CAP 5 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions

***Birkal**** · Mar 4th, 2013, 10:06:12 PM

sorry, I got distracted by the art thread

Now we move into stat spread submissions! This is where we as a community get a chance to make our own stat spreads, comment on those made by others, and ultimately vote on what stats CAP 5 will have. Let's take a look at our BSR rating limits that we established in the previous thread:

Limits:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat DetriotLolcat

Physical Sweepiness: Limit is 145
Physical Tankiness: Limit is 135
Special Sweepiness: Limit is 75
Special Tankiness: Limit is 245

The BSR lower limit is 250, and the upper limit is 320.

BSR ABUSE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED AND WILL NOT BE SLATED!

BSR abuse is doing things like 150 HP and 70 Def/SpD to create a theoretical optimum with the limits that you have. The purpose of the stat rating limits is to restrict what submitters can do, not to give them a license to game the system. If you cannot justify your stats legitimately and have not proven that you aren't just making the best stats within the limits, you will not get slated.

A spreadsheet for calculating the biases can be found here. The formulas themselves can be found here. Do not use the BSR calculator on-site, as it is designed for DPP BSR. To use the spreadsheet, you will need Microsoft Excel 2007 or higher, OpenOffice.org Calc 3 or higher, or a similar spreadsheet program that can handle .xlsx files. Alternatively, you can upload the spreadsheet onto Google docs. At any rate, you must have the stat rating values listed correctly in your submission or it will be ignored for slate.

Here is CAP 5 so far:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Base Speed

Name: Type Equalizer

Description: A pokemon whose presence in the metagame increases the usage of one or more underused types and simultaneously decreases the usage of one or more overused types.

Justification: Take a look at the OU usage statistics for January and you'll see that 9 out of the top 10 pokemon have either steel, water, dragon or fighting as one of their types, and extending it to the top 20 shows 16/20 with those types. We should also be asking ourselves why these trends exist so strongly and what can be done about them. In creating this CAP, we'd have to discuss in depth many different aspects of what makes a type and opinions can ultimately being tested in the playtest.

Questions To Be Answered:

Is a types usefulness relative to the metagame or is it intrinsic? (Ie. Can any type be the "best" type given the right circumstances or do type match-ups, available STAB moves etc mean some types will always be better than others?)
What exploitable weaknesses do "good" types in OU have? Are their currently pokemon that can exploit them and if so, how do they function differently to CAP5?
How (if at all) will the targeted types adapt to the situation created? Will people choose different movesets, abilities, etc or will they just use them more/less? How is this linked to the way CAP5 functions strategically?
What effects will the changes on certain types' presence have on the metagame?
Which members of the targeted types will benefit and suffer from this most and why?
By creating CAP5, have we learnt any new ways to counter good types or use bad types?

Typing: Grass / Dark
Primary Ability: Harvest

srk1214 · Mar 4th, 2013, 10:09:16 PM

WIP:

90/100/60/45/130/75 (BST: 500)

PT: 99.7571 - Below Average (barely lol)
ST: 209.068 - Fantastic
PS: 132.263 - Good
SS: 72.5607 - Poor

BSR: 274.007 - Good

Nyktos · Mar 4th, 2013, 10:11:44 PM

Final Submission: 109 HP / 105 Atk / 52 Def / 50 SpA / 135 SpD / 44 Spe (495 BST)

PT: 100.21
ST: 244.71
PS: 96.02
SS: 63.87
BSR: 268.25

Justifications

Attack

Special Attack

Physical bulk

Special bulk

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 201-237 (47.63 - 56.16%) -- 81.64% chance to 2HKO (except not because of the SpA drop)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 156-184 (36.96 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Surviving two SpecsToed Ice Beams with rocks is important for the slower spreads, as even though sun has other switchins on Ice moves, we probably want to switch in on Toed twice. It's perhaps not essential to be guaranteed surviving the two beams after rocks, but reliability is nice. Meteor requires much less bulk than this to tank, but having more obviously doesn't hurt, and given how much fear there's been about meteors, I think taking 56% max is something that we as a community can appreciate.

Mine is one of the most specially bulky to be submitted, and indeed it rides close to the limit, but I would not have done anything different had the limit been higher. I think this is the right amount of special bulk to have, and I was one of the people who urged DetroitLolcat to raise the limit to where it ended up. There has been some concern on IRC about this calculation:

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 128-152 (30.33 - 36.01%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

This is shockingly low for a super-effective move, I agree. However, it doesn't actually matter that specially defensive Heatran takes some time to beat us provided it does beat us, which is something we can ensure at the movepool stage. It's true that with Sitrus Berry we can survive a long time, but we have to be worried about a burn (and even with perfect luck, we can't survive indefinitely so if we can't deal more damage than it heals with lefties we still lose). Lum would allow us to not care about that, but, well, Lava Plume has a lot more PP than Rest. There are a lot of moves that we can give it that would make this a win, but none of them are moves I would consider reasonable to simply assume we get.

Speed

Calculation Compendium

Offensive calcs

Defensive calcs

**Deck Knight** · Mar 4th, 2013, 10:17:26 PM

Final Submission:

83 HP / 92 Atk / 73 Def / 42 SpA / 156 SpD / 89 Spe (BST 535)

PT: 114.153
ST: 237.46
PS: 137.421
SS: 73.6857

Overall BSR: 305.962

Stat Reasoning:

Now, as everyone knows, I make Stats with a spread in mind.

CAP 5 @ Sitrus / Enigma Berry
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 156 SpD Careful
Stats: 370 HP / 245 Atk / 182 Def / 108 SpA / 425 SpD / 214 Spe.
Potential Set: (Note: Movepool is not decided at this stage all moves are speculative.)
-Power Whip
-Crunch
-Wish
-Rapid Spin

HP / Def / SpD:

HP:

The HP was selected primarily for the size of Wish, should CAP 5 get it. 83 is perfect for most sun threats, which lie in in the 73-80 range thanks to Veusaur and Ninetales, and of course Dugtrio would also appreciate a Wish. However, the HP is too small to really aid other playstyles. Most Rain Pokemon have more bulk in their HP and a far superior Wish option in Vaporeon, while many Sand threats like Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Landorus have HP's that start at 89 and climb up to and past 100. While CAP 5 is likely to invest in HP, it maxes at 370, which is enough for a 185 HP Wish. This is generally not enough healing for the very offensive Pokemon that eat HP through Life Orb (Terrakion/Keldeo's Base HP is 91, Hydreigon's 92, and most of the frailer Life Orbers are too, well, frail.) or for the very bulky invested defensive Pokemon like Politoed (Base 90), Vaporeon (Base 130), Jellicent/Tyranitar (Base 100), Hippowdon/Garchomp (Base 108), Mamoswine (Base 110), or Gastrodon (Base 111) of those styles.

To be sure such a Wish could still be used, but again Vaporeon is infinitely superior on Rain as a status-immune Wishpasser, and Sand Pokemon rarely get even 50% healing from CAP 5's Wish, nor do they like the additional Ice and Fighting weaknesses (along with limited offensive presence) CAP 5 would bring to their teams. Ground and Water resistances along with Dark STAB are not as helpful on a team with Landorus and Tyranitar as they are on a Sun team.

Def / SpD:

This left Defense and Special Defense, and I particularly like what these calcs do with Sitrus Berry or Enigma Berry.

Sample Sitrus/Enigma interactions

I'll get to why these berries are better than LumRest when I get into Attack. the summary is that CAP5 needs the stated Attack investment for the guaranteed 2HKO on Latias, so although you could Max/Max+ CAP 5 and try to tank with LumRest, Latias would start presenting problems.

An interesting note is how CAP 5 interacts with Landorus-T, which can technically 2HKO CAP 5 through Sitrus on this spread. The Calc is:

Landorus-T (OU Rock Polish) Stone Edge 59.45 - 70% Earthquake 44.32 - 52.43%

So if Earthquake hits 48, and then 52 it can KO. It can't KO through hazards though, and Stone Edge cannot 2HKO through Sitrus, though it can through Enigma as it isn't SE. Scarf Lando OHKOs with U-turn and Superpower both.

To address why LumRest will not be overpowered with such a high ST, I have tried to build this set to raise the viability of other berries, and additionally I have engineered it so that specific support moves that may be useful later will benefit primarily Sun Pokemon. To do this I had to lower HP and raise Special Defense. I think as a pivot to glue Sun together, Wish is a perfectly viable move to consider when creating a spread, and the lower HP compared to defenses makes Horn Leech marginally more formidable as a STAB because it heals an absolute number of HP. The general physical frailty also allows Pokemon with as low as 100 Base Attack like Scarf Victini to have a minimum 97% Chance to OHKO with U-turn.

Finally about the actual SpD number. Defenses in Pokemon have a lot more latitude than other stats. Several Pokemon have 150+ Physical defenses and are not even close to overpowered (Aggron, Cloyster, Steelix, Bastiodon, Regirock), I'm essentially trying to create a Pokemon like that with an emphasis on Special Defense.

For a more full picture, here are selections from this spread's Defensive Calcs:

Defensive Calcs (Assumes Sunny Day)

Defensive Calcs (Assumes Rain Dance)

Attack / Speed:

Now for an explanation on relevant offenses. Basically, I did not want CAP 5 to have a viable Choice Band set, so I set its Attack to below 95, and its Speed to below 90. At 89 Speed, Politoed would have to invest 156 EVs to outrun CAP 5. Politoed is not going to give up over half its EVs in bulk on a Specs Set just to hit CAP 5 twice under any realistic scenario. 89 Is also an excellent speed because of several threats sitting just above it at 90 Speed, Lucario and Roserade - both have Super-effective STAB attacks against CAP 5, and Roserade also has Sun Weather Ball. By making it impossible for CAP 5 to tie these Pokemon, the viability of any choice set is reduced.

The maximum speed is also important here, as a +Spe CAP5 can outrun +SpA Hydreigon - and it will have a few EVs to spare to invest in offense or defenses. The speed also comfortably outruns all defensive variants of Rotom-W. In order to outspeed all +Spe Base 70s, 104 EVs are needed. The final off-effect is is makes certain CB Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball always OHKOs, though the standard Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball cannot 2HKO through Sitrus and rarely through Leftovers.

As far as the attack itself, it can take on Latios fairly easily, but it needs investment to really take on Latias. Here are a few relevant STAB Calcs assuming offensive coverage of Power Whip / Crunch /Low Kick (as a move over Wish or Spin) / and the mentioned EVs (245 Atk):

Sample Offensive Calcs

Alternate Spread:

Given the general power of LumRest, I have devised an additional Sun Support set that is more offensive in nature.

CAP 5 @ Lum Berry
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD Careful
Stats: 337 HP / 283 Atk / 182 Def / 108 SpA / 420 SpD / 214 Spe.
Potential Set: (Note: Movepool is not decided at this stage all moves are speculative.)
-Horn Leech
-Sunny Day
-Rest
-Punishment

A set designed with CM Latias in mind. It is capable of switching in, setting up sun, and avoiding a 2HKO from Sun-boosted HP Fire. Should you come in on the Calm Mind in the Sun, use Rest immediately, since you can survive the 2HKO, but it's less likely with hazard damage. If Latias goes for the second CM, Punishment effortlessly OHKO's it. In any other weather, use Sunny Day to get your sun back. Horn Leech is a bit riskier since it gets only marginal healing. The best part is, even though you're opening up the fire weakness in Sunny Day, Harvest makes this set work because it essentially makes Lum Berry permanent. If you set up Sun you will always be status immune, even if you get statused before or after Rest. The Lum Berry will always grow back. Additionally since there are so may Sun Pokemon with Sunny Day, and CAP5 offers a suitable threat to Tyranitar (Low Kick would be needed to OHKO, however Horn Leech 2HKOs CBTar after SR. It requires some smart play, but since Sunny Day activates after Tar switches in, overpowering it with your Sun special attackers will be easier. You can also Sub to eat the first Superpower, and then Horn Leech comfortably 2HKOs. There is some 4MSS syndrome, but the idea here is pick your targets. Punishment/Crunch beats Latis, Low Kick beats Tar, Horn Leech expedites beating Toed and is generally the most helpful.)

This set has to be more wary of Specs Latios, since Specs DM can 2HKO with Hazards up, so unlike the first set (assuming Sitrus) it can't come in with impunity [this is arguably an asset overall], however it can tank the attack if it is already in, and Punishment does cleanly 2HKO all variants of Latios. The low PP is an issue, but Horn Leech on the other end addresses that.

Once in, this set threatens Politoed with a combination of status immunity and healing, being able to shrug off even SpecsToed attacks via Horn Leech healing enough to keep out of KO range (watch out for Focus Blast's SpD drop.) It's true Politoed can try and outspeed with 156 EVs in Spe and 100 in HP, which will allow it to avoid a chance of OHKO after Stealth Rock (and KO CAP 5 with Ice Beam if SR is on our side of the field) - but that's a generally assinine thing to do because absolutely nothing valuable but CAP 5 sits at 214 Spe. It won't stop people from trying it, but it causes Politoed to lose to other things. You can circumvent this entirely by running 148 Atk and 104 Spe EVs, but that makes the matchup with CM Latias harder by allowing Latias to Recover-stall out Punishment's PP reliably - it needs the BP boost to reliably 2HKO.

In general with LumRest, do not assume you can switch in unscathed. Unlike Sitrus, the set doesn't have anything approximating passive healing, so it can tank easily once in, but is harder to get in safely against highly specific, damage-boosted threats.

The set itself is much more a hybrid of offense and defense. It rarely gets OHKOs, however it has a multitude of 2HKOs and its Horn Leech can break SubDisable Gengar's Sub. Here are some relevant offensive and defensive calcs:

Offensive Calcs

Defensive Calcs (Assume Sun)

I'm trying not to be too overgrown in the calcs, but I think its important to represent threats that may rise based on CAP 5's usage, and in this set particularly since it offers sun support. While it could theoretically be used as a Spinner in other weathers, as you see from the defensive calculations, LumRest is hardly invulnerable (and HATES HP loss from Sandstorm), and even if you used the more defensive spread above, you still have a lot of issues due to limited power. This set is particularly good for picking off the Psychic-type Calm Minders in the metagame, and using a combination of Lum Rest and Horn Leech on switch-ins to stay healthy. Low Kick could be used over Sunny Day or even Horn Leech to change some matchups (particularly against Tyranitar and other Dark types, but as you can see from the offensive calculations, even EVs for Attack CAP 5 is not even remotely close to a sweeper.

Conclusion:

This spread steps all over Lati@s and Politoed, but does so in a way that affords it few other niches. It is not strong enough to be an offensive powerhouse. Its speed acts much better as a floor than it does a ceiling. It does not have enough physical bulk to be a general wall. Its entire spread is geared around support to and from Sun Pokemon with the maximum number of potential options.

Aesthetically it is actually rather balanced, having a huge special defense offset by a small but existent Special Attack exactly 50 points below its Attack. It is a Pokemon geared around a single defining strong point customized to aid a specific style of play, and I hope it earns your votes.

**capefeather** · Mar 4th, 2013, 10:21:12 PM

Final Submission

"Vaporeon of the sun"

95 HP / 100 Atk / 60 Def / 50 SpA / 130 SpD / 65 Spe

PT: 103.6304949955 (Above Average)
ST: 216.1776890862 (Fantastic)
PS: 116.7426879311 (Above Average)
SS: 72.789163561 (Poor)
BSR: 271.2012056165 (Good)
BST: 500

I say "Vaporeon of the sun" because I used the Eeveelution base stats as a base and adjusted them. When Harvest won the poll, I knew I wanted to use Vaporeon as a base. However, I guess that this result is kind of different from Vaporeon... Anyway, because of this methodology, this spread:

only has one stat over 100! Outstanding
has a lower BST than Kitsunoh! Excellent
works with the ability we chose! ~SPARKLING~

The last point is very, very important to the reasoning behind this submission, so please keep it in mind!

HP / Defense

HP / Special Defense

So now for the important part. I wouldn't be surprised if my submission became the one of the least specially bulky of the bunch, but it's still well above Latias's level. Check it out, the most relevant damage calculations for this spread (and possibly others):

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 205-243 (52.03 - 61.67%)
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 103-123 (26.14 - 31.21%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 179-212 (45.43 - 53.8%)
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 90-107 (22.84 - 27.15%)

This spread has barely enough bulk to take on Stealth Rock damage and two Draco Meteors from Life Orb Latios and live to tell about it... if it runs maximum EVs and a Careful nature. I have intentionally made it so that this spread cannot reliably take on Choice Specs Latios in the same way. In fact, the median damage for two Choice Specs Draco Meteors is 337, just shy of the 345 HP that 252 HP CAP 5 would have after Stealth Rock damage. 125 SpD would have put the median at 346.

The reason for this is simple: I want to force CAP 5 to use Harvest intelligently to do its job based on the rest of the team's needs. If CAP 5 wants to take on Choice Specs Latios's Draco Meteor reliably, it must use a Sitrus Berry, which will supercharge its effective tanking ability to ridiculous levels. It would also help against Life Orb special attackers, since it's not like CAP 5 will come in at full HP guaranteed. Alternatively, take Lum Berry to counter defensive variants of Politoed and Wash Rotom, and let Choice Specs Latios 2HKO you. I mentioned the median because I want the matchup against Choice Specs to have a similar probability of CAP 5's survival between having no Sitrus Berry (a bit above 50%) and not having sun up (50%).

A major benefit with this approach is that the consistency of Harvest ends up mattering a lot more. I'm actually kind of bewildered at the idea of high Fantastic or even Amazing grade special bulk. Consider that a more defensive Pokemon will eat more turns, which means that the inconsistency of Harvest outside of sun is less harmful to a more defensive Pokemon than it is to a less defensive Pokemon. With this more focused spread, the sun becomes that much more important to the usefulness of Harvest as an ability on a sun team, as well as the usefulness of the sun team to Harvest. Besides, does a sun team really need a Pokemon that can completely and utterly counter Latios/Latias and defensive Water-types simultaneously?

A prevailing attitude that I've been seeing is that Harvest is a dangerous and unpredictable ability, therefore we should be very careful, even paranoid, about every aspect of CAP 5 going forward. I disagree with that view. I hope that I have convinced you that the best way to get the most out of the actual concept is to make the best use of its ability. For me, that means making Harvest part of the balancing process, rather than balancing in spite of Harvest. Harvest is our friend, not our enemy, and I feel that some people who were really against Harvest in the ability stage are missing this point.

Attack

Overall special tanking capability

Let's see how CAP 5 fares against some of our other targets:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 202-238 (51.26 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 158-188 (40.1 - 47.71%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom) in sun: 270-320 (68.52 - 81.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 173-204 (43.9 - 51.77%) -- 9.77% chance to 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom) in sun: 148-176 (37.56 - 44.67%) -- 3.91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 230-270 (58.37 - 68.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 127-150 (32.23 - 38.07%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 211-250 (53.55 - 63.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 107-126 (27.15 - 31.97%) -- 66.09% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 130-154 (32.99 - 39.08%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 122-144 (30.96 - 36.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Fully invested CAP 5 can take most of Choice Specs Politoed's attacks pretty well. It also survives the strongest attack that Calm Mind Latios can muster against it after a boost, which is enough time to bring it into Life Orb kill range with 80 Base Power STAB. Now, Calm Mind Latias does have a slight chance to 2HKO with Hidden Power Fire after Stealth Rock, but by then you know it's not running Substitute. It's just not a reliable way to break through a sun team that probably also has Heatran, and CAP 5 could always be running Sitrus Berry, too!

The rest of the calculations are for investment in HP only, and it shows that CAP 5 could feasibly sacrifice its ability to tank the very strongest attacks it would typically switch into, in order to put those EVs and nature to use elsewhere (and of course there's always Sitrus Berry, too). CAP 5 does not need much to KO Latios with the help of passive damage. It can still mostly tank Choice Scarf variants of Politoed and Keldeo, as well as Choice Specs Keldeo unless it uses an easily exploitable Ice-type move. So while my submission is rather minimalist in comparison to other submissions, it retains some semblance of customization, especially with an ability as versatile as Harvest.

Speed

Special Attack

I'm aware that I'm probably taking some significant risks here, but I am anticipating a wave of similar spreads that are similar to each other, and I feel that it would benefit the process as a whole to have this option available. I'm not sure there's anything I could really change about this submission without messing something up.

alexwolf · Mar 4th, 2013, 10:31:53 PM

Final Submission:

91 HP / 82 Atk / 66 Def / 34 SpA / 140 SpD / 112 Spe

PT: 110.156 (Above Average)
ST: 226.007 (Amazing)
PS: 144.401 (Good)
SS: 69.1701 (Poor)

BSR: 297.506 (Good)
BST: 525

Reasoning:

Why this PT and ST?

...

The combined PT and ST allow the CAP to take certain attacks. Here is what i mean (certain attacks vs the CAP):

Modest Scarf Politoed's Ice Beam: 34.71 - 40.93%, never a 2HKO after SR. The CAP then OHKOes with Power Whip after SR and 8 EVs in Attack (87.85 - 103.42%)
Modest Specs Politoed's Ice Beam: 51.29 - 60.62%, never a 2HKO after the CAP uses Horn Leech with 8 Atk EVs, without SR (Horn Leech does 178 damage min to 252 HP Politoed)
Specs Latios's Draco Meteor: 66.32 - 78.49%, never a OHKO after SR and sandstorm damage, so that the CAP can wall Latios with Rest as DM gets weaker and weaker
LO Starmie's Ice Beam: 43.78 - 51.81%, guaranteed 2HKO after SR. This is something positive actually, as i don't want the CAP to surefire counter Starmie, in addition to Politoed, especially if the CAP is going to have Pursuit. I think we should at least leave to Starmie a fighting chance against us. On the other hand, two LO Ice Beams is the only way that Starmie has to 2HKO the CAP, as the CAP can even survive a rain boosted Hydro Pump + Ice Beam after SR, still making for an excellent switch-in to any variant of Starmie.
Scarf or Leftovers Keldeo's Secret Sword: 101.03 - 118.65%, unconditional OHKO. I don't think that the CAP should survive and act as a last minute answer to Leftovers or Scarf Keldeo, barely taking the hit and then OHKOing back. Not without defense investment and Chople Berry at least.
CB Tyranitar's Stone Edge: 100.25 - 118.13%, unconditional OHKO. Same case with Keldeo. If for some reason Ttar stays into the CAP it should always OHKO back. The sun team would trap Ttar with Dugtrio after anyway, so wouldn't it suck for the Ttar player to make such a sacrifice only for what is supposed to be a physically defensive frail mon to barely survive and possibly come back to life after, which is not that hard to do with such a big Speed stat? After all the CAP has the same PT as Gliscor's ST, which is considered frail on the special side and is usually OHKOed by strong STAB attacks, so the same should be true for the CAP.
LO Jolly Breloom's Mach Punch: 93 - 109.84%, OHKO after SR. No need to explain a lot here. This is the weakest Techinican Breloom one can encounter and it should always be able to revenge kill the CAP assuming standard conditions (SR on the field).

So this pretty much is my reasoning for the PT and ST. Enough special bulk for the CAP to wall what we want it to (Lati@s, Politoed, and Starmie being the strongest of those Pokemon), and enough physical bulk for the CAP to switch into uninvested resisted STAB moves while still dying to powerful neutral physical hits (CB Tyranitar's Stone Edge) or super effective strong hits (Breloom's Mach Punch).

Why this Speed?

...

Why this PS and SS?

...

Possible Sets:

Fast Pivot

EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 Spe with a Jolly Nature
Stats: 386 HP / 202 Atk / 168 Def / 93 SpA / 316 SpD / 354 Spe
Possible moveset: Power Whip or Horn Leech / Crunch or Punishment / Rest / Rapid Spin
Item: Lum Berry

What this set does

Bulky Pivot

EVs: 252 HP / 164 Atk / 80 SpD / 12 Spe with a Careful Nature
Stats: 386 HP / 241 Atk / 168 Def / 93 SpA / 369 SpD / 263 Spe
Possible moveset: Power Whip or Horn Leech / Payback or Pursuit / Rest or Sub / Rapid Spin
Item: Lum Berry / Sitrus Berry

What this set does

Finally, before i finish, i want to explain why there was some poll jumping in my reasoning section. The moves i took as givens are Punshment, Crunch, Power Whip, Rapid Spin, and Rest, which i got the idea from irc that everyone agrees that the CAP should have. So i felt that i could include those moves to show some specific examples, to better make my point. However, that's not to say that if any of those moves isn't picked my stat spread won't be good, as every stat that was chosen has a general purpose.

So my stat spread will create a fast, specially bulky, and somewhat versatile pivot to handle Water-types and Lati@s mainly, which is exactly what sun teams need!

DarkSlay · Mar 4th, 2013, 10:43:23 PM

FINAL SUBMISSION

DarkSlay's CAP5 Stat Spread Submission
NOTE: TL;DR version of descriptions can be found at the end. Please read if you have the time, though!

HP: 90
ATK: 95
DEF: 68
SpA: 40
SpD: 145
SPE: 87

PT: 112.51
ST: 232.119
PS: 141.548
SS: 71.0547

BST: 525
Overall BSR: 302.44

INTRODUCTION:

Hello everyone, DarkSlay here with another go at a stat submission for our beloved CAP projects. This time, we've selected a concept that specifically is tailored to deal with certain threats in an effort to change the metagame literally - type usage, to be exact. We have the threat lists, we have our goal (to increase the usage of Sun through eliminating Rain and the Lati twins), and we have our primary ability. One question now remains: how are we going to accomplish our offensive and defensive goals? How will we help Sun teams conquer in the OU tier through CAP5, and how will we eliminate our targets? My stat spread is specifically designed to not only pertain to the concept, but allow the player to customize the Pokemon so that he can deal with our intended targets in different ways. It has the option to add on extra defense through EV's to ease hits from Lati@s just enough. It also has the ability to run enough offensive EV's to guarantee certain KO's against those same Pokemon. Essentially, this spread's main focus is to show that there is more than one way to deal with targets without straying away from the concept.

THE STATS:

HP: As some of you may or may not be aware, CAP projects in the past have predominantly featured projects with a high level of HP, due to the general "overall" bulk the CAP receives as a result. I am a proponent of increasing the individual defensive stats, especially in cases where we're looking for polarization, rather than increasing the HP stat. We know that the community wants to beat opposing types that commonly specialize in Special attacks (Water, Psychic, Ghost, Electric), while having a vulnerability towards typings that rely on Physical attacks (Steel, Fighting, Bug, etc.). To me, this dictates a sub-100 base HP stat. However, since CAP5 has been primarily discussed as a "bulky" answer to some of the top threats we're trying to face, it's also important that it can tank a few resists and neutral attacks in the process. Therefore, an HP stat of 90 seems optimal in this situation. If one were to define a 90 base HP value, it would probably be "average" or "solid". Not bad, but not great either. It allows for polarization while still maintaining a solid, bulky build. To me, per the concept, that's what we need.

ATK: It seems that the consensus of the community is that CAP5 will threaten opposing targets physically rather than specially, since most targets have decent SpD bulk naturally and/or access to Calm Mind. To this, I can agree with. However, in order for the concept to be successful, we must also tailor our offensive stats so that it doesn't become offensive enough in all situations. Therefore, without investment, I firmly believe that 2HKO's should be the goal against the Lati twins, and that kind of power is definitely enough to deal with targets. With investment, we should also be able to score near-guaranteed OHKO's barely. As a result, 95 is an ideal Attack stat in which we can guarantee certain KO ranges against some of the bigger threats we're trying to defeat. Here are some STAB calculations against some of our biggest targets:

Attack Calcs (Neutral Nature)

DEF: Like we've previously discussed, we're aiming for a lower physical defense value due to our desired checks/counters relying on the Physical spectrum (with exception of some of the more popular Fire types, which is a powerful typing in general anyway). Therefore, a low Defense stat is desired. 68 is definitely below average, where super effective Physical moves will more often than not gravely injure CAP5. I don't have a terrible amount more to say about this, since...yeah, obviously 90/68 defenses equate to our checks and counters winning against CAP5 physically. That said, here's a few (read: very few) calcs to back up my point at CAP5's lowest defensive investment:

Defense Calcs (Neutral Nature)

SpA: Oh thank goodness, a short section without need for calculations. We've pretty much determined that CAP5 is not going to have a competitively viable Special Attack, and 40 pretty much ensures that. Mine is "higher" than others for flavor reasons, mostly. 40 is a number that's common on some Pokes without it being too low. Enjoy this break from reading!

SpD: This is CAP5's largest stat, and for good reason: our desired targets are Special Attack monsters. Lati@s, Politoed, Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, Jolteon, and the slew of other Pokemon we want to lower in usage all rely on powerful/boosted STAB attacks that are in the Special category. While our typing does help us alleviate the Water and Psychic issue slightly, we still must deal with the common coverage moves these Pokemon possess, namely neutral moves like Dragon. However, we must also realize that too big of a Special Defense stat could hurt the ability of some of our selected checks and counters as well. When stat spreads were first being developed, a lot of spreads had the bulk to survive Heatran's Fire Blast in certain situations. That's not good. Therefore, combined with the rather average 90 HP stat, a 145 SpD stat gives CAP5 ample amount of bulk to survive monstrous hits from Draco Meteors and the like while its other attributes, like Harvest, peacefully cooperate as a unit to take out our targets. Not only that, but since all the stats emphasize customization, there's a good chance that all of the neutral/resisted attacks we want to tank will be tailored to prevent OHKO's and 2HKO's any which way we see fit. Here's a good number of calcs demonstrating the magnitude of CAP5's Special bulk with zero investment:

Special Defensive Calculations (Neutral Nature)

SPE: I've been asked to provide good analysis as to why my selected speed of 87 was chosen as the correct Speed for CAP5, so here we go! Apologies for the wall of words, but it's necessary.

First things first, let's focus on why I selected 87 in the first place. Historically, I take great care into selecting the Speed stat, as it's arguably the most influential stat in determining which Pokemon can do (or not do) something against the CAP project. We want to out-speed Pokemon we absolutely don't want to have any advantage over us, while we want to be slower than Pokemon that are unnecessary per the concept, are 100% dealt with in other ways, are threats to the project because of their Speed, or a combination of these factors. Our targets are Water, Psychic, Electric, and Ghost types. Most popular Electric types are fast, but we deal with them defensively well enough. Ghost are either fast and frail (Gengar) or bulky and slow (Jellicent), the former being dealt with offensively while the latter should be slower than CAP5. Water types like Politoed are also generally slow, and I agree that we need to be faster than Politoed.

Where the buck stops in terms of which Pokemon we should absolutely out-Speed, though, should be Rotom-W. Rotom-W is a very unique Pokemon, in that it runs a variety of sets with different roles to take out the same targets (seem familiar?). Rotom-W, however, is infamous for a few major things, mainly Volt Switch and Will-O-Wisp. The former is all about easing prediction for the opponent. If Rotom-W is faster, it has the ability to freely switch out against all non-Ground match-ups and scout most of the opponent's actions on that same turn. Therefore, if Rotom-W out-speeds CAP5, it still succeeds in its job as a scout/momentum shifter and will make life harder for CAP5 as opposed to it being slower. Second point is Will-O-Wisp: If Rotom-W is faster, CAP5 is more susceptible to burns. Simple as that. While CAP5 can run Lum, facing off against Rotom-W teams (Rain teams) will require Lum, limiting item options for dealing with other threats to Sun. I don't think we want that. Anything faster than Rotom-W is either wanted to be faster or irrelevant to the concept, point blank. My set deals with Lati@s in other ways, and both of them are offensive threats to CAP5 that can win only through damage, so speed is irrelevant in these match-ups. Nothing else should be out-sped. Meanwhile, being slower than certain targets makes facing our selected victims tougher for CAP5. It has the potential, in fact, to not change the role of certain Pokemon for Rain teams (Rotom-W in general) and allow Rain/targets to be more successful against CAP5/Sun. That should be reason enough to set an appropriate benchmark.

One last thing I want to address in terms of Speed: common sets that do not run certain EV spreads for Speed are irrelevant. This concept is all about changing the metagame. If CAP5 can adapt, so can our targets. If Rotom-W doesn't normally go 252 Timid, that does not mean it never will. Instead of focusing on what's popular now, we should be focusing on the Pokemon themselves and make the player choose what he or she thinks is an appropriate investment for CAP5. What 87 Speed does, though, is guarantee that there is a possibility for CAP5 to always be faster than Rotom-W. If the player desires this and/or if the metagame shifts, that should be an available option.

TL;DR:

...

Pwnemon · Mar 4th, 2013, 10:46:09 PM

Final Submission

110 HP / 105 ATK / 60 DEF / 35 SpA / 125 SpD / 35 Spe (BST 475)

PT: 115.6968
PS: 87.3985
ST: 238.3497
SS: 49.8265
BSR: 259.7695

OK Reasoning:

First, the most important thing I think about this CAP that we need to realize: we can't just throw in another high-powered Pokemon and expect to achieve the concept. I used a really stupid analogy on IRC that people seemed to get: imagine OU as a pond. If we throw a big fat log in the pond, the water level will rise, but nothing will sink and nothing will disproportionally rise. If we drop some small, really dense rocks on certain targets of flotsam, they will fall and others will rise to take their place. In the same way, if we just drop a Pokemon with a good power level, it will fail to specialize, and threats will adapt around it rather than rising or falling. You can see this with the reintroduction of Garchomp: it was a generically powerful Pokemon, but it had no real counters, so the metagame shifted around it, but specific usages did not. Mamo rose a bit, but things remained pretty sturdy overall. We need to make something that does not just bump up the power level of OU a bit, but nukes certain Pokemon to oblivion and has not much of an answer for the rest of the meta (but still admirably supports its playstyle). This is the justification behind such a tailored (not BSR abusing, sheesh) spread.

In general, the spread was designed very intentionally so that there are three good stats to invest in: Atk, SpD, Def, (everyone will invest in HP) and you only get to pick one. I made it this way so that the CAP's role is as customizable for your team as possible; either as a big fatass wall that can tank special attacks or a Pokemon that can take hits and dish them back with some respectability, and it can choose to either be a fucking massive special wall or a good mixed wall (110/60 is surprisingly strong invested).

Basically, I want to give our CAP as many ways as possible to do its job of countering the latis, and provide it with some berry versatility while we're at it. I'm afraid that none of the faster spreads would be able to run Rest in their movepool, because they would be virtually impossible to KO, and while the middling speed spreads don't really run into this problem, middling speed is so... middling. I'll be honest, I took it as a personal challenge to make a stat spread that could function perfectly well within ten points of the low boundary for BSR, and I know I succeeded.

I'm going to cut the crap here and be candid: I made this stat spread almost entirely with our big three in mind. That is, CAP5 can counter the Latis with almost any set, as long as none of them are 252 Atk Lum. If 252 Atk Lum could beat our big three, we would have to remove rest from the movepool, at least in my opinion. That's because 252 Atk Lum sets would kind of derail our concept by becoming, instead of a niche counter, a strong attacker that is rarely ohkoed, and I don't want that. I want the spread to have to work to do what it does, so it can't do other things besides.

Quote:

252 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 140-166 (46.35 - 54.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD (custom): 186-220 (43.86 - 51.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (adjusted for two hits)

So as you can see, while 252 Atk is the only spread that reliably KOes Latias, it comes at a price: namely, the price of being able to switch in—If you carry lum.

If CAP5 runs Sitrus, it will survive and OHKO.
If CAP5 invests in Special Defense, it can Rest and tank Latios DM forever. It loses a decent amount of power, but it will never die.

Quote:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Claydol: 168-198 (39.62 - 46.69%) -- 32.42% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (adjusted for two hits)

If CAP5 runs some sort of sitrus + max SpD subseed set? It lives. (and 2hkoes with crunch)

Quote:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Claydol: 205-243 (48.34 - 57.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (NOT adjusted)

So with my spread, we can give CAP5 rest without worrying at all about lumrest 252HP/252Atk becoming the standard set and being able to wall everything. It will still be a good set in its own right, too—just unable to switch in on Specs Latios. Oh, and for all the above sets vs toed:

Quote:

252 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 428-506 (111.45 - 131.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD (custom): 192-228 (45.28 - 53.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The same exact scenario occurs. A sitrus attacker, a special wall with lum, or a special wall with Sitrus can all beat Politoed, but 252 Atk Lum cannot:

Quote:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 158-188 (37.26 - 44.33%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (2% fatality on the lum wall, sue me)

I'm still by all means convinced that lum+attack will be a good set. but i'm not worried about it dominating, because it downgrades our status on our two most important targets from "counter" to "check." This will, I hope, pigeonhole our CAP into its desired roles instead of letting it grow into some monster we never expected (like Tomohawk did when we had a similar concept of 'beat exca and blaziken').

As for the speed: I wanted to drop it low enough so that investment in it is in no way a possibility in any way, shape, form, etc. Fast HydraRest with good defensive stats has been proven, in manaphy, to be broken (even in gen IV), and that thing doesn't have Rapid Spin. The middling speeds were OK, but being able to outrun Politoed would ruin the whole point I made above; you would no longer need to survive and 2hko, you could run lum+attack and still demolish politoed. So I figured, why not drop the speed pretty damn low? The only benchmark I wanted to beat was Wobbuffet, and that's just because I hate seeing him in OU and don't want to encourage his use :P.

The SpA, as everyone else has said, is supposed to be a joke. 35 was aesthetically pleasing and looked less retarded than my original 30, plus it made the BST a pretty 475 and kept Special Sweepiness in "bad" range.

The last stat to address, oh boy: Defense. Remember, in Doug's post, there were three main goals for our CAP, and the third was to remove hazards. That's where my Defense comes in. Basically, spinning is a sac of momentum while the opponent switches to the Pokemon that best threatens your team. There are a couple pokemon that are absolute behemoths to a sun team, and I wanted to be able to beat as many as possible with one set assuming no prior damage (ie they came in on a spin):

Quote:

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Clefable: 312-368 (73.58 - 86.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 44+ SpD Clefable: 283-335 (66.74 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Clefable: 297-351 (70.04 - 82.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 212 Def Clefable: 310-366 (73.11 - 86.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (superpower KOes but is taught how to Duggy)

Basically, the defense was chosen so that, should you choose a dedicated Rapid Spinner Lum purely defensive set, you will lose momentum to the minimum possible amount of Pokemon while you spin, while being within the realm of reason (but you will sacrifice your ability to full stop Latis and Politoed if they are Specs sets, and your offense will be pretty weak).

***Birkal**** · Mar 4th, 2013, 10:54:11 PM

Final Submission

Co-written by Birkal and ginganinja

115 HP / 100 Atk / 60 Def / 40 SpA / 130 SpD / 55 Spe

(BST 500)

BSR
PT: 119
ST: 244
PS: 103
SS: 59
BSR: 282

Let's chat about Speed. I chose 55 Spe (same as Machamp and Blissey) because it's essentially useless, but can have use if you're looking to do something specific. Max speed hits 209 or 229, depending on whether you run a boosting nature or not. Essentially, you can choose to outrun uninvested Tyranitar, Politoed, and even Heatran if you like. I think it's healthy to have some utility for speed, because it allows CAP 5 to outspeed specific threats if the team calls for it, but does not force it. If your sun team has problems with Bulky Politoed, it might not be amiss to invest in that extra speed to beat it. It's definitely not as optimal as investing in bulk, but the option is available to keep opponents on their toes.

Naturally, it outspeeds defensive threats like Ferrothorn, Chansey, Forretress, Bronzong, Donphan, Reuniclus, Hippowdon, and Slowbro. This is also better than some of the spreads that completely sacrifice speed to favor other sets; those spreads will likely require EVs to outspeed some of these threats to use whatever support moves it may have.

• • •

The focus of my spread is that CAP 5 will have to choose what it wants to beat with its EVs and berry selection. You can outpace some of those defensive threats if you choose to invest in the EVs. Otherwise, you can invest in some bulk. Below are some calculations that work off of two spreads: Physically Bulky and Specially Bulky. Both assume sunlight.

Physically Bulky Calculations

There's a lot of cool stuff you can do with this spread defensively. Notably, you can survive against non-Specs Keldeo and CB Haxorus Outrage. Combine this with the possibilities of Harvest with LumRest, pinch berries, or Cutsap Berry, and there are some effective tactics you can pull off here. Going physically bulky doesn't sacrifice special bulk either. CAP 5 can still hold its own against most variants of Politoed and tank any hit from Latios. This spread allows CAP 5 to be an overall stop to many offensive threats while under the sun (the ones listed above are merely the close calls; CAP 5 can wall a plethora of other moves with this spread), which is something most sun teams would appreciate greatly in a defensive pivot.

Specially Bulky Calculations

This set sacrifices some situations against physical attackers for sheer special bulk. Going toe-to-toe with Latios is no small feat, but this set accomplishes it. Specs HP Fire in the sun is the only move that can 2HKO, which takes a lot of relief off of sun teams in particular. SubCM Latias is useless against this set, especially in tandem with Lum Berry under the sun. It even has the potential to take on Heatran in the sun, which is pretty impressive, considering CAP 5 is Grass-type. All special attackers are forced into Focus Blast if they're looking for a 2HKO, and that gives sun teams some flexibility in terms of fishing for a miss or misprediction.

Berry Specific Calculations

The above spreads are more of me and ginganinja messing around with CAP 5's tanking abilities more than anything. The exception is the Sitrus set; a spread of 252 HP / 180+ SpD can be utilized to guarantee its activation after Latios uses Hidden Power Fire on the switch in. It's a legitimate spread for those considering Sitrus Berry, and allows you to allocate a bit more into defense as a mixed wall. Pinch berries are plausible if you have a very specific goal in mind for CAP 5, but typically they are inferior to other sets due to their risky nature. We partially intended it that way; we don't want CAP 5 to go for a sweep. However, the option is available if you need to get in one last Rapid Spin with Cutsap. Finally, those resist berry are silly calculations, but we thought it'd be good to include them just to show how versatile you can get with berries if you really want to suit a specific need on your sun team. With Tanga Berry, for example, CAP 5 can survive any U-turn in the game with a defensive spread. You can also use Chople to get a leg up on Terrakion, and Occa to cement a victory against Heatran. We even included a calculation for Yache Berry against Kyurem-W, and CAP 5 can still tank Choice Specs Blizzard with ease. These stats are pretty much novelty, but they affirm to us that CAP 5 is ridiculously good as is, which is why we're against making it even better with higher speed and attack stats.

• • •

And now, for some offensive calculations. These are all presumed on the defensive sets. I hope we have no intention of CAP 5 getting any set up moves, so I'm working without any EV investment in Attack. I didn't run any Special Attack calculations, because it is more or less useless. HP Fire under the sun can 2HKO Scizor, I think. But we're slower than any set it's going to run besides Life Orb Swords Dance, and +2 Bullet Punch isn't going to be a lot of fun for CAP 5 anyways.

Offense on Bulky Sets Calculations

2HKOs pretty much all bulky waters. 2HKOs both Latis. That suits our Threats Discussion pretty darn well. I don't want to raise this any higher, because it's mostly unnecessary. Again, CAP 5 can choose to invest Atk EVs to net some OHKOs, but it's generally going to want to tank the hits and retaliate back with its excellent STABs. This attack stat capitalizes on the offensive preciseness that our STABs give us in terms of what we wish to threaten. We threaten just that, and not much else.

The Reptile · Mar 4th, 2013, 11:39:18 PM

WIP

108 HP / 80 ATK / 55 DEF / 35 SPA / 130 SPD / 102 SPE

PT: 105.2490 Above Average
ST: 235.4968 Amazing
PS: 127.6642 Good
SS: 69.4218 Poor
BSR: 290.2597 Good
BST: 505

Justifications (Also WIP)

HP / Def / SpD

DetroitLolcat · Mar 4th, 2013, 11:39:34 PM

Okay, I guess I should give a few pointers to all you stat spread submitters so we can get some direction going with this thread. Obviously, there are five stat limits to adhere to in order to be slated, but just having a legal entry is not sufficient to ensure being slated.

What I'm looking for in a slate-worthy spread is valid competitive reasoning. Just give enough reasons why your spread is going to fulfill the concept, and there's a good chance it will live to see another thread. Specific calculations, both offensive and defensive, for the Pokemon that we want to threaten or be threatened by can only help one's case, especially when the numbers are unorthodox. Although I've never seen unorthodox stats as too much of an optics issue, if your stats don't end in 0 or 5 it's usually a good idea to explain why. I'm obviously not mandating rounded stats nor is that going to be a major criterion for selection, but it's just good form to justify any unusual looking stats.

On BSR abuse, please stay away from it. It's entirely proper to ride a limit or two, as that's the purpose of the limits. It's perfectly reasonable to select a BSR just under 320 or just over 250, but it's not acceptable to submit egregious HP values such as 150 or 160 (or 151!!!!!!!!!!) and drop Defense below 40 just to make the BST prettier while maximizing Stat Limits. If you're just abusing the limits and find that just about every one of the five limited stats is teetering on the limit, then you need to rethink your spread. Remember, we're building a Pokemon, not a hyper-competitive war machine perfectly optimized to destroy its competition.

Also, remember if that the words Final Submission do not appear in your post, it's not going to end up on the slate. This is to identify between WIP (While In Progress) spreads that are still searching for improvements and commentary versus slate-ready spreads looking for evaluation.

Most importantly, comment on each other's spreads! Every constructive comment makes this discussion that much better, and in the end it's more about how well our deliberation goes than who wins the poll. Don't withhold your comment because you fear it might harm your submission, and don't be afraid to compliment each others' spreads. Though we all have the individual goal of winning the final poll, our goal as a community is to build the best Pokemon we can build. Also, please hop on IRC for constructive criticism. Polls are often won or lost by who receives the most input from their peers on IRC, so don't be afraid to ask a veteran or two about your stat spread. You can always find knowledgeable people on #cap, so if you want a leg up in the Stat Submissions/Polls that's the place to be.

I'll be posting evaluations and commentary of each Final Submission on a daily basis, so look out for that. Not every post in this thread needs to be a submission, and over time this thread should hopefully shift from everyone posting their spreads to everyone commenting on each other's. I'll also point out if a spread fails to meet the limit so the poster can correct that.

Here's to a great discussion!

alexwolf · Mar 4th, 2013, 11:55:15 PM

Just a little heads-up to everyone that has an Attack stat close to 103, just make it 103 if possible, as with 103 Attack the CAP always 2HKOes max HP Latias after lefties and without SR with Crunch (53.29 - 63.18%).

erisia · Mar 5th, 2013, 3:15:28 AM

Final Submission:

75 HP / 110 Atk / 63 Def / 30 SpA / 170 SpD / 70 Spe (518 BST)

PT: 92.4721
ST: 243.657
PS: 135.855
SS: 54.4513
BSR: 282.334

We're going into uncharted territory with that Special Defense stat... only Regice and Shuckle in all of history can best it! Reasoning for each of these stats will be posted below.

Here's some current sets I'm considering! I'll be using them in the calcs below.

item: Sitrus Berry
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Attack / 4 Spe

item: Lum Berry
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe

item: Lum Berry
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

What's up with those defensive stats...

What about that Speed...

And what about those offenses?

Okay, that should be just about everything. Let me know what you guys think!

**ginganinja** · Mar 5th, 2013, 5:50:09 AM

Capefeather I just have a small question regarding your speed on CAP 5. I understand that outrunning Specs Toed is very important for you, however I am not sure if CAP 5 would be able too, without losing a massive amount of its bulk which would impact on its ability to then check Specs Toed.

The problem I can forsee is Specs Toed simply running max speed Modest therefore outspeeding and 2KOing CAP 5, which is sorta rendering your speed stat moot. If 75 speed isn't letting you outspeed Specs Toed (which from what I read seemed to be the point of that speed number) then why use that speed in the first place. Do you have plans to address max speed Specs Toed via your EV spread (this goes for everyone else including Deck Knight who picked 75 speed or more to "outrun" Specs Toed), or were you unaware that Specs Toed can and does run that much speed. (I personally run HP but whenever I run into 252 Speed Specs Toed on the ladder it screws me over).

Qwilphish · Mar 5th, 2013, 8:52:34 AM

Final Submission:

90 HP / 95 Atk / 70 Def / 40 SpA / 140 SpD / 75 Spe
510 BST

PT:115.6976 Above Average
ST:224.4887 Fantastic (trololol)
PS:111.7203 Above Average
SS:62.91288 Poor
BSR:274.7695 Good

Now that the stats are out on the floor, time for some reasonings. First up is SPEED.

Since it seems that speed is going to be the biggest controversy when it comes to the stats this time around let's get it out of the way first. 75 speed lies right between that sweet spot of Politoed's 70 speed and Heatran's base 77 speed. I can already here people screaming as to why I would want to outspeed Politoed but not Heatran. First off, with Politoed we are supposed to, more or less, attack/kill/murder/massacre it. Since Politoed isn't the most speedy pokemon around, I don't see any problems with outspeeding it. I've heard some opposition on IRC about toed trying to speed creep us because we only have 5 base stats up on him, meaning that Specs 'Toed will need to invest 44 Speed Ev's to try to outspeed us. The problem with this is that the 'Toed user is now at a significant disadvantage compared to us as we can invest 4 Ev's to speed creep him, and so on and so forth.

Underspeeding Heatran however, is another story. Heatran, due to our typing alone, make it one of the most reliable checks to our CAP. Some people have mentioned on IRC about giving 'Toed Low Kick as a coverage move because of it's variable power and semi-lack of consistency (as shown in Deck's Stat Spread). If this goes in place, I would like to make sure that one of our greatest checks is not going to lose one-on-one with us sometimes.

We Outspeed: Politoed; Tyranitar; Hippowdown; Abomasnow; Scizor; Breloom;
Forry/Ferro/Jelli/Blobs; Skarmory; Gastrodon

Who Outspeeds Us: Ninetales; Lati@s; Rotom-W; Dragonite; Pixies; Salamence; Mamoswine; Toxicroak; Lucario; Landorus(-T); Infernape; Venusaur- Outside of Sun; Toxicroak

One point that I really want to make across is this speed's ability to tackle on every weather starter besides Sun (which is good), without outspeeding any major threat that we wouldn't have with 70 Speed besides breloom and other randoms. By being able to help aid the weather war (but not single handily stop it as shown with Physically bulky stats)we help sun, and thus fulfill our concept.

We also get outsped by Rotom-W with no investment. While we risk the burn if we go above 86 just to try to speed creep Rotom-W we now outspeed a myriad of other randoms that turn us from being a shaky counter to a full blown counter. Such pokemon include, Venusaur, Toxicroak, Dragonite, Mamoswine, Rotom-W, and Gyarados. Not to mention, if we were to go 5 base stats above Rotom-W to try and dissuade it from speed creeping us (as I did with Politoed) then now we outspeed base 90's naturally which just adds onto the pokemon we can outspeed, and increase our sweeping potential.

A strange, but valid, point to make also with 75 speed is that while the speed isn't "fast", it isn't deathly slow like conk and reuniclus. This "speediness" will deter people from using CAP on a TR team in conjunction with our attack stat, or even worse *shudders* a sun TR team. Speaking of attack......

Second Verse same as the first, this time with ATTACK AND SP.ATTACK

With Attack, I didn't want for CAP 5 to fall under the category of a generic sun sweeper, (especially with Harvest as our primary ability) so I gave it an attack stat that isn't great but is usable to kill the targets intended. Combined with the speed given it will be very difficult to try to push harvest to its limits and boost both its attack and speed to try and prepare for a sweep. I chose the specific 95 Attack because it was the minimum to 2HKO 252/0 Lati@s with no investment after stealth rock. Other fun tidbits of calcs is that it will OHKO Politoed with Power Whip after rocks most of the time.

Let's stop talking and get onto the Calcs because that is why you're even here.

*Calc'd using 0 Atk investment

Attacking Calcs

0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 216-254 (56.25 - 66.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 314-372 (81.77 - 96.87%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock-- we outspeed this type of 'Toed
0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 314-372 (84.18 - 99.73%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock--- type of 'Toed that outspeeds us
0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 182-216 (50 - 59.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 182-216 (60.26 - 71.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Latios: Same Calcs regarding attack
0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 198-234 (51.29 - 60.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 138-164 (32.85 - 39.04%) -- 80.64% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 186-222 (44.92 - 53.62%) -- 87.11% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 102-120 (31.77 - 37.38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 234-276 (81.53 - 96.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 170-204 (55.92 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 118-141 (32.41 - 38.73%) -- 6.25% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 234-276 (58.06 - 68.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 252-296 (77.77 - 91.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (For that rare 252 HP Gar)
0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 158-188 (44.5 - 52.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 158-188 (39.1 - 46.53%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 187-222 (69 - 81.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 109-130 (36.45 - 43.47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

40 Sp.Attack is mostly filler, but luckily, it has ONE use!

252 SpA (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor in sun: 276-328 (80.23 - 95.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO !!!! So don't go getting any crazy ideas now! (although you can go modest and life orb.... please don't, at that point it's not even worth it)

Finally, we are down to the final three stats. HP AND DEFENSE AND SP.DEFENSE

And so, we are left off at HP and the defenses. 90/140 Sp.Defense puts us auspiciously close to the [B~AMAZING~[/B] range.
So we want to theaten Latias? Specs HP Fire in the sun isn't even a guaranteed 2HKO, however Latios's Specs HP Fire IS a guaranteed 2HKO in the sun, so unfortunately we are a shaky check to those with HP Fire. If Latios only has Draco Meteor, we basically hard counter it.
Against Politoed, Specs Focus Blast unfortunately 2HKO's us *just* barely, however Poli needs to hit two Focus Blasts in a row to try and kill us, which as shown with the given calc above, is VERY difficult for it to do. Other Focus Blast, 'Toed can barely touch us, even with Ice Beam.

And off to the calcs once again!

Specially Bulky- Calc'd with 252 HP/252 Sp.Def+

With Defense, it comes with a few niche surviving/ OHKO's. Most of the examples are just bare minimum neutral hits, and thus CAN be taken, but are not advised to take. HP also comes into account, as I did not feel as if it were to be fair to give CAP 5 a high HP and a low defense, so I took the middle ground and went for average HP and below average defense. As bug types are the most obvious counters to us, I wanted to make it so that nearly every bug move will either OHKO or leave us with low HP afterwards.
As I mentioned previously, outspeeding the weather inducers not ending with tales helps us AID the weather war. This defense spread shows how we can't straight out defeat every weather inducer as we get heavily dented by both Tyranitar and Hippowdon, doing over 50% with any super effective hit.
Note with the Dragons- This shows how we would rather stay out of Dragon's way not ending in "as" as most moves OHKO us with max HP investment.

Physically Bulky- Calc'd with 252 HP/0 Defense

With that, this concludes this tour of CAP 5's possible spread, and what I believe is to be the most effective and efficient spread out there. Thank you for reading this monstrosity of a spread and I'll see you guys next time.

Main Points - TL;DR

reachzero · Mar 5th, 2013, 9:36:08 AM

Final Submission:

100 HP / 105 Atk / 55 Def / 50 SpA / 140 SpD / 65 Spe (BST 515)

PT: 99.03701
ST: 239.6697
PS: 121.7599
SS: 72.78916

Overall BSR: 286.775

Stat Reasoning:

I felt it was important to give CAP5 the ability to do what it had to do working with the most natural EV spread possible--252 HP/252 SpD/6 (anything) Careful--while putting it in the right ballpark in terms of speed to move up to speed-creep what it chooses to, while retaining its capacity to meet its baseline goals (i.e., beating Lati@s and Politoed).

For instance, one could choose to speed-creep the major benchmark for OU slow Pokemon (CB Tar, Jellicent, Specs Toed, etc.), 180, by investing to get up to 181 speed. This would produce the following spread, the subject of all future damage calculations.

CAP 5 @ Lum Berry
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpD / 60 Spe Careful
Stats: 404 HP / 246 Atk / 146 Def / 122 SpA / 401 SpD / 181 Spe

HP / Def / SpD:

100 HP/140 SpD gives CAP5 a clear and emphatic focus on taking special attacks, allowing it to tank Latios' Draco Meteor without a problem (50% - 58.9%). Latios can't guarantee a 2HKO with Life Orb HP Fire in Sun (43.6% - 51.5%). Since this spread can 2HKO even max HP Latias, this ensures that CAP5 will virtually always beat the Lati@s twins. This spread also means that CAP5 does great against Politoed, taking only 27.2% - 32.2% from Modest Specs Hydro Pump, and only 39.1% - 46% even if switching in on Specs Ice Beam. On the other hand, SpD Heatran does 46.5% - 55.4% in Sun to CAP5 with Lava Plume, meaning that CAP5 cannot stall out Heatran, an important consideration when discussing very large STank numbers (barring Leech Seed, which we'll talk about in the movepool stage, no doubt).

100 HP/55 Def gives up PTank comparable to that of Tentacruel, another Pokemon focused on SpD. Obviously Scizor can OHKO it easily with U-turn, but can also 2HKO it with Bullet Punch (64.9% - 76.5%) even if CAP5 is faster. Switching into CB Tyranitar is not an option, as CAP5 takes 44.1% - 52% from Choice Band Crunch and OHKOed by Stone Edge, but CAP5 could switch easily into SpD Tyranitar or weak attackers like Hippowdon.

Making CAP5 much weaker in its physical defenses means that many Pokemon can severely threaten it with even neutral attacks, while allowing it to wall the threats it is designed to counter.

Attack / Speed:

105 base attack is a logical number in that it allows CAP5 to 2HKO max HP Latias with uninvested Crunch (54.4% - 64.3%) and possibly OHKO max HP Politoed with Power Whip (89.1% - 105.2%). CAP5 2HKOs physically defensive Jellicent with Power Whip (68.48 - 80.89%). Interestingly, 105 is just enough attack to break SubCM Jirachi's Subs most of the time, doing (24.5 - 28.96%) to max HP Jirachi with Crunch.

65 Speed is carefully chosen. With no speed investment, CAP5 would naturally outspeed similarly uninvested Tyranitar and Jellicent, and tie with Scizor and Vaporeon. More importantly, it lets CAP5 get right into the middle of the speed creep game with Politoed, Tyranitar, Jellicent, Scizor, etc. Politoed can outcreep CAP5 by virtue of being naturally faster, but in the process will end up giving up a lot of bulk that will make it easier to kill for the rest of CAP5's team. I feel that 65 is an excellent fit in terms of dealing with the threats we have chosen, while remaining slower than Heatran. This is one of the major distinctives of my stat spread.

(thanks to Deck Knight, from whom I shamelessly pilfered the format)

Conclusion:

This spread allows CAP5 to hands-down counter the Lati@s twins and Politoed, while opening the door for physical threats to hurt it badly even with neutral attacks. It has enough attack to handily dispose of the threats it covers, but not enough to attack everything indiscriminately. Its speed is exactly sufficient to cover the slower section of OU, where Politoed and many of the other Water-type denizens dwell. It maintains a comfortably sane BST, 515, a number already familiar from a Pokemon with a similar role, Tentacruel. This is a stat spread you can believe in, that you can leave as a legacy for your children.

alexwolf · Mar 5th, 2013, 9:44:22 AM

I am not going to comment on any slow stat spread that has below 71 Speed, as 71 Speed is the minimum needed to outspeed most defensive Pokemon. And if we can't even outspeed defensive Pokemon, this limtis greatly the chances that we will have to attack or heal. So on to the spreads with 75 Speed or more:

- Deck Knight: Good spread overall, and with this Speed stat you can make sure that Specs Politoed won't have an easy time speed creeping the CAP. However, i don't see why your spread favors Sitrus Berry and Enigma Berry over LumRest. With a simple 252/252+ spread, the CAP is never 2HKOed by Specs Latios's DM after SR, almost never 2HKOed by Specs Politoed's Ice Beam after SR (5.86% chance), and can simply stall out Focus Blast with Rest as the CAP is faster and Rest has more pps while Focus Blast has attrocious accuracy. And because LumRest is such a reliable healing and status immunity tool, i don't see the CAP easily giving it up, just to avoid a 2HKO from LO/Specs Latios's HP Fire under sun, which Heatran can easily take anyway.

- capefeather: I definitely like the concept, so props for that. Although i believe that the ST is a bit low, you explained well why this happens (to not allow the CAP to counter everything it wants to with only one set), meaning that you have a solid reasoning. My main problem with your spread is the Speed. If you aim to outspeed Specs Politoed 75 Speed is just not enough, as Politoed can easily Speed creep or even max out the Speed. So why don't you stretch your Speed a bit until your reach the limit of PS? Finally, as i said 103 Attack allows the CAP to 2HKO 252 Latias after lefties, so there is that too.

- DarkSlay: OK spread overall, can't go in details without the explanation though.

- The Reptile: Your first damage calcs look fine, but the second not. Specs Focus Blast always 2HKOes after SR and 88.28% of the time without SR. This would be fine if the CAP could outspeed Politoed, but as i mentioned again, 75 Speed is just not enough to take care of Politoed, which can easily use more Speed. What's more, Ice Beam from SpecsToed has a 5.86% chance to 2HKO the CAP after SR, so i definitely suggest to use a bit more Special Defense to avoid this. To sum it up, i would suggest raising a bit the ST in order to always avoid the 2HKO from Specs Politoed's Ice Beam after SR, and increasing the Speed to avoid getting outsped by speed creeping Politoed.

- Oglemi: The PT is wayyy too big imo. I would suggest removing some Defense and putting it to Speed to have more insurance against Politoed. Also as i said to others, you could consider using 103 Attack instead of 100 to always 2HKO 252 HP Latias with Crunch. Will comment more after i see your reasoning.

- erisia: Will wait for a complete reasoning, however the ST seems too much, and the Speed could use a little boost as Politoed can easily Speed creep (if this matters for your spread, if not then fine).

Imanalt · Mar 5th, 2013, 10:39:37 AM

Final Submission

81/107/76/42/143/76
PT: 116.9
ST: 215.2
PS: 143.2
SS: 69.7
BSR: 294.4

Justifications:
Lets start out simple with the defenses. 81/76/143 stats. I wanted to keep my hp low to increase the gain from maximizing hp and not investing in defenses, because i feel that a 252 hp/252+ atk spread allows us to simultaneously be able to tank the hits from rain pokemon and lati@s, while still being able to apply enough offensive pressure to allow sun teams to grab an advantage. Basically I went with enough bulk to always be able to survive dragon pulse from any boost level of latias, meaning it should ALWAYS be able to check it.

Code:

+6 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 309-364 (84.42 - 99.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also can easily survive one specs latios draco meteor, and can survive 2 scarfed dmeteors, allowing for it to be able to always beat scarf and put specs into a situation where it dies to either sucker punch if it stays in, or pursuit if it switches.

Code:

252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 169-199 (46.17 - 54.37%)
-2 252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 84-100 (22.95 - 27.32%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 252-297 (68.85 - 81.14%)

Obviously, Specs latios is a problem, but being able to avoid the 2hko from draco meteor is just not realistic, and we still are in a position where we have a good chance to threaten it, even if you lose a lot of hp in the process. I also kept the special bulk down at a low enough level that an offensive heatran in neutral weather can almost always ohko with fire blast.

Code:

252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 318-374 (86.88 - 102.18%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The Defense stat was chosen to guarantee that Jolly Life Orb breloom will always oho with mach punch after stealth rocks.

Code:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cap 5: 322-382 (87.97 - 104.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

A low hp stat also has the added bonus of encouraging 252/0 hp spreads, as it means you get a higher percentage boost from the investment.

Now onto the Attacking stats. Again for attack I worked primarily off of lati@s. 107 attack is essentially the minimum to ohko latios with no hazard damages. This also has the nice effect of always ohko'ing a switching cmlatias with two stealthrock damages with pursuit:

Code:

252+ Atk Cap 5 Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 302-356 (100 - 117.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Cap 5 Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 276-326 (75.82 - 89.56%)

The attack is also enough to nearly always ohko Defensive politoed with power whip, and always ohko specs politoed with leaf blade should it have that:

Code:

252+ Atk Cap 5 Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 356-422 (92.7 - 109.89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Cap 5 Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 326-386 (84.89 - 100.52%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The Special attack is mainly filler, keeping it low enough that Scizor won't be ohko'd by hidden power fire, and it also allows me to get a nice round number for my bst (525), which is always nice for optics.

The speed is 76 to make it as hard as possible for specs politoed to speedcreep you, while still keeping cap 5 slower than hearten.

**capefeather** · Mar 5th, 2013, 11:49:26 AM

So about max Speed Choice Specs Politoed... The way I see it, CAP 5 will always be in some amount of trouble against such powerful super-effective attacks without a Sitrus Berry, especially considering Focus Blast 2HKOes even stuff like reachzero's spread. So while I think that outrunning Politoed could be worthwhile so that the speed creeping pressure is more on it than on CAP 5, there's little point in trying to go all the way with the special bulk as well. I get the low speed + high special bulk angle, too, and I don't think that 70+ speed + high special bulk is really worth it, so I guess 70+ speed + lower special bulk is just what I have chosen.

While I have those calcs against Life Orb Latios, obviously that's not an entirely consistent scenario, and it wasn't meant to be. I've put Life Orb Latios and Choice Specs Politoed in the same boat, really, in that you could perhaps beat them without Sitrus, but it would probably help greatly. Plus, that first Sitrus Berry is free regardless of the weather, and a Speed creeping Politoed has a greater chance of being wrecked by Power Whip. tbh I still am still thinking about the Speed stat and possibly the Attack stat, which is why I haven't marked the submission as final, but atm 75 seems like the Speed level with the fewest potential side effects.

**jas61292** · Mar 5th, 2013, 12:33:57 PM

So, I want to comment on something that is strangely common considering how the stat limit discussion went. When trying to decide on what our Physical Sweepieness should be, there were two main camps: those who wanted fast speed, and those who wanted slow speed. Yet, now that we are on to submissions, a very large number of people are just going with medium speeds, and based on the explanations I have seen, both here and in the last thread, this makes absolutely no sense to me.

The main goal of the fast speed side was to outspeed Latios and Latias so that you don't need the ridiculous Special bulk to beat them. On the other side, the slow speed side was all about how we are going to beat what we want to beat defensively, and so outspeeding those Pokemon is of little to no advantage, whereas outspeeding things we want to be countered by (Scizor, Heatran, etc) has definite negatives. So, I have to say I am flabbergasted by the number of people that ar putting speed above that of Politoed and Heatran and the like, but below Latios and Latias. What exactly are we expected to gain from this?

Now, looking at capefeather's, for example, he stated that with his spread we would be a shaky check to the most powerful of Latios, and that beating Politoed is more important, so outspeeding it is necessary. However, this is predicated on having comparatively low special bulk. Even then, the chosen speed stat is to force one specific Politoed set, which only accounts for around 25% of Politoed, to invest slightly in speed, which, as ginganinja brought up, is not exactly that bad. Politoed will not hesitate to do it if it needs to, and it will not be that disadvantaged. Max Spe Specs Toed was the only Politoed set I ran for the longest time, and I can assure you, it is not somehow a hindrance to have to run it. In general, what I am trying to say is that outspeeding Politoed is really not unnecessary, and the idea of forcing it to invest is supurfluous at best.

Even with that said, this shaky reasoning is only even the smallest bit sensible on capefeather's spread, where special bulk is notably lower than the other submissions. In other cases where the spreads are made to straight up wall Latios, this becomes completely ridiculous. The notion that we can wall arguably the greatest Special Attacker in the entire tier, but need speed help to beat a fairly mediocre Special Attacker is utterly absurd. It is a case of outspeeding it solely for the sake of outspeeding it, and when we have counters who are slower that we want to lose to, this is not the kind of attitude we should have.

Now, I don't want this to be taken as an attempt to try and force people into slow spreads. All I am trying to say here is that middle of the road speeds seem rather useless for the path we are going down. Maybe there is some other important reasoning I have yet to come across, but if you have the stats to tank Latios, but claim that you can't beat the comparatively pathetic Politoed without speed, I think you need to find some greater reasoning than that.

ganj4lF · Mar 5th, 2013, 1:08:45 PM

I agree wholeheartedly with ginga and jas; I'm not going to post a spread of mine since the ones already proposed are very similar to the one I'd propose; however, I would not be concerned too much in outspeeding Toed (unless one goes for the 110 base Speed benchmark, which even if I don't like it, is reasonable in a sense, but is clearly not related to Toed) since SpecsToed can easily run 252 Spe (which is not uncommon at all), and if we want to fulfill our Lati check role, we need the investment in special bulk. We can still hit ridiculously hard on the switch even uninvested, and some of the proposed spreads aren't even 2HKO'd by Specs Ice Beam (prolly noone is, if one chooses to run Sitrus). I'm not blaming those 75 Spe at all, just I'd like the submitters to elaborate a bit more on that choice in light of ginganinja's suggestion.

**capefeather** · Mar 5th, 2013, 2:18:27 PM

I'm glad that we've had a better discussion on the middling Speed ranges after the fast ranges were so thoroughly settled. I'm sure that more people will eventually come in and have better explanations for the 71-80 Speed range, and I'm sure that DarkSlay has something good going with his aim of outrunning all Wash Rotom. As for me, I have conceded and lowered the Speed a bit. I still think that 60+ is important for various reasons, but outrunning Politoed naturally looks less attractive than it did before. I think it would only be worth it on a spread if it outruns Wash Rotom like DarkSlay's spread.

nyttyn · Mar 5th, 2013, 3:38:41 PM

Final Submission

100 HP / 80 Atk / 50 Def / 35 SpA / 120 SpD / 115 Spe
500 BST

90.5701 PT Below Average
206.906 ST Fantastic
141.278 PS Good
70.8094 SS Poor
271.346 BSR Good

Explination:

Long version

Shortpoints:

craptacular physical defense
live resisted hits and meh to medium neutral, die to strong stab neutral, die to weakness
great special defense
speed racer, outspeed latis
115 spe looks nice and doesn't outspeed anything relevant past the latis
don't bother with meaty wishes, CAP5 will never have the time to do it. Spread discourages them in fact, this is good
no awkward stat #s. 0s and 5s baby!
2hko every lati set except calm mind, still a 60% chance of 2hkoing calm mind after rocks
shrug off the damage with lumrest
survive at least one specs meteor with a comfy coushin of HP left
eat two sitrus afterwards and then you have enough HP to survive another meteor, giving you a chance to retaliate
500 bst! how can you not love 500 BST?

ganj4lF · Mar 5th, 2013, 4:22:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

90 HP / 80 Atk / 50 Def / 35 SpA / 130 SpD / 115 Spe

encourage 252 spdef / 252 spe / 4 hp

I realize this is just a WIP, but I can't see how your spread encourages 252 SpD over 252 HP. Let's take SpecsToed's Ice Beam as benchmark:

252+ SpecsToed Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD CAP5: 158-188 (49.22 - 58.56%)
252+ SpecsToed Ice Beamvs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD CAP5: 192-228 (50 - 59.37%)

So you gain a minuscule amount of special bulk (like...0.5%? or something like that), but...lose quite a bit of physical bulk (okay, CAP5 won't be ever staying in on physical mons, but still...):

248+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP5 in rain: 158-186 (41.14 - 48.43%)
248+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP5 in rain: 158-186 (49.22 - 57.94%)

The example is completely random, it was just to show how the loss of very minimal special bulk can help CAP to take physical resisted attacks quite a bit better. I'd go 252 HP / 252 Spe almost blindly seeing your spec, maxing Special Defense makes close to no sense to me.

Admiral_Stalfos19 · Mar 5th, 2013, 5:37:56 PM

Needs more fastmons :/

88HP/75Atk/61Def/35SAt/154SDf/130Spe

Physical Tankiness: 100.1771 (Above Average)
Special Tankiness: 243.6314 (Fantastic)
Physical Sweepiness: 136.1366 (Good)
Special Sweepiness: 71.8508 (Poor)

BST: 543
BSR: 299.4041 (Good, nudging on Very Good)

Proper explanations will come shortly, but for now, some key points about this spread.

* Physical Tankiness is akin to Shiftry's
* 2HKO's standard Latios with an invested Crunch the vast majority of the time (this can only be avoided if Lady Luck absolutely despises of the CAP5 user). Also outspeeds it without having to use Jolly as its nature, and can take 1.5 Draco Meteors from Specs varients with ease.
* Outspeeds Politoed even if it tries to run Choice Scarf (which is rare and unorthodox for a Politoed, I know, but let's be safe :3). Also outspeeds Starmie, Ttar w/ a DD/Scarf, Dugtrio and both Lati twins of all things noteworthy. This is of course assuming Jolly and full EV investment.
* Has 3 multiples of 5 in stats (apparently its what people like for whatever reason :/)
* SAt sits at 35 to stop CAP5 users from getting any ideas w/ Hidden Power.

Mar 4th, 2013, 10:09:16 PM	#2
srk1214 Supreme Master of Trivia Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 824	WIP: 90/100/60/45/130/75 (BST: 500) PT: 99.7571 - Below Average (barely lol) ST: 209.068 - Fantastic PS: 132.263 - Good SS: 72.5607 - Poor BSR: 274.007 - Good __________________ Best. Match. Ever. http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou11554542 To see the other best match ever, go to DetroitLolcat's signature. Last edited by srk1214; Mar 4th, 2013 at 10:50:33 PM. Reason: woopsie daisy wrong generation calc xD

Mar 4th, 2013, 10:11:44 PM	#3
Nyktos Custom Loser Title Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 332	Final Submission: 109 HP / 105 Atk / 52 Def / 50 SpA / 135 SpD / 44 Spe (495 BST) PT: 100.21 ST: 244.71 PS: 96.02 SS: 63.87 BSR: 268.25 Justifications Attack 0 Atk CAP 5 Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 198-234 (54.39 - 64.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 342-404 (89.06 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Latias and Politoed are by far the most important threats for us to beat, and the slow spreads in particular need to worry about their ability to beat them. CM Latias is tough to crack without being able to deal more damage to it than it can heal with Recover and a turn of lefties, and Specs Politoed is powerful enough to threaten even the most specially bulky spreads with Focus Blast or Ice Beam. We need to be able to threaten these things back, and unless we give it even more bulk than I have, we need to do so with minimal offensive investment. For a long time I was considering a lower Attack stat, but it's just a lot easier if you know that you can do what you need to do without investing. Latias needs to invest 188 EVs in Defense in addition to max HP in order to guarantee surviving two Crunches. This makes it rather slower than usual, but if that's still a problem, we can give CAP 5 Payback which has a chance to 2HKO even max / max Bold Latias. I did my calculations assuming the weaker STAB move in part because I prefer a minimum of assumptions, and in part because with enough attack to get that KO after rocks on Toed, Crunch does enough damage anyway. Special Attack 50 doesn't mean anything in particular, but going any lower felt a little unbelievable. For the people paranoid about Hidden Power: 0 SpA CAP 5 Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in sun: 216-256 (62.97 - 74.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA CAP 5 Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in sun: 336-396 (97.95 - 115.45%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO 0 SpA CAP 5 Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 116-140 (35.91 - 43.34%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ SpA CAP 5 Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 180-212 (55.72 - 65.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I don't think we have to worry too much about that. Physical bulk 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 432-510 (102.36 - 120.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 392-464 (92.89 - 109.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Encouraging these guys (especially Toxicroak) as counters is, I think, a good idea. Grass and Poison are underused types (and Fighting is, contrary to many statements back in Concept Assessment, not especially overused). Toxicroak is also an ideal thing to have as a counter because it is a rainmon but one that isn't very popular, and kinda sucks if sun wins the weather war. Essentially, rain can deal with CAP 5 but makes itself overall worse to do so. Well, probably they just run Scizor instead, but you know. I'm sure Toxicroak appreciates it anyway. We can, of course, choose to invest in defense, but that's unlikely to be very productive. (Both of these moves still 2HKO anyway.) Special bulk 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 201-237 (47.63 - 56.16%) -- 81.64% chance to 2HKO (except not because of the SpA drop) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 156-184 (36.96 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock Surviving two SpecsToed Ice Beams with rocks is important for the slower spreads, as even though sun has other switchins on Ice moves, we probably want to switch in on Toed twice. It's perhaps not essential to be guaranteed surviving the two beams after rocks, but reliability is nice. Meteor requires much less bulk than this to tank, but having more obviously doesn't hurt, and given how much fear there's been about meteors, I think taking 56% max is something that we as a community can appreciate. Mine is one of the most specially bulky to be submitted, and indeed it rides close to the limit, but I would not have done anything different had the limit been higher. I think this is the right amount of special bulk to have, and I was one of the people who urged DetroitLolcat to raise the limit to where it ended up. There has been some concern on IRC about this calculation: 0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 128-152 (30.33 - 36.01%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock This is shockingly low for a super-effective move, I agree. However, it doesn't actually matter that specially defensive Heatran takes some time to beat us provided it does beat us, which is something we can ensure at the movepool stage. It's true that with Sitrus Berry we can survive a long time, but we have to be worried about a burn (and even with perfect luck, we can't survive indefinitely so if we can't deal more damage than it heals with lefties we still lose). Lum would allow us to not care about that, but, well, Lava Plume has a lot more PP than Rest. There are a lot of moves that we can give it that would make this a win, but none of them are moves I would consider reasonable to simply assume we get. Speed Why does SpecsToed run 252 HP? Answer: Because there's nothing just above it worth creeping. This is why I think the spreads with base speed in the 70s are misguided. If we give it base 75 Speed, Politoed's standard Specs set will run 44 EVs, and then both parties will have to play a guessing game at how far above that the other will creep. It's a game we can't win, because every spread has fairly optimized bulk that suffers as points are removed from it. Now one answer to this is to go with a very fast spread (high 80s or above). This is not unreasonable, and I think some of the fast spreads are just fine. However, in the end I don't think we need speed to do what we want, and if we don't need speed, we shouldn't get speed. Outspeeding Politoed is non-essential with this much bulk, and while outspeeding Lati@s would have been very nice (I supported Chlorophyll after all), that's not going to happen unless we're running high investment (which requires absurd uninvested bulk to compensate) or we go up to Deoxys-S level base Speed. So I settled on slower than Politoed, and from there I just kept going lower and lower. I was at 69 briefly, then I decided we may as well underspeed Scizor since we want that to beat us and the best way to do that is to make sure U-turn has absolutely no drawback whatsoever. I was in the 62-64 range for a time, but I decided there was no particular reason we needed to outspeed Tyranitar: we already destroy Politoed and Hippowdon, and we have a good chance to beat defensive Tar anyway. So to the depths below 60 base Speed I plunged, and in the end I figured underspeeding Conkeldurr by one point, as irrelevant as it was (Mach Punch + who uses conkeldurr anyway lol), was a fine place to end up. Calculation Compendium Offensive calcs ("Crunch" can also be Sucker Punch or Pursuit on a switch, and "Power Whip" can also be Wood Hammer.) Lati@s 0 Atk CAP 5 Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 218-258 (72.18 - 85.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk CAP 5 Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 198-234 (65.56 - 77.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk CAP 5 Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 198-234 (54.39 - 64.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Politoed 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 342-404 (89.06 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 234-276 (60.93 - 71.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Other Pokémon we threaten 0 Atk CAP 5 Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 270-320 (103.05 - 122.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 254-300 (63.02 - 74.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 254-302 (104.95 - 124.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 254-302 (84.94 - 101%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 204-240 (75.27 - 88.56%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk CAP 5 Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 120-142 (40.13 - 47.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 234-276 (55.71 - 65.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 174-206 (41.42 - 49.04%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Pokémon that threaten us 0 Atk CAP 5 Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 42-51 (13 - 15.78%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock 0 SpA CAP 5 Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 116-140 (35.91 - 43.34%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ SpA CAP 5 Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 180-212 (55.72 - 65.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk CAP 5 Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 45-54 (13.11 - 15.74%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock 0 SpA CAP 5 Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in sun: 216-256 (62.97 - 74.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA CAP 5 Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in sun: 336-396 (97.95 - 115.45%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO 0 Atk CAP 5 Crunch vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Ninetales: 99-117 (28.28 - 33.42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 81-96 (30.91 - 36.64%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 96-113 (31.16 - 36.68%) -- 99.95% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 89-105 (30.37 - 35.83%) -- 45.65% chance to 3HKO Other (Pokémon we both threaten and are threatened by) 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 294-348 (90.74 - 107.4%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 294-348 (90.74 - 107.4%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk CAP 5 Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 248-294 (61.38 - 72.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Defensive calcs Lati@s 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 201-237 (47.63 - 56.16%) -- 81.64% chance to 2HKO 4 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5 in sun: 98-116 (23.22 - 27.48%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock +1 4 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5 in sun: 144-170 (34.12 - 40.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock +2 4 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5 in sun: 192-228 (45.49 - 54.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock +2 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 123-145 (29.14 - 34.36%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock +6 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 246-289 (58.29 - 68.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Politoed 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 196-232 (46.44 - 54.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 156-184 (36.96 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 0 SpA Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 74-88 (17.53 - 20.85%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock Other Pokémon we threaten 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 154-182 (36.49 - 43.12%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 56+ SpA Rotom-W Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 72-86 (17.06 - 20.37%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 120-142 (28.43 - 33.64%) -- 98.46% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 216-255 (51.18 - 60.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 127-151 (30.09 - 35.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 100-118 (23.69 - 27.96%) -- possible 4HKO 0 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 174-206 (41.23 - 48.81%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Heatran 252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 254-300 (60.18 - 71.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5 in sun: 380-450 (90.04 - 106.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 128-152 (30.33 - 36.01%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5 in sun: 192-228 (45.49 - 54.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Other Pokémon that threaten us 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 271-321 (64.21 - 76.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 1272-1500 (301.42 - 355.45%) -- guaranteed OHKO 0 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5: 300-352 (71.09 - 83.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 432-510 (102.36 - 120.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 392-464 (92.89 - 109.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 736-868 (174.4 - 205.68%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Caterpie Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 324-384 (76.77 - 90.99%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Other (Pokémon we both threaten and are threatened by) 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 660-776 (156.39 - 183.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 468-552 (110.9 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO 0 SpA Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD CAP 5 in sun: 146-174 (34.59 - 41.23%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def CAP 5: 740-872 (175.35 - 206.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO Calcs with physically defensive spread 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def CAP 5: 171-202 (40.52 - 47.86%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def CAP 5: 796-940 (188.62 - 222.74%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def CAP 5: 273-322 (64.69 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Low Sweep vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def CAP 5: 406-478 (96.2 - 113.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def CAP 5: 463-546 (109.71 - 129.38%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def CAP 5: 466-550 (110.42 - 130.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def CAP 5: 294-348 (69.66 - 82.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def CAP 5: 414-488 (98.1 - 115.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Caterpie Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def CAP 5: 204-244 (48.34 - 57.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Last edited by Nyktos; Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:43:40 AM.

Mar 4th, 2013, 10:17:26 PM	#4
Deck Knight Jigen Makkoto Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,887 Massachusetts	Final Submission: 83 HP / 92 Atk / 73 Def / 42 SpA / 156 SpD / 89 Spe (BST 535) PT: 114.153 ST: 237.46 PS: 137.421 SS: 73.6857 Overall BSR: 305.962 Stat Reasoning: Now, as everyone knows, I make Stats with a spread in mind. CAP 5 @ Sitrus / Enigma Berry EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 156 SpD Careful Stats: 370 HP / 245 Atk / 182 Def / 108 SpA / 425 SpD / 214 Spe. Potential Set: (Note: Movepool is not decided at this stage all moves are speculative.) -Power Whip -Crunch -Wish -Rapid Spin HP / Def / SpD: HP: The HP was selected primarily for the size of Wish, should CAP 5 get it. 83 is perfect for most sun threats, which lie in in the 73-80 range thanks to Veusaur and Ninetales, and of course Dugtrio would also appreciate a Wish. However, the HP is too small to really aid other playstyles. Most Rain Pokemon have more bulk in their HP and a far superior Wish option in Vaporeon, while many Sand threats like Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Landorus have HP's that start at 89 and climb up to and past 100. While CAP 5 is likely to invest in HP, it maxes at 370, which is enough for a 185 HP Wish. This is generally not enough healing for the very offensive Pokemon that eat HP through Life Orb (Terrakion/Keldeo's Base HP is 91, Hydreigon's 92, and most of the frailer Life Orbers are too, well, frail.) or for the very bulky invested defensive Pokemon like Politoed (Base 90), Vaporeon (Base 130), Jellicent/Tyranitar (Base 100), Hippowdon/Garchomp (Base 108), Mamoswine (Base 110), or Gastrodon (Base 111) of those styles. To be sure such a Wish could still be used, but again Vaporeon is infinitely superior on Rain as a status-immune Wishpasser, and Sand Pokemon rarely get even 50% healing from CAP 5's Wish, nor do they like the additional Ice and Fighting weaknesses (along with limited offensive presence) CAP 5 would bring to their teams. Ground and Water resistances along with Dark STAB are not as helpful on a team with Landorus and Tyranitar as they are on a Sun team. Def / SpD: This left Defense and Special Defense, and I particularly like what these calcs do with Sitrus Berry or Enigma Berry. Sample Sitrus/Enigma interactions Specs Politoed: Politoed (OU Choice Specs) Focus Blast 50.27 - 59.45% Ice Beam 40 - 47.56% Focus Blast will always activate Sitrus / Enigma Berry, Ice Beam will never 2HKO, and in fact Enigma Berry heals more than Sitrus would reduce damage. Specs Latios: Latios (OU Choice [Choice Specs]) HP Fire (Sun) 51.89 - 61.62% Draco Meteor 51.35 - 60.81% Latios will also trigger Sitrus Berries with DM or Sun-Boosted HP Fire, while boosted HP Fire would also trigger Enigma Berry. I'll get to why these berries are better than LumRest when I get into Attack. the summary is that CAP5 needs the stated Attack investment for the guaranteed 2HKO on Latias, so although you could Max/Max+ CAP 5 and try to tank with LumRest, Latias would start presenting problems. An interesting note is how CAP 5 interacts with Landorus-T, which can technically 2HKO CAP 5 through Sitrus on this spread. The Calc is: Landorus-T (OU Rock Polish) Stone Edge 59.45 - 70% Earthquake 44.32 - 52.43% So if Earthquake hits 48, and then 52 it can KO. It can't KO through hazards though, and Stone Edge cannot 2HKO through Sitrus, though it can through Enigma as it isn't SE. Scarf Lando OHKOs with U-turn and Superpower both. To address why LumRest will not be overpowered with such a high ST, I have tried to build this set to raise the viability of other berries, and additionally I have engineered it so that specific support moves that may be useful later will benefit primarily Sun Pokemon. To do this I had to lower HP and raise Special Defense. I think as a pivot to glue Sun together, Wish is a perfectly viable move to consider when creating a spread, and the lower HP compared to defenses makes Horn Leech marginally more formidable as a STAB because it heals an absolute number of HP. The general physical frailty also allows Pokemon with as low as 100 Base Attack like Scarf Victini to have a minimum 97% Chance to OHKO with U-turn. Finally about the actual SpD number. Defenses in Pokemon have a lot more latitude than other stats. Several Pokemon have 150+ Physical defenses and are not even close to overpowered (Aggron, Cloyster, Steelix, Bastiodon, Regirock), I'm essentially trying to create a Pokemon like that with an emphasis on Special Defense. For a more full picture, here are selections from this spread's Defensive Calcs: Defensive Calcs (Assumes Sunny Day) Victini (OU Physical Attacker [Life Orb]) V-create 367.56 - 432.7% U-turn 126.48 - 150.27% Scizor (OU Offensive Swords Dance) Bug Bite 295.13 - 347.02% Superpower 131.35 - 154.59% Victini (OU Choice Scarf) V-create 282.7 - 332.97% U-turn 97.29 - 115.67% Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance [Life Orb]) Bug Bite 250 - 296.48% Bullet Punch 42.16 - 50% Conkeldurr (OU Substitute + Focus Punch) Focus Punch 238.37 - 281.08% Mach Punch 63.78 - 76.21% Mienshao (OU Choice [Choice Band]) Hi Jump Kick 216.21 - 255.13% U-turn 155.67 - 183.78% Infernape (OU Swords Dance [Blaze]) Fire Punch 214.86 - 253.51% Close Combat 153.78 - 181.35% Toxicroak (OU SubPunch [Life Orb]) Focus Punch 212.97 - 250.81% Ice Punch 71.62 - 84.32% Lucario (OU Swords Dance) Close Combat 173.51 - 205.13% Ice Punch 72.97 - 86.48% Gliscor (OU AcroBat [Flying Gem]) Acrobatics 167.02 - 196.75% Earthquake 25.13 - 30% Mamoswine (OU Physical Attacker [Choice Band]) Icicle Crash 160.54 - 188.64% Ice Shard 76.21 - 89.72% Azelf (OU Physical Choice [Choice Band]) U-turn 155.67 - 183.78% Fire Punch 125.4 - 148.1% Cloyster (OU Shell Smash [Life Orb]) Icicle Spear 151.35 - 182.43% Rock Blast 51.35 - 60.81% Breloom (OU Physical Attacker [Choice Band]) Low Sweep 154.59 - 182.16% Mach Punch 102.7 - 121.62% Heatran (OU Choice Scarf [Flash Fire]) Overheat 154.59 - 182.16% Flamethrower 105.4 - 124.86% Tyranitar (OU Choice Band) Superpower 154.05 - 181.62% Stone Edge 96.48 - 113.51% Yanmega (OU Choice Specs) Bug Buzz 136.21 - 160% U-turn 75.67 - 90.81% Breloom (OU Physical Attacker [Life Orb]) Low Sweep 134.86 - 158.91% Mach Punch 89.18 - 106.21% Volcarona (OU Offensive Quiver Dance) Bug Buzz 118.1 - 140.54% Fire Blast 118.64 - 139.72% Virizion (OU Swords Dance) Close Combat 107.02 - 126.48% Leaf Blade 20 - 23.51% Conkeldurr (OU Status Orb) Drain Punch 100.54 - 118.37% Mach Punch 53.51 - 63.24% Heatran (OU Offensive) Fire Blast 97.29 - 115.13% HP Ice 25.4 - 30.27% Keldeo (OU SubCM) Secret Sword 97.29 - 115.13% Hydro Pump 7.29 - 8.64% Rotom-H (OU Choice [Choice Scarf]) Overheat 97.29 - 115.13% HP Ice 21.62 - 25.94% Dragonite (OU Dragon Dance) Fire Punch 96.75 - 114.05% Outrage 77.29 - 91.08% Hydreigon (OU Substitute [Life Orb]) Fire Blast 82.16 - 97.02% Focus Blast 54.86 - 64.59% Dragonite (OU Tank [Life Orb]) Fire Blast 70.27 - 82.97% Draco Meteor 41.08 - 48.37% Sawsbuck (OU Chlorophyll Sweeper) Return 68.91 - 81.62% Horn Leech 25.4 - 30.27% Dragonite (OU Tank) Fire Blast 54.05 - 63.78% Draco Meteor 31.62 - 37.29% Landorus-T (OU Gravity) Stone Edge 53.78 - 63.51% Earthquake 40.27 - 47.56% Latios (OU Choice [Choice Specs]) HP Fire 51.89 - 61.62% Draco Meteor 51.35 - 60.81% Mamoswine (OU Stealth Rock) Ice Shard 50.27 - 60% Earthquake 31.35 - 37.02% Toxicroak (OU Nasty Plot [Life Orb]) Sludge Wave 50.54 - 59.72% Vacuum Wave 21.89 - 25.94% Politoed (OU Choice Specs) Focus Blast 50.27 - 59.45% Ice Beam 40 - 47.56% Latias (OU Offensive [Choice Specs]) HP Fire 46.48 - 55.13% Draco Meteor 45.67 - 54.32% Latios (OU Offensive [Life Orb]) HP Fire 44.86 - 53.51% Draco Meteor 44.59 - 52.97% Latios (OU Offensive [Expert Belt]) HP Fire 41.62 - 49.18% Draco Meteor 34.32 - 40.81% Latias (OU Offensive [Life Orb]) HP Fire 40.81 - 48.37% Draco Meteor 40 - 47.29% Latios (OU Calm Mind) HP Fire 34.59 - 41.08% Dragon Pulse 22.16 - 26.21% Defensive Calcs (Assumes Rain Dance) Keldeo (OU Choice Specs) Secret Sword 144.86 - 170.81% Hydro Pump 32.97 - 38.91% Keldeo (OU Calm Mind [Life Orb]) Secret Sword 126.48 - 149.72% Hydro Pump 28.64 - 33.78% Keldeo (OU SubCM) Secret Sword 97.29 - 115.13% Hydro Pump 21.89 - 25.94% Latios (OU Choice [Choice Specs]) Draco Meteor 51.35 - 60.81% HP Fire 17.29 - 20.54% Abomasnow (OU Mixed Attacker) Blizzard 50.54 - 60.27% Ice Shard 48.64 - 57.02% [Hail] Mamoswine (OU Stealth Rock) Ice Shard 50.27 - 60% Earthquake 31.35 - 37.02% Politoed (OU Choice Specs) Focus Blast 50.27 - 59.45% Ice Beam 40 - 47.56% Hippowdon (OU Tank) Ice Fang 49.18 - 58.37% Stone Edge 37.83 - 44.59% [Sand] Empoleon (OU Choice Specs [Torrent]) Hydro Pump 48.91 - 57.56% Ice Beam 45.94 - 54.59% Latias (OU Offensive [Choice Specs]) Draco Meteor 45.67 - 54.32% HP Fire 15.13 - 18.37% Kingdra (OU Choice Specs) Draco Meteor 45.67 - 53.78% Ice Beam 41.62 - 49.18% Latios (OU Offensive [Life Orb]) Draco Meteor 44.59 - 52.97% HP Fire 14.86 - 17.56% Vaporeon (OU Hydration Tank) Ice Beam 39.45 - 47.02% Hydro Pump 28.1 - 33.24% Starmie (OU Choice Specs) Ice Beam 39.45 - 46.48% Hydro Pump 27.56 - 32.7% Gyarados (OU Bulky Dragon Dance) Stone Edge 37.29 - 44.05% Waterfall 33.24 - 39.45% Politoed (OU Special Attacker) Ice Beam 27.02 - 31.89% Hydro Pump 18.91 - 22.43% Politoed (OU Choice Scarf) Ice Beam 24.32 - 29.18% Hydro Pump 17.29 - 20.54% Rotom-W (OU Bulky Attacker) HP Ice 20 - 23.78% Hydro Pump 19.18 - 22.7% Politoed (OU Defensive) Ice Beam 18.91 - 22.7% Scald 8.91 - 10.81% Attack / Speed: Now for an explanation on relevant offenses. Basically, I did not want CAP 5 to have a viable Choice Band set, so I set its Attack to below 95, and its Speed to below 90. At 89 Speed, Politoed would have to invest 156 EVs to outrun CAP 5. Politoed is not going to give up over half its EVs in bulk on a Specs Set just to hit CAP 5 twice under any realistic scenario. 89 Is also an excellent speed because of several threats sitting just above it at 90 Speed, Lucario and Roserade - both have Super-effective STAB attacks against CAP 5, and Roserade also has Sun Weather Ball. By making it impossible for CAP 5 to tie these Pokemon, the viability of any choice set is reduced. The maximum speed is also important here, as a +Spe CAP5 can outrun +SpA Hydreigon - and it will have a few EVs to spare to invest in offense or defenses. The speed also comfortably outruns all defensive variants of Rotom-W. In order to outspeed all +Spe Base 70s, 104 EVs are needed. The final off-effect is is makes certain CB Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball always OHKOs, though the standard Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball cannot 2HKO through Sitrus and rarely through Leftovers. As far as the attack itself, it can take on Latios fairly easily, but it needs investment to really take on Latias. Here are a few relevant STAB Calcs assuming offensive coverage of Power Whip / Crunch /Low Kick (as a move over Wish or Spin) / and the mentioned EVs (245 Atk): Sample Offensive Calcs Latias (OU Calm Mind) Crunch 54.39 - 64.28% Power Whip 20.05 - 23.9% Politoed (OU Defensive) Power Whip 60.93 - 71.87% Crunch 20.31 - 24.21% Heatran (OU Specially Defensive) Low Kick 44.15 - 52.46% Crunch 10.9 - 13.24% Hydreigon (OU Substitute) Low Kick 50.3 - 59.5% Kyurem (OU Choice) Low Kick 50.12 - 59.33% Crunch 25.31 - 29.92% Scizor (OU Trapper) Low Kick 21.86 - 25.94% Crunch 13.11 - 15.45% Alternate Spread: Given the general power of LumRest, I have devised an additional Sun Support set that is more offensive in nature. CAP 5 @ Lum Berry EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD Careful Stats: 337 HP / 283 Atk / 182 Def / 108 SpA / 420 SpD / 214 Spe. Potential Set: (Note: Movepool is not decided at this stage all moves are speculative.) -Horn Leech -Sunny Day -Rest -Punishment A set designed with CM Latias in mind. It is capable of switching in, setting up sun, and avoiding a 2HKO from Sun-boosted HP Fire. Should you come in on the Calm Mind in the Sun, use Rest immediately, since you can survive the 2HKO, but it's less likely with hazard damage. If Latias goes for the second CM, Punishment effortlessly OHKO's it. In any other weather, use Sunny Day to get your sun back. Horn Leech is a bit riskier since it gets only marginal healing. The best part is, even though you're opening up the fire weakness in Sunny Day, Harvest makes this set work because it essentially makes Lum Berry permanent. If you set up Sun you will always be status immune, even if you get statused before or after Rest. The Lum Berry will always grow back. Additionally since there are so may Sun Pokemon with Sunny Day, and CAP5 offers a suitable threat to Tyranitar (Low Kick would be needed to OHKO, however Horn Leech 2HKOs CBTar after SR. It requires some smart play, but since Sunny Day activates after Tar switches in, overpowering it with your Sun special attackers will be easier. You can also Sub to eat the first Superpower, and then Horn Leech comfortably 2HKOs. There is some 4MSS syndrome, but the idea here is pick your targets. Punishment/Crunch beats Latis, Low Kick beats Tar, Horn Leech expedites beating Toed and is generally the most helpful.) This set has to be more wary of Specs Latios, since Specs DM can 2HKO with Hazards up, so unlike the first set (assuming Sitrus) it can't come in with impunity [this is arguably an asset overall], however it can tank the attack if it is already in, and Punishment does cleanly 2HKO all variants of Latios. The low PP is an issue, but Horn Leech on the other end addresses that. Once in, this set threatens Politoed with a combination of status immunity and healing, being able to shrug off even SpecsToed attacks via Horn Leech healing enough to keep out of KO range (watch out for Focus Blast's SpD drop.) It's true Politoed can try and outspeed with 156 EVs in Spe and 100 in HP, which will allow it to avoid a chance of OHKO after Stealth Rock (and KO CAP 5 with Ice Beam if SR is on our side of the field) - but that's a generally assinine thing to do because absolutely nothing valuable but CAP 5 sits at 214 Spe. It won't stop people from trying it, but it causes Politoed to lose to other things. You can circumvent this entirely by running 148 Atk and 104 Spe EVs, but that makes the matchup with CM Latias harder by allowing Latias to Recover-stall out Punishment's PP reliably - it needs the BP boost to reliably 2HKO. In general with LumRest, do not assume you can switch in unscathed. Unlike Sitrus, the set doesn't have anything approximating passive healing, so it can tank easily once in, but is harder to get in safely against highly specific, damage-boosted threats. The set itself is much more a hybrid of offense and defense. It rarely gets OHKOs, however it has a multitude of 2HKOs and its Horn Leech can break SubDisable Gengar's Sub. Here are some relevant offensive and defensive calcs: Offensive Calcs Milotic (OU RestTalk) Horn Leech 46.19 - 54.82% Punishment 18.52 - 22.08% Tyranitar (OU Choice Band) Horn Leech 46.63 - 54.92% Punishment 9.32 - 10.88% Roserade (OU Toxic Spikes) Punishment 48.09 - 56.48% Horn Leech 14.88 - 17.55% Cloyster (OU Shell Smash) Horn Leech 48.13 - 58.09% Punishment 19.91 - 23.65% Suicune (OU Offensive Calm Mind) Horn Leech 51.02 - 60.41% Punishment 20.23 - 24.04% Latios (OU Dual Screens) Punishment 51.09 - 60.98% Horn Leech 15.93 - 18.95% Tyranitar (OU Choice Scarf) Horn Leech 52.63 - 61.98% Punishment 10.52 - 12.28% Exeggutor (OU Swords Dance) Punishment 54.21 - 63.85% Horn Leech 16.56 - 19.87% Exeggutor (OU Mixed) Punishment 54.38 - 64.04% Horn Leech 16.61 - 19.93% Hippowdon (OU Tank) Horn Leech 40.57 - 48.3% Punishment 16.18 - 19.56% Politoed (OU Defensive) Horn Leech 43.75 - 52.08% Punishment 17.44 - 21.09% Celebi (OU Offensive) Punishment 43.94 - 52.39% Horn Leech 13.52 - 16.05% Tyranitar (OU Support) Horn Leech 44.55 - 52.47% Punishment 8.91 - 10.39% Reuniclus (OU Offensive Trick Room) Punishment 44.49 - 52.81% Horn Leech 27.87 - 33% Xatu (OU Totem Pole (Standard)) Punishment 45.04 - 52.85% Horn Leech 13.81 - 16.21% Jellicent (OU Utility Counter) Horn Leech 45.16 - 53.59% Punishment 36.22 - 43.17% Slowbro (OU Choice Specs) Horn Leech 45.68 - 53.8% Punishment 36.54 - 43.14% Golurk (OU Support) Horn Leech 45.54 - 53.92% Punishment 36.64 - 43.97% Celebi (OU Nasty Plot) Punishment 45.74 - 54.54% [(75.65 - 89.73% at +2)] Horn Leech 14.07 - 16.71% Latias (OU Calm Mind) Punishment 46.7 - 56.04% Horn Leech 14.56 - 17.3% Latios (OU Dual Screens) Punishment 51.09 - 60.98% Horn Leech 15.93 - 18.95% Latias (OU Offensive) Punishment 56.29 - 67.54% Horn Leech 17.54 - 20.86% Rotom-W (OU Specially Defensive) Horn Leech 61.38 - 71.94% Punishment 24.75 - 29.04% Latios (OU Choice) Punishment 61.58 - 73.5% Horn Leech 19.2 - 22.84% Politoed (OU Choice Specs) Horn Leech 64.06 - 75.52% Punishment 25.78 - 30.46% Rotom-W (OU Bulky Attacker) Horn Leech 64.8 - 75.95% Punishment 25.43 - 30.31% Mamoswine (OU Physical Attacker) Horn Leech 64.64 - 76.24% Punishment 25.69 - 30.66% Mamoswine (OU Stealth Rock) Horn Leech 64.81 - 76.45% Punishment 25.76 - 30.74% Keldeo (OU Choice Scarf) Horn Leech 65.43 - 77.77% Punishment 12.96 - 15.74% Keldeo (OU SubCM) Horn Leech 65.63 - 78.01% Punishment 13 - 15.78% Terrakion (OU Stealth Rock) Horn Leech 65.63 - 78.01% Punishment 13 - 15.78% Starmie (OU Defensive Rapid Spin) Horn Leech 68.51 - 81.48% Punishment 55.55 - 65.43% Politoed (OU Choice Scarf) Horn Leech 76.39 - 90.06% Punishment 30.74 - 36.33% Rotom-W (OU Choice) Horn Leech 76.85 - 90.08% Punishment 30.99 - 36.36% Starmie (OU Rain Dance Spinner) Horn Leech 84.73 - 100.76% Punishment 68.7 - 80.91% Starmie (OU Standard) Horn Leech 85.05 - 101.14% Punishment 68.96 - 81.22% Gengar (OU Offensive 3 Attacks) Punishment 89.65 - 105.74% Horn Leech 27.58 - 32.95% Gengar (OU Substitute + Disable) Punishment 90.07 - 106.1% Horn Leech 27.86 - 33.2% Gastrodon (OU Tank) Horn Leech 124.88 - 147.41% Punishment 24.88 - 29.57% Gastrodon (OU Choice Specs) Horn Leech 126.05 - 148.88% Punishment 25.31 - 29.77% Dugtrio (OU Revenge Killer) Horn Leech 150.71 - 177.25% Punishment 60.18 - 71.56% Dugtrio (OU Reversal) Horn Leech 159.43 - 187.73% Punishment 63.67 - 75% Defensive Calcs (Assume Sun) Azelf (OU Physical Choice [Choice Scarf]) U-turn 113.94 - 135.31% Fire Punch 91.98 - 108.6% Infernape (OU Choice Scarf) Close Combat 114.54 - 135.31% U-turn 89.02 - 105.63% Landorus (OU Choice Scarf) U-turn 113.94 - 135.31% Stone Edge 40.94 - 48.36% Breloom (OU Choice Scarf) Force Palm 113.94 - 134.12% Stone Edge 41.83 - 49.55% Gyarados (OU Substitute + Dragon Dance) Bounce 113.94 - 134.12% Waterfall 13.35 - 15.72% Cloyster (OU Utility) Icicle Spear 109.79 - 133.53% Ice Shard 34.42 - 41.54% Mamoswine (OU Choice Scarf) Superpower 110.97 - 130.56% Icicle Spear 103.26 - 124.62% Breloom (OU Swords Dance [Life Orb]) Mach Punch 108.9 - 128.18% Bullet Seed 50.74 - 59.64% Keldeo (OU SubCM) Secret Sword 106.82 - 126.4% Hydro Pump 8.01 - 9.49% Dragonite (OU Dragon Dance) Fire Punch 106.23 - 125.22% Outrage 84.86 - 100% Galvantula (OU Life Orb) Bug Buzz 103.26 - 124.92% HP Ice 27.89 - 33.23% Hydreigon (OU Choice Specs) Fire Blast 104.45 - 123.44% U-turn 73.59 - 86.64% Moltres (OU Offensive [Sharp Beak]) Fire Blast 105.04 - 123.44% Hurricane 84.27 - 99.7% Tyranitar (OU Choice Scarf) Superpower 103.26 - 121.66% Stone Edge 64.39 - 75.96% Virizion (OU Work Up) Close Combat 102.07 - 121.06% HP Ice 18.39 - 21.95% Volcarona (OU Substitute) Bug Buzz 100.89 - 121.06% Fiery Dance 68.24 - 80.71% Venomoth (OU Quiver Dance Sweeper) Bug Buzz 101.78 - 120.47% HP Ground 13.05 - 15.72% Salamence (OU Dragon Dance [Life Orb]) Outrage 101.18 - 119.28% Fire Blast 60.83 - 72.4% Hydreigon (OU Mixed Attacker [Expert Belt]) Fire Blast 83.97 - 99.1% Superpower 83.38 - 98.21% Breloom (OU Swords Dance) Mach Punch 83.67 - 98.51% Bullet Seed 38.27 - 45.4% Skarmory (OU Specially Defensive) Brave Bird 82.49 - 97.92% Jirachi (OU Substitute + Paralysis) Fire Punch 78.93 - 93.17% Iron Head 42.13 - 49.85% Dragonite (OU Rain Mixed Attacker) Hurricane 78.63 - 92.58% ExtremeSpeed 39.46 - 46.58% Dragonite (OU Tank [Life Orb]) Fire Blast 78.63 - 92.58% Draco Meteor 45.4 - 53.7% Exeggutor (OU Swords Dance) Low Kick 78.04 - 91.69% Wood Hammer 43.32 - 51.03% Kingdra (OU Mixed Dragon Dance [Life Orb]) Outrage 78.04 - 91.69% HP Fire 37.09 - 43.91% Salamence (OU Choice Scarf) Outrage 77.74 - 91.69% Dragon Claw 51.92 - 61.42% Hippowdon (OU Tank [Life Orb]) Ice Fang 70.32 - 83.38% Stone Edge 54 - 63.5% Celebi (OU Specially Defensive) U-turn 70.02 - 83.08% Giga Drain 6.82 - 8.01% Celebi (OU Offensive) U-turn 70.02 - 83.08% Leaf Storm 17.5 - 20.47% Celebi (OU Choice Scarf) U-turn 70.02 - 83.08% HP Ice 21.36 - 25.51% Hydreigon (OU Substitute) Fire Blast 70.02 - 82.49% Focus Blast 46.88 - 55.19% Latios (OU Choice [Choice Specs]) HP Fire 57.56 - 68.24% Draco Meteor 57.27 - 67.65% Politoed (OU Choice Specs) Focus Blast 56.37 - 66.46% Ice Beam 44.51 - 52.81% Gengar (OU Substitute + Pain Split) Focus Blast 56.97 - 67.95% Shadow Ball 14.54 - 16.91% Gengar (OU Offensive 3 Attacks [Life Orb]) Focus Blast 56.97 - 67.95% HP Fire 51.03 - 60.23% Mamoswine (OU Stealth Rock) Ice Shard 55.19 - 65.87% Earthquake 34.42 - 40.65% Exeggutor (OU Special Attacker [Life Orb]) HP Fire 53.11 - 63.2% Leaf Storm 26.7 - 31.45% Gyarados (OU Choice Scarf) Ice Fang 53.41 - 62.9% Stone Edge 40.94 - 48.36% Landorus (OU Gravity) Stone Edge 53.11 - 62.9% Earthquake 40.05 - 47.18% Ferrothorn (OU Standard) Gyro Ball 52.52 - 61.72% Power Whip 23.73 - 27.89% Empoleon (OU Choice Specs) Ice Beam 51.03 - 60.53% Hydro Pump 11.86 - 14.24% Empoleon (OU Choice Specs [Torrent]) Ice Beam 51.03 - 60.53% Hydro Pump 17.8 - 21.36% Latias (OU Offensive [Choice Specs]) HP Fire 51.03 - 60.53% Draco Meteor 50.74 - 59.94% Virizion (OU Calm Mind) Focus Blast 50.44 - 60.53% HP Ice 20.17 - 24.33% Latios (OU Offensive [Life Orb]) HP Fire 51.03 - 60.23% Draco Meteor 49.85 - 59.05% Reuniclus (OU Calm Mind [Life Orb]) Focus Blast 45.4 - 54% Alakazam (OU Special Attacker) Focus Blast 45.1 - 53.41% HP Ice 26.7 - 31.45% Gastrodon (OU Choice Specs) Ice Beam 45.1 - 53.41% Earth Power 16.02 - 18.69% Venusaur (OU Physical Growth) Return 45.1 - 53.11% HP Fire 33.82 - 40.05% Tangrowth (OU Chlorophyll Sweeper) Power Whip 44.8 - 52.81% HP Fire 35.6 - 42.43% Gengar (OU Substitute + Disable) Focus Blast 43.91 - 52.22% Shadow Ball 10.97 - 13.05% Gengar (OU Offensive 3 Attacks) Focus Blast 43.91 - 52.22% HP Fire 39.16 - 46.29% Zapdos (OU SubRoost) Heat Wave 43.91 - 52.22% Thunderbolt 10.38 - 12.46% Dragonite (OU Tank (Rain)) Hurricane 43.32 - 51.63% Dragon Tail 28.78 - 34.12% Ninetales (OU Defensive) Flamethrower 43.32 - 51.63% (none) 0 - 0% Starmie (OU Choice Specs) Ice Beam 43.32 - 51.63% Thunderbolt 10.68 - 12.75% Reuniclus (OU Calm Mind) Focus Blast 35.01 - 41.54% Politoed (OU Special Attacker) Ice Beam 30.26 - 35.6% Hydro Pump 6.82 - 8.01% I'm trying not to be too overgrown in the calcs, but I think its important to represent threats that may rise based on CAP 5's usage, and in this set particularly since it offers sun support. While it could theoretically be used as a Spinner in other weathers, as you see from the defensive calculations, LumRest is hardly invulnerable (and HATES HP loss from Sandstorm), and even if you used the more defensive spread above, you still have a lot of issues due to limited power. This set is particularly good for picking off the Psychic-type Calm Minders in the metagame, and using a combination of Lum Rest and Horn Leech on switch-ins to stay healthy. Low Kick could be used over Sunny Day or even Horn Leech to change some matchups (particularly against Tyranitar and other Dark types, but as you can see from the offensive calculations, even EVs for Attack CAP 5 is not even remotely close to a sweeper. Conclusion: This spread steps all over Lati@s and Politoed, but does so in a way that affords it few other niches. It is not strong enough to be an offensive powerhouse. Its speed acts much better as a floor than it does a ceiling. It does not have enough physical bulk to be a general wall. Its entire spread is geared around support to and from Sun Pokemon with the maximum number of potential options. Aesthetically it is actually rather balanced, having a huge special defense offset by a small but existent Special Attack exactly 50 points below its Attack. It is a Pokemon geared around a single defining strong point customized to aid a specific style of play, and I hope it earns your votes. __________________ [17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me? [17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner [17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol [17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either [17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages [17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod. [17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal. [17:57] <Birkal> >:\| Last edited by Deck Knight; Mar 8th, 2013 at 6:37:42 AM.

Mar 4th, 2013, 10:21:12 PM	#5
capefeather Here's my mega plan: YOU DIE Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,636 I'm a super fighting robot from the year 2010	Final Submission "Vaporeon of the sun" 95 HP / 100 Atk / 60 Def / 50 SpA / 130 SpD / 65 Spe PT: 103.6304949955 (Above Average) ST: 216.1776890862 (Fantastic) PS: 116.7426879311 (Above Average) SS: 72.789163561 (Poor) BSR: 271.2012056165 (Good) BST: 500 I say "Vaporeon of the sun" because I used the Eeveelution base stats as a base and adjusted them. When Harvest won the poll, I knew I wanted to use Vaporeon as a base. However, I guess that this result is kind of different from Vaporeon... Anyway, because of this methodology, this spread: only has one stat over 100! Outstanding has a lower BST than Kitsunoh! Excellent works with the ability we chose! ~*SPARKLING~ The last point is very, very important to the reasoning behind this submission, so please keep it in mind! HP / Defense* Let's get the less important stuff out of the way first. With this spread, CAP 5 is a bit bulkier physically than the defensive titan that is Shiftry, and less bulky physically than Latios. This is enough to avoid 2HKOs from unboosted resisted attacks like Choice Scarf Landorus Therian's Earthquake without any investment, but not much else. I know that some people have a bit more than this to have options for shenanigans with physical defensive sets, but I'm not sure of how important that is. FWIW, though, here are some things this spread can do with maximum investment: 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 160-189 (40.6 - 47.96%) -- 9.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 240-283 (60.91 - 71.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 272-324 (69.03 - 82.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Flying Gem Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 308-366 (78.17 - 92.89%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Caterpie Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 192-228 (48.73 - 57.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Now, a few other spreads have more physical bulk, selling themselves on customization, but from these calculations, it seems clear to me that a majority of the clutch situations are achieved even by submissions like this one. I mean, even Shiftry technically can survive Choice Band Haxorus's Outrage. So it doesn't really take a whole lot to be "customizable" in this way. At the same time, it seems it would take more than other spreads have to make these situations better than clutch. HP / Special Defense So now for the important part. I wouldn't be surprised if my submission became the one of the least specially bulky of the bunch, but it's still well above Latias's level. Check it out, the most relevant damage calculations for this spread (and possibly others): 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 205-243 (52.03 - 61.67%) -2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 103-123 (26.14 - 31.21%) 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 179-212 (45.43 - 53.8%) -2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 90-107 (22.84 - 27.15%) This spread has barely enough bulk to take on Stealth Rock damage and two Draco Meteors from Life Orb Latios and live to tell about it... if it runs maximum EVs and a Careful nature. I have intentionally made it so that this spread cannot reliably take on Choice Specs Latios in the same way. In fact, the median damage for two Choice Specs Draco Meteors is 337, just shy of the 345 HP that 252 HP CAP 5 would have after Stealth Rock damage. 125 SpD would have put the median at 346. The reason for this is simple: I want to force CAP 5 to use Harvest intelligently to do its job based on the rest of the team's needs. If CAP 5 wants to take on Choice Specs Latios's Draco Meteor reliably, it must use a Sitrus Berry, which will supercharge its effective tanking ability to ridiculous levels. It would also help against Life Orb special attackers, since it's not like CAP 5 will come in at full HP guaranteed. Alternatively, take Lum Berry to counter defensive variants of Politoed and Wash Rotom, and let Choice Specs Latios 2HKO you. I mentioned the median because I want the matchup against Choice Specs to have a similar probability of CAP 5's survival between having no Sitrus Berry (a bit above 50%) and not having sun up (50%). A major benefit with this approach is that the consistency of Harvest ends up mattering a lot more. I'm actually kind of bewildered at the idea of high Fantastic or even Amazing grade special bulk. Consider that a more defensive Pokemon will eat more turns, which means that the inconsistency of Harvest outside of sun is less harmful to a more defensive Pokemon than it is to a less defensive Pokemon. With this more focused spread, the sun becomes that much more important to the usefulness of Harvest as an ability on a sun team, as well as the usefulness of the sun team to Harvest. Besides, does a sun team really need a Pokemon that can completely and utterly counter Latios/Latias and defensive Water-types simultaneously? A prevailing attitude that I've been seeing is that Harvest is a dangerous and unpredictable ability, therefore we should be very careful, even paranoid, about every aspect of CAP 5 going forward. I disagree with that view. I hope that I have convinced you that the best way to get the most out of the actual concept is to make the best use of its ability. For me, that means making Harvest part of the balancing process, rather than balancing in spite of Harvest. Harvest is our friend, not our enemy, and I feel that some people who were really against Harvest in the ability stage are missing this point. Attack The Attack achieves the following: 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 206-246 (68.21 - 81.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 188-224 (51.64 - 61.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0+ Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 228-270 (75.49 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (needs 24 EVs to KO after Stealth Rock and one turn of Life Orb recoil) On Latios, the first calculation is a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and two turns of Life Orb recoil. Power Whip also does decently enough against Water-types, should we choose to give it to CAP 5: 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 326-386 (84.89 - 100.52%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 242-288 (84.32 - 100.34%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 242-288 (60.04 - 71.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 296-350 (91.35 - 108.02%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 284-336 (87.65 - 103.7%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 236-282 (58.41 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I don't see a compelling reason to give CAP 5 much more Attack than this. I gave Necturna 120 Attack because it mattered for coverage moves. The highest Attack on a Grass-type with Power Whip is 105. I don't see a reason to exceed that for CAP 5. If you want to beat defensive stuff like defensive Politoed and Wash Rotom without risking a burn, just use Lum Berry... Overall special tanking capability Let's see how CAP 5 fares against some of our other targets: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 202-238 (51.26 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 158-188 (40.1 - 47.71%) -- guaranteed 3HKO +1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom) in sun: 270-320 (68.52 - 81.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 173-204 (43.9 - 51.77%) -- 9.77% chance to 2HKO +1 4 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom) in sun: 148-176 (37.56 - 44.67%) -- 3.91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock +1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 230-270 (58.37 - 68.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 127-150 (32.23 - 38.07%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 211-250 (53.55 - 63.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock -2 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 107-126 (27.15 - 31.97%) -- 66.09% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 130-154 (32.99 - 39.08%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 122-144 (30.96 - 36.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock Fully invested CAP 5 can take most of Choice Specs Politoed's attacks pretty well. It also survives the strongest attack that Calm Mind Latios can muster against it after a boost, which is enough time to bring it into Life Orb kill range with 80 Base Power STAB. Now, Calm Mind Latias does have a slight chance to 2HKO with Hidden Power Fire after Stealth Rock, but by then you know it's not running Substitute. It's just not a reliable way to break through a sun team that probably also has Heatran, and CAP 5 could always be running Sitrus Berry, too! The rest of the calculations are for investment in HP only, and it shows that CAP 5 could feasibly sacrifice its ability to tank the very strongest attacks it would typically switch into, in order to put those EVs and nature to use elsewhere (and of course there's always Sitrus Berry, too). CAP 5 does not need much to KO Latios with the help of passive damage. It can still mostly tank Choice Scarf variants of Politoed and Keldeo, as well as Choice Specs Keldeo unless it uses an easily exploitable Ice-type move. So while my submission is rather minimalist in comparison to other submissions, it retains some semblance of customization, especially with an ability as versatile as Harvest. Speed I originally went with 75 base Speed, but ultimately 65 sounds a lot more sensible. 65 is fast enough to have the option to outrun Lati@s with a Choice Scarf, but slow enough that it has to play the speed creeping game against threats like Scizor, Politoed, Skarmory and Jellicent... at least, if it cares to, at the cost of some of its bulk. Creeping Politoed is a good option to have because, unlike Latios, it has Drizzle, and as I've said, one of the goals of this submission is to make the consistency of Harvest matter in CAP 5's run-ins with these powerful attackers. Latios may very well be in the sun, while Politoed likely won't be. Special Attack Of course, the most important stat is Special Attack. CAP 5's special attacking prowess is very important when it comes to dealing with certain threats, but of course we need to be careful about this. At 50, CAP 5's Special Attack exceeds that of the mighty Weavile, which 2HKOes Scizor and Forretress with Hidden Power Fire after Stealth Rock damage. However, I was careful not to let it outdo the monstrous Ferrothorn, because that would just be madness. I'm aware that I'm probably taking some significant risks here, but I am anticipating a wave of similar spreads that are similar to each other, and I feel that it would benefit the process as a whole to have this option available. I'm not sure there's anything I could really change about this submission without messing something up. __________________ If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will always be empty. <+joshe> im a registered sex offender for up to calc 3 <%V4> Naruto is climaxing! <+Reflect_Suicune> i was thining of fucking jellicent for some reason Last edited by capefeather; Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:37:32 PM. Reason: more/rearranged explanations for the final submission

Mar 4th, 2013, 10:31:53 PM	#6
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,758 Greece	Final Submission: 91 HP / 82 Atk / 66 Def / 34 SpA / 140 SpD / 112 Spe PT: 110.156 (Above Average) ST: 226.007 (Amazing) PS: 144.401 (Good) SS: 69.1701 (Poor) BSR: 297.506 (Good) BST: 525 Reasoning: Why this PT and ST? ... The combined PT and ST allow the CAP to take certain attacks. Here is what i mean (certain attacks vs the CAP): Modest Scarf Politoed's Ice Beam: 34.71 - 40.93%, never a 2HKO after SR. The CAP then OHKOes with Power Whip after SR and 8 EVs in Attack (87.85 - 103.42%) Modest Specs Politoed's Ice Beam: 51.29 - 60.62%, never a 2HKO after the CAP uses Horn Leech with 8 Atk EVs, without SR (Horn Leech does 178 damage min to 252 HP Politoed) Specs Latios's Draco Meteor: 66.32 - 78.49%, never a OHKO after SR and sandstorm damage, so that the CAP can wall Latios with Rest as DM gets weaker and weaker LO Starmie's Ice Beam: 43.78 - 51.81%, guaranteed 2HKO after SR. This is something positive actually, as i don't want the CAP to surefire counter Starmie, in addition to Politoed, especially if the CAP is going to have Pursuit. I think we should at least leave to Starmie a fighting chance against us. On the other hand, two LO Ice Beams is the only way that Starmie has to 2HKO the CAP, as the CAP can even survive a rain boosted Hydro Pump + Ice Beam after SR, still making for an excellent switch-in to any variant of Starmie. Scarf or Leftovers Keldeo's Secret Sword: 101.03 - 118.65%, unconditional OHKO. I don't think that the CAP should survive and act as a last minute answer to Leftovers or Scarf Keldeo, barely taking the hit and then OHKOing back. Not without defense investment and Chople Berry at least. CB Tyranitar's Stone Edge: 100.25 - 118.13%, unconditional OHKO. Same case with Keldeo. If for some reason Ttar stays into the CAP it should always OHKO back. The sun team would trap Ttar with Dugtrio after anyway, so wouldn't it suck for the Ttar player to make such a sacrifice only for what is supposed to be a physically defensive frail mon to barely survive and possibly come back to life after, which is not that hard to do with such a big Speed stat? After all the CAP has the same PT as Gliscor's ST, which is considered frail on the special side and is usually OHKOed by strong STAB attacks, so the same should be true for the CAP. LO Jolly Breloom's Mach Punch: 93 - 109.84%, OHKO after SR. No need to explain a lot here. This is the weakest Techinican Breloom one can encounter and it should always be able to revenge kill the CAP assuming standard conditions (SR on the field). So this pretty much is my reasoning for the PT and ST. Enough special bulk for the CAP to wall what we want it to (Lati@s, Politoed, and Starmie being the strongest of those Pokemon), and enough physical bulk for the CAP to switch into uninvested resisted STAB moves while still dying to powerful neutral physical hits (CB Tyranitar's Stone Edge) or super effective strong hits (Breloom's Mach Punch). Why this Speed? ... As i have somewhat explained in the stat limits thread, i want a high Speed stat for the CAP. The reason is because a fast pivot fits better on sun teams than a slow or an moderately fast pivot. Offensive teams love Pokemon that get to make decisions first, and Sun teams are no exceptions. With this Speed stat, the CAP can outspeed Lati@s with an EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Spe, and then be the first one to act on the next turn. It can either use Rapid Spin, weaken or OHKO Lati@s, or just heal. This is just an example... By being so fast the CAP can get a last minute heal, spin or attack, giving it much more chances of acting than the stat spreads that are slower than Lati@s do (and generally slower stat spreads). With so much Speed, even if the CAP loses a lot of health due to missprediction or a critical hit, it can still get a chance to be useful later in the match as long as it finds a free switch-in (after something dies, predicted resisted moves, etc). This is not the case for slower spreads, which get outsped by almost every offensive Pokemon and thus have much less room for errors, as if they lose too much life and get forced out it will be very difficult for them to find a chance to do something again. Finally with this Speed, the CAP can outrun Tornadus too, which is a legitimate threat for Sun teams, which usually don't have any safe switch-ins to it and have to bang on a 50-50 coin flip with Ninetales. While of 'course the CAP cannot even check Tornadus, it can certainly give it less switch-in opportunities against Sun teams, and revenge kill it after it loses half of its life, which is reasonable i think. Why this PS and SS? ... Well now that i explained my choice about the Speed stat i can more easily explain those choices. The Attack stat that i chose was the highest that i could with the limit of max 145 PS. It's still a good attack and allows the CAP to 2HKO Latios with Punishment or Crunch without SR (most of the time with Punishment and always with Crunch), unconditionally 2HKO 252 HP Latias after a CM with Punishment, and OHKO 4 HP Politoed with Power Whip, 8 Atk EVs and after SR. The PS is still pretty low for an offensive role, especially with no coverage against Steel, Fighting, and Fire types, something that is already decided by our threatlist. Low PT and weakness to two common priority moves (Ice Shard and Mach Punch) don't help the CAP to take an offensive role either. So, even with a good PS i don't think the CAP will commonly use any offensive set, meaning that the CAP's role as a pivot won't be overshadowed by potential offensive sets. As for the SS, it was simply what i was left to work with. The closest SS that i can get with a max limit of 75 and a Speed stat of 112 is 37, but i went for 34 for aesthetic reasons. However, if someone has a good reason as to why i should use the leftovers 3 stat points in SpA i could definitely use them. I won't really say anything else about SS, as everything is known already... We don't want HP Fire to kill Steels under sun, as they are supposed to wall us, so we need a low SpA stat. Possible Sets: Fast Pivot EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 Spe with a Jolly Nature Stats: 386 HP / 202 Atk / 168 Def / 93 SpA / 316 SpD / 354 Spe Possible moveset: Power Whip or Horn Leech / Crunch or Punishment / Rest / Rapid Spin Item: Lum Berry What this set does This set takes advantage of the 112 Speed to its fullest. With max Speed investment the CAP is able to outspeed Lati@s and either threaten them with a Dark type attack, Rest to weaken the incoming DM, or get a Rapid Spin off before either of the Latis finishes off with HP Fire. It can also act as an ok revenge killer against certain weakened offensive Pokemon weak to its STABs, such as Terrakion and Keldeo. The power of this set lies in its good Speed and the ability to come, take a hit, and then either pivot to a teammate or get a Rapid Spin off. With that much Speed the CAP also needs to spend less time recovering than other slower stat spreads, giving more chances to the CAP to support the team. Overall this may be the best set with this spread, as it does many things and it does them reliably, but still faces the flaws that we want it to (easily walled or set-up on, weak from the physical side, weak to priority). I have already provided calcs for this spread in my stat submission post so if you want them go and check it. The 8 Atk EVs allow the CAP to OHKO Scarf Politoed after SR with Power Whip. Bulky Pivot EVs: 252 HP / 164 Atk / 80 SpD / 12 Spe with a Careful Nature Stats: 386 HP / 241 Atk / 168 Def / 93 SpA / 369 SpD / 263 Spe Possible moveset: Power Whip or Horn Leech / Payback or Pursuit / Rest or Sub / Rapid Spin Item: Lum Berry / Sitrus Berry What this set does This set transforms the CAP from a Speedy pivot to a bulky attacker. With the Atk investment the CAP OHKOes Latios after SR with Payback (88.07 - 103.97%), max HP Politoed after SR with Power Whip (87.5 - 103.12%), and 2HKOes 252 HP Latias with Payback (65.93 - 78.02%). With Lum Berry it almost always survives two Specs Draco Meteor from Latios without SR (only 1.17% chance to get 2HKOed) and always lives two LO Draco Meteors from Latios after SR. With Sitrus Berry it obviously survives even two Specs DM after SR. This spread also walls LO Starmie, surviving even two LO Ice Beam after SR and OHKOing back with either Power Whip or Horn Leech (to OHKO with Horn Leech you need SR + 1 LO round). The Speed EVs allow the CAP to outspeed max Speed Timid Politoed and the rest are dumbed to HP and SpD for maximum special bulk. Finally the item options depends on whether you want to counter Latios better and spend less time healing, so go for Sitrus, or if you need the status immunity and insta heal, so go for LumRest. Finally, before i finish, i want to explain why there was some poll jumping in my reasoning section. The moves i took as givens are Punshment, Crunch, Power Whip, Rapid Spin, and Rest, which i got the idea from irc that everyone agrees that the CAP should have. So i felt that i could include those moves to show some specific examples, to better make my point. However, that's not to say that if any of those moves isn't picked my stat spread won't be good, as every stat that was chosen has a general purpose. So my stat spread will create a fast, specially bulky, and somewhat versatile pivot to handle Water-types and Lati@s mainly, which is exactly what sun teams need! __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check! Last edited by alexwolf; Mar 7th, 2013 at 6:03:21 PM.

Mar 4th, 2013, 10:43:23 PM	#7
DarkSlay Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,188 Location: CAP, C&C, or RMT!	FINAL SUBMISSION DarkSlay's CAP5 Stat Spread Submission NOTE: TL;DR version of descriptions can be found at the end. Please read if you have the time, though! HP: 90 ATK: 95 DEF: 68 SpA: 40 SpD: 145 SPE: 87 PT: 112.51 ST: 232.119 PS: 141.548 SS: 71.0547 BST: 525 Overall BSR: 302.44 INTRODUCTION: Hello everyone, DarkSlay here with another go at a stat submission for our beloved CAP projects. This time, we've selected a concept that specifically is tailored to deal with certain threats in an effort to change the metagame literally - type usage, to be exact. We have the threat lists, we have our goal (to increase the usage of Sun through eliminating Rain and the Lati twins), and we have our primary ability. One question now remains: how are we going to accomplish our offensive and defensive goals? How will we help Sun teams conquer in the OU tier through CAP5, and how will we eliminate our targets? My stat spread is specifically designed to not only pertain to the concept, but allow the player to customize the Pokemon so that he can deal with our intended* targets in different ways. It has the option to add on extra defense through EV's to ease hits from Lati@s just enough. It also has the ability to run enough offensive EV's to guarantee certain KO's against those same Pokemon. Essentially, this spread's main focus is to show that there is more than one way to deal with targets without straying away from the concept.* THE STATS: HP: As some of you may or may not be aware, CAP projects in the past have predominantly featured projects with a high level of HP, due to the general "overall" bulk the CAP receives as a result. I am a proponent of increasing the individual defensive stats, especially in cases where we're looking for polarization, rather than increasing the HP stat. We know that the community wants to beat opposing types that commonly specialize in Special attacks (Water, Psychic, Ghost, Electric), while having a vulnerability towards typings that rely on Physical attacks (Steel, Fighting, Bug, etc.). To me, this dictates a sub-100 base HP stat. However, since CAP5 has been primarily discussed as a "bulky" answer to some of the top threats we're trying to face, it's also important that it can tank a few resists and neutral attacks in the process. Therefore, an HP stat of 90 seems optimal in this situation. If one were to define a 90 base HP value, it would probably be "average" or "solid". Not bad, but not great either. It allows for polarization while still maintaining a solid, bulky build. To me, per the concept, that's what we need. ATK: It seems that the consensus of the community is that CAP5 will threaten opposing targets physically rather than specially, since most targets have decent SpD bulk naturally and/or access to Calm Mind. To this, I can agree with. However, in order for the concept to be successful, we must also tailor our offensive stats so that it doesn't become offensive enough in all situations. Therefore, without investment, I firmly believe that 2HKO's should be the goal against the Lati twins, and that kind of power is definitely enough to deal with targets. With investment, we should also be able to score near-guaranteed OHKO's barely. As a result, 95 is an ideal Attack stat in which we can guarantee certain KO ranges against some of the bigger threats we're trying to defeat. Here are some STAB calculations against some of our biggest targets: Attack Calcs (Neutral Nature) 0 EV's Crunch/Pursuit/Sucker Punch (80 BP): 4/0 Latios: 66.22 - 78.14% (guaranteed 2HKO) 252/4 Latios: 54.94 - 64.83% (guaranteed 2HKO) 4/0 Latias: 60.26 - 71.52% (guaranteed 2HKO) 252/0 Latias: 50 - 59.34% (guaranteed 2HKO after SR unless Lefties) 4/0 Gengar: 96.18 - 112.97% (75% chance to OHKO) 0/4 Thundurus-T: 36.45 - 43.47% (3HKO, 94.92% chance to 2HKO after SR) 248/216+ Jellicent: 38.7 - 46.15% (guaranteed 3HKO) 0/0 Starmie: 72.03 - 85.82% (guaranteed 2HKO) 252/0 Starmie: 58.02 - 69.13% (guaranteed 2HKO) Power Whip: 252/0 Politoed: 81.77 - 96.87% (guaranteed 2HKO, 62.5% chance to OHKO after SR) 252/252+ Politoed: 56.25 - 66.14% (guaranteed 2HKO) 184/4 Rotom-W: 81.53 - 96.16% (guaranteed 2HKO, 56.25% chance to OHKO after SR) 4/0 Rotom-W: 97.52 - 114.87% (81.25% chance to OHKO) 248/0 Rotom-W: 77.88 - 91.74% (guaranteed 2HKO, 31.25% chance to OHKO after SR) 248/216+ Jellicent: 58.06 - 68.48% (guaranteed 2HKO) 4/0 Jolteon: 69 - 81.91% (guaranteed 2HKO) 252 EV's Crunch/Pursuit/Sucker Punch (80 BP): 4/0 Latios: 84.1 - 100% (6.25% chance to OHKO, 75% after SR) 252/4 Latios: 69.78 - 82.41% (guaranteed 2HKO) 4/0 Latias: 76.15 - 90.06% (guaranteed 2HKO, 18.75% to OHKO after SR) 252/0 Latias: 63.18 - 74.72% (guaranteed 2HKO) 4/0 Gengar: 122.13 - 144.27% (Guaranteed OHKO) 0/4 Thundurus-T: 47.15 - 55.51% (74% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed after SR) 248/216+ Jellicent: 49.13 - 58.06% (56.25% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed 2HKO after SR) 0/0 Starmie: 92.72 - 110.34% (56.25% chance to OHKO, guaranteed OHKO after SR) 252/0 Starmie: 74.69 - 88.88% (guaranteed 2HKO, 12.5% chance to OHKO after SR) Power Whip: 252/0 Politoed: 104.68 - 123.43% (guaranteed OHKO) 252/252+ Politoed: 70.83 - 84.37% (guaranteed 2HKO) 184/4 Rotom-W: 104.52 - 123.34% (guaranteed OHKO) 248/0 Rotom-W: 99 - 116.83% (87.5% chance to OHKO) 248/216+ Jellicent: 73.44 - 86.84% (guaranteed 2HKO) 4/0 Jolteon: 87.82 - 104.05% (25% chance to OHKO, guaranteed OHKO after SR) DEF: Like we've previously discussed, we're aiming for a lower physical defense value due to our desired checks/counters relying on the Physical spectrum (with exception of some of the more popular Fire types, which is a powerful typing in general anyway). Therefore, a low Defense stat is desired. 68 is definitely below average, where super effective Physical moves will more often than not gravely injure CAP5. I don't have a terrible amount more to say about this, since...yeah, obviously 90/68 defenses equate to our checks and counters winning against CAP5 physically. That said, here's a few (read: very few) calcs to back up my point at CAP5's lowest defensive investment: Defense Calcs (Neutral Nature) CBScizor's Bullet Punch: 87.24 - 102.75% (18.75% chance of a OHKO, 93.75% chance after SR) OU Physical Attacker Breloom's Mach Punch: 137.24 - 162.41% (OHKO) Bulk Up Conkeldurr's Mach Punch (unboosted): 81.37 - 97.24% (guaranteed 2HKO, 62.5% chance of a OHKO after SR) SpA: Oh thank goodness, a short section without need for calculations. We've pretty much determined that CAP5 is not going to have a competitively viable Special Attack, and 40 pretty much ensures that. Mine is "higher" than others for flavor reasons, mostly. 40 is a number that's common on some Pokes without it being too low. Enjoy this break from reading! SpD: This is CAP5's largest stat, and for good reason: our desired targets are Special Attack monsters. Lati@s, Politoed, Rotom-W, Thundurus-T, Jolteon, and the slew of other Pokemon we want to lower in usage all rely on powerful/boosted STAB attacks that are in the Special category. While our typing does help us alleviate the Water and Psychic issue slightly, we still must deal with the common coverage moves these Pokemon possess, namely neutral moves like Dragon. However, we must also realize that too big of a Special Defense stat could hurt the ability of some of our selected checks and counters as well. When stat spreads were first being developed, a lot of spreads had the bulk to survive Heatran's Fire Blast in certain situations. That's not good. Therefore, combined with the rather average 90 HP stat, a 145 SpD stat gives CAP5 ample amount of bulk to survive monstrous hits from Draco Meteors and the like while its other attributes, like Harvest, peacefully cooperate as a unit to take out our targets. Not only that, but since all the stats emphasize customization, there's a good chance that all of the neutral/resisted attacks we want to tank will be tailored to prevent OHKO's and 2HKO's any which way we see fit. Here's a good number of calcs demonstrating the magnitude of CAP5's Special bulk with zero investment: Special Defensive Calculations (Neutral Nature) NOTE: All Fire attacks are calculated in the Sun, for maximum potential against CAP5. Our Targets: Choice Specs Latios' Draco Meteor/HP Fire: 77.88 - 92.21% (guaranteed 2HKO, 31.25% chance to OHKO after SR) Offensive Latios' Draco Meteor/HP Fire: 67.91 - 80.06% (guaranteed 2HKO) DS Latios' Dragon Pulse: 27.41 - 32.71% (possible 4HKO) Choice Scarf Latios' Draco Meteor/HP Fire: 51.71 - 61.05% (guaranteed 2HKO) Offensive Latias' Draco Meteor/HP Fire: 59.81 - 71.33% (guaranteed 2HKO) CM Latias' HP Fire: 38 - 44.85% (guaranteed 3HKO) Offensive Gengar's Focus Blast: 77.88 - 91.58% (guaranteed 2HKO, 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) Specs Politoed's Focus Blast: 75.38 - 89.09% (guaranteed 2HKO, 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) Defensive Politoed's Ice Beam: 28.03 - 33.64% (potential 4HKO) Scarf Rotom-W's Hidden Power Ice: 29.9 - 35.51% (25.34% chance to 3HKO) Agility Tornadus-T's Focus Blast: 83.48 - 98.75% (guaranteed 2HKO, 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) +2 NP Tornadus-T's HP Ice: 74.76 - 88.47% (guaranteed 2HKO, 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) Specs Jolteon's HP Ice: 46.1 - 54.82% (58.59% chance to 2HKO, guaranteed after SR) LO Jolteon's HP Ice: 40.49 - 47.66% (guaranteed 3HKO) Our Threats: Specially Defensive Heatran's Lava Plume: 73.52 - 87.85% (guaranteed 2HKO, 6.25% chance of OHKO after SR) Any other Heatran-based common Fire move, on any set: guaranteed OHKO after SR. Defensive Ninetales' Flamethrower: 58.56 - 69.78% (guaranteed 2HKO) Offensive Ninetales' Fire Blast: 97.19 - 114.64% (81.25% chance to OHKO) SPE: I've been asked to provide good analysis as to why my selected speed of 87 was chosen as the correct Speed for CAP5, so here we go! Apologies for the wall of words, but it's necessary. First things first, let's focus on why I selected 87 in the first place. Historically, I take great care into selecting the Speed stat, as it's arguably the most influential stat in determining which Pokemon can do (or not do) something against the CAP project. We want to out-speed Pokemon we absolutely don't want to have any advantage over us, while we want to be slower than Pokemon that are unnecessary per the concept, are 100% dealt with in other ways, are threats to the project because of their Speed, or a combination of these factors. Our targets are Water, Psychic, Electric, and Ghost types. Most popular Electric types are fast, but we deal with them defensively well enough. Ghost are either fast and frail (Gengar) or bulky and slow (Jellicent), the former being dealt with offensively while the latter should be slower than CAP5. Water types like Politoed are also generally slow, and I agree that we need to be faster than Politoed. Where the buck stops in terms of which Pokemon we should absolutely out-Speed, though, should be Rotom-W. Rotom-W is a very unique Pokemon, in that it runs a variety of sets with different roles to take out the same targets (seem familiar?). Rotom-W, however, is infamous for a few major things, mainly Volt Switch and Will-O-Wisp. The former is all about easing prediction for the opponent. If Rotom-W is faster, it has the ability to freely switch out against all non-Ground match-ups and scout most of the opponent's actions on that same turn. Therefore, if Rotom-W out-speeds CAP5, it still succeeds in its job as a scout/momentum shifter and will make life harder for CAP5 as opposed to it being slower. Second point is Will-O-Wisp: If Rotom-W is faster, CAP5 is more susceptible to burns. Simple as that. While CAP5 can run Lum, facing off against Rotom-W teams (Rain teams) will require Lum, limiting item options for dealing with other threats to Sun. I don't think we want that. Anything faster than Rotom-W is either wanted to be faster or irrelevant to the concept, point blank. My set deals with Lati@s in other ways, and both of them are offensive threats to CAP5 that can win only through damage, so speed is irrelevant in these match-ups. Nothing else should be out-sped. Meanwhile, being slower than certain targets makes facing our selected victims tougher for CAP5. It has the potential, in fact, to not change the role of certain Pokemon for Rain teams (Rotom-W in general) and allow Rain/targets to be more successful against CAP5/Sun. That should be reason enough to set an appropriate benchmark. One last thing I want to address in terms of Speed: common sets that do not run certain EV spreads for Speed are irrelevant. This concept is all about changing the metagame. If CAP5 can adapt, so can our targets. If Rotom-W doesn't normally go 252 Timid, that does not mean it never will. Instead of focusing on what's popular now, we should be focusing on the Pokemon themselves and make the player choose what he or she thinks is an appropriate investment for CAP5. What 87 Speed does, though, is guarantee that there is a possibility for CAP5 to always be faster than Rotom-W. If the player desires this and/or if the metagame shifts, that should be an available option. TL;DR: ... This spread's main focus is to show that there is more than one way to deal with targets without straying away from the concept. HP: 90. It allows for polarization while still maintaining a solid, bulky build. Atk: 95. An ideal Attack stat in which we can guarantee certain KO ranges against some of the bigger threats we're trying to defeat without becoming too powerful overall. Def: 68. Below average, where super effective Physical moves will more often than not gravely injure CAP5. SpA: 40. CAP5 is not going to have a competitively viable Special Attack. SpD: 145. gives CAP5 ample amount of bulk to survive monstrous hits from Draco Meteors and the like while its other attributes, like Harvest, peacefully cooperate as a unit to take out our targets. Spe: 87. Rotom-W should be the benchmark, need to feel less pressured against Pokemon we shouldn't feel pressured against in the first place, must look at actual Pokemon rather than current metagame trends. __________________ [23:49:15] <orcinus> potato potato [23:49:16] <orcinus> that really [23:49:23] <orcinus> doesn't have the same effect as when you say it out loud Last edited by DarkSlay; Mar 8th, 2013 at 5:41:12 PM.

Mar 4th, 2013, 10:54:11 PM	#9
*Birkal We have the technology. Super Moderator** Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,070 The Mentor	Final Submission Co-written by Birkal and ginganinja 115 HP / 100 Atk / 60 Def / 40 SpA / 130 SpD / 55 Spe (BST 500) BSR PT: 119 ST: 244 PS: 103 SS: 59 BSR: 282 Let's chat about Speed. I chose 55 Spe (same as Machamp and Blissey) because it's essentially useless, but can have use if you're looking to do something specific. Max speed hits 209 or 229, depending on whether you run a boosting nature or not. Essentially, you can choose to outrun uninvested Tyranitar, Politoed, and even Heatran if you like. I think it's healthy to have some utility for speed, because it allows CAP 5 to outspeed specific threats if the team calls for it, but does not force it. If your sun team has problems with Bulky Politoed, it might not be amiss to invest in that extra speed to beat it. It's definitely not as optimal as investing in bulk, but the option is available to keep opponents on their toes. Naturally, it outspeeds defensive threats like Ferrothorn, Chansey, Forretress, Bronzong, Donphan, Reuniclus, Hippowdon, and Slowbro. This is also better than some of the spreads that completely sacrifice speed to favor other sets; those spreads will likely require EVs to outspeed some of these threats to use whatever support moves it may have. • • • The focus of my spread is that CAP 5 will have to choose what it wants to beat with its EVs and berry selection. You can outpace some of those defensive threats if you choose to invest in the EVs. Otherwise, you can invest in some bulk. Below are some calculations that work off of two spreads: Physically Bulky and Specially Bulky. Both assume sunlight. Physically Bulky Calculations 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def Impish Terrakion (OU Choice Band) Close Combat 132.71 - 156.22% Terrakion (OU Stealth Rock) Close Combat 88.47 - 104.14% Tyranitar (OU Choice Band) Superpower 99.53 - 117.51% Infernape (OU Mixed Attacker) Overheat 111.98 - 132.94% Close Combat 98.84 - 116.82% Keldeo (OU Choice Specs) Secret Sword 94 - 111.05% Keldeo (OU Choice Scarf) Secret Sword 62.67 - 74.65% HP Ice 28.11 - 33.17% Keldeo (OU Calm Mind [Life Orb]) Secret Sword 81.56 - 97% Haxorus (OU Choice Band) Outrage 80.18 - 94.7% Salamence (OU MixMence) Fire Blast 79.72 - 94% Outrage 52.07 - 61.29% Ninetales (OU Special Attacker) Fire Blast 78.8 - 93.08% Ninetales (OU Defensive) Flamethrower 47.46 - 56.68% Landorus (OU Special Attacker) Focus Blast 74.19 - 88.01% Thundurus-T (OU Agility) Focus Blast 67.74 - 80.18% Latios (OU Choice [Choice Specs]) HP Fire 63.13 - 74.65% Draco Meteor 62.9 - 74.19% Latios (OU Choice [Choice Specs]) Draco Meteor (-2) - 31.33 - 37.32% Latios (OU Offensive [Life Orb]) HP Fire 55.06 - 65.2% Draco Meteor 54.83 - 64.74% Latias (OU Offensive [Life Orb]) HP Fire 49.07 - 58.06% Draco Meteor 48.61 - 57.6% Dragonite (OU Choice Band) Fire Punch 94 - 110.59% Outrage 74.65 - 88.01% Starmie (OU Standard [Life Orb]) Ice Beam 41.24 - 49.07% Heatran (OU SDef) Lava Plume 59.9 - 70.96% Politoed (OU Choice Specs) Focus Blast 61.75 - 72.81% Ice Beam 48.84 - 57.6% Politoed (OU Choice Scarf) Ice Beam 29.95 - 35.48% Hydro Pump (under rain) 21.19 - 24.88% There's a lot of cool stuff you can do with this spread defensively. Notably, you can survive against non-Specs Keldeo and CB Haxorus Outrage. Combine this with the possibilities of Harvest with LumRest, pinch berries, or Cutsap Berry, and there are some effective tactics you can pull off here. Going physically bulky doesn't sacrifice special bulk either. CAP 5 can still hold its own against most variants of Politoed and tank any hit from Latios. This spread allows CAP 5 to be an overall stop to many offensive threats while under the sun (the ones listed above are merely the close calls; CAP 5 can wall a plethora of other moves with this spread), which is something most sun teams would appreciate greatly in a defensive pivot. Specially Bulky Calculations 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef Careful Terrakion (OU Stealth Rock) Close Combat 135.94 - 160.36% Terrakion (OU Choice Band) Close Combat 203.22 - 239.63% Tyranitar (OU Choice Band) Superpower 153.45 - 180.64% Stone Edge 95.62 - 112.9% Infernape (OU Mixed Attacker) Close Combat 152.76 - 179.72% Keldeo (OU Choice Specs) Secret Sword 144.23 - 170.04% Keldeo (OU Choice Scarf) Secret Sword 96.77 - 113.82% Haxorus (OU Choice Band) Outrage 123.27 - 145.16% Salamence (OU MixMence) Outrage 79.95 - 94.23% Fire Blast 59.9 - 70.73% Ninetales (OU Special Attacker) Fire Blast 59.44 - 70.5% Ninetales (OU Defensive) Flamethrower 36.4 - 43.31% Landorus (OU Special Attacker) Focus Blast 56.22 - 66.58% HP Ice 25.8 - 30.64% Thundurus-T (OU Agility) Focus Blast 50.92 - 60.59% HP Ice 30.64 - 35.94% Latios (OU Choice [Choice Specs]) HP Fire 47.92 - 56.68% Draco Meteor 47.23 - 55.99% Latios (OU Choice [Choice Specs]) Draco Meteor (-2) - 23.73 - 28.34% Latios (OU Offensive [Life Orb]) HP Fire 41.24 - 49.07% Draco Meteor 41.24 - 48.84% Latias (OU Offensive [Choice Specs]) HP Fire 42.39 - 50.23% Draco Meteor 42.16 - 49.76% Dragonite (OU Choice Band) Fire Punch 143.31 - 169.12% Outrage 114.97 - 135.48% Starmie (OU Standard [Life Orb]) Ice Beam 31.1 - 37.09% Heatran (OU SDef) Lava Plume 45.62 - 53.91% Politoed (OU Choice Specs) Focus Blast 46.54 - 54.83% Ice Beam 36.4 - 43.31% Politoed (OU Choice Scarf) Ice Beam 22.58 - 26.72% Hydro Pump 5.06 - 6.22% This set sacrifices some situations against physical attackers for sheer special bulk. Going toe-to-toe with Latios is no small feat, but this set accomplishes it. Specs HP Fire in the sun is the only move that can 2HKO, which takes a lot of relief off of sun teams in particular. SubCM Latias is useless against this set, especially in tandem with Lum Berry under the sun. It even has the potential to take on Heatran in the sun, which is pretty impressive, considering CAP 5 is Grass-type. All special attackers are forced into Focus Blast if they're looking for a 2HKO, and that gives sun teams some flexibility in terms of fishing for a miss or misprediction. Berry Specific Calculations Sitrus Berry: 252 HP / 72 Def / 180+ SDef 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire 50.23 - 59.44% Pinch Berries: 4 HP / 0 SpD 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire 73.65 - 87.09% Type Resistant Berries: 252 HP / 252 Def+ @ Tanga Berry 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn 85.71 - 100.92% 252 HP / 252 SpD+ @ Tanga Berry +1 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz 69.12 - 81.56% 252 HP / 252 Def+ @ Chople Berry 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat 66.35 - 78.11% +2 252+ Atk Fighting Gem Technician Breloom Mach Punch 73.27 - 86.4% 252 HP / 0 SpD @ Occa Berry 252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast 59.67 - 70.5% 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat 78.11 - 92.16% 252 HP / 252 SpD+ @ Occa Berry +1 252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast 68.66 - 81.1% +2 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast 58.98 - 69.81% 252 HP / 252 Def+ @ Yache Berry 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash 45.16 - 53.22% 252 HP / 252 SpD+ @ Yache Berry 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-W Blizzard 54.6 - 64.28% The above spreads are more of me and ginganinja messing around with CAP 5's tanking abilities more than anything. The exception is the Sitrus set; a spread of 252 HP / 180+ SpD can be utilized to guarantee its activation after Latios uses Hidden Power Fire on the switch in. It's a legitimate spread for those considering Sitrus Berry, and allows you to allocate a bit more into defense as a mixed wall. Pinch berries are plausible if you have a very specific goal in mind for CAP 5, but typically they are inferior to other sets due to their risky nature. We partially intended it that way; we don't want CAP 5 to go for a sweep. However, the option is available if you need to get in one last Rapid Spin with Cutsap. Finally, those resist berry are silly calculations, but we thought it'd be good to include them just to show how versatile you can get with berries if you really want to suit a specific need on your sun team. With Tanga Berry, for example, CAP 5 can survive any U-turn in the game with a defensive spread. You can also use Chople to get a leg up on Terrakion, and Occa to cement a victory against Heatran. We even included a calculation for Yache Berry against Kyurem-W, and CAP 5 can still tank Choice Specs Blizzard with ease. These stats are pretty much novelty, but they affirm to us that CAP 5 is ridiculously good as is, which is why we're against making it even better with higher speed and attack stats. • • • And now, for some offensive calculations. These are all presumed on the defensive sets. I hope we have no intention of CAP 5 getting any set up moves, so I'm working without any EV investment in Attack. I didn't run any Special Attack calculations, because it is more or less useless. HP Fire under the sun can 2HKO Scizor, I think. But we're slower than any set it's going to run besides Life Orb Swords Dance, and +2 Bullet Punch isn't going to be a lot of fun for CAP 5 anyways. Offense on Bulky Sets Calculations Offensive Calculations (0 Atk) Latios (OU Choice) Crunch 68.21 - 81.45% Latias (OU Calm Mind) Crunch 51.64 - 61.53% Latias (OU Offensive) Crunch 62.25 - 74.17% Politoed (OU Defensive) Power Whip 58.33 - 69.27% Tyranitar (OU Support) Power Whip 58.41 - 69.8% Starmie (OU Defensive Rapid Spin) Power Whip 91.35 - 108.02% Tornadus (OU Hurricane) Crunch 39.13 - 46.15% Keldeo (OU Choice Scarf) Power Whip 87.65 - 103.7% Thundurus-T (OU Agility) Crunch 38.46 - 45.48% Tentacruel (OU SubToxic) Power Whip 37.08 - 43.95% Vaporeon (OU Wish Support) Power Whip 54.85 - 65.22% Jellicent (OU Utility Counter) Power Whip 60.04 - 71.46 2HKOs pretty much all bulky waters. 2HKOs both Latis. That suits our Threats Discussion pretty darn well. I don't want to raise this any higher, because it's mostly unnecessary. Again, CAP 5 can choose to invest Atk EVs to net some OHKOs, but it's generally going to want to tank the hits and retaliate back with its excellent STABs. This attack stat capitalizes on the offensive preciseness that our STABs give us in terms of what we wish to threaten. We threaten just that, and not much else. __________________ Last edited by Birkal; Mar 7th, 2013 at 11:33:54 PM.

Mar 4th, 2013, 11:39:18 PM	#10
The Reptile Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 696 Gotta Go Goat!	WIP 108 HP / 80 ATK / 55 DEF / 35 SPA / 130 SPD / 102 SPE PT: 105.2490 Above Average ST: 235.4968 Amazing PS: 127.6642 Good SS: 69.4218 Poor BSR: 290.2597 Good BST: 505 Justifications (Also WIP) HP / Def / SpD Let's start with the more important stats on the list imo, the bulk. With 108 / 55 / 130 bulk, he has enough PT to take on resisted hits, however, strong neutral STAB moves will kill it (TTar and DNite being the main examples of strong netural STAB that's physical). I made the Special Defense high for one main reason: To allow CaP 5 to have the option of investing in attack (which is also the reason for the attack, but I'll get into that later). A Max HP / Max SpD beats Specs Latios: Code: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 205-243 (48.8 - 57.85%) -- 53.52% chance to 2HKO -2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 103-123 (24.52 - 29.28%) -- possible 5HKO 4 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 200-236 (66.22 - 78.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO As you can see, with Max / Max +, CaP 5 beats Specs Latios. Meanwhile... Code: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 202-238 (48.09 - 56.66%) -- 34.38% chance to 2HKO 4 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 318-374 (82.81 - 97.39%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock ...it also beats SpecsToed. However, it cannot beat Tyrantiar unless it runs Max Attack, and it needs decent rolls to do so (or prior damage, I guess): Code: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 444-523 (105.71 - 124.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO 4 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 230-272 (59.58 - 70.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Lugia Power Whip vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 320-378 (82.9 - 97.92%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock __________________ Going around at the speed of Goat. Got places to roam Gotta follow my Gogoat PS! Username: DreMZ Last edited by The Reptile; Mar 6th, 2013 at 1:15:13 AM.

Mar 4th, 2013, 11:39:34 PM	#11
DetroitLolcat It's Great! To Be! A Michigan Wolverine! Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,842	Okay, I guess I should give a few pointers to all you stat spread submitters so we can get some direction going with this thread. Obviously, there are five stat limits to adhere to in order to be slated, but just having a legal entry is not sufficient to ensure being slated. What I'm looking for in a slate-worthy spread is valid competitive reasoning. Just give enough reasons why your spread is going to fulfill the concept, and there's a good chance it will live to see another thread. Specific calculations, both offensive and defensive, for the Pokemon that we want to threaten or be threatened by can only help one's case, especially when the numbers are unorthodox. Although I've never seen unorthodox stats as too much of an optics issue, if your stats don't end in 0 or 5 it's usually a good idea to explain why. I'm obviously not mandating rounded stats nor is that going to be a major criterion for selection, but it's just good form to justify any unusual looking stats. On BSR abuse, please stay away from it. It's entirely proper to ride a limit or two, as that's the purpose of the limits. It's perfectly reasonable to select a BSR just under 320 or just over 250, but it's not acceptable to submit egregious HP values such as 150 or 160 (or 151!!!!!!!!!!) and drop Defense below 40 just to make the BST prettier while maximizing Stat Limits. If you're just abusing the limits and find that just about every one of the five limited stats is teetering on the limit, then you need to rethink your spread. Remember, we're building a Pokemon, not a hyper-competitive war machine perfectly optimized to destroy its competition. Also, remember if that the words Final Submission do not appear in your post, it's not going to end up on the slate. This is to identify between WIP (While In Progress) spreads that are still searching for improvements and commentary versus slate-ready spreads looking for evaluation. Most importantly, comment on each other's spreads! Every constructive comment makes this discussion that much better, and in the end it's more about how well our deliberation goes than who wins the poll. Don't withhold your comment because you fear it might harm your submission, and don't be afraid to compliment each others' spreads. Though we all have the individual goal of winning the final poll, our goal as a community is to build the best Pokemon we can build. Also, please hop on IRC for constructive criticism. Polls are often won or lost by who receives the most input from their peers on IRC, so don't be afraid to ask a veteran or two about your stat spread. You can always find knowledgeable people on #cap, so if you want a leg up in the Stat Submissions/Polls that's the place to be. I'll be posting evaluations and commentary of each Final Submission on a daily basis, so look out for that. Not every post in this thread needs to be a submission, and over time this thread should hopefully shift from everyone posting their spreads to everyone commenting on each other's. I'll also point out if a spread fails to meet the limit so the poster can correct that. Here's to a great discussion! __________________ Favorite Pokemon-Swampert- formerly OU and staying that way. Cats are awesome, the best kind of cat is the Detroit Lion! Lolcat Nuzlocke Story http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou11556879

Mar 4th, 2013, 11:55:15 PM	#12
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,758 Greece	Just a little heads-up to everyone that has an Attack stat close to 103, just make it 103 if possible, as with 103 Attack the CAP always 2HKOes max HP Latias after lefties and without SR with Crunch (53.29 - 63.18%). __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check! Last edited by alexwolf; Mar 5th, 2013 at 12:24:48 AM.

Mar 5th, 2013, 3:15:28 AM	#13
erisia (macho) brace yourselves Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 860	Final Submission: 75 HP / 110 Atk / 63 Def / 30 SpA / 170 SpD / 70 Spe (518 BST) PT: 92.4721 ST: 243.657 PS: 135.855 SS: 54.4513 BSR: 282.334 We're going into uncharted territory with that Special Defense stat... only Regice and Shuckle in all of history can best it! Reasoning for each of these stats will be posted below. Here's some current sets I'm considering! I'll be using them in the calcs below. item: Sitrus Berry nature: Adamant evs: 252 HP / 252 Attack / 4 Spe item: Lum Berry nature: Careful evs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe item: Lum Berry nature: Impish evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe What's up with those defensive stats... One way in which this submission differs from a lot of the others is a fairly low HP stat and an absurdly awesome Special Defense stat. First of all, I'd like to debunk some reasons as to why high HP would be better, since that issue almost killed the poll for Aurumoth. CAP5 is not going to have the moveslots to use Wish with Protect and continue to perform its role effectively, and Lum-Rest in Sunlight completely overshadows Wish on its own. CAP5 is already going to have a bloated moveset, and Wish would just make this worse while distracting from the concept, in my opinion. Meanwhile, Final Gambit is absolutely contrary to the concept, stopping CAP5 from working as a pivot and letting it get past some of its counters if we give it good HP and Speed. On the other hand, a low HP stat alongside a shallow Defense stat ensures that people can't just go for 252 Defense EVs and start walling stuff they shouldn't, which is a potential issue with spreads like 115 / 60 / 130. With these given defenses, although CAP5 can go 252 HP / 252 Def Impish if it chooses, to take certain neutral physical attacks better, it still doesn't wall stuff like Dragonite Outrages, which ensures that CAP5's most common sets will focus on its special bulk, and the fulfillment of the concept in general. Furthermore, should we decide to use Leech Seed to be really annoying, CAP5 will gain more HP compared to other spreads, although again, I don't think CAP5 would really have a slot to use this over a STAB attack, Rapid Spin, or Lum-Rest. By far the most important reason for a low HP stat is for the interaction with defenses after investment; a lower HP stat gives us more control over how physically defensive this thing can become. So, with Base 75 HP, I've decided to go for Base 63 Defense. I think this is exactly where we want to be; between getting owned by powerful resisted hits that we should be able to take, and taking powerful neutral hits that we shouldn't be able to. As CAP5 has little reason to invest in Speed, I've made the PT lower than other submissions under the premise that it will almost always been investing fully in HP. Here's some calcs against a few OU threats that I think support this stat value pretty well. 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 90.67 - 106.77% 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 83.05 - 97.74% 252+ Atk Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 96.89 - 114.4% 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 88.98 - 105.08% So with the highest common investment, CAP5 will be slaughtered by the Outrages that it shouldn't be able to tank, so long as hazards on the field. Even if it invests fully in physical bulk, the most powerful outrages such as CB Dragonite's will still OHKO after SR, thankfully. If we can't ensure that Outrages OHKO, then CAP5 has the potential to stall them out with Lum-Rest until Confusion, which is something we don't want to do given the threat discussion. 0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 88.13 - 103.95% 0 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 82.48 - 98.3% Likewise, Skarmory can OHKO this thing with little trouble after SR or Spikes, reinforcing its role as a counter and preventing it from getting stalled by Lum-Rest, or from CAP5 coming in to spin away its hazards at the last moment. Meanwhile, Jirachi can just U-Turn out of CAP5; while this makes it a better counter to CAP5, this also makes it less of a pain for Sun teams to deal with, as Jirachi will be less inclined to just mindlessly spam Body Slam than before. 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 116.94 - 137.85% 252+ Atk Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 96.61 - 114.12% 0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 96.32 - 113.84% 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 117.51 - 139.54% 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Low Sweep vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 103.67 - 122.03% Meanwhile, the Fighters also get to OHKO CAP5 with their most reliable STAB. Close Combats obviously do more, and Hydreigon can OHKO with hazards easily with Superpower, making it a better response. More physically bulky spreads can take the low-power Fighting STABs and Hydreigon's Superpower much more effectively, especially if people are tempted to run 252 / 252 Impish spreads, reducing the effectiveness of the lower-tier Fighting types that we want to encourage. However, should people do this, it is important to note that Infernape's Close Combat and Breloom's Low Sweep still OHKO with ease, ensuring that while Impish CAP5 can be used to take neutral physical attacks with less embarassment, it will still leave CAP5 open to powerful Fighting types. 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 75.14 - 88.7% 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 74.01 - 87.57% 252 Atk Tyranitar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 72.31 - 85.31% However, with fully invested physical bulk, CAP5 can actually take on Scarf Keldeo and win in a lead matchup most of the time, which helps it out against Rain teams in general, taking on another popular Water type more easily. It can also take on Tyranitar with a lot less problems than before, which is certainly helpful against Sand teams. Of course, without fully investment in physical bulk, CAP5 is still easily OHKO'd by all of these attacks due to the low Base Defense. 252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 51.97 - 61.29% 252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 50.28 - 59.32% However, as seen here, CAP5 still has the bulk necessary to take powerful resisted physical attacks without too many problems, especially with a Sitrus Berry. The crucial reason for low physical bulk is to prevent CAP5 from being able to tank strong physical natural attacks, as this could make it much harder to manage due to the potent recovery options of Lum-Rest or Sitrus. However, it still has the capability to take strong not-very-effective hits, meaning it can still pivot into certain physical attackers and provide that service for Sun teams, which really want something that can pivot into Ground attacks. I believe that 75 / 63 physical bulk strikes the perfect balance between the two. Now, for the elephant in the room. 170 SpD?!?! What is this foolishness? Well, my preferred value for the upper ST limit was cut off, so 170 SpD just about reaches the maximum and lets CAP5 take on Latios and Politoed as well as possible. Since we're not aiming to outspeed Latios, I think tanking its attacks is the best option for dealing with it. This ST is also high enough to provide CAP5 with enough bulk to take a lot of hits with only HP investment, meaning that people are free to invest in Attack and run the offensive trapper set detailed above if they choose, without losing too much walling capability. Calc time! 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 74.22 - 87.62% 252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 49.48 - 58.76% 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 72.85 - 85.91% 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 57.73 - 68.04% CAP5 will most often be running either 252 HP / 252 Atk Adamant or 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful or something in between, as it has little reason to invest in its Speed, Defense, or Special Attack stats, so the 0/0 calcs aren't too important. However, these demonstrate that CAP5 has the capability to take on Latios and Politoed uninvested if necessary. 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 61.01 - 72.03% 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in sun: 53.67 - 63.84% 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 47.74 - 56.21% +2 4 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom) in sun: 45.76 - 54.23% For the offensive trapper set, CAP5 only gets 3HKO'd by anything other than Specs HP Fire in Sun (although taking LO HP Fire can be risky if SR is present), thanks to the healing that the Sitrus berry provides, meaning that CAP5 can stay in and trap Latios at its leisure. On the other hand, the specially defensive set can also avoid the 2HKO from Specs Meteor after SR without any healing, letting it heal up with Lum-Rest easily. Latias obviously deals much less damage, with even +2 HP Fire in Sun failing to 2HKO the specially defensive set half the time. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 59.88 - 70.62% 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 47.45 - 55.93% 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 46.32 - 54.8% 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 36.72 - 43.5% While Specs Toed can break through the offensive trapper set with Focus Blast, its inaccuracy can make this a somewhat risky maneuver, while Ice Beam fails outright to 2HKO it through the Sitrus recovery. The specially defensive set can also switch into anything other than Focus Blast easily, which can secure a 2HKO after SR if it hits both times, while not being phased by defensive Politoed sets at all. While the offensive set with Sitrus risks taking a Toxic, this would be an unwise move for Politoed if the weather war hasn't yet been one. 252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in sun: 115.25 - 135.59% 252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom) in sun: 90.39 - 106.77% 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in sun: 75.14 - 88.7% 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom) in sun: 59.88 - 71.18% 0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in sun: 57.62 - 68.36% However, Heatran and other Fire types we want to encourage still have the capability of taking CAP5 down, reinforcing our threat list. Overall, I believe that these are the best defensive stats for CAP5 to use, due to their interaction with investment. Without any investment in defenses, CAP5 can still take the hits it needs to, meaning it can go the whole hog and invest in Speed to make sure that 252 Spe Specs Toed doesn't get the jump on us, if it wants to. Meanwhile, with investment, it becomes much more capable of walling its prey without becoming too dominant. What about that Speed... This has been quite a contested issue, but after much discussion, I think that Base 70 Speed is pretty much the perfect level for CAP5 to sit at. At first, I intended for CAP5 to naturally outspeed Politoed, letting it seize momentum or heal against it much more effectively. Speed creep is a huge concern however, as Specs Politoed would happily adapt to use the necessary Speed investment to beat CAP5 naturally, provided the gap wasn't too huge. I think Heatran should definitely outspeed CAP5 to make it a more dominant counter and offensive threat and preventing CAP5 from firing off a suicide Rapid Spin, Taunt, or similar supporting move. Furthermore, if we attempt to outspeed Heatran, then we run the risk of outrunning other threats on our list such as Infernape, Toxicroak, and Volcarona that must be able to outspeed CAP5 to switch safely into Power Whip or similar. However, if CAP5 aims to underspeed Heatran, then this makes it easy for Politoed to invest Speed EVs to retain the speed advantage. I then realized that speed-tying with Politoed prevents either side from Speed-creeping the other, and makes it far too risky for Politoed to consider staying in to Encore-lock CAP5 into Rapid Spin or Pursuit, or firing off an Ice Beam or Focus Blast to finish it off when weakened. Obviously, this means that CAP5 also inherently outspeeds Tyranitar and Hippowdon, giving Sun a bit more of a leg up against Sand considering that it can maim either with a Power Whip or similar Grass-STAB. Scizor can still speed-creep us, but that's not a huge issue as Scizor smashes CAP5 regardless of whether it outspeeds us. So overall, Base 70 Speed prevents Politoed from trying to speed-creep CAP5 or vice versa, while still outspeeding a lot of defensive Pokemon that CAP5 can then use support moves against more effectively. It also keeps CAP5 from accidentally outspeeding our checks and counters, making them much more effective. And what about those offenses? First of all, I've decided to go with a relatively high Base Attack stat of 110. This allows CAP5 to take on its key threats, Politoed, Latios, and Latias, to a good degree of success without any investment, while being more consistent as a check with investment. Furthermore, the stat is designed so that CAP5 can achieve the necessary KOs without the use of a Life Orb, encouraging the use of berries in its place to promote Harvest, and making CAP5 less likely to just power through its checks like Infernape. Calc time! 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 92.7 - 109.37% (OHKO after SR) 0 Atk (custom) Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 47.39 - 56.25% (2HKO after SR) 0 Atk (custom) Payback (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 93.37 - 109.93% (OHKO after SR) 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 74.17 - 88.07% (2HKO) 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 56.04 - 66.48% (2HKO) So with absolutely no Attack investment, CAP5 can always manage to 2HKO Politoed with just Leaf Blade, while an uninvested Power Whip has a good chance to OHKO offensive Toed. Meanwhile, CAP5 can also manage to secure the 2HKO on CM Latias with its less powerful STAB, preventing it from just Recover stalling us into submission. While CAP5 can't quite secure the OHKO on Latios with Crunch after SR, it can easily do so with Payback. However, if we invest fully in CAP5's Attack stat (an easy feat given how effective 252 / 0 and 252 / 0+ are at tanking hits) ... 252 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 114.58 - 135.93% (OHKO) 252+ Atk (custom) Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 95.31 - 112.5% (OHKO after SR) 252+ Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 86.45 - 102.08% (OHKO after SR) 252+ Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 87.62 - 102.97% (OHKO after SR) 252+ Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 101.98 - 121.19% (OHKO) 252 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 93.37 - 109.93% (OHKO after SR) 252+ Atk (custom) Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 51.65 - 61.58% (2HKO) 252 Atk (custom) Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 46.35 - 55.62% (2HKO after SR) With the extra investment, CAP5 can now OHKO all Politoed with Power Whip after SR, making it much harder for Politoed to respond to CAP5 at all. Meanwhile, Crunch gains the ability to OHKO Latios with or without SR depending on the nature, and Pursuit gains the resulting 2HKO, making CAP5 that much more of a foolproof response to Latios. Funnily enough, my spread also happens to be one of the few capable of OHKOing Tyranitar with Power Whip after SR, which could pose problems to CAP5 otherwise. As none of these calcs involve a Life Orb, CAP5 is free to use whatever berry it wants. 252+ Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 43.34 - 51.19% (2HKO after SR) 252+ Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 43.83 - 51.94% (2HKO after SR) 252+ Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 43.89 - 51.9% (2HKO after SR) While CAP5 has the unfortunate tendency to 2HKO these checks with Power Whip, this can only be achieved with SR, and considering all of these things either outspeed or OHKO CAP5 with Mach Punch, this isn't really a feasible scenario most of the time. So overall, CAP5 has the capability to threaten Politoed and Lati@s at different levels of effectiveness depending on its investment, and never requires a Life Orb to perform its role effectively. Adamant attacking sets are more effective at eliminating their prey quickly, while Careful defensive sets can take hits better while stuff providing enough offensive presence to remain a threat. The Special Attack stat is more or less discarded entirely, and fails to 2HKO Scizor with uninvested Adamant HP Fire in Sunlight, even after SR. Special Attack is absolutely unnecessary in fulfilling CAP5's goals, and a higher stat could allow CAP5 to threaten counters and checks with super-effective Hidden Powers, which we've established is detrimental to the concept. There isn't really much need to justify this stat, although it can be raised for optics reasons if required. Okay, that should be just about everything. Let me know what you guys think! __________________ Check out Slowmons: A new metagame where the slowest Pokémon moves first! Last edited by erisia; Mar 8th, 2013 at 8:03:35 PM.

Mar 5th, 2013, 5:50:09 AM	#14
ginganinja Delena 4ever Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 3,147 In Love	Capefeather I just have a small question regarding your speed on CAP 5. I understand that outrunning Specs Toed is very important for you, however I am not sure if CAP 5 would be able too, without losing a massive amount of its bulk which would impact on its ability to then check Specs Toed. The problem I can forsee is Specs Toed simply running max speed Modest therefore outspeeding and 2KOing CAP 5, which is sorta rendering your speed stat moot. If 75 speed isn't letting you outspeed Specs Toed (which from what I read seemed to be the point of that speed number) then why use that speed in the first place. Do you have plans to address max speed Specs Toed via your EV spread (this goes for everyone else including Deck Knight who picked 75 speed or more to "outrun" Specs Toed), or were you unaware that Specs Toed can and does run that much speed. (I personally run HP but whenever I run into 252 Speed Specs Toed on the ladder it screws me over). __________________

Mar 5th, 2013, 8:52:34 AM	#15
Qwilphish Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 156 -1 Attack	Final Submission: 90 HP / 95 Atk / 70 Def / 40 SpA / 140 SpD / 75 Spe 510 BST PT:115.6976 Above Average ST:224.4887 Fantastic (trololol) PS:111.7203 Above Average SS:62.91288 Poor BSR:274.7695 Good Now that the stats are out on the floor, time for some reasonings. First up is SPEED. Since it seems that speed is going to be the biggest controversy when it comes to the stats this time around let's get it out of the way first. 75 speed lies right between that sweet spot of Politoed's 70 speed and Heatran's base 77 speed. I can already here people screaming as to why I would want to outspeed Politoed but not Heatran. First off, with Politoed we are supposed to, more or less, attack/kill/murder/massacre it. Since Politoed isn't the most speedy pokemon around, I don't see any problems with outspeeding it. I've heard some opposition on IRC about toed trying to speed creep us because we only have 5 base stats up on him, meaning that Specs 'Toed will need to invest 44 Speed Ev's to try to outspeed us. The problem with this is that the 'Toed user is now at a significant disadvantage compared to us as we can invest 4 Ev's to speed creep him, and so on and so forth. Underspeeding Heatran however, is another story. Heatran, due to our typing alone, make it one of the most reliable checks to our CAP. Some people have mentioned on IRC about giving 'Toed Low Kick as a coverage move because of it's variable power and semi-lack of consistency (as shown in Deck's Stat Spread). If this goes in place, I would like to make sure that one of our greatest checks is not going to lose one-on-one with us sometimes. We Outspeed: Politoed; Tyranitar; Hippowdown; Abomasnow; Scizor; Breloom; Forry/Ferro/Jelli/Blobs; Skarmory; Gastrodon Who Outspeeds Us: Ninetales; Lati@s; Rotom-W; Dragonite; Pixies; Salamence; Mamoswine; Toxicroak; Lucario; Landorus(-T); Infernape; Venusaur- Outside of Sun; Toxicroak One point that I really want to make across is this speed's ability to tackle on every weather starter besides Sun (which is good), without outspeeding any major threat that we wouldn't have with 70 Speed besides breloom and other randoms. By being able to help aid the weather war (but not single handily stop it as shown with Physically bulky stats)we help sun, and thus fulfill our concept. We also get outsped by Rotom-W with no investment. While we risk the burn if we go above 86 just to try to speed creep Rotom-W we now outspeed a myriad of other randoms that turn us from being a shaky counter to a full blown counter. Such pokemon include, Venusaur, Toxicroak, Dragonite, Mamoswine, Rotom-W, and Gyarados. Not to mention, if we were to go 5 base stats above Rotom-W to try and dissuade it from speed creeping us (as I did with Politoed) then now we outspeed base 90's naturally which just adds onto the pokemon we can outspeed, and increase our sweeping potential. A strange, but valid, point to make also with 75 speed is that while the speed isn't "fast", it isn't deathly slow like conk and reuniclus. This "speediness" will deter people from using CAP on a TR team in conjunction with our attack stat, or even worse shudders a sun TR team. Speaking of attack...... Second Verse same as the first, this time with ATTACK AND SP.ATTACK With Attack, I didn't want for CAP 5 to fall under the category of a generic sun sweeper, (especially with Harvest as our primary ability) so I gave it an attack stat that isn't great but is usable to kill the targets intended. Combined with the speed given it will be very difficult to try to push harvest to its limits and boost both its attack and speed to try and prepare for a sweep. I chose the specific 95 Attack because it was the minimum to 2HKO 252/0 Lati@s with no investment after stealth rock. Other fun tidbits of calcs is that it will OHKO Politoed with Power Whip after rocks most of the time. Let's stop talking and get onto the Calcs because that is why you're even here. Calc'd using 0 Atk investment Attacking Calcs* 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 216-254 (56.25 - 66.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 314-372 (81.77 - 96.87%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock-- we outspeed this type of 'Toed 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 314-372 (84.18 - 99.73%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock--- type of 'Toed that outspeeds us 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 182-216 (50 - 59.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 182-216 (60.26 - 71.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Latios: Same Calcs regarding attack 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 198-234 (51.29 - 60.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 138-164 (32.85 - 39.04%) -- 80.64% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 186-222 (44.92 - 53.62%) -- 87.11% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 102-120 (31.77 - 37.38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 234-276 (81.53 - 96.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 170-204 (55.92 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 118-141 (32.41 - 38.73%) -- 6.25% chance to 3HKO 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Jellicent: 234-276 (58.06 - 68.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 252-296 (77.77 - 91.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (For that rare 252 HP Gar) 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 158-188 (44.5 - 52.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 158-188 (39.1 - 46.53%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 187-222 (69 - 81.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 109-130 (36.45 - 43.47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 40 Sp.Attack is mostly filler, but luckily, it has ONE use! 252 SpA (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor in sun: 276-328 (80.23 - 95.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO !!!! So don't go getting any crazy ideas now! (although you can go modest and life orb.... please don't, at that point it's not even worth it) Finally, we are down to the final three stats. HP AND DEFENSE AND SP.DEFENSE And so, we are left off at HP and the defenses. 90/140 Sp.Defense puts us auspiciously close to the [B~AMAZING~[/B] range. So we want to theaten Latias? Specs HP Fire in the sun isn't even a guaranteed 2HKO, however Latios's Specs HP Fire IS a guaranteed 2HKO in the sun, so unfortunately we are a shaky check to those with HP Fire. If Latios only has Draco Meteor, we basically hard counter it. Against Politoed, Specs Focus Blast unfortunately 2HKO's us just barely, however Poli needs to hit two Focus Blasts in a row to try and kill us, which as shown with the given calc above, is VERY difficult for it to do. Other Focus Blast, 'Toed can barely touch us, even with Ice Beam. And off to the calcs once again! Specially Bulky- Calc'd with 252 HP/252 Sp.Def+ 4 SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. (custom) in sun: 102-122 (28.89 - 34.56%) -- 4.83% chance to 3HKO 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. (custom) in sun: 166-198 (47.02 - 56.09%) -- 77.73% chance to 2HKO 252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. (custom): 165-195 (46.74 - 55.24%) -- 71.09% chance to 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. (custom) in sun: 214-252 (60.62 - 71.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO--- clean 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. (custom): 211-250 (59.77 - 70.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. (custom): 106-126 (30.02 - 35.69%) -- 32.57% chance to 3HKO--- chance to 2HKO 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. (custom): 185-218 (52.4 - 61.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO-- no chance to 2HKO 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. (custom): 208-246 (58.92 - 69.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO-- To 2HKO, 'Toed needs to survive AND hit two Focus Blasts, which is a 51% chance of happening. 252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. (custom): 266-314 (75.35 - 88.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. (custom): 134-162 (37.96 - 45.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. (custom): 162-192 (45.89 - 54.39%) -- 53.13% chance to 2HKO 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. (custom): 211-250 (59.77 - 70.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO--- to 2HKO us, Gengar has to not only hit two Focus Blasts in a row, but manage to not get KOed by CAP 5 first. 144+ SpA Rotom-W Hidden Power Ice vs. (custom): 82-98 (23.22 - 27.76%) -- possible 4HKO--- lol 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. (custom): 250-296 (70.82 - 83.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. (custom): 218-257 (61.75 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO--- exactly what we want 0 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. (custom): 312-372 (88.38 - 105.38%) -- 25% chance to OHKO--- this too 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. (custom): 450-530 (127.47 - 150.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO-- wrecks us, but we wreck it With Defense, it comes with a few niche surviving/ OHKO's. Most of the examples are just bare minimum neutral hits, and thus CAN be taken, but are not advised to take. HP also comes into account, as I did not feel as if it were to be fair to give CAP 5 a high HP and a low defense, so I took the middle ground and went for average HP and below average defense. As bug types are the most obvious counters to us, I wanted to make it so that nearly every bug move will either OHKO or leave us with low HP afterwards. As I mentioned previously, outspeeding the weather inducers not ending with tales helps us AID the weather war. This defense spread shows how we can't straight out defeat every weather inducer as we get heavily dented by both Tyranitar and Hippowdon, doing over 50% with any super effective hit. Note with the Dragons- This shows how we would rather stay out of Dragon's way not ending in "as" as most moves OHKO us with max HP investment. Physically Bulky- Calc'd with 252 HP/0 Defense Terrakion literally kills us with whatever move with whatever set... (unless it's earthquake) 0- Atk Celebi U-turn vs. (custom): 244-288 (63.54 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. (custom): 272-320 (70.83 - 83.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. (custom): 138-164 (35.93 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Life Orb Hippowdon Ice Fang vs. (custom): 247-291 (64.32 - 75.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Superpower vs. (custom): 588-694 (153.12 - 180.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. (custom): 262-310 (74.22 - 87.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. : 700-824 (198.3 - 233.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. (custom): 585-689 (152.34 - 179.42%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. (custom): 429-505 (121.52 - 143.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO +1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 405-477 (105.46 - 124.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Stone Edge vs. (custom): 225-265 (63.73 - 75.07%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs. custom): 168-199 (47.59 - 56.37%) -- 82.42% chance to 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. (custom): 1310-1544 (371.1 - 437.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. (custom): 960-1130 (271.95 - 320.11%) -- guaranteed OHKO With that, this concludes this tour of CAP 5's possible spread, and what I believe is to be the most effective and efficient spread out there. Thank you for reading this monstrosity of a spread and I'll see you guys next time. Main Points - TL;DR 1. 75 Speed allows us to outspeed Politoed, and thus the other weather starters besides Ninetales. This speed falls short of Heatran and Rotom-W which can either be a huge check/counter or a simple problem that can be remedied respectively. 2. Attack allows to 2HKO 252/0 Lati@s after stealth rock and leftovers. It also almost always OHKO's 44 Speedcreep Politoed's after stealth rock. 3. Sp.Def allows us to miss out on a 2HKO from Specs Draco Meteor's from Latios but not HP Fire's 4. Defense allows us to die to what we need to, and survive what it /should/ survive. Last edited by Qwilphish; Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:22:53 PM.

Mar 5th, 2013, 9:44:22 AM	#17
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,758 Greece	I am not going to comment on any slow stat spread that has below 71 Speed, as 71 Speed is the minimum needed to outspeed most defensive Pokemon. And if we can't even outspeed defensive Pokemon, this limtis greatly the chances that we will have to attack or heal. So on to the spreads with 75 Speed or more: - Deck Knight: Good spread overall, and with this Speed stat you can make sure that Specs Politoed won't have an easy time speed creeping the CAP. However, i don't see why your spread favors Sitrus Berry and Enigma Berry over LumRest. With a simple 252/252+ spread, the CAP is never 2HKOed by Specs Latios's DM after SR, almost never 2HKOed by Specs Politoed's Ice Beam after SR (5.86% chance), and can simply stall out Focus Blast with Rest as the CAP is faster and Rest has more pps while Focus Blast has attrocious accuracy. And because LumRest is such a reliable healing and status immunity tool, i don't see the CAP easily giving it up, just to avoid a 2HKO from LO/Specs Latios's HP Fire under sun, which Heatran can easily take anyway. - capefeather: I definitely like the concept, so props for that. Although i believe that the ST is a bit low, you explained well why this happens (to not allow the CAP to counter everything it wants to with only one set), meaning that you have a solid reasoning. My main problem with your spread is the Speed. If you aim to outspeed Specs Politoed 75 Speed is just not enough, as Politoed can easily Speed creep or even max out the Speed. So why don't you stretch your Speed a bit until your reach the limit of PS? Finally, as i said 103 Attack allows the CAP to 2HKO 252 Latias after lefties, so there is that too. - DarkSlay: OK spread overall, can't go in details without the explanation though. - The Reptile: Your first damage calcs look fine, but the second not. Specs Focus Blast always 2HKOes after SR and 88.28% of the time without SR. This would be fine if the CAP could outspeed Politoed, but as i mentioned again, 75 Speed is just not enough to take care of Politoed, which can easily use more Speed. What's more, Ice Beam from SpecsToed has a 5.86% chance to 2HKO the CAP after SR, so i definitely suggest to use a bit more Special Defense to avoid this. To sum it up, i would suggest raising a bit the ST in order to always avoid the 2HKO from Specs Politoed's Ice Beam after SR, and increasing the Speed to avoid getting outsped by speed creeping Politoed. - Oglemi: The PT is wayyy too big imo. I would suggest removing some Defense and putting it to Speed to have more insurance against Politoed. Also as i said to others, you could consider using 103 Attack instead of 100 to always 2HKO 252 HP Latias with Crunch. Will comment more after i see your reasoning. - erisia: Will wait for a complete reasoning, however the ST seems too much, and the Speed could use a little boost as Politoed can easily Speed creep (if this matters for your spread, if not then fine). __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check! Last edited by alexwolf; Mar 5th, 2013 at 10:05:51 AM.

Mar 5th, 2013, 10:39:37 AM	#18
Imanalt RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,407 VT, USA	Final Submission 81/107/76/42/143/76 PT: 116.9 ST: 215.2 PS: 143.2 SS: 69.7 BSR: 294.4 Justifications: Lets start out simple with the defenses. 81/76/143 stats. I wanted to keep my hp low to increase the gain from maximizing hp and not investing in defenses, because i feel that a 252 hp/252+ atk spread allows us to simultaneously be able to tank the hits from rain pokemon and lati@s, while still being able to apply enough offensive pressure to allow sun teams to grab an advantage. Basically I went with enough bulk to always be able to survive dragon pulse from any boost level of latias, meaning it should ALWAYS be able to check it. Code: +6 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 309-364 (84.42 - 99.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO It also can easily survive one specs latios draco meteor, and can survive 2 scarfed dmeteors, allowing for it to be able to always beat scarf and put specs into a situation where it dies to either sucker punch if it stays in, or pursuit if it switches. Code: 252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 169-199 (46.17 - 54.37%) -2 252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 84-100 (22.95 - 27.32%) 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 252-297 (68.85 - 81.14%) Obviously, Specs latios is a problem, but being able to avoid the 2hko from draco meteor is just not realistic, and we still are in a position where we have a good chance to threaten it, even if you lose a lot of hp in the process. I also kept the special bulk down at a low enough level that an offensive heatran in neutral weather can almost always ohko with fire blast. Code: 252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cap 5: 318-374 (86.88 - 102.18%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock The Defense stat was chosen to guarantee that Jolly Life Orb breloom will always oho with mach punch after stealth rocks. Code: 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cap 5: 322-382 (87.97 - 104.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock A low hp stat also has the added bonus of encouraging 252/0 hp spreads, as it means you get a higher percentage boost from the investment. Now onto the Attacking stats. Again for attack I worked primarily off of lati@s. 107 attack is essentially the minimum to ohko latios with no hazard damages. This also has the nice effect of always ohko'ing a switching cmlatias with two stealthrock damages with pursuit: Code: 252+ Atk Cap 5 Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 302-356 (100 - 117.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Cap 5 Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 276-326 (75.82 - 89.56%) The attack is also enough to nearly always ohko Defensive politoed with power whip, and always ohko specs politoed with leaf blade should it have that: Code: 252+ Atk Cap 5 Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 356-422 (92.7 - 109.89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Cap 5 Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 326-386 (84.89 - 100.52%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock The Special attack is mainly filler, keeping it low enough that Scizor won't be ohko'd by hidden power fire, and it also allows me to get a nice round number for my bst (525), which is always nice for optics. The speed is 76 to make it as hard as possible for specs politoed to speedcreep you, while still keeping cap 5 slower than hearten. __________________ ASB profile zfs: we are the knights who say nidoking http://pastebin.com/FrNB3Vg3 21:15 Cathy GreatSage is a known spammer Last edited by Imanalt; Mar 7th, 2013 at 5:28:24 PM.

Mar 5th, 2013, 11:49:26 AM	#19
capefeather Here's my mega plan: YOU DIE Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,636 I'm a super fighting robot from the year 2010	So about max Speed Choice Specs Politoed... The way I see it, CAP 5 will always be in some amount of trouble against such powerful super-effective attacks without a Sitrus Berry, especially considering Focus Blast 2HKOes even stuff like reachzero's spread. So while I think that outrunning Politoed could be worthwhile so that the speed creeping pressure is more on it than on CAP 5, there's little point in trying to go all the way with the special bulk as well. I get the low speed + high special bulk angle, too, and I don't think that 70+ speed + high special bulk is really worth it, so I guess 70+ speed + lower special bulk is just what I have chosen. While I have those calcs against Life Orb Latios, obviously that's not an entirely consistent scenario, and it wasn't meant to be. I've put Life Orb Latios and Choice Specs Politoed in the same boat, really, in that you could perhaps beat them without Sitrus, but it would probably help greatly. Plus, that first Sitrus Berry is free regardless of the weather, and a Speed creeping Politoed has a greater chance of being wrecked by Power Whip. tbh I still am still thinking about the Speed stat and possibly the Attack stat, which is why I haven't marked the submission as final, but atm 75 seems like the Speed level with the fewest potential side effects. __________________ If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will always be empty. <+joshe> im a registered sex offender for up to calc 3 <%V4> Naruto is climaxing! <+Reflect_Suicune> i was thining of fucking jellicent for some reason

Mar 5th, 2013, 12:33:57 PM	#20
jas61292 likes his numbers Moderator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,297 Strong as a Corsola	So, I want to comment on something that is strangely common considering how the stat limit discussion went. When trying to decide on what our Physical Sweepieness should be, there were two main camps: those who wanted fast speed, and those who wanted slow speed. Yet, now that we are on to submissions, a very large number of people are just going with medium speeds, and based on the explanations I have seen, both here and in the last thread, this makes absolutely no sense to me. The main goal of the fast speed side was to outspeed Latios and Latias so that you don't need the ridiculous Special bulk to beat them. On the other side, the slow speed side was all about how we are going to beat what we want to beat defensively, and so outspeeding those Pokemon is of little to no advantage, whereas outspeeding things we want to be countered by (Scizor, Heatran, etc) has definite negatives. So, I have to say I am flabbergasted by the number of people that ar putting speed above that of Politoed and Heatran and the like, but below Latios and Latias. What exactly are we expected to gain from this? Now, looking at capefeather's, for example, he stated that with his spread we would be a shaky check to the most powerful of Latios, and that beating Politoed is more important, so outspeeding it is necessary. However, this is predicated on having comparatively low special bulk. Even then, the chosen speed stat is to force one specific Politoed set, which only accounts for around 25% of Politoed, to invest slightly in speed, which, as ginganinja brought up, is not exactly that bad. Politoed will not hesitate to do it if it needs to, and it will not be that disadvantaged. Max Spe Specs Toed was the only Politoed set I ran for the longest time, and I can assure you, it is not somehow a hindrance to have to run it. In general, what I am trying to say is that outspeeding Politoed is really not unnecessary, and the idea of forcing it to invest is supurfluous at best. Even with that said, this shaky reasoning is only even the smallest bit sensible on capefeather's spread, where special bulk is notably lower than the other submissions. In other cases where the spreads are made to straight up wall Latios, this becomes completely ridiculous. The notion that we can wall arguably the greatest Special Attacker in the entire tier, but need speed help to beat a fairly mediocre Special Attacker is utterly absurd. It is a case of outspeeding it solely for the sake of outspeeding it, and when we have counters who are slower that we want to lose to, this is not the kind of attitude we should have. Now, I don't want this to be taken as an attempt to try and force people into slow spreads. All I am trying to say here is that middle of the road speeds seem rather useless for the path we are going down. Maybe there is some other important reasoning I have yet to come across, but if you have the stats to tank Latios, but claim that you can't beat the comparatively pathetic Politoed without speed, I think you need to find some greater reasoning than that. __________________ <Destiny_Warrior> jas will you do the dramatic reading <jas61292> I can't do anything dramatically. Not the actor type <Kadew> type tldr prc posts dramatically, then <Kadew> I'm sure you can manage that .

Mar 5th, 2013, 1:08:45 PM	#21
ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science! Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 710 Italy	I agree wholeheartedly with ginga and jas; I'm not going to post a spread of mine since the ones already proposed are very similar to the one I'd propose; however, I would not be concerned too much in outspeeding Toed (unless one goes for the 110 base Speed benchmark, which even if I don't like it, is reasonable in a sense, but is clearly not related to Toed) since SpecsToed can easily run 252 Spe (which is not uncommon at all), and if we want to fulfill our Lati check role, we need the investment in special bulk. We can still hit ridiculously hard on the switch even uninvested, and some of the proposed spreads aren't even 2HKO'd by Specs Ice Beam (prolly noone is, if one chooses to run Sitrus). I'm not blaming those 75 Spe at all, just I'd like the submitters to elaborate a bit more on that choice in light of ginganinja's suggestion. __________________ Counter that Pokemon project: Mk III & Warstory \| Mk IV RMTs: The HOutsiders (also the other ones if anyone likes lurking my old posts) Take a look at this before starting an argument Not accepting rating requests anymore. Sorry!

Mar 5th, 2013, 2:18:27 PM	#22
capefeather Here's my mega plan: YOU DIE Moderator Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,636 I'm a super fighting robot from the year 2010	I'm glad that we've had a better discussion on the middling Speed ranges after the fast ranges were so thoroughly settled. I'm sure that more people will eventually come in and have better explanations for the 71-80 Speed range, and I'm sure that DarkSlay has something good going with his aim of outrunning all Wash Rotom. As for me, I have conceded and lowered the Speed a bit. I still think that 60+ is important for various reasons, but outrunning Politoed naturally looks less attractive than it did before. I think it would only be worth it on a spread if it outruns Wash Rotom like DarkSlay's spread. __________________ If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will always be empty. <+joshe> im a registered sex offender for up to calc 3 <%V4> Naruto is climaxing! <+Reflect_Suicune> i was thining of fucking jellicent for some reason

Mar 5th, 2013, 3:38:41 PM	#23
nyttyn Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 642 Caw!	Final Submission 100 HP / 80 Atk / 50 Def / 35 SpA / 120 SpD / 115 Spe 500 BST 90.5701 PT Below Average 206.906 ST Fantastic 141.278 PS Good 70.8094 SS Poor 271.346 BSR Good Explination: Long version Defenses For starters, let's look at this spread's defenses: 90/50/120. This spread is going to survive resisted physical attacks, but will pretty much fall over and die if an especailly strong neutral STAB or a SE attack so much as sneezes on it. And that's fine - it has amazing special bulk to make up for that. Special bulk which allows us to eat the attacks from those nasty water types and Latis. Relevant calcs off of 252 HP: Specially defensive side: Choice Specs Latios: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 294-346 (72.77 - 85.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Choice Specs Poltioed: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in rain: 161-189 (39.85 - 46.78%) -- 37.11% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock Choice Specs Politoed: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 286-338 (70.79 - 83.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Choice Scarf Keldeo: 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in rain: 126-148 (31.18 - 36.63%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock As you can see, CAP5 can easily stomach the attacks we wish for it to stomach and then easily slough off the damage with sitrus berry recovery or lumrest spam. The only real concern lies in Focus Blast, but we can at worst lumrest stall it until we get a miss, at which point we can flat out OHKO. Physically defensive side: Choice Band Tyranitar: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 477-562 (118.06 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO Standard Landorus-T: 64+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 198-234 (49 - 57.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock DragonDanceSub Gyarados: 248+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom) in rain: 181-213 (44.8 - 52.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock As you can see, we can't really stomach the high-power hits that things with extreme power off the bat like Tyranitar have, but we can handle cases like Landorus-T or Gyarados where we resist it well enough. Not that we really need to stomach high-power physical hits - that's not CAP5's job, and letting it stand up to Choice Band Tyranitar's Stone Edge with 0 Def investment is too much considering CAP5's speed. On Lack of Special Tankyness You'll notice my spread is kind of lacking in special tankyness - this is intentional. When you use this spread variant of CAP5, you have to make a decision - do you want to go for a 252 HP / 252 SpDef spread and eat more attacks, or do you want to go for a 252 Hp / 252 Spe spread and gain the speed advantage? Relevant calcs off of 252 HP / 252 SpDef: Choice Specs Latios: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 219-258 (54.2 - 63.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Choice Specs Politoed: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom) in rain: 120-141 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock Choice Specs Poltioed: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 214-252 (52.97 - 62.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Choice Scarf Keldeo: 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom) in rain: 93-110 (23.01 - 27.22%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock Offenses It only has 80 attack because it really only needs 80 attack - any more and it's going to risk going in a direction we did not intend. Relevant calcs: Latios/Latias: 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 174-206 (57.61 - 68.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Calm Mind Latias: 0 Atk (custom) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 156-186 (42.85 - 51.09%) -- 61.33% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock Bulky Politoed: 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 186-222 (48.43 - 57.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Choice Specs Politoed: 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 272-324 (70.83 - 84.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Choice Scarf Keldeo: 0 Atk (custom) Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 236-278 (72.83 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock As you can see we, with zero investment, murder everything we desire to murder with 80 Attack quite well - the only iffy one is Calm Mind Latias, and even then it isn't exactly safe to start Calm Minding it up with both the risk of critical hits and crunch's defense drop. The odds are in the CAP5 user's favor as well, with Crunch not only having more PP, but also giving them about 24 chances at doing it, while the Latias user will only be able to occasionally sneak in a Calm Mind. As a side note, if one is willing, it takes exactly 70 attack EVs to always 2HKO CM Latias in every scenario, which means if that particular pokemon is a issue, then that's a option to take to constantly 2hko it. Speed Finally, the Speed was selected in order to always outspeed Latios and Latias who lack a Choice Scarf with 252 EVs and a Jolly nature. That's...pretty much it, really. Nothing else is relevant, since all this spread is concerned about is outspeeding Latios and Latias. However this also means CAP5 has drastically more options to spin or heal, which in turn gives it much more use then a slower spread on the aggressive, momentum-based nature of Sun teams. However, there's still the option of ignoring that and going fully into bulk if you so desire. Shortpoints: craptacular physical defense live resisted hits and meh to medium neutral, die to strong stab neutral, die to weakness great special defense speed racer, outspeed latis 115 spe looks nice and doesn't outspeed anything relevant past the latis don't bother with meaty wishes, CAP5 will never have the time to do it. Spread discourages them in fact, this is good no awkward stat #s. 0s and 5s baby! 2hko every lati set except calm mind, still a 60% chance of 2hkoing calm mind after rocks shrug off the damage with lumrest survive at least one specs meteor with a comfy coushin of HP left eat two sitrus afterwards and then you have enough HP to survive another meteor, giving you a chance to retaliate 500 bst! how can you not love 500 BST? __________________ http://i.imgur.com/M88s8ua.gif Last edited by nyttyn; Mar 8th, 2013 at 11:30:24 PM. Reason: FINAL DESTINAT-i mean submission

Mar 5th, 2013, 5:37:56 PM	#25
Admiral_Stalfos19 Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 379 Google it	Needs more fastmons :/ 88HP/75Atk/61Def/35SAt/154SDf/130Spe Physical Tankiness: 100.1771 (Above Average) Special Tankiness: 243.6314 (Fantastic) Physical Sweepiness: 136.1366 (Good) Special Sweepiness: 71.8508 (Poor) BST: 543 BSR: 299.4041 (Good, nudging on Very Good) Proper explanations will come shortly, but for now, some key points about this spread. * Physical Tankiness is akin to Shiftry's * 2HKO's standard Latios with an invested Crunch the vast majority of the time (this can only be avoided if Lady Luck absolutely despises of the CAP5 user). Also outspeeds it without having to use Jolly as its nature, and can take 1.5 Draco Meteors from Specs varients with ease. * Outspeeds Politoed even if it tries to run Choice Scarf (which is rare and unorthodox for a Politoed, I know, but let's be safe :3). Also outspeeds Starmie, Ttar w/ a DD/Scarf, Dugtrio and both Lati twins of all things noteworthy. This is of course assuming Jolly and full EV investment. * Has 3 multiples of 5 in stats (apparently its what people like for whatever reason :/) * SAt sits at 35 to stop CAP5 users from getting any ideas w/ Hidden Power. __________________ Colossoil +5 vs 60...ish: The War Saga Episode 1: A Fresh Start Episode 2: Wings of Conflict: Coming WHEN IT'S DONE!!