Smogon's First "Create a Pokemon": Poll 14 (the ACTUAL last poll)

[DougJustDoug**]

Originally Posted by Fat TaiwaneseDude

Sure, you can use the whole "Levitate" doesn't mean you should avoid mud. But mud (Mud Bomb, etc.) isn't really a "ground" thing, but it's not necessarily water, and it belongs to the dirt. If a truck was driving through the mud, it would not necessarily make a huge "splash" and "flying things" would not necessarily be.. hit by the mud. This reasonable to you guys?

OK, since you insist on reasoning out Levitate -- riddle me this: How can levitate make a BOOMERANG MADE OUT OF BONE, do absolutely no damage? Last time I checked, boomerangs are actually used to kill things that are in the air. And while you are coming up with that reason, answer this one too: Why would a levitating pokemon not be hurt at all, if you smack it in the head with a BONE CLUB?

Give up. Your argument is fail. There is no logical explanation for every move associated with a type immunity. You give immunity based on the general theme of the move type. In that sense, Levitation grants immunity to ground. By the same token, Mountaineer grants immunity to rock.

[Gothic Togekiss]

^ does this statement here imply to creatures that are/aren't granted immunity to things based on physical appearance because some shit that annoyed me about type immunity and such are also based on appearance.

How does this thing even take Spikes and/or Toxic Spike damage if he's alway flying and/or floating around? Does it land on the ground first then fly off?

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug

OK, since you insist on reasoning out Levitate -- riddle me this: How can levitate make a BOOMERANG MADE OUT OF BONE, do absolutely no damage? Last time I checked, boomerangs are actually used to kill things that are in the air. And while you are coming up with that reason, answer this one too: Why would a levitating pokemon not be hurt at all, if you smack it in the head with a BONE CLUB?

Give up. Your argument is fail. There is no logical explanation for every move associated with a type immunity. You give immunity based on the general theme of the move type. In that sense, Levitation grants immunity to ground. By the same token, Mountaineer grants immunity to rock.

Bonemerang and the other Bone Moves are basically excerptions to the rule of Ground attacks. Earthquake, Magnitude, Earth Power, and Fissure are the baseline for Ground attacks. If you're a floater, you're going to avoid them.

In contrast, Rock attacks involve smashing the opponent with rocks. Rock Slide, Stone Edge, Rock Throw, Rock Blast, Ancientpower, etc. Until you can make a case for a Bug or an Ice type to completely avoid getting squished/broken apart by rocks, good luck.

[Sunday]

That's the thing, Deck Knight - we dont need to have a case for completly avoiding damage from them. Not everything in Pokemon makes sence, live with it!

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord_Sunday

That's the thing, Deck Knight - we dont need to have a case for completly avoiding damage from them. Not everything in Pokemon makes sence, live with it!

So what you're saying is we should have given this Spore, Baton Pass, Belly Drum, Dragon Dance... oh heck, lets give it Sketch!

Sure, it doesn't make sence [sic], but this is pokemans, logic is secondary to making things broken beyond recognition.

AIM FOR THE HORN PEOPLES!

[Sunday]

Lol, I remember that episode. Anyway, if you paid closer attention to my analysis or even my post on the pervious page then you'de realise that Mountaineer is not nearly as broken as you think! Without a reliable Blizzard Syclant is forced to use Ice Beam, a fine move, but it causes Syclant to miss 2HKO's on some very important Pokes. One of these is Ducknoir, who immedietly threatens with Fire Punch and WoW. Cress is another, who can moonlight off the damage cripple with Twave.

[DougJustDoug**]

Why does Chlorophyll increase grass SPEED in the sun? Health, maybe. Defense or Special Defense, possibly. But speed? We're talking about grass -- how does sunlight make it faster? Maybe it GROWS faster, but growing isn't running or anything like that. If anything, growing is related to HP or something. When you think about it, Chlorophyll makes no sense. And they named it "Chlorophyll", of all things. As if it's "scientifically" logical or something. It's actually illogical as hell.

Why is Flash Fire activated with more fire? Don't fires get bigger when you add OXYGEN? I thought when you added fire, it actually combusts the existing fuel faster, thus REDUCING the size of the existing fire after the added heat source is removed. By that logic, Flash Fire is really backwards. You have to be a moron to think that fire is fueled by more fire. Flash Fire... what a ridiculous ability.

I hope you realize I am being sarcastic as hell.

The fact is, you have to think in broad generalities when "reasoning" the game of Pokemon. In broad general terms, Chlorophyll and Flash Fire make sense.

In broad general terms, Mountaineer makes sense.

[Sunday]

And on that note how the hell do Pokeballs work :S

[DougJustDoug**]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord_Sunday

And on that note how the hell do Pokeballs work :S

I've met a Wailord. They're really not as big as they look on TV. The camera adds ten pounds, at least. If you take that into account, those PokeBalls are quite roomy.

[TaiwaneseDude]

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug

OK, since you insist on reasoning out Levitate -- riddle me this: How can levitate make a BOOMERANG MADE OUT OF BONE, do absolutely no damage? Last time I checked, boomerangs are actually used to kill things that are in the air. And while you are coming up with that reason, answer this one too: Why would a levitating pokemon not be hurt at all, if you smack it in the head with a BONE CLUB?

Give up. Your argument is fail. There is no logical explanation for every move associated with a type immunity. You give immunity based on the general theme of the move type. In that sense, Levitation grants immunity to ground. By the same token, Mountaineer grants immunity to rock.

Rofl, it's a bonemerang, I doubt it'll be completely accurate. =P That was the set of moves I was missing, thank you.

Hahaha, you act so superior. So many of you are like that .. it's a simple logical argument, you can't deny logic right away. Might as well point out some random stuff on Syclant's moveset if you so like it.

Great, but why immunity to rock? There's no effing point. The moves you guys have given to him are great, give him great coverage, and he's got a super speedy and strong mixed base power set. Why negate one of the risks of him being thrown in the metagame? It just doesn't make sense. It just doesn't add up.

Rofl, give up, your argument is fail. Grow up...

[Sunday]

Our argument is fail? Your argument is that everything in video games has to make sence, and that Syclant is too powerful for OU.

There are a few problems with this.

1. Your first argument is completly devoidof what you support so much - logic
2. You believe this (mountaineer) will cause Syclant to overdominate the OU metagame, but what proof of this do you have? How can you reasonably imply that he is overpowered and is going to dominate without giving him propper testing. The only way to see if Syclant really does belong in OU is to properly test him out, which I believe we should try and do.
3. If Syclant is too strong for OU, then so what? There is another tier above OU you know, it's called "Ubers" There's nothing wrong with the Pokemon we created being moved into the Ubers tier if we properly test him and deem him too overcentralising for the OU metagame to handle.

[darkie]

How about this: Syclant is so fast, it dodges flying rocks.

[DougJustDoug**]

Originally Posted by Fat TaiwaneseDude

Hahaha, you act so superior. So many of you are like that .. it's a simple logical argument, you can't deny logic right away.
...
Rofl, give up, your argument is fail. Grow up...

I don't know who you are referring to by "so many of you". If you want to accuse me of acting superior, go right ahead. You can direct your comments directly at me, thank you. Don't make it sound like I'm in cahoots with a group of people out to get you.

When I said "your argument is fail", I didn't mean it like, "Shut up you cannot possibly beat me, you insignificant dolt." Maybe it came off that way, but that's not how I meant it. I meant that your attempt to apply logic to something inherently illogical, is not going to get anywhere.

You state that it is a "simple logical argument", as if that is a baseline assumption. It is a baseline assumption that I am specifically refuting.

[Chali]

Actually you guys are making him to powerful. First you're taking away his biggest set back (50% from Stealth Rock) ,you're making him faster than any not-scarfed-pokemon that can KO him with fire moves, and you're giving him a move pool that can't be walled. But I agree with you that we won't know if he's to powerful for OU until we test it out.

[TaiwaneseDude]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord_Sunday

Our argument is fail? Your argument is that everything in video games has to make sence, and that Syclant is too powerful for OU.

There are a few problems with this.

1. Your first argument is completly devoidof what you support so much - logic
2. You believe this (mountaineer) will cause Syclant to overdominate the OU metagame, but what proof of this do you have? How can you reasonably imply that he is overpowered and is going to dominate without giving him propper testing. The only way to see if Syclant really does belong in OU is to properly test him out, which I believe we should try and do.
3. If Syclant is too strong for OU, then so what? There is another tier above OU you know, it's called "Ubers" There's nothing wrong with the Pokemon we created being moved into the Ubers tier if we properly test him and deem him too overcentralising for the OU metagame to handle.

Haha, I obviously can't prove that Syclant with or without Mountaineer could overdominate the OU metagame because this Pokemon isn't obviously real.. And if we do test him and realize that he is a bit broken, will Mountaineer be a bit manipulated? Or will the voters here be too proud that they have to change their opinion..?

Hahaha, that'd be quite interesting. Bug that pwns Psychic, and ice that pwns dragon. I'd love to see this guy in ubers, it'd be hilarious. :D

Yeah, alright alright, debate over. Good stuff. I would just prefer a "stealth rock negation," but I personally don't really care. I think making this new ability is kinda pointless as it's going off tangent from going to "preventing stealth rock damage" into entire "rock immunity" or "spikes and toxic spikes immunity." That's just.. a bit too much. Extrapolation much?

[Darkflagrance]

Well, the good is that if somehow Mountaineer Syclant over-centralizes the metagame with its broken abilities, it will just be banned or have its abilities edited. Since we, Smogon, are created this pokemon ourselves, we retain the ability to modify it to make it more or less playable.

Also, can Colin program in a Mountaineer ability? If he can't the point is moot. (I include the latter easy-to-answer question in case you do not wish to comment on the other question.)

[Sunday]

On its own, Syclant may seem like a bit of an overcentralising Pokemon - but he's really not. You have two abilitys, both of which are critical to Syclants sucess, but both of which can also be achevived in different ways. Syclant is a kind of "High maintance, high payoff" or "Low maintanance, low payoff". If you want both 100% acc Blizzard and SR immunity then you either go Abomasnow and Mountaineer or Compoundeyes, preferably multiple spinner, and a Dusknoir counter. Both of these can make the team Syclant is on quite unbalanced. Alternativly you can stick an ability of Preference and hope Syclant does some damage, but it's extreem fragile and this hinders it if it uses Compoundeyes and without Blizzard as it's STAB it's vunerable to a whole wave of new walls.

Actually, I should add that to the opinions section of the Syclant analysis...

@ Above - I was hoping Colin, or someone else knowledgable, would help us make a "Syclant Mod" of Shoddy battle that included Syclant as a useable Pokemon and set up a server with the goal of testing Syclant.

[DougJustDoug**]

Originally Posted by Fat TaiwaneseDude

I would just prefer a "stealth rock negation," but I personally don't really care. I think making this new ability is kinda pointless as it's going off tangent from going to "preventing stealth rock damage" into entire "rock immunity" or "spikes and toxic spikes immunity." That's just.. a bit too much. Extrapolation much?

The Mountaineer ability might be too powerful. I guess we'll only find out if it is play-tested. From a battle mechanics standpoint, an ability that negates "Stealth Rock only" would be a viable ability. But from a "pokemon perspective" (as a opposed to the metagame), it just feels too specific. It's so specific to the metagame, that it looks contrived. By opening it up to an entire category of moves, it makes more sense to me. By opening it up, is it overpowered? I hope not. I don't think so... but we'll see.

[Sunday]

*sigh* If only there was a pre-existing Bug / Ice Pokemon then we could just get some hackers to hack us some "syclants" with the stats Syclant would have @ lv 100, and them moves, but alas, we do not...

Is there any way someone with an AR could change the typing of Pokes, lol?

[Chali]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord_Sunday

*sigh* If only there was a pre-existing Bug / Ice Pokemon then we could just get some hackers to hack us some "syclants" with the stats Syclant would have @ lv 100, and them moves, but alas, we do not...

Is there any way someone with an AR could change the typing of Pokes, lol?

Actually Shoddy may be able to work because some of the servers there have pokemon with different Base Stats, completely new abilities, but I'm not sure if adding a whole new pokemon is possible.

[Sunday]

Well they did have to add all the Pokes from scratch so i'm sure someone could do it...

[Chali]

Doesn't AmazingAmpheros have his own server, maybe he can help. Although I rarely see him here anymore.

[DougJustDoug**]

I work as a software developer for a living, but I've never looked at the Shoddy source code. Based on the descriptions of the Shoddy project, they claim to have made an extensible framework. That means it was built to be modded. As such, I would be very surprised if Syclant CAN'T be coded. But, we won't know until we get the opinion of someone familiar with Shoddy source, or we try to do it.

[Chali]

I say we go for it, but there is a thread on the Shoddy forums where you post that you are creating a server.

Edit: Here's the link to Shoddy's source code from the Repository (don't know what I'm saying),
http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=186888

and online (I was checking this one out and it may be what you need, although I don't know much about this stuff)
http://shoddybattle.cvs.sourceforge.net/shoddybattle/

[TaiwaneseDude]

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug

The Mountaineer ability might be too powerful. I guess we'll only find out if it is play-tested. From a battle mechanics standpoint, an ability that negates "Stealth Rock only" would be a viable ability. But from a "pokemon perspective" (as a opposed to the metagame), it just feels too specific. It's so specific to the metagame, that it looks contrived. By opening it up to an entire category of moves, it makes more sense to me. By opening it up, is it overpowered? I hope not. I don't think so... but we'll see.

Haha, that's just the thing. Stealth Rock is too specific, and "rock moves" in general is (in my opinion and I'm sure there are many out there that will concur) too broad. It seems like there really is no middle ground to this.

But, since we ARE going for testing before we send it into Nintendo, why don't we try out the "SR weakness only."

I proposed something in the topic earlier about.. 25% or 50% nullification of rock damage. (to specify and not let it be stone edge, you could even make it nullification of indirect rock damage -- I would include sandstorm in this.) I really think that could definitely "balance" it out. I'm sure Syclant could still SURVIVE after a Stone Edge, I'm sure. And only losing 25% health on SR would be more beneficial in getting it in. It just makes more sense. So it's like "Solid Rock" but a little different.