Smogon "Create a Pokemon" Part Deux: Poll 4

[Viashino_wizard]

I'm going with 500-525. This thing already has excellent typing, so there's no need for huge stats.

[Qyyu]

you know...the people voting for uber base stats are either noobs or just annoying people......

[Darkflagrance]

Uber ghost with Slow Start FTW!

It does appear a little odd that the winning option has as its examples two offensive fighting types, while the other non-legendary non-generic category includes only pokemon with primary normal types.

Rhykune's stat distribution appears rather efficient and appeals to my aesthetic sense of balance. I agree with it.

[Gothic Togekiss]

If 526-540 wins
90/110/105/70/95/65 = 535

If 500-525 wins
90/105/100/70/95/65 = 525

As you can see I already have mine planned out just in chance either of the two leading options win out. Might edit them later, if I see the need for it.

[Bogmire]

What the fuck? I thought this was Smogon create a pokemon. not
Deck Knight, Cooper, FutureSuperStar, Lord Sunday, DougJustDoug, King of Anime, Sanjay numbers, Gothic Togekiss, and Eric the Espeon create a pokemon @_@

[Qyyu]

too bad :p I'd like to join in on the base stat fun but I'm not good at that stuff..... plus I think I did my part in keeping the tag thing alive on this pokemon, now that I think about it I'd like to be included on the base stat stuff, I might have some ideas for the stats....or not. I just want to be on the list please? XD I've been with this thing since the art part...even though I didn't provide any art to it.

"procrastination wins the day for the slakers and the people who are making Duke Nukem Forever" - Q

nice base stats explanation KOA

[Gothic Togekiss]

Originally Posted by Fat Bogmire

What the fuck? I thought this was Smogon's create a pokemon. not
Deck Knight, Cooper, FutureSuperStar, Lord Sunday, DougJustDoug, King of Anime, Sanjay numbers, Gothic Togekiss, and Eric the Espeon create a pokemon #_#

Damn...sorry, didn't know all are stat spread spamming would make you feel this way D:

[Cooper]

Originally Posted by Fat Bogmire

What the fuck? I thought this was Smogon create a pokemon. not
Deck Knight, Cooper, FutureSuperStar, Lord Sunday, DougJustDoug, King of Anime, Sanjay numbers, Gothic Togekiss, and Eric the Espeon create a pokemon @_@

True, but this also isn't "Every Joe Schmoe out there pitch BSTs, because that would lead to the stupidity we witnessed in the first half of Poll 3, and half of them would say '100/ 1/ 1/ 350/ 1/ 150' with an ability that stops priority damage". If you think you've contributed enough to submit one for consideration, tell Hyra. Also remember that he's the one sifting through 15 pages of text, not you. As the founder of "Create A Pokemon," I know that that can be a bitch, which is why I conducted BSTs through PM.

[Rena22]

Voted 500-525 because any higher is too good for this typing

[Ancax]

I'm voting for 0-499, ONLY b/c it will make the stat spread more challenging, and will balance the Pokemon's typing with having limitations. It can still be effective with less than 5oo BST, IMO.

[junior]

Friend of Lucario PLEASE!

[KoA]

I voted 500-525 as well. It fits this pokemon's niche perfectly and allows for some very flexible spreads. It essentially does its job well with this BST range.

My suggested spread in this post pretty much explains what I felt might be a great spread for this guy.

EDIT: also, I feel special for receiving mention, go me. :P

[Chronos]

Originally Posted by Fat Qyyu

you know...the people voting for uber base stats are either noobs or just annoying people......

I voted uber.... for the lulz.

[DougJustDoug**]

As Hyra mentioned, there won't be a lot of posting on this poll. That's fine, because we can post our various stat spread ideas and tune them before the next poll. Hopefully, we'll get a decent mix of stat lines.

Here's my initial thoughts. I haven't gone to the calculator to work up exact counters and such, so this will likely get tuned up. Here's my starting stat line:

95/95/100/75/90/80 = 535

Here's a few key explanations:

- My stat line will have nothing but multiples of 5. I'm used to categorizing stats by round numbers, and calcing max stats etc based off those. The vast majority of pokes have "round" base stats. I always hate those exception pokemon that have "weird" base stats.

- I want a very balanced stat line. To me the single biggest selling point of this pokemon is its typing. It does not need any exceptional stats. In many cases, a balanced stat line can be the kiss of death for a competitive poke. Good at many things, great at nothing. OU pokes generally aren't a "jack of all trades", unless they have 600 BST. But with typing like Ghost/Fighting, we can get away with it. Swampert has been mentioned as the prototype for this. Swampert gets away with balanced stats because it's typing is so damn good. Same thing here.

- It should have enough defense to stand in there and take some shots on both ends of the spectrum. Since it resists Stealth Rock, and it blocks Rapid Spin, I expect this to be switched in and out a LOT. As such, it will need to take some hits without getting destroyed. SE hits on this will be minimal. Few pokes carry a Psychic move. Most Flying moves are low BP. Realistically, Ghost moves are the primary thing doing significant damage to this.

- I want it to be fast enough to get the jump on bulkier opponents, but it should be easily outsped by lots of stuff. I'd like its speed to be fast enough to make a scarf a potential surprise for all but the true speed demons. I really think 80 is the right number. I don't plan to change this.

- I want this to beat things by grinding it out. It's attack should be sufficient to threaten things only when paired with durability. I don't think it should be a OHKO machine. If we give it Close Combat, I want the defense drop to be a real limitation. Unlike most users of CC, who don't give a shit about losing defenses, since they'll always KO or switch out. I'm hoping our pokemon is designed to slug it out a few rounds against an opponent. With good-but-not-great attack, the "switch vs. stay" decision for the opponent is less clear. I like that possibility.

- Special attack should be just usable. I pegged it at 75. That's enough that some surprise special moves could be used, but not normally.

I'm flexible on just about everything but the speed. I might make changes after I do damage calcs against various threats. Comments are welcome.

[Viashino_wizard]

I like that spread, though it's looking like you might need to cut 10 points out somewhere.

[Gothic Togekiss]

Doug....let me give it to you straight, your post there is really thought-out and inspiring like FSS and Deck Knight. I personally see no huge problems in it but can it still threaten creatures like T-Tar and the likes? Also that whole post there make me want to retool my stat spread which I need some tech opinions on it too.

[gorm]

voted 526-545 since i want it to be a bit togekissy

[Urza]

doug's spread is the my favorite so far, and the most in line with what i've been hoping ends up resulting from the poll. suggestion if you have to remove some points to meet the lower bst? hp. 85 hp is still a respectable enough number, and increases the likelihood of it getting a better recovery move without being broken. in my head anyway.

[scorchedsky]

Voted Uber because its typing would be exceptionally curious there. Ghost and Fighting are two common Arceus types, and combining them could have interesting consequences. The Uber metagame isn't balanced by any means, but this could add some potential diversity.

[Syberia]

120/85/90/60/90/65 gives a nice stat total of 510. That's what I am going to propose. Great user of Bulk Up, perhaps in combination with Substitute. I'm assuming it will get Mach Punch/Shadow Sneak, so 65 base speed is certainly passable.

[nihilist]

this thing needs slack off or something like that ;)

[futuresuperstar]

My Suggested Statistical Spread
A Final In-Depth Look

Introduction and Purposes:
Our Ghost / Fighting Pokemon has been labeled as a balanced and bulky creation with notable defenses and average speed. According to recent polls, it has been confined to the total statistical range of 500-525, placing it around the likes of Lucario in terms of its final base statistical total. With its impressive typing and established role, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon has the ability to influence the current metagame in a similar fashion as Swampert, flaunting the ability to hang around a battle long after its welcome. Only three types hit a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon for super-effective damage -- Flying, Ghost, and Psychic. Two of the aforementioned three types are rarely seen in competitive play outside of a few select Pokemon, and both Ghost-types and Psychic-types are easily taken down by super-effective Ghost-typed STAB. In other words, this Pokemon has the ability to effectively "counter" its two of its three weaknesses with its own STAB, giving it a unique little niche in which to thrive outside of the likes of Swampert and company.

Where does this leave our intended base spread? The answer is quite simple. A Ghost / Fighting Pokemon needs to have the ability to "do" what its typing implies that it can do. In specific, it must be able to counter essentially all forms of Heracross, adding it to a select handful of Pokemon that can stand up to the renowned bug of death. Furthermore, it needs to be able to give most Tyranitar a run for its money. Finally, it needs to be able to take full advantage of its ability to survive in a match for an extended period of time, bringing attention to the inevitability of a move such as Bulk Up. Once again, our Ghost / Fighting Pokemon shares a certain uniqueness with Swampert -- it could very easily mimic the role of "CursePert," focusing on its defenses on the special side of the spectrum and relying on its statistical increasing move to boost its physical and defensive capabilities. Another prime example in the current metagame is Suicune -- it focuses on physical defense and relies on Calm Mind to give it both its lasting ability on the opposite side of the spectrum and its threatening ability to sweep through a team. However, both of these examples fall under the category of "lingering threats" -- they are Pokemon that are not so threatening at first and, consequently, must build themselves into the likes of a sweeper that simply will not die.

In other words, it is important to remember that a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon must be forced to rely on its stat boosts to last on the physical side of the spectrum against most physical threats while still being able to counter specific entities like Heracross because of its key resistances. It is imperative that it is not initially overpowered, but instead given the ability to overpower itself against an opponent that makes the mistake of giving it time to "power up."

With all of the aforementioned in mind, I have gone to great lengths to design a base statistical spread that will most encompass a bulky Ghost / Fighting Pokemon's inherent duty to a competent team. So, without further adieu: the final spread.

The Final Statistical Spread
Analyzing the Outlined Spread

The Base Statistical Spread:
90 HP / 105 Attack / 90 Defense / 65 Sp. Attack / 110 Sp. Defense / 65 Speed
Total = 525 BST

In-Depth Analysis -- 90 HP
The first factor of any base statistical spread is HP, and our Ghost / Fighting creation is no different. There are many factors that play into the decision to suggest a base statistic of 90 HP. First and foremost, it nets the possibility of 384 Maximum HP. Such a number grants it excellent Leftovers recovery, as the number is divisible by sixteen. Some notable Fighting-types hang right alongside this number -- Poliwrath and Machamp. It also exists as a happy medium between some of the ridiculous exceptions, such as Hariyama's massive Maximum HP of 492 and Hitmontop's rather embarrassing Maximum HP of 304. Moreover, most Ghost-types spike either extremely low or extremely high, making a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon the first Ghost-typed hybrid to flaunt an HP Statistic of above average quality. Even still, it puts it underneath Swampert by a notable ten base statistical points, making sure to keep it away from an exact replica. Finally, and most importantly, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon does not need an extremely high base HP Statistic, seeing as the likes of Seismic Toss -- and, consequentially, Blissey -- cannot harm it. Due to this immunity, Substitute could become a very viable for our new creation.

In-Depth Analysis -- 105 Attack
One of the main points that I attempted to establish in my introduction to this proposal was that a bulky Ghost / Fighting Pokemon needed to lack the ability to hit extremely hard right off the bat without sacrificing its defenses. In fact, this very statement is one of the most pertinent reasons why using Close Combat on a bulky Ghost / Fighting Pokemon is less than desireable. With the exception of situational uses of Focus Punch, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon would need to have its safest and most realistic STAB Fighting-move reside right around the likes of Brick Break and Force Palm, and maybe Sky Uppercut. Between this particular truth and Shadow Claw's relatively low base power, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon would be forced to rely on the likes of Bulk Up to really give it its power.

Therefore, an base 105 Attack was selected to give our creation the ability to boost its actual statistics fairly high while still having to rely on relatively weaker base powered moves to take down its competition outside of its obvious type-advantages. Such a statistic places it on par with fellow Fighting-types like Primeape and Hitmonchan while replacing their freedom of using Close Combat with impressive defenses while simultaneously giving it the highest base attack of any current Ghost-type outside of Giratina and Banette. Mismagius also flaunts a familiar base 105 attacking statistic, just on the special side of the spectrum instead of the physical side.

One important thing to consider was the amount of physical attack our creation would need to take down a Maximum HP Tyranitar with Brick Break. Below is a sample damage calculation -- can a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon with a base 105 Attack, neutral nature, and zero EVs in Attack take down a Maximum HP Tyranitar?

246 Attack STAB Brick Break vs. 252 HP Tyranitar = 79-93%
246 Attack STAB Sky Uppercut vs. 252 HP Tyranitar = 89-100%

Exactly. The answer is no. This thing should not have the ability to defeat Tyranitar in one hit without first earning its right to stay in the battle through the use of Bulk Up. Obviously, with Stealth Rock in play, it is possible to beat Tyranitar in one hit with Sky Uppercut, but the player risks missing, something that it may not be able to afford when relying on staying power against such a massive threat. This goes to prove how a base 105 Attack, while powerful, does not overpower a bulky Ghost / Fighting-type without first either managing to get a few statistical boosts under its belt or giving up its durability through the use of Close Combat.

In-Depth Analysis -- 90 Defense
One of the most important statistics to consider is our creation's defense and, ergo, its physical defensive capabilities before and after a single Bulk Up. It is expected, after all, to be able to take on all forms of Heracross. So, first and foremost, here are some damage calculations to support the combination of base 90 HP and base 90 Defense:

Max Attack Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = Immune
Max Attack Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 22-26%
Max Attack Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 25-29%
Max Attack Choice Band Heracross Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 35-41%
Max Attack Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 63-74%
Max Attack Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 39-46%
Max Attack Choice Band Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured Creation = 52-61%

So, as shown, it has the ability to stop Heracross as it is designed to without having to invest any EVs into its Defense. This gives it the ability to act fairly well defensively based on its key resistances; however, as shown, neutral hard-hitting attacks will take our Ghost / Fighting Pokemon down. However, if played against its excellent resistances and immunities, it can manage to get a single Bulk Up under its belt. Look at how things change after it nets a single Bulk Up:

Max Attack Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Defense Neutral Natured +1 Creation = 35-41%

Essentially, our creation would have to rely on its resistances to operate well on the physically defensive side of the spectrum until it could manage to boosts its statistics with the likes of Bulk Up. Only then can it truly operate on both sides, similar to inability to take strong special hits until it manages to power itself up through Calm Mind.

Now, another positive to having a base 90 Defense is the actual number a neutral natured variation hits without any EVs in Defense, a very round and comfortable value of 216, easily multiplied and comparable to a fully defensive Scizor, Celebi, or Jirachi after a single Bulk Up. It complements its base 105 Attack quite well, especially against those enemies it is expected to counter.

In-Depth Analysis -- 65 Sp. Attack
This section simply exists for the sake of professionalism and presentation. The bottom line is that this statistic is largely irrelevant, as there is absolutely no use for it. Even the acclaimed filler-move Fire Blast would see very little use on our Ghost / Fighting Pokemon, as its main targets -- Forretress and Skarmory -- have no business ever fairly facing it. It will never be able to take on Skarmory unless it has a sufficient amount of statistical boosts under its belt, and Forretress cannot do anything to a bulky Ghost / Fighting, as it is immune to Explosion and Rapid Spin and slow enough to down-right laugh at any attempts regarding Gyro Ball.

In-Depth Analysis -- 110 Sp. Defense
Now, this is one of the most interesting aspects to the spread. A Ghost / Fighting Pokemon with access to Bulk Up would most likely focus on its Special Defense, similar to Suicune's focus on Defense with access to Calm Mind. A base 110 Sp. Defense statistic allows our creation to take special hits very well outside of Shadow Ball, Psychic, and Air Slash. In fact, with the combination of a base 90 HP statistic and a base 110 Sp. Defense statistic, our Ghost / Fighting Pokemon is largely comparable to a special defensive Heatran and Slowking. It may not have the same resistances as Heatran, but it also has very little weakness to exploit, unlike Heatran's 4x-Ground-weakness. Finally, unlike Slowking, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon is not weak to Pursuit, giving it a notable edge over Slowking. With enough attention to Special Defense, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon can simply last through many threats, even more effectively than Swampert's combination of a base 100 HP and a base 90 Sp. Defense.
In-Depth Analysis -- 65 Speed
The final facet to any base statistical spread is Speed. With a base 65 Speed statistic, a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon could have the ability to out-speed Tyranitar and take it out with a Fighting-type move. While its superiority to Tyranitar's speed is certainly the most important aspect of its speed statistic, our creation would also have the ability to out-speed many notable no-speed base 60-Pokemon, many of which are walls that can be taken down by boosted Fighting-typed or Ghost-typed attacks. Also of note is our creation's potential access to priority moves. Being a Ghost / Fighting Pokemon, it could very easily turn up with the ability to use Mach Punch and Shadow Sneak. The former could quite easily dispatch of Weavile and finish off menaces like Tyranitar, Lucario, Empoleon, Magnezone, Heatran, and company. The latter could serve as a protective barrier against Gengar, Mismagius, Azelf, Celebi, Starmie, and the like, especially paired with the use of Bulk Up. Also, for more offensive variations of our creation, a base speed of 65 paired with incentive and a Choice Scarf has the ability to hit 376 Speed, enough to out-speed the Base 120 Speed Tier at 372 Speed.

Conclusions and Final Thoughts:
The following base spread, as explored in the aforementioned block of text, has the ability to stir up a whole new world in the current metagame. I hope that I have done my job in convincing you, the reader. However, it will never see the light of day without your vote and support. A vote for the following spread is a vote for a new Heracross counter, a vote for a new sturdy tank, and a vote for a great new addition to the overused metagame!

The Final Spread
90 HP / 105 Attack / 90 Defense / 65 Sp. Attack / 110 Sp. Defense / 65 Speed
Total = 525 BST

[Time Mage]

I voted for the 500-525 range. And with that, I really mean 515-525 >_>

Anyway, frm the proposals I've seen, this are the ones I like the most:

Originally Posted by Fat Rhykune

95/110/90/60/100/70
Final Total: 525

I'd switch around the HP for the Def, and the SAtt for the Spd, but this is actually a good spread. As I said before, while 70 speed lets the pokémon do a number of things 60 speed didn't allow, the contrary isn't exactly true for the special attack, and thus it feels cheap to me lowering the least used attacking stat that much. I like the fact that the defenses are only 10 points apart, and I do like a 110 attack stat.

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

If 526-540 wins
90/110/105/70/95/65 = 535

If 500-525 wins
90/105/100/70/95/65 = 525

To me, both are perfect, honestly. Those are exactly what I would have chosen if I designed a BST. Even defenses, that are a bit higher than the HP, good but not stellar attack, mediocre speed, and mediocre but usable in certain situations special attack.

Originally Posted by Fat futuresuperstar

The Final Spread
90 HP / 105 Attack / 90 Defense / 65 Sp. Attack / 110 Sp. Defense / 65 Speed
Total = 525 BST

(Quoting only the BST, but I've read it all).

This one I like too, but what makes it not my favorite is the imbalanced defensive stats. You explain it because, through using Bulk Up, it can focus on SDef and thus be bulkier on both ends... Well, that's not only assuming Bulk Up, but giving it a cheap edge when using it. If the defenses are relatively even, is up to the player deciding what stat pump the EVs on, and which nature use to boost the defenses (if any). Giving an advantage to SDef doesn't seem fair to me.






Well, that's all. Take my opinions as they are: Opinions. ^_^

[eric the espeon]

ok, i will explain my spread

125/110/70/60/85/75 total 525

125 HP so it can take hits on both quite easily. ghosts sometimes have high hp, like driftblim.

110 attack, so its a tank not a wall, their are some tanks that have high attack, donphan has base 120.

70 defence is good enough with 125 base HP, but low enough to still be hurt by powerful nutral phy. attacks

60 sp.attack is not to be used, but with a 4x efective HP it could just aout hurt some things.

85 sp. def so it can absorb non super efective attacks quite easily, but still be hurt by the most powerful of them.

75 speed alows it to beat the base 70 group, and alows it to be used as a sweeper if you invest masivly in speed.

any sugestions for tweaks?

[KoA]

We don't need HP THAT big. Driblim and Giratina are the only Ghost types who have higher than 70 HP.

Drifblim has high HP due to his ass defenses and general frailty and Giratina does because he's a damned monster and has high everything else.

EDIT: Also reposting my spread incase you weren't in a WoT reading mood with my post:

"HP: 65
Atk: 120
Def: 110
SpAtk: 80
SDef: 85
Speed: 65

Total: 525"