918]

idk Im tempted to dialga lol
coz weakness stacking

[akuto]

Originally Posted by Fat blitzlefan

In all honesty, I've never really understood the appeal of running Draco Meteor AND Outrage. Simply because if they send in a Steel-type, you're screwed either way. I prefer this set:

Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Shadow Sneak
- Dragon Tail
- Will-O-Wisp

It's an excellent Arceus-Normal check, as +2 252+ Atk Arceus-Normal Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 316-374 (62.69 - 74.2%), letting it switch in while Arceus boosts, and phaze it out the next turn. Also, Shadow Sneak and Will-O-Wisp provide ample support. (I've been using this set for months now!) True, most Giratina-Os lacking HP Fire will have trouble with Forretress, but 252 SpA Giratina-O Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in rain: 140-168 (39.54 - 47.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. (We have no control over the weather, so I'm assuming Rain as it's the most ubiquitous.)

i see what you're getting at but why on earth would u run 2 stab moves if the same type. if u go for an outrage and get confused i wouldn't want to take the chance of going for a dragon tail getting confused and waste a poke. + ShadowForce arceus completely fucks your set at
+2

[blitzlefan]

@ akuto

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Originally Posted by Fat akuto

G-O I think is a pokemon with many viable sets but i have created one based on anti-meta

@griseous orb, Levitate, Lonely

~Outrage
~Draco meteor
~Shadow sneak
~Wilo-wisp

252ATT/252 SA/4 SD

This set is gimmicky, Fire off a draco than outrage if necessary if u want to switch that is good as well. By switching your opponent will think that your specially invested and probably don't have support moves or even mixed. it has decent synergy, the point of wilo-wisp is when u come into a arceus and you ARE good to live a shadow claw even at +2 fire that off get a good burn on him than switch into something that resists the incoming shadow claw. if you go for an outrage your opponent will immediately know of his presence and say "this guy is a threat i need to take him out" knowing that you are in a more than good enough position to predict and screw with his/her mind.

This message was brought to you by AMS "anti-meta squad" serve and protect.

I don't want to be mean, but excuse me? Your set has no defensive investment, and will be taken out by a +2 Shadow Claw with some residual damage, much less a +2 Shadow Force. +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 411-486 (93.19 - 110.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. Also, Shadow Claw is a much more common move than Shadow Force on Arceus-Normal, seeing as Shadow Claw is at 72.718%, as opposed to Shadow Force, which weighs in at 8.754% usage. Also, Shadow Force is rather easy to play around, as Arceus-Normal will require a charge-up turn to defeat my Giratina-O, which gives me ample opportunity to switch to a Normal-type like my own Arceus-Normal. Furthermore, your Giratina-O has no way of dealing with defensive Spikes users, while mine can at least phaze them out and rack up residual damage. Lastly, to your comment of "why on earth would u run 2 stab moves if the same type" Outrage and Dragon Tail are two completely different moves with two completely different purposes. One is to deal heavy damage while the other is to phaze and help in check Arceus-Normal and other set-up sweepers, while also hindering defensive teams with residual damage. Outrage and Draco Meteor on your set have basically the same purpose, and both are with crippling side effects as well.

ANYWAYS, I like both Dialga and Palkia. Palkia has a similar role as Latios for the double dragon strategy, while Dialga has excellent defensive synergy with Latios and can draw in Groudons that Latios can take down with Grass Knot. Neutrality to Dragon and Ice, with resistances to Bug, Dark, and Ghost help a lot too. Also, Dialga has basically all the same moves as Palkia (with the exception of Hydro Pump, which granted, is pretty big), such as Fire Blast and Thunder for an all-out attacker set, and can even run a viable defensive/supporting set if needed with access to Stealth Rock so... it's up to you guys!

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(Lol I run Giratina-O, Dialga, and Palkia on my current team *facepalm*)

Edit: Thank you, lousy918