On cartridge-accurate HP reporting

[Woodchuck]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

i don't like the switch. we've been using percentages instead of hp bits for how long? i dunno but basically since the first sim was created. now suddenly make a change? kinda obnoxious imo especially since you didn't consult the community first, just did what you wanted to. and i know it's your program and you work hard on it etc., i respect that. but you have to think of the public playerbase needs as well as your own.

the whole tournament players argument is kinda bad, i'm a tour player myself and i don't care a ton about the switch. the only real pain in the ass will be games on showdown where you really need to calc stuff and can't tell what exact % your opponent is at, which is the main reason i'm opposed to this other than the didn't ask thing. however if someone comes up with a calc that works with the whole hp bits thing that would be great and i wouldn't mind the switch nearly as much.

back to the "why even do this" point though...seriously, why even do this? you just went and pissed off a whole ton of people, as evident by this thread, in exchange for some super minor appeal to people who prefer the cartridge look? the cartridges aren't even created for people who play this shit competitively. the only reason nintendo even still does vgc on ds instead of an actual computer sim is because they want to advertise their products. they have to hire refs and all other sorts of official persons just to have a competitive experience on the handheld, we just hit sleep clause and freeze clause and species clause. if the whole sim experience is about making things simpler, easier, and more enjoyable for the player, as nixhex said, then this change shouldn't have happened.

lavos, the argument isn't really about the display so much as it is about how coarse/fine-grained the information presented is to the player.

i'm pretty sure "percentages" were reinstated, although they are fractions of 48 represented as percentages, so i'm not entirely clear on what you're arguing about :v

[Lavos Spawn]

i'm not arguing about anything, just expressing my opinion. i think i worded my post kinda badly though, i'm upset about the lack of percentages and also kind of annoyed that like 99.99% of the community didn't get an opinion on this change before it was implemented. and btw when i'm referring to percentages i'm talking actual percentages, not the fraction bs...

[Jukain]

wait what exactly is happening, percentages or no percentages? if the latter, really? you went against almost the entirety of the community opinion to save your research team. there isn't a reason for anyone to quit over something like this. I for certain will not use ps for anything except suspect reqs. po also has an in-browser client, so I'd keep that in mind in general. I'm seriously questioning whether ps is worth it without percentages.

if you meant the former, then sorry, I misunderstood.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat Woodchuck

lavos, the argument isn't really about the display so much as it is about how coarse/fine-grained the information presented is to the player.

i'm pretty sure "percentages" were reinstated, although they are fractions of 48 represented as percentages, so i'm not entirely clear on what you're arguing about :v

So there's literally nothing to complain about. We got our percentages back, no harm done!

Everyone who said they'd quit PS should stop in their tracks. For reference Shoddy used the exact same system that PS is using right now!

I don't think we should talk about HP% anymore. We should examine the other mechanics that aren't implemented. Like i'm not sure if we're keeping the ball rolling or not.

[Woodchuck]

Lavos, we never had "actual percentages". We used to have fractions out of 100. Now we have fractions out of 48. Both are imperfect information; there is now a slight difference in the amount of information you received before as opposed to now, but the one out of 48 is more accurate to the game.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat Woodchuck

there is now a slight difference in the amount of information you received before as opposed to now, but the one out of 48 is more accurate to the game.

and also less accurate in a mathematical sense which is why i'm annoyed...now instead of knowing that my opponent's pokemon has 48% health left i only know that it's approx. 46.92-48%, making it harder to judge whether or not x move will ko, etc. it's an unnecessary burden for players, all for the sake of the programming crew and a small minority of the community feeling proud of themselves for "more accurately representing the cartridges".

[alexwolf]

Yeah but it is more confusing. It is much easier to have 100 fractions than 48 because then you can immediately translate them to percentages, which is what damage calculators use.

[Woodchuck]

Have you actually played a battle in the simulator recently? HP is still represented as a percentage, just truncated.

[Lavos Spawn]

i like how it says 62% on the hp bar but 63% on the popup screen

it seems like the actual percentage is just being expressed as 30/48 and then rounds up (30 divided by 48 = .625, rounded up = 63%) instead of expressing the real percentage, so correct me if i'm wrong but i believe there's room for error there...

[Jukain]

yeah, how is it possible to make accurate damage calculations with this?

[alexwolf]

Yeah sry Woddchuck i hadn't observed that you still get a percentage estimation of the damage. Well this makes the impact of the change smaller, but the point of Lavos and Pokemon remains.

But i have to say, now that i know that percentages are still shown, to my eyes both sides have equally concerning issues, so in terms of fairness i think that i am neutral on the matter. However, most of the community is negative about this so i don't know how you guys will want to proceed.

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

I will always appreciate that time when you basically went on a limb to help me(when no one would) when I asked you to fix Illusion. On the other hand, if you've decided on trying to follow the cartridge games as closely as possible then you need to go all of the way. That means revisiting Sleep Clause, implementing a pokeball system (because they determine what moves certain Pokemon have, etc.) and doing everything else I outlined in my post.

I do plan on doing all those things, you know...

[Kristoph]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

yeah, how is it possible to make accurate damage calculations with this?

I actually want to go ahead and put forth the possibility that making Pokemon less about specific, potentially-tedious damage calculations would be an improvement to the game. It potentially allows for a more 'play by feel' approach, emphasizing intuitive valuation rather than trivial accounting skills (which, as some business majors might tell you, are generally not that interesting!). I mention this not as blind armchair theory or anything, but because I'm literally speaking with an active Pokemon player who feels this way but doesn't currently have access to Policy Review.

In any case, I think it's unfair to imply that decreasing the exactness of HP reports would unquestionably have a negative impact on the game; in fact, I'm almost inclined to believe the exact opposite. In either case, the difference is probably not that significant-- all I'm saying is that the common wisdom, which is that less exact HP reports would 'obviously' negatively impact the game, needs to be reevaluated.

We can further illustrate this by imagining a simulator that gives hyper-exact HP reports, down to the exact HP of the opposing Pokemon. This would give players even more information than they've traditionally been given in past simulators, and it represents an even greater capacity for particularly dedicated players to run precise damage calculations, make specific inferences on the opposing Pokemon's EV spread, and so on. I'm sure there really are players who would be delighted to take advantage of 100% exact HP reports in this way. But I also think it might be cumbersome or frustrating for serious players who are nonetheless uninterested in earning a 'competitive edge' by running regular damage calculations during their battles, and it could also be a good way of discouraging new players. These are pretty important considerations.

(You can even go further down the rabbit hole and imagine a simulator ('impartial judge') that not only gives hyper-exact HP reports, but also projects and displays exact probabilities for the possible EV spreads of any opposing Pokemon that you have an HP value for. Again, this represents an increase in the information available to the players, as well as a huge increase in the depth of turn-by-turn analysis that certain, particularly math-inclined and dedicated players are capable of undertaking. But to what extent would that represent an improvement to the game of Pokemon?)

[Jukain]

that percentage point or two could be the difference between winning or losing. I want to know if Keldeo can survive a Bullet Punch from Scizor. I want to know if Latios can finish off Tyranitar with Surf. this information directly affects how I plan out endgame situations. this convenience has been available as long as I've played Pokemon, and it'd be hard to play without. if a good damage calc used /48 percentages, I wouldn't care, but as it stands, none do.

[Kristoph]

I understand what your preference is, but as a matter of policy I think it's more important to understand what the wider implications are-- not just on those members who happen to express vocal objection to cartridge-accurate HP reporting, but on the community as a whole (up to and including people who don't presently play Pokemon seriously, but one day might).

[yee]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

yeah, how is it possible to make accurate damage calculations with this?

You multiply by 48 then divide by 100 to get a fair calc. There's also damage calcs that tell you all of the exact hit point possibilities each move has which you can still use if you're going all out. You get less precise information from pixels, but so does your opponent. Over time that would be your significant difference once you adjust to reading 48ths instead of percentages. There are good reasons to keep percentages IMO but making accurate damage calcs doesn't strike me.

[Firestorm]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

that percentage point or two could be the difference between winning or losing. I want to know if Keldeo can survive a Bullet Punch from Scizor. I want to know if Latios can finish off Tyranitar with Surf. this information directly affects how I plan out endgame situations. this convenience has been available as long as I've played Pokemon, and it'd be hard to play without. if a good damage calc used /48 percentages, I wouldn't care, but as it stands, none do.

You're not supposed to know those things. The convenience you're talking about is access to information that the player doesn't have. This is like if simulators started out showing amount of HP on both sides and all of a sudden, a sim programmer changed it to the 48ths system to be more accurate to the game and people complained because they'd been using the HP number to figure out the opponent's HP EVs and damage calculations and now they can't.

The correct way to do this is of course not showing numbers at all for the opponent but Cathy says it's impossible to do that without having it at least be accessible using something like Firebug which would give an advantage to more technically literate users so I can see why they've settled on the current compromise.

[Jukain]

I and everyone else have played knowing this information, I don't see how it's a non-issue. Also:

Originally Posted by Fat Kristoph

I understand what your preference is, but as a matter of policy I think it's more important to understand what the wider implications are-- not just on those members who happen to express vocal objection to cartridge-accurate HP reporting, but on the community as a whole (up to and including people who don't presently play Pokemon seriously, but one day might).

Isn't the simulator for people who actually play the game? I mean, it's not for people who are just casually playing the game? By this I mean in-game players and people who just play for fun (no offense to anyone). These people are fine, but I assume the simulator is aimed at competitive players. This isn't something anyone... really... complaind about. There's a difference between being exactly correct to the game and catering to the audience the simulator is meant for.

[capefeather]

The main point is that both the %s and the 48ths are approximations. If accurate HP reporting is so important, then the logical conclusion is to report the opponent's exact HP. The only reason we wouldn't go that far is, again, the precedent set by previous simulators.

I don't know if this is worth anything, but didn't Pokemon Lab also use 48ths with the option for approximated % displays? I don't recall anyone complaining about it then. *shrug* I don't know what this implies.

[Firestorm]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

I and everyone else have played knowing this information, I don't see how it's a non-issue. Also:

Isn't the simulator for people who actually play the game? I mean, it's not for people who are just casually playing the game? By this I mean in-game players and people who just play for fun (no offense to anyone). These people are fine, but I assume the simulator is aimed at competitive players. This isn't something anyone... really... complaind about. There's a difference between being exactly correct to the game and catering to the audience the simulator is meant for.

I think back in the day of IRC bots that "simulators" might have been made for the competitive player, but these days I've gotten the impression that simulators are created by software developers with an interest in Pokémon that want to create an accurate simulator. As it happens, this is useful for competitive Pokemon players as well. That said, tournament players on Smogon aren't the largest users of these simulators. Simulators are just as interesting to casual Pokemon fans who just want to battle online without understanding the inner workings as they are to those of us who can't remove Natures from our brains while playing through the game. My first time ever on NetBattle was as one of those people.

Pokemon Showdown -- being browser-based -- has the lowest barrier to entry of any Pokemon simulator. Its popularity soared after it was posted on Reddit. Considering most of the tournament matches are apparently being done on PO these days but Showdown is at the most popular it's ever been (over 2000 players on the official server on a daily basis), I'm not sure why it's a big deal. It's the casual players that make up the bulk of the userbase.

If Showdown's staff are interested in most accurately simulating a Pokemon battle, I'd say they have every power to do so. Showdown doesn't need Smogon. Smogon needs Showdown. I think Zarel, Cathy, and bmelts should probably keep their researchers and themselves happy before dealing with the grumblings of the 1%.

[Jukain]

if by the 1% you mean practically everyone on smogon irc in the aftermath of the change in addition to a good part of the ps chat, I don't see your point. that's not the 1%, that's the people who play the damn game competitively. comparatively to the ps userbase, it might be sort of medium. simulators are made catered to competitive battlers. while they might be able to accomodate the casual battlers, the simulators exist to play competitive Pokemon. excluding trying to exactly simulate in-game conditions for vgc (which is good, imo) then there is little reason to ignore the competitive players.

I can't be the only person that heard "guess it's time to go back to PO."

EDIT: this is something being argued in theory and really does nothing but harm the people playing

[capefeather]

People have threatened to go back to / stay in PO before. Programmers have bailed from projects beneficial to Smogon before. Which is the bigger threat? If you're trying to use leverage of all things to make your case, I'm sorry but the programmers have the advantage there. Whether that's how it should be or whatever is irrelevant. Somebody's bound to be exposed as living in a bubble.

[Kristoph]

EDIT: this is something being argued in theory and really does nothing but harm the people playing

So it's being "argued in theory," and yet you continue to assert that it "does nothing but harm the people playing," based on... what? Theory?

[Jukain]

I say that based on the reaction I observed, not theory.

Addressing capefeather's point:
I guess the programmers can do whatever they want, but they should also consider the community the simulator was made for. That's all I have to say on this matter.

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

that percentage point or two could be the difference between winning or losing. I want to know if Keldeo can survive a Bullet Punch from Scizor. I want to know if Latios can finish off Tyranitar with Surf. this information directly affects how I plan out endgame situations. this convenience has been available as long as I've played Pokemon, and it'd be hard to play without. if a good damage calc used /48 percentages, I wouldn't care, but as it stands, none do.

But the point is, you don't. Even if you had a huge magnifying glass, if /48 percentages can't tell you whether or not Keldeo survives the BP, playing on the actual game itself won't, either.

And the "impartial judge" argument is preposterous. If you said you wanted to take back a decision, that's a reasonable request. If you said you wanted someone to go look at your opponent's screen and tell you how much HP they had, you'd get laughed out of the room.

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

if by the 1% you mean practically everyone on smogon irc in the aftermath of the change in addition to a good part of the ps chat, I don't see your point. that's not the 1%, that's the people who play the damn game competitively. comparatively to the ps userbase, it might be sort of medium. simulators are made catered to competitive battlers. while they might be able to accomodate the casual battlers, the simulators exist to play competitive Pokemon. excluding trying to exactly simulate in-game conditions for vgc (which is good, imo) then there is little reason to ignore the competitive players.

As far as I can tell, a lot of the complainers are confused and have gotten "show percentages" mixed up with "report percentages". This is confirmed by how nearly all of the drama died down once we made the sim show percentages again, even though HP is still being reported as pixels.