Venusaur【BW2 Revamp】【QC: 1/3】

[Trinitrotoluene]

Things to do:

• Flesh out the skeleton [✓]
• Get QC approvals [ ]
• Write an entry for Venusaur [ ]
• Get GP checks [ ]
• Upload this [ ]

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Status: Waiting for more QC checks.
QC Approvals: [yee]* || [ ] || [ ]
GP Checks: [ ] || [ ]
* denotes QC approvals given prior to completion of skeleton
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I twisted the knife and opened your eyes...

[Overview]

• Best Chlorophyll sweeper in OU
• Growth buffed in transition to BW
• Got Giga Drain as a move tutor move, allowing it to use Life Orb without fear of dying too soon
• Sleep Powder still as deadly as ever
• Great resistances and respectable bulk allow Venusaur to set up rather easily
• Disappointing outside of sun, mandating Ninetales as a supporter

[SET]
name: Growth Sweeper (would Chlorophyll Abuse be a better name?)
move 1: Growth
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sludge Bomb / Sleep Powder
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
ability: Chlorophyll
evs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
ivs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Venusaur's best shot at sweeping under the sun
• Growth obligatory boosting move
• Giga Drain best option for first slot, due to STAB, healing effect, and respectable base power
• Hidden Power Fire mandatory for hitting steels not named Heatran
• Sludge Bomb preferred move in last slot because of more neutral coverage
• Grass / Fire / Poison only misses Heatran (which actually counters Venusaur and is a problem for most sun teams), Chandelure (same boat as Heatran)

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• EVs look weird, but they allow it to live through an Adamant LO Mamoswine's Ice Shard even after 1 round of SR damage while maintaining enough speed to outpace all variants of Scarf Latios
• If Blissey / Chansey lack Thunder Wave, then Venusaur can actually set up with Growth and 2HKO them with +6 Giga Drain, thanks to the given EVs
• Sleep Powder can temporarily take out an opponent's Pokemon and possibly earn Venu some set-up time
• Ice / Ground coverage from HP Ice and EQ an option to hit dragons, Heatran and Chandy, but at the cost of not hitting Skarm and Forry too hard
• IVs minimize confusion damage, but IVs can be altered to 30 Atk / 30 Def if HP Ice and EQ are used
• Alt. EV spread of 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe should be used if HP Ice / EQ is used
• Modest with 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe can be used for even more power, but is outpaced by Scarf Latios and +2 Cloyster, reducing its effectiveness
• Weather support from Ninetales mandated at all times, unless one wants a decidedly mediocre attacker
• Heatran counter needed if not running EQ; Dugtrio can serve as great utilitymon by trapping either Heatran or opposing weather inducers, but preferably the former, and Garchomp provides great resistances and a powerful OUTRAGE to supplement its own STAB EQ
• Heatran itself is good teammate, since bears resistance to almost all of Venusaur's weaknesses and can actually beat Volcarona, and Venu in return can beat grounds that plague Heatran's existence
• Trappermon to assure Venu that sun stays up; Gothitelle and Duggy best options, but each has own pros and cons

[SET]
name: Sunny Day
move 1: Sunny Day
move 2: Giga Drain / SolarBeam
move 3: Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sleep Powder / Sludge Bomb
item: Black Sludge
nature: Timid
ability: Chlorophyll
evs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
ivs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Relinquishes incredible sweeping potential of Growth set for ability to be potent offensive supportmon that could sweep weakened teams
• Sunny Day lets Venu disrupt the tempo of opposing weather teams and act as a back-up inducer should Ninetales croak prematurely
• Giga Drain gets nod over SolarBeam in second slot for providing Venusaur a somewhat reliable method of recovery; SolarBeam still an option if more power needed
• HP Fire best coverage move, since it fully exploits sun's boost to Fire-type moves and hits steels not named Heatran or Empoleon super-effectively
• Sleep Powder incapacitates one Pokemon temporarily, giving a teammate a free switch-in
• Sludge Bomb can be used if hitting Celebi, Breloom, and dragons is better than sleeping a member of opponent's team

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Refer to Growth set for EV and IV explanation
• HP Ice can be used to surprise Dragonite, Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Salamence, but lacks other reasons for use
• LO and EBelt an option for more powerful attacks, but not as recommended since they cut against Venusaur's durability
• Despite having access to Sunny Day, main function is to act as a back-up inducer to Ninetales, so again, Ninetales support is absolutely mandatory
• Walled to the ends of the Earth and back by Heatran and Chandelure; Chomp and Dugtrio again are great counters to the two
• Trappermons not as necessary, but still good to have
• Powerful cleaners like Volcarona and Sawsbuck good to have
• Bulkymons like Amoonguss, Celebi, and Reuniclus can tank a hit and threaten with paralysis, sleep, or a powerful STAB attack, necessitating the use of powerful wall-breakers like Victini, Dragonite, and Darmanitan

[SET]
name: SubSeed
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Substitute / Protect
move 3: Sleep Powder / Giga Drain
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Black Sludge
nature: Bold
ability: Chlorophyll
evs: 192 HP / 252 Def / 52 SpD / 12 Spe
ivs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Eschews any sweeping potential to act as an annoying quick-staller
• Can abuse Sleep Powder and force switches with great resistances and threat of a sweep, unlike Whimsicott, and beat opposing Grass-types with sun-boosted HP Fire, unlike Breloom
• Can actually absorb Toxic Spikes thanks to its Poison sub-type
• Leech Seed is crux of this set, allowing Venusaur to slowly sap the life out of any sucker that isn't a Grass-type or Magic Guarder / Magic Bouncer; makes Chansey / Blissey more wary of switching in on it
• Substitute preferred move in 2nd slot since it shields Venu from any status inflictions and priority; however, Protect an option if losing a bit of health is too much to sacrifice
• Sleep Powder preferred move to incapacitate a member of the opponent's team, giving Venu time to set itself up; Giga Drain can be used to give Venusaur a STAB move that gives it even more recovery
• HP Fire acts as a pseudo-STAB under sun that slams Grass-types immune to Leech Seed

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• EVs are specialized. If it's alright with the QC team, I'll be using the paragraph shown below from the old Venusaur analysis, since it explains the specialized EVs in full detail.

  • Originally Posted by Fat Paragraph in Question

    With 12 Speed EVs, Venusaur reaches 198 Speed, which lets it outpace positive-natured base 130 Speed Pokemon under the sun. 192 HP EVs give Venusaur a Leftovers number, increasing the amount of healing it receives each turn. 252 Defense EVs and a Bold nature gives maximum physical bulk, and the remainder is placed in Special Defense. Synthesis can be used to to heal almost all of Venusaur's health, but the low 8 PP hurts Venusaur when it comes to stalling. Protect can be used over Sleep Powder for more efficient stalling at the cost of ease of setup. Toxic can be used to poison opponents, particularly those immune to Toxic Spikes, but Venusaur needs the moves it has in order to work efficiently.

• Ninetales still as great a supportmon as ever, since it gives Venusaur that speed boost and kick to HP Fire's power
• Hazard support, specifically TSpikes, from the likes of Forretress and Tentacruel handy to help weaken bulkymons that can wall this Venu
• Reuniclus a thorn in this set's side; Volcarona and Victini help immensely
• Trappermons just as handy, but this time, Wobby gets the limelight, since it can abuse Leech Seed's recovery and screw over Reuniclus and Regenerator Pokemon

Mixed Growth. Thinking of just mentioning this in AC of first Growth set.

---

[SET]
name: Mixed Growth
move 1: Growth
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Earthquake
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
ability: Chlorophyll
evs: 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
ivs: 30 Atk / 30 Def

[SET COMMENTS]


[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

[Other Options]

• Physical Swords Dance set can be used, but power difference is noticeable
• Worry Seed
• Overgrow can be used to get access to egg moves, but is generally not worth it, because Venusaur NEEDS Chlorophyll to sweep
• Choice items can be used, but a lesser option since Venusaur likes switching moves
• Synthesis can be used to get reliable recovery, but is generally not worth it since rain and other weathers cut into its efficiency

[Checks and Counters]

• Heatran = public enemy #1, since it walls Fire / Grass / Poison type coverage; Chandelure in similar boat, but has to be more careful, due to relative frailty and vulnerability to SR.
• Multiscale and ExtremeSpeed makes Dragonite a reliable check, but SR neuters it
• If they carry Thunder Wave, Chansey and Blissey act as semi-reliable checks
• Other weather inducers can effectively neuter Venusaur by cutting its speed source away from it
• Volcarona can set up on Venusaur if it hasn't acquired any boosts yet
• Mamoswine's and Weavile's Ice Shard makes Mamoswine cry
• Hydreigon and Garchomp check Venusaur, but both have to be careful once Venusaur scores a Growth boost under the sun

[Princess Bri]

Great job on the sets and the set order, TNT! The only nitpick I have is to slash Sleep Powder before Giga Drain on the SubSeed set. It's pretty important for doing the whole SubSeed shenanigans, but I know there is merit in having Giga Drain as well so make it a secondary slash.

[The Agonist]

Just a nitpick, but for the mixed Growth set, unless there is some merit to running 31 HP, the better IV spread is 30/31/30/31/31/31.

[yee]

I agree with Bri that Sleep Powder should be listed before Giga Drain on the SubSeed set, it helps force the beginning of the SubSeeding process and once you get that going HP Fire is more necessary to deal with Seed immune mons. I would also prefer "Mixed Growth" be turned into "you can use Ice / Ground coverage instead of Fire / Poison" in the AC of the first Growth set. EQ isn't making you much better off against Blissey / Chansey, it's primary motivation is always hitting Heatran with possible secondary benefits against 4x Ice weak mons like Glisc / Lando / Lando-T.

With this-

[Nutrix]

My favorite Venosaur set is actually an all-out attacker, with Life Orb and Sleep Powder, Giga Drain, HP Fire, Sludge Bomb. It can't sweep as well, but it puts something to sleep and hits stuff hard, and can still clean up late game. At least give it a mention in "other options"?

[Princess Bri]

Both Sleep Powder and Sludge Bomb have the same basic purpose of killing / neudering one of Venusaur's counters. Growth is better in almost every scenario.

[Nutrix]

OK, but if Overgrow and the like get a mention, I feel the all out attacker deserves one too. For what it's worth, I've had great success with it on the ladder.

[RaikouLover]

No mention of Synthesis anywhere?

[AJC]

not really usable as venus doesn't really have a typing or the bulk to be using it.

that's from my experiences with it.

[Princess Bri]

I'd rather heal up with Giga Drain than use Synthesis. :s

[alexwolf]

Are you still working on this? Because a lot of the skeleton is missing and one month has already passed since you posted this...

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Yeah, we're going to need some signs of life here. Venusaur is kinda important.

[Trinitrotoluene]

Sorry for not getting this done. I was inundated by other matters. Skeleton will be up soon.

EDIT 1: Skeleton is done. Tell me what you all think.

[Pocket]

Overview - good!

Growth

~ I prefer Max SpA / Max Spe as the preferred option. Nothing sucks more losing to an opposing Sun team b/c the opposing Venusaur had the Speed advantage.
~ Adamant LO Mamoswine still fails to KO Venusaur with Ice Shard after SR (73-86%), so you can still leave that interesting info in there.

~ Remind people to use Hasty / Naive Nature and Atk IVs of 31 and Speed IVs of 31 for the mixed attacker set
~ I suggest 88 Atk / 244 SpA / 176 Spe for the mixed set
~ Explain the EV spread: 88 Atk turns EQ into a guaranteed OHKO to max HP Heatran after SR, while the Speed keeps it faster than +2 Cloyster and +1 Latios

~ You can add Wobbuffet to the list of Trappers and explain how its Encore can provide free Growth opportunities to Venusaur

Sunny Day

~ Again I would simply go Max / Max sweeper EVs for other Venusaurs. "LO HP Number" means shit here anyways.

~ AC mention Heat Rock for 8 turns of Sun / Yache Berry probably isn't a bad choice, either.

Leech Seed

~ Remove Protect slash and leave it in AC; Substitute is almost always better than Protect

~ Please change the EV spread to 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe EVs; Leftover number is not worth decreasing the overall bulk of Venusaur by maximizing its HP.

• Terrakion's SE to old spread: 38-44% / new spread: 36-43%
• Specs Toed's IB to old spread: 72-85% / new spread: 73-86%

~ I am actually not quite convinced that physically defensive is the best way to go here, since Venusaur can be an excellent special wall, soaking up all those Rain-boosted STAB Water moves from Keldeo and STAB Thunders. To illustrate, it has 75% chance of surviving Keldeo's Specs Hydro Pump IN THE RAIN after SR, and that's not accounting the 36% chance to miss in those 2 turns. +2 Modest HP Ice from Thundurus-T also fails to OHKO after SR. Idk about you, but I believe there are stronger evidence to go specially defensive than physical.

In this case I would go Calm Nature and divert those Def EVs into SpD.

~ AC mention 116 Speed EVs to not be screwed by Trick Scarf Rotom-W

~ AC mention Giga Drain over Sleep Powder or Substitute to actually give Water-types a reason to switch out

~ AC mention Synthesis for yummy 67% recovery in the Sun without relying on Leech Seed

Trappermons just as handy, but this time, Wobby gets the limelight, since it can abuse Leech Seed's recovery and screw over Reuniclus and Regenerator Pokemon

Not quite sure what Regenerator mon you're referring to, unless you mean Tornadus-T that just got banished (:<). All the other Regenertor mons are UU and below

Other Options

~ List the moves incompatible with Chlorophyll: Power Whip and Leaf Storm from Egg moves and Weather Ball from a jap event

Checks and Counters

If they carry Thunder Wave, Chansey and Blissey act as semi-reliable checks

Paralyzing Venusaur with ease sounds more than "semi-reliable" to me.

Mamoswine's and Weavile's Ice Shard makes Mamoswine cry

You mean Venusaur >_<

~ You forgot to include one of the most notorious draconic checks: Latias / Latios. Also Kyurem and Kyurem-Black. Plz add them!

~ Scizor and its Bullet Punch; Jirachi can tank a hit more often than not and cripple Venusaur

~ Tornadus-I can switch into a Grass move and Prankster Taunt / summon Rain or Tailwind

~ I think there should be a heavier emphasis on winning the weather war to easily defeat Venusaur. It's probably even more reliable than Heatran / Chandelure, both of which gets boned by Dugtrio.

[Trinitrotoluene]

Thanks for the feedback Pocket! I'll get those changes instituted when I get back onto my laptop. I don't like editing long posts on my iPad.

[alexwolf]

Growth Sweeper

Additional Comments

• When talking about the mons that you miss hitting with EQ + HP Ice mention Scizor and Ferrothorn too

Sunny Day

Additional Comments

• Mention Substitute Hydreigon, which is an exclellent teammate, and a very cool mon for sun teams in general. OHKO/2HKOes Heatran, sets up on Celebi, beats Chandelure, etc

Checks and Counters

• Add SubRoost Kyu-B as a counter as it avoids the OHKO from +2 Sludge Bomb even after SR, and OHKOes back with Ice Beam after SR and 1 LO round. Every other Kyu-B set is a good check as long as SR is off the field
• CB Scizor does 69% min, and is useless against most other sun members, meaning that it will probably be alive in late game, and will hinder Venusaur's sweep, so it's an ok revenge killer
• Mention that any Scarfer of 108 Base Speed and above revenge kills Modest Venusaur

After adding mine and Pocket's info, i will approve this.

[shrang]

Add SubRoost Kyu-B as a counter as it avoids the OHKO from +2 Sludge Bomb even after SR, and OHKOes back with Ice Beam after SR and 1 LO round. Every other Kyu-B set is a good check as long as SR is off the field

That would also extrapolate to normal Kyurem too.

[alexwolf]

Normal Kyurem doesn't use specially defensive sets, and thus cannot counter Venusaur. However Kyurem is an ok check if SR is off the field, so add this one too.

[Pocket]

So are we deciding to keep TNT's offensive spread or go max SpA / max Spe like I suggested? I know there was a conversation about this going on in #c&c, but not so sure about the final verdict.

[alexwolf]

We decided to keep the bulky spread as the main for now, but this may change if the release of Weather Ball makes Venusaur more popular.

[AccidentalGreed]

Weather Ball is only compatible with Overgrow Venusaur. If Weather Ball was released with Cholorophyll, man, imagine how far we'd kick it out towards the other side of the universe.

And yeah, just go with the bulky spread.

If you would make Pocket's other changes, we can get this thing going now!

[PK Gaming]

Trinitrotoluene doesn't want to work on Venusaur anymore, so i'm moving this to L&O.