Analysis of Base Stats

[Mekkah**]

Because it weighs stats on how they're used, not merely the total. Speed only matters if either of the Pokemon is going to die. If you're faster and you're about to die, you knock out the opponent and prevent yourself from taking damage, so it's a defense boost. You're also killing the opponent instead of getting killed, therefore it's also an offense boost. That's merely an example, but one of the very few where Spd has even remotely as much weight as any of the other stats.

Therefore, a raw stat total is less close to the whole story as this.

[CardsOfTheHeart]

You can't just look at totals. For example, Shuckle has the same BST as Machamp, but how many would argue that Shuckle is in the same class stat-wise as Machamp?

From what I gather, this analysis factors BSTs as well as how the stats are distributed to provide a better perspective on who has the better stats. Shuckle really gets screwed through its lack of Atk/SpA, and it shows in the analysis.

...By the way, are you trying to test me, MoP? Certainly you've been around the competitive scene long enough to know this, already.

[Aeroblacktyl]

My point is that, couldn't someone just look at each Poke's base stat, to see where they have strengths in. For example, if I wanted a sweeper I sure as fuck would not pick Shuckle. I would be able to just glance at the base stats and see that I could pick anything else. Why does base stat total matter for ANYTHING. If Machamps base special attack was like 10, wouldn't it's place on this chart go down? For that reason, I find this almost complete utterly useless, but than I'm really ignorant towards math and this kind of stuff so please someone enlighten me.

[Mekkah**]

For one, you are ignoring the fact that it is part of a bigger project that will eventually take into account somehow that Machamp hardly if ever uses Special Attacks.

For two, this isn't about "i want a sweeper". This is about "i want a good overall Pokemon with overall good distribution" as it is. Stat distribution isn't everything, however. This is only part of the process.

[Time Mage]

Originally Posted by Fat X-Act

EDIT2: Time Mage, I'll repeat again: I'm comparing base stats, and that means that using the same move power for Atk and SpA is the way to go. When I compare Pokemon with their typing and movepools, then of course that would change.

Still, you're giving more importance to speed (and rightfully so), because it is determinant on many matchups. On the same vein, using one attacking stat or the other should also be determinant in the outcome.

If you want to strictly measure stats, then just sum all of them. But if you're aiming to measure how stat distribution affects the outcome (as you are doing with the emphasis on speed), then I think a weighting on which attacks stat consider more is important. I mean, why is Heracross so good, despite its low base stats total, and his low placement in your chart? Because its lower stat, SAtk, is just abysmal, but also not used at all. If we just removed every pokémon SAtk stat, then the sum of Heracross stats would be much higher (and its placement in your chart would be higher, also).

EDIT@Mekkah: I know this is part of a bigger project, but I think, as I've said above, that measuring stats should take the imbalance in attacking stats into account. That's part of stats, too. What's not part of stats is the fact that Heracross has STAB in Mega Horn and CC, and Pinsir doesn't have STAB on fighting moves and can only access X-Scissors.

[Aeroblacktyl]

That doesn't mean anything at all. Numbers are important, but in this instance, it doesn't actually help you to achieve anything you wouldn't already without this. I'm still clueless as to what this does. What does it do that would help you actually battle? What does it do to help you win? How does it help you make a good team? Or is this just for show and oh's and ah's and for fun?

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Originally Posted by Fat Aeroblacktyl

That doesn't mean anything at all. Numbers are important, but in this instance, it doesn't actually help you to achieve anything you wouldn't already without this. I'm still clueless as to what this does. What does it do that would help you actually battle? What does it do to help you win? How does it help you make a good team? Or is this just for show and oh's and ah's and for fun?

This is just the beginning. Give some time for this to develop and factor in more variables. Feel free to blast the concept once everything is settled.

[sandman]

Originally Posted by Fat X-Act

EDIT: sandman, I'd appreciate if you tell me of any other errors in the base stats that you encounter, so that I fix the list.

charizard has 78 hp not 79

EDIT: thats the only other one i could find, before just from looking at those two errors i thought that maybe there were more.

[Brawley]

Nice guide also lol at Dragonite being lower than entei.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah

For one, you are ignoring the fact that it is part of a bigger project that will eventually take into account somehow that Machamp hardly if ever uses Special Attacks.

For two, this isn't about "i want a sweeper". This is about "i want a good overall Pokemon with overall good distribution" as it is. Stat distribution isn't everything, however. This is only part of the process.

Darn, and I so adore my Fire Blasting No Guard Machamp. Screw you Forry, Bronzong, and Skarm >_>

Yeah, this is a lot of seemingly unneccesary math, but one thing I found interesting was bared out in the topic about Diminishing returns on HP/Defense.

It seems here that even if you have awesome offensive stats and speed, but get slaughtered in one hit you each a low rating. Wheras if you have high speed and decent defenses and attack power (e.g. are a powerhouse that doesn't get owned immediately) you score high.

I found Mewtwo's placement at #2 quite interesting. Lugia was just behind at #3, and Ho-Oh was #8.

Thing is, these pokemon have the exact same numbers in their individual base stats. Ho-oh actually took a hit because he had higher offenses than Lugia but lower defense and speed. Lugia took a hit because even with it's blatantly superior defenses and still high speed, it fell just short because of low offenses.

Now look at Eeveelutions, who share the same phenomena of a 130/110/95/65/65/60 BST.

Vaporeon is at #71.
Umbreon is at #73
Espeon is at #77
Glaceon is at #81
Leafeon is at #83(just below Glaceon, which ties with P2 at #81)
Flareon is at #86
Jolteon is at #97

I find it interesting that Jolteon is actually the lowest. It has the highest stats in speed and SA, decent SD, and its physical stats and HP suck.

Espeon on the other hand has the same HP, attack, and S/Def stats as Jolteon, but with Speed and SA reversed. It moved up 20 spots on the list.

Vaporeon and Umbreon are the most defensive on the list. That massive HP does wonders for Vappy. Interestingly, its 110 base is in SA. I wonder where it would rank if it were 110 in SD and 95 is SA.

I think these are the most valuable analyses since they are the exact same specific numeric values, but placed in different areas. The Espeon/Jolteon rift is interesting to say the least.

[Xênaz]

Very amazing read. I do have one request if it isn't a huge hassle... What would Tyranitar's rating be during a SS since it gets the Special Defense boost. I'm a bit confused on the formula, otherwise I'd do it myself. Lol, if you don't have time don't sweat it, but maybe you might find the answer interesting.. xD

Thank you very much for this. :D

[Blissey_ODonnell]

I'm agreeing with MoP that this seems kinda... useless. I don't care if Walrein has better weighted Base stats overall than Infernape, because Infernape's are better distributed to specifically fill its niche.

[Kira]

You guys dont understand. It is useless now, but it is a part of a much bigger project.

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Originally Posted by Fat Blissey_ODonnell

I'm agreeing with MoP that this seems kinda... useless. I don't care if Walrein has better weighted Base stats overall than Infernape, because Infernape's are better distributed to specifically fill its niche.

I'm going to give you the same advice I gave MoP:

Be patient.

This may seem useless if you're not interested in this kind of thing, but every good structure requires a solid foundation. In this case, this is a foundation for building an objective method to compare Pokemon. It's nowhere near an end, but it's a good start.

[DeLorean]

Originally Posted by Fat Grawl

Fuck badges, you deserve a frikkin halo

Edit: Lol, Sunflora > Deoxys-A

Second.

Great job, X-Act.

[Slice n Dice]

wow.

Such incredible work...I am almost speechless.

It was pretty funny to see chomp so high up there.

[X-Act]

Answering questions again.

Yeah, Blissey is down the list because without EVs, its Defense stat is only 56. Not to mention that its attacking stats are only 10 and 75, which makes it unlikely to deal a lot of damage to things herself.

MoP, all this does is compare base stats with each other. Yes, if Machamp's SpA was 10, it would go down this list. Why? Because with that stat, Machamp's SpA wouldn't be worth using any Special move for. Look at Blissey for instance. Do you see a Blissey use a physical attack? No, because its attack stat is only 10. Do you see Machamp use a special attack? Sometimes yes (Fire Blast).

Another thing: using HP, Def and SpD for the defensive stats hides how much a Pokemon is defensive. 130/85/85 defenses are better than 95/105/105 defenses, for example, even though 130+85+85 = 300 while 95+105+105 = 305! This provides an answer to Time Mage as well btw.

Movepools, boosts from weather, etc. will hopefully be tackled at another time, so it's useless to do an imbalance on physical/special stats right now.

[Time Mage]

Originally Posted by Fat X-Act

Another thing: using HP, Def and SpD for the defensive stats hides how much a Pokemon is defensive. 130/85/85 defenses are better than 95/105/105 defenses, for example, even though 130+85+85 = 300 while 95+105+105 = 305! This provides an answer to Time Mage as well btw.

Pardon me if I tackle the issue again: Taking all defenses into account is logical, of course. All pokémon want higher defenses, and will make use of them in one way or another. But since you are sequentially comparing pokémon_i to pokémon_j, weighting the attacking stats will not ignore this: If we make constant j (the defensive pokémon), for every attacking one that is using mainly its physical attack there will be a roughly equal number of other pokémon that will be using mainly their special attack stat, thus, both defenses are roughly equally tested and being put to use.

So, since defenses are still tested equally, and offenses are tested in proportion of their quality, I still think that this method is better to get an idea of the "quality" of each base stats distribution.



I hope I'm not appearing to be mindlessly stubborn, I think I'm making a point, and reasoning it. My argument is specifically related to base stats, and even the weighting I proposed is not subjective, but directly tied to those, so I'm not bringing external arguments to the discussion. They're in the same vein as "speed is important because, if KOing in the same number of turns, the faster one will do better".

[oPlaiD]

Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah

Because it weighs stats on how they're used, not merely the total. Speed only matters if either of the Pokemon is going to die. If you're faster and you're about to die, you knock out the opponent and prevent yourself from taking damage, so it's a defense boost. You're also killing the opponent instead of getting killed, therefore it's also an offense boost. That's merely an example, but one of the very few where Spd has even remotely as much weight as any of the other stats.

Therefore, a raw stat total is less close to the whole story as this.

The other issue with speed is that the actual difference in values doesn't matter, unlike the other stats.

A Pokemon with 80/80/80/80/80/1000 would have a huge BST, but against something like Arceus it'd still lose. If you put the 1000 in something else like attack it would obviously come out on top, so this would mean the theoretical Pokemon has a poor distribution.

This means that a minor bump in speed, like Garchomp's 102 vs. 100, has the potential to have a much bigger boost in effectiveness than raising another stat by a similar level.

[oPlaiD]

Originally Posted by Fat Time Mage

Pardon me if I tackle the issue again: Taking all defenses into account is logical, of course. All pokémon want higher defenses, and will make use of them in one way or another. But since you are sequentially comparing pokémon_i to pokémon_j, weighting the attacking stats will not ignore this: If we make constant j (the defensive pokémon), for every attacking one that is using mainly its physical attack there will be a roughly equal number of other pokémon that will be using mainly their special attack stat, thus, both defenses are roughly equally tested and being put to use.

So, since defenses are still tested equally, and offenses are tested in proportion of their quality, I still think that this method is better to get an idea of the "quality" of each base stats distribution.



I hope I'm not appearing to be mindlessly stubborn, I think I'm making a point, and reasoning it. My argument is specifically related to base stats, and even the weighting I proposed is not subjective, but directly tied to those, so I'm not bringing external arguments to the discussion. They're in the same vein as "speed is important because, if KOing in the same number of turns, the faster one will do better".

Taking into account all defenses makes sense, but the way it has been implemented does not.

This is using a straight Pokemon-vs.-Pokemon comparison, so it doesn't make sense to use both Atk and SpAtk since a Pokemon can't attack using both of those stats in the same turn.

Instead, since we're doing this on a Pokemon-by-Pokemon basis, you could take into account whichever stat is most effective to attack with in that particular battle. This will still have the net effect of taking both stats into account, since we're comparing every single Pokemon, but only takes them into account in situations where they're actually relevant. This could also produce meaningful differences in the results. For example, if the general trend of the game is to have Pokemon with very high Def and few Pokemon with very low Def, having a higher SpAtk stat will probably weight more than having a higher Atk.

So, you match up Atk/Def, SpAtk/SpDef, figure out which does more damage, and use that for each round of the hypothetical battle. This would take it one step closer to a more "practical" model, and one step closer to a form where movepool and typing can be considered.

Next you'd just go one step further: instead of using the generic 90BP STAB move for the comparison you'd take a look at each Pokemon's movepool and find out which move does the most damage to whoever they're up against taking into account typing for STAB and SE/NE hits.

Of course, you're still missing Natures, EVs, traits, non-attacking moves, etc, but... what can you do? It'll be impossible to make it absolutely perfect.

[X-Act]

oPlaid: I said I was going to do something similar to what you're saying in the next step. I haven't done it yet. So be patient. :)

Time Mage: What exactly determines which stat will be used the most? Isn't that the movepool? Look at Flareon. It has 130 Attack stat, yet the strongest move it gets to use it is Return (which does more than Fire Fang). Since this doesn't consider the movepool at all, the best thing I could do is make them do the same amount of damage using both stats. Now, when the movepool is considered, I'll take that into consideration of course.

Speaking of this, I'd need a bit of help for this. I'll basically need a list of every Pokemon's movepool listed in a certain way. I want the movepool to be listed as something like this:

Bulbasaur
Poison 90 S
Grass 80 S
Grass 80 P

etc. Those correspond to Sludge Bomb, Energy Ball and Seed Bomb respectively.

I'm thinking about what to do with variable-power moves. Right now, I'd just need moves that deal a constant amount of damage. Oh, and if a Pokemon learns both Tackle and Return, say, you don't need to list Tackle of course. Also, don't mind accuracy.

EDIT: I need this information only for the fully evolved Pokemon, not for all of them.

[gorm]

very cool idea and i like the method you chose! It's like they're math battling x)

how high would tyranitar rank if sdef boost was taken into account?

[RBG*]

Just so i can get this straight, this is basically how good the pokemon base stats are, provided they have no abilites, no types, and identical movesets?

[el_B]

'good' as in how many other Base Stat-distributions can this Baste Stat-distribution beat one on one, ignoring types, moves (Fixed 135 BP move for all), traits, items, etc.

[Strype McClaine]

As always with X-act's work It feels not just like getting a Masters’ class in Pokémon, but in general game theory.

You know that headache that you get after you read it, you’re stunned for a moment, you take a drink, and it all makes since.

By the end of the year, X-act’s work along with the Co-Authored stuff by Peterko should be compiled into pseudo book format (e-book) and presented like a textbook.

As always, Godlike work, like makeing love with numbers.