Smogon Community CAP 5 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions
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Mar 4th, 2013, 10:06:12 PM   #1
Birkal*
We have the technology.

Super Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,070
The
CAP 5 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions

sorry, I got distracted by the art thread

Now we move into stat spread submissions! This is where we as a community get a chance to make our own stat spreads, comment on those made by others, and ultimately vote on what stats CAP 5 will have. Let's take a look at our BSR rating limits that we established in the previous thread:

Limits:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat DetriotLolcat Physical Sweepiness: Limit is 145 Physical Tankiness: Limit is 135 Special Sweepiness: Limit is 75 Special Tankiness: Limit is 245 The BSR lower limit is 250, and the upper limit is 320.
BSR ABUSE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED AND WILL NOT BE SLATED!

BSR abuse is doing things like 150 HP and 70 Def/SpD to create a theoretical optimum with the limits that you have. The purpose of the stat rating limits is to restrict what submitters can do, not to give them a license to game the system. If you cannot justify your stats legitimately and have not proven that you aren't just making the best stats within the limits, you will not get slated.

A spreadsheet for calculating the biases can be found here. The formulas themselves can be found here. Do not use the BSR calculator on-site, as it is designed for DPP BSR. To use the spreadsheet, you will need Microsoft Excel 2007 or higher, OpenOffice.org Calc 3 or higher, or a similar spreadsheet program that can handle .xlsx files. Alternatively, you can upload the spreadsheet onto Google docs. At any rate, you must have the stat rating values listed correctly in your submission or it will be ignored for slate.

Here is CAP 5 so far:

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat Base Speed Name: Type Equalizer Description: A pokemon whose presence in the metagame increases the usage of one or more underused types and simultaneously decreases the usage of one or more overused types. Justification: Take a look at the OU usage statistics for January and you'll see that 9 out of the top 10 pokemon have either steel, water, dragon or fighting as one of their types, and extending it to the top 20 shows 16/20 with those types. We should also be asking ourselves why these trends exist so strongly and what can be done about them. In creating this CAP, we'd have to discuss in depth many different aspects of what makes a type and opinions can ultimately being tested in the playtest. Questions To Be Answered: Is a types usefulness relative to the metagame or is it intrinsic? (Ie. Can any type be the "best" type given the right circumstances or do type match-ups, available STAB moves etc mean some types will always be better than others?) What exploitable weaknesses do "good" types in OU have? Are their currently pokemon that can exploit them and if so, how do they function differently to CAP5? How (if at all) will the targeted types adapt to the situation created? Will people choose different movesets, abilities, etc or will they just use them more/less? How is this linked to the way CAP5 functions strategically? What effects will the changes on certain types' presence have on the metagame? Which members of the targeted types will benefit and suffer from this most and why? By creating CAP5, have we learnt any new ways to counter good types or use bad types?
Typing: Grass / Dark
Primary Ability: Harvest
__________________

 Mar 4th, 2013, 10:09:16 PM #2 srk1214 Supreme Master of Trivia     Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 824 WIP: 90/100/60/45/130/75 (BST: 500) PT: 99.7571 - Below Average (barely lol) ST: 209.068 - Fantastic PS: 132.263 - Good SS: 72.5607 - Poor BSR: 274.007 - Good __________________ Best. Match. Ever. http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou11554542 To see the other best match ever, go to DetroitLolcat's signature. Last edited by srk1214; Mar 4th, 2013 at 10:50:33 PM. Reason: woopsie daisy wrong generation calc xD
Mar 4th, 2013, 10:46:09 PM   #8
Pwnemon

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,168
Maryland

Final Submission

110 HP / 105 ATK / 60 DEF / 35 SpA / 125 SpD / 35 Spe (BST 475)

PT: 115.6968
PS: 87.3985
ST: 238.3497
SS: 49.8265
BSR: 259.7695

OK Reasoning:

First, the most important thing I think about this CAP that we need to realize: we can't just throw in another high-powered Pokemon and expect to achieve the concept. I used a really stupid analogy on IRC that people seemed to get: imagine OU as a pond. If we throw a big fat log in the pond, the water level will rise, but nothing will sink and nothing will disproportionally rise. If we drop some small, really dense rocks on certain targets of flotsam, they will fall and others will rise to take their place. In the same way, if we just drop a Pokemon with a good power level, it will fail to specialize, and threats will adapt around it rather than rising or falling. You can see this with the reintroduction of Garchomp: it was a generically powerful Pokemon, but it had no real counters, so the metagame shifted around it, but specific usages did not. Mamo rose a bit, but things remained pretty sturdy overall. We need to make something that does not just bump up the power level of OU a bit, but nukes certain Pokemon to oblivion and has not much of an answer for the rest of the meta (but still admirably supports its playstyle). This is the justification behind such a tailored (not BSR abusing, sheesh) spread.

In general, the spread was designed very intentionally so that there are three good stats to invest in: Atk, SpD, Def, (everyone will invest in HP) and you only get to pick one. I made it this way so that the CAP's role is as customizable for your team as possible; either as a big fatass wall that can tank special attacks or a Pokemon that can take hits and dish them back with some respectability, and it can choose to either be a fucking massive special wall or a good mixed wall (110/60 is surprisingly strong invested).

Basically, I want to give our CAP as many ways as possible to do its job of countering the latis, and provide it with some berry versatility while we're at it. I'm afraid that none of the faster spreads would be able to run Rest in their movepool, because they would be virtually impossible to KO, and while the middling speed spreads don't really run into this problem, middling speed is so... middling. I'll be honest, I took it as a personal challenge to make a stat spread that could function perfectly well within ten points of the low boundary for BSR, and I know I succeeded.

I'm going to cut the crap here and be candid: I made this stat spread almost entirely with our big three in mind. That is, CAP5 can counter the Latis with almost any set, as long as none of them are 252 Atk Lum. If 252 Atk Lum could beat our big three, we would have to remove rest from the movepool, at least in my opinion. That's because 252 Atk Lum sets would kind of derail our concept by becoming, instead of a niche counter, a strong attacker that is rarely ohkoed, and I don't want that. I want the spread to have to work to do what it does, so it can't do other things besides.

Quote:
 252 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 140-166 (46.35 - 54.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD (custom): 186-220 (43.86 - 51.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (adjusted for two hits)
So as you can see, while 252 Atk is the only spread that reliably KOes Latias, it comes at a price: namely, the price of being able to switch in—If you carry lum.

If CAP5 runs Sitrus, it will survive and OHKO.
If CAP5 invests in Special Defense, it can Rest and tank Latios DM forever. It loses a decent amount of power, but it will never die.
Quote:
 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Claydol: 168-198 (39.62 - 46.69%) -- 32.42% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (adjusted for two hits)
If CAP5 runs some sort of sitrus + max SpD subseed set? It lives. (and 2hkoes with crunch)
Quote:
 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Claydol: 205-243 (48.34 - 57.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (NOT adjusted)
So with my spread, we can give CAP5 rest without worrying at all about lumrest 252HP/252Atk becoming the standard set and being able to wall everything. It will still be a good set in its own right, too—just unable to switch in on Specs Latios. Oh, and for all the above sets vs toed:
Quote:
 252 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 428-506 (111.45 - 131.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD (custom): 192-228 (45.28 - 53.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The same exact scenario occurs. A sitrus attacker, a special wall with lum, or a special wall with Sitrus can all beat Politoed, but 252 Atk Lum cannot:
Quote:
 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 158-188 (37.26 - 44.33%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (2% fatality on the lum wall, sue me)
I'm still by all means convinced that lum+attack will be a good set. but i'm not worried about it dominating, because it downgrades our status on our two most important targets from "counter" to "check." This will, I hope, pigeonhole our CAP into its desired roles instead of letting it grow into some monster we never expected (like Tomohawk did when we had a similar concept of 'beat exca and blaziken').

As for the speed: I wanted to drop it low enough so that investment in it is in no way a possibility in any way, shape, form, etc. Fast HydraRest with good defensive stats has been proven, in manaphy, to be broken (even in gen IV), and that thing doesn't have Rapid Spin. The middling speeds were OK, but being able to outrun Politoed would ruin the whole point I made above; you would no longer need to survive and 2hko, you could run lum+attack and still demolish politoed. So I figured, why not drop the speed pretty damn low? The only benchmark I wanted to beat was Wobbuffet, and that's just because I hate seeing him in OU and don't want to encourage his use :P.

The SpA, as everyone else has said, is supposed to be a joke. 35 was aesthetically pleasing and looked less retarded than my original 30, plus it made the BST a pretty 475 and kept Special Sweepiness in "bad" range.

The last stat to address, oh boy: Defense. Remember, in Doug's post, there were three main goals for our CAP, and the third was to remove hazards. That's where my Defense comes in. Basically, spinning is a sac of momentum while the opponent switches to the Pokemon that best threatens your team. There are a couple pokemon that are absolute behemoths to a sun team, and I wanted to be able to beat as many as possible with one set assuming no prior damage (ie they came in on a spin):
Quote:
 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Clefable: 312-368 (73.58 - 86.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 44+ SpD Clefable: 283-335 (66.74 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Clefable: 297-351 (70.04 - 82.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Clefable: 310-366 (73.11 - 86.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (superpower KOes but is taught how to Duggy)
Basically, the defense was chosen so that, should you choose a dedicated Rapid Spinner Lum purely defensive set, you will lose momentum to the minimum possible amount of Pokemon while you spin, while being within the realm of reason (but you will sacrifice your ability to full stop Latis and Politoed if they are Specs sets, and your offense will be pretty weak).
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Last edited by Pwnemon; Mar 8th, 2013 at 9:22:47 PM.

 Mar 4th, 2013, 11:39:18 PM #10 The Reptile     Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 696 Gotta Go Goat! WIP 108 HP / 80 ATK / 55 DEF / 35 SPA / 130 SPD / 102 SPE PT: 105.2490 Above Average ST: 235.4968 Amazing PS: 127.6642 Good SS: 69.4218 Poor BSR: 290.2597 Good BST: 505 Justifications (Also WIP) HP / Def / SpD Let's start with the more important stats on the list imo, the bulk. With 108 / 55 / 130 bulk, he has enough PT to take on resisted hits, however, strong neutral STAB moves will kill it (TTar and DNite being the main examples of strong netural STAB that's physical). I made the Special Defense high for one main reason: To allow CaP 5 to have the option of investing in attack (which is also the reason for the attack, but I'll get into that later). A Max HP / Max SpD beats Specs Latios: Code: ```252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 205-243 (48.8 - 57.85%) -- 53.52% chance to 2HKO -2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 103-123 (24.52 - 29.28%) -- possible 5HKO 4 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 200-236 (66.22 - 78.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO``` As you can see, with Max / Max +, CaP 5 beats Specs Latios. Meanwhile... Code: ```252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 202-238 (48.09 - 56.66%) -- 34.38% chance to 2HKO 4 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 318-374 (82.81 - 97.39%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock``` ...it also beats SpecsToed. However, it cannot beat Tyrantiar unless it runs Max Attack, and it needs decent rolls to do so (or prior damage, I guess): Code: ```252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 444-523 (105.71 - 124.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO 4 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 230-272 (59.58 - 70.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Lugia Power Whip vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 320-378 (82.9 - 97.92%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock``` __________________ Going around at the speed of Goat. Got places to roam Gotta follow my Gogoat PS! Username: DreMZ Last edited by The Reptile; Mar 6th, 2013 at 1:15:13 AM.
 Mar 4th, 2013, 11:55:15 PM #12 alexwolf King of Conquerors     Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,758 Greece Just a little heads-up to everyone that has an Attack stat close to 103, just make it 103 if possible, as with 103 Attack the CAP always 2HKOes max HP Latias after lefties and without SR with Crunch (53.29 - 63.18%). __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check! Last edited by alexwolf; Mar 5th, 2013 at 12:24:48 AM.
 Mar 5th, 2013, 5:50:09 AM #14 ginganinja Delena 4ever     Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3,147 In Love Capefeather I just have a small question regarding your speed on CAP 5. I understand that outrunning Specs Toed is very important for you, however I am not sure if CAP 5 would be able too, without losing a massive amount of its bulk which would impact on its ability to then check Specs Toed. The problem I can forsee is Specs Toed simply running max speed Modest therefore outspeeding and 2KOing CAP 5, which is sorta rendering your speed stat moot. If 75 speed isn't letting you outspeed Specs Toed (which from what I read seemed to be the point of that speed number) then why use that speed in the first place. Do you have plans to address max speed Specs Toed via your EV spread (this goes for everyone else including Deck Knight who picked 75 speed or more to "outrun" Specs Toed), or were you unaware that Specs Toed can and does run that much speed. (I personally run HP but whenever I run into 252 Speed Specs Toed on the ladder it screws me over). __________________
Mar 5th, 2013, 9:36:08 AM   #16
reachzero
the pastor of disaster

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,479
Long Island, New York
Base Stats you would gladly marry

Final Submission:

100 HP / 105 Atk / 55 Def / 50 SpA / 140 SpD / 65 Spe (BST 515)

PT: 99.03701
ST: 239.6697
PS: 121.7599
SS: 72.78916

Overall BSR: 286.775

Stat Reasoning:

I felt it was important to give CAP5 the ability to do what it had to do working with the most natural EV spread possible--252 HP/252 SpD/6 (anything) Careful--while putting it in the right ballpark in terms of speed to move up to speed-creep what it chooses to, while retaining its capacity to meet its baseline goals (i.e., beating Lati@s and Politoed).

For instance, one could choose to speed-creep the major benchmark for OU slow Pokemon (CB Tar, Jellicent, Specs Toed, etc.), 180, by investing to get up to 181 speed. This would produce the following spread, the subject of all future damage calculations.

CAP 5 @ Lum Berry
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpD / 60 Spe Careful
Stats: 404 HP / 246 Atk / 146 Def / 122 SpA / 401 SpD / 181 Spe

HP / Def / SpD:

100 HP/140 SpD gives CAP5 a clear and emphatic focus on taking special attacks, allowing it to tank Latios' Draco Meteor without a problem (50% - 58.9%). Latios can't guarantee a 2HKO with Life Orb HP Fire in Sun (43.6% - 51.5%). Since this spread can 2HKO even max HP Latias, this ensures that CAP5 will virtually always beat the Lati@s twins. This spread also means that CAP5 does great against Politoed, taking only 27.2% - 32.2% from Modest Specs Hydro Pump, and only 39.1% - 46% even if switching in on Specs Ice Beam. On the other hand, SpD Heatran does 46.5% - 55.4% in Sun to CAP5 with Lava Plume, meaning that CAP5 cannot stall out Heatran, an important consideration when discussing very large STank numbers (barring Leech Seed, which we'll talk about in the movepool stage, no doubt).

100 HP/55 Def gives up PTank comparable to that of Tentacruel, another Pokemon focused on SpD. Obviously Scizor can OHKO it easily with U-turn, but can also 2HKO it with Bullet Punch (64.9% - 76.5%) even if CAP5 is faster. Switching into CB Tyranitar is not an option, as CAP5 takes 44.1% - 52% from Choice Band Crunch and OHKOed by Stone Edge, but CAP5 could switch easily into SpD Tyranitar or weak attackers like Hippowdon.

Making CAP5 much weaker in its physical defenses means that many Pokemon can severely threaten it with even neutral attacks, while allowing it to wall the threats it is designed to counter.

Attack / Speed:

105 base attack is a logical number in that it allows CAP5 to 2HKO max HP Latias with uninvested Crunch (54.4% - 64.3%) and possibly OHKO max HP Politoed with Power Whip (89.1% - 105.2%). CAP5 2HKOs physically defensive Jellicent with Power Whip (68.48 - 80.89%). Interestingly, 105 is just enough attack to break SubCM Jirachi's Subs most of the time, doing (24.5 - 28.96%) to max HP Jirachi with Crunch.

65 Speed is carefully chosen. With no speed investment, CAP5 would naturally outspeed similarly uninvested Tyranitar and Jellicent, and tie with Scizor and Vaporeon. More importantly, it lets CAP5 get right into the middle of the speed creep game with Politoed, Tyranitar, Jellicent, Scizor, etc. Politoed can outcreep CAP5 by virtue of being naturally faster, but in the process will end up giving up a lot of bulk that will make it easier to kill for the rest of CAP5's team. I feel that 65 is an excellent fit in terms of dealing with the threats we have chosen, while remaining slower than Heatran. This is one of the major distinctives of my stat spread.

(thanks to Deck Knight, from whom I shamelessly pilfered the format)

Conclusion:

This spread allows CAP5 to hands-down counter the Lati@s twins and Politoed, while opening the door for physical threats to hurt it badly even with neutral attacks. It has enough attack to handily dispose of the threats it covers, but not enough to attack everything indiscriminately. Its speed is exactly sufficient to cover the slower section of OU, where Politoed and many of the other Water-type denizens dwell. It maintains a comfortably sane BST, 515, a number already familiar from a Pokemon with a similar role, Tentacruel. This is a stat spread you can believe in, that you can leave as a legacy for your children.
__________________
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat Aeroblacktyl who the hell is reachzero
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

(Proverbs 26:4-5)

 Mar 5th, 2013, 10:39:37 AM #18 Imanalt RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON     Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,407 VT, USA Final Submission 81/107/76/42/143/76 PT: 116.9 ST: 215.2 PS: 143.2 SS: 69.7 BSR: 294.4 Justifications: Lets start out simple with the defenses. 81/76/143 stats. I wanted to keep my hp low to increase the gain from maximizing hp and not investing in defenses, because i feel that a 252 hp/252+ atk spread allows us to simultaneously be able to tank the hits from rain pokemon and lati@s, while still being able to apply enough offensive pressure to allow sun teams to grab an advantage. Basically I went with enough bulk to always be able to survive dragon pulse from any boost level of latias, meaning it should ALWAYS be able to check it. Code: `+6 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 309-364 (84.42 - 99.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO` It also can easily survive one specs latios draco meteor, and can survive 2 scarfed dmeteors, allowing for it to be able to always beat scarf and put specs into a situation where it dies to either sucker punch if it stays in, or pursuit if it switches. Code: ```252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 169-199 (46.17 - 54.37%) -2 252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 84-100 (22.95 - 27.32%) 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 252-297 (68.85 - 81.14%)``` Obviously, Specs latios is a problem, but being able to avoid the 2hko from draco meteor is just not realistic, and we still are in a position where we have a good chance to threaten it, even if you lose a lot of hp in the process. I also kept the special bulk down at a low enough level that an offensive heatran in neutral weather can almost always ohko with fire blast. Code: `252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 318-374 (86.88 - 102.18%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock` The Defense stat was chosen to guarantee that Jolly Life Orb breloom will always oho with mach punch after stealth rocks. Code: `252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cap 5: 322-382 (87.97 - 104.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock` A low hp stat also has the added bonus of encouraging 252/0 hp spreads, as it means you get a higher percentage boost from the investment. Now onto the Attacking stats. Again for attack I worked primarily off of lati@s. 107 attack is essentially the minimum to ohko latios with no hazard damages. This also has the nice effect of always ohko'ing a switching cmlatias with two stealthrock damages with pursuit: Code: ```252+ Atk Cap 5 Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 302-356 (100 - 117.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Cap 5 Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 276-326 (75.82 - 89.56%)``` The attack is also enough to nearly always ohko Defensive politoed with power whip, and always ohko specs politoed with leaf blade should it have that: Code: ```252+ Atk Cap 5 Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 356-422 (92.7 - 109.89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Cap 5 Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 326-386 (84.89 - 100.52%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock``` The Special attack is mainly filler, keeping it low enough that Scizor won't be ohko'd by hidden power fire, and it also allows me to get a nice round number for my bst (525), which is always nice for optics. The speed is 76 to make it as hard as possible for specs politoed to speedcreep you, while still keeping cap 5 slower than hearten. __________________ ASB profile zfs: we are the knights who say nidoking http://pastebin.com/FrNB3Vg3 21:15 Cathy GreatSage is a known spammer Last edited by Imanalt; Mar 7th, 2013 at 5:28:24 PM.
 Mar 5th, 2013, 11:49:26 AM #19 capefeather Here's my mega plan: YOU DIE     Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,636 I'm a super fighting robot from the year 2010 So about max Speed Choice Specs Politoed... The way I see it, CAP 5 will always be in some amount of trouble against such powerful super-effective attacks without a Sitrus Berry, especially considering Focus Blast 2HKOes even stuff like reachzero's spread. So while I think that outrunning Politoed could be worthwhile so that the speed creeping pressure is more on it than on CAP 5, there's little point in trying to go all the way with the special bulk as well. I get the low speed + high special bulk angle, too, and I don't think that 70+ speed + high special bulk is really worth it, so I guess 70+ speed + lower special bulk is just what I have chosen. While I have those calcs against Life Orb Latios, obviously that's not an entirely consistent scenario, and it wasn't meant to be. I've put Life Orb Latios and Choice Specs Politoed in the same boat, really, in that you could perhaps beat them without Sitrus, but it would probably help greatly. Plus, that first Sitrus Berry is free regardless of the weather, and a Speed creeping Politoed has a greater chance of being wrecked by Power Whip. tbh I still am still thinking about the Speed stat and possibly the Attack stat, which is why I haven't marked the submission as final, but atm 75 seems like the Speed level with the fewest potential side effects. __________________ If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will always be empty. <+joshe> im a registered sex offender for up to calc 3 <%V4> Naruto is climaxing! <+Reflect_Suicune> i was thining of fucking jellicent for some reason
 Mar 5th, 2013, 1:08:45 PM #21 ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!     Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 710 Italy I agree wholeheartedly with ginga and jas; I'm not going to post a spread of mine since the ones already proposed are very similar to the one I'd propose; however, I would not be concerned too much in outspeeding Toed (unless one goes for the 110 base Speed benchmark, which even if I don't like it, is reasonable in a sense, but is clearly not related to Toed) since SpecsToed can easily run 252 Spe (which is not uncommon at all), and if we want to fulfill our Lati check role, we need the investment in special bulk. We can still hit ridiculously hard on the switch even uninvested, and some of the proposed spreads aren't even 2HKO'd by Specs Ice Beam (prolly noone is, if one chooses to run Sitrus). I'm not blaming those 75 Spe at all, just I'd like the submitters to elaborate a bit more on that choice in light of ginganinja's suggestion. __________________ Counter that Pokemon project: Mk III & Warstory | Mk IV RMTs: The HOutsiders (also the other ones if anyone likes lurking my old posts) Take a look at this before starting an argument Not accepting rating requests anymore. Sorry!
 Mar 5th, 2013, 2:18:27 PM #22 capefeather Here's my mega plan: YOU DIE     Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,636 I'm a super fighting robot from the year 2010 I'm glad that we've had a better discussion on the middling Speed ranges after the fast ranges were so thoroughly settled. I'm sure that more people will eventually come in and have better explanations for the 71-80 Speed range, and I'm sure that DarkSlay has something good going with his aim of outrunning all Wash Rotom. As for me, I have conceded and lowered the Speed a bit. I still think that 60+ is important for various reasons, but outrunning Politoed naturally looks less attractive than it did before. I think it would only be worth it on a spread if it outruns Wash Rotom like DarkSlay's spread. __________________ If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will always be empty. <+joshe> im a registered sex offender for up to calc 3 <%V4> Naruto is climaxing! <+Reflect_Suicune> i was thining of fucking jellicent for some reason
Mar 5th, 2013, 4:22:42 PM   #24
ganj4lF
Nobody is safe from the power of science!

Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 710
Italy

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn 90 HP / 80 Atk / 50 Def / 35 SpA / 130 SpD / 115 Spe encourage 252 spdef / 252 spe / 4 hp
I realize this is just a WIP, but I can't see how your spread encourages 252 SpD over 252 HP. Let's take SpecsToed's Ice Beam as benchmark:

252+ SpecsToed Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD CAP5: 158-188 (49.22 - 58.56%)
252+ SpecsToed Ice Beamvs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD CAP5: 192-228 (50 - 59.37%)

So you gain a minuscule amount of special bulk (like...0.5%? or something like that), but...lose quite a bit of physical bulk (okay, CAP5 won't be ever staying in on physical mons, but still...):

248+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP5 in rain: 158-186 (41.14 - 48.43%)
248+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP5 in rain: 158-186 (49.22 - 57.94%)

The example is completely random, it was just to show how the loss of very minimal special bulk can help CAP to take physical resisted attacks quite a bit better. I'd go 252 HP / 252 Spe almost blindly seeing your spec, maxing Special Defense makes close to no sense to me.
__________________
Counter that Pokemon project: Mk III & Warstory | Mk IV
RMTs: The HOutsiders (also the other ones if anyone likes lurking my old posts)

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Last edited by ganj4lF; Mar 5th, 2013 at 6:13:58 PM. Reason: typo

 Mar 5th, 2013, 5:37:56 PM #25 Admiral_Stalfos19     Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 379 Google it Needs more fastmons :/ 88HP/75Atk/61Def/35SAt/154SDf/130Spe Physical Tankiness: 100.1771 (Above Average) Special Tankiness: 243.6314 (Fantastic) Physical Sweepiness: 136.1366 (Good) Special Sweepiness: 71.8508 (Poor) BST: 543 BSR: 299.4041 (Good, nudging on Very Good) Proper explanations will come shortly, but for now, some key points about this spread. * Physical Tankiness is akin to Shiftry's * 2HKO's standard Latios with an invested Crunch the vast majority of the time (this can only be avoided if Lady Luck absolutely despises of the CAP5 user). Also outspeeds it without having to use Jolly as its nature, and can take 1.5 Draco Meteors from Specs varients with ease. * Outspeeds Politoed even if it tries to run Choice Scarf (which is rare and unorthodox for a Politoed, I know, but let's be safe :3). Also outspeeds Starmie, Ttar w/ a DD/Scarf, Dugtrio and both Lati twins of all things noteworthy. This is of course assuming Jolly and full EV investment. * Has 3 multiples of 5 in stats (apparently its what people like for whatever reason :/) * SAt sits at 35 to stop CAP5 users from getting any ideas w/ Hidden Power. __________________ Colossoil +5 vs 60...ish: The War Saga Episode 1: A Fresh Start Episode 2: Wings of Conflict: Coming WHEN IT'S DONE!!
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 Tags bessel's inequality, bw2, cap5, detroitlolcat