CAP Server Mini-Tournament Rules Workshop

[Aki]

Your kind consideration makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

On a more serious note, the official tourneys already have a ban on scouting. Why can't we have the same?

Originally Posted by Fat Tourney rules; Aeolus

A "no scouting" rule has been added as a blanket rule in all tournaments. (effective immediately- not retroactively)

[tennisace]

to make you feel even warmer and fuzzier, ill get mag to help too, and any other mod thats on at the time. and scouting is just wrong, for reasons that stall has already mentioned. so the blue team pledges its full support in keeping these tourniments fair. if ANYONE is caught scouting, it will be an automatic one day ban, and no tourniments for a week.

[Aki]

Thank you.

I'm going to bed now. Make sure to make the scouting rule clear to eric.

[eric the espeon]

Originally Posted by Fat TM

Say you see they have a Heatran. And when you fight them they lead with a Roserade and you with an Azelf. Are you going to Flamethrower Roserade? I don't think so, because that's the obvious move, and a perfect opportunity for Heatran to come in with a boost.

ok, but the player with Heatran will know that their oponent saw the Hertran and can act acordingly.

the official tourneys already have a ban on scouting. Why can't we have the same?

Scouting on big tourneys is VERY different, each battle is much more importaint and the scouter will often see the whole team. With mini tourneys its just about the fun, i dont thik they are very compreable. also if you are worryed about someone seeing your team you can switch teams for the next battle, or ask your opponent to leave.

What i think is that scouting is different from just keeping an eye on who you need to face next and watching a good battle, if people start takeing note on their possible oponents that would be unfair, but if they want to do something whilie they wait for the next battle i think watching is better then startiong a new battle which leads to delays.

if ANYONE is caught scouting, it will be an automatic one day ban, and no tourniments for a week.

no no no no i do not want anyone banned for watching a battle. if someone askes their oponent to leave and they refuse kick them, but dont ban for it please.

Make sure to make the scouting rule clear to eric.

OK since the weight of opionion is against me i will add a rule, but i do not want it to be harsh.
how about:
While you are permited to watch battles of other people in the tournamant, if a player askes you to leave (on grounds that you may face them later in the tourney and gain some advantage by seeing his/her team) you must leave, refuseing to do so or takeing notes on oponents players teams is banned and will result in a week ban from all mini tourneys and a deduction of 3 points.


i asked some people in a tourney what they thought and they said

No, i don't think it should be banned, it can be quite fun, but the battlers should be allowed to kick someone if they don't want them watching.

nah

NO

i asked only 3 people, i will ask everyone else.

I also would like to add something saying that TO's may chose whatever rules they like e,g Ubers, Mono type, Random Battle, Little Cup, NU (within reason, no totaly stupid rules) and they tourneys will be counted in the scoreboard.

[Time Mage]

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

ok, but the player with Heatran will know that their oponent saw the Hertran and can act acordingly.

Yet you only know one of their pokémon, the starter, and he knows two. That kind of information only works if both have the same amount of knowledge on the opponents team. Also, not only they know the pokémon, but also which version is: If the Heatran outsped a Dugtrio, it was scarftran, if it dealt around 50% damage to Blissey with Fire Blast, it was a Flash Fire boosted Specstran, etc.

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

Scouting on big tourneys is VERY different, each battle is much more importaint and the scouter will often see the whole team. With mini tourneys its just about the fun, i dont thik they are very compreable.

Then, if they are for the fun, no need to store the records, don't you think?




Also, if finally the "no scouting" rule is enforced (as it should be), I'll help watching for scouting when I'm online, since I rarely participate in tournaments.

[eric the espeon]

Yet you only know one of their pokémon, the starter, and he knows two. That kind of information only works if both have the same amount of knowledge on the opponents team. Also, not only they know the pokémon, but also which version is: If the Heatran outsped a Dugtrio, it was scarftran, if it dealt around 50% damage to Blissey with Fire Blast, it was a Flash Fire boosted Specstran, etc

that is true, you do get a small advantage, but MT's are not overly competive.

Then, if they are for the fun, no need to store the records, don't you think?

this is true ther is no "need to" and for a long time we did not but i think it would be interesting to try.

Also, if finally the "no scouting" rule is enforced (as it should be), I'll help watching for scouting when I'm online, since I rarely participate in tournaments.

if it is (and i hope its not) that would be helpful.

[eric the espeon]

I am leaveing on Sunday so i want this thing to be up and runing by then if it is not i will put this in:
While you are permited to watch battles of other people in the tournamant, if a player askes you to leave (on grounds that you may face them later in the tourney and gain some advantage by seeing his/her team) you must leave, refuseing to do will result in a week ban from all mini tourneys.

Even though the view here is almost totaly that the rule should be stronger (total ban on watching oponents games) those who play in the tourneys have a very diferent opinion, I may revise it if you can convince them but I dont think the spirit of MT's is the same as that of normal ones so for now I will not impose any blanket ban.

I do not want anyone banned or kicked for watching matches unless their oponent askes them to leave AND they refuse.

and bump

[Stall]

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

I am leaveing on Sunday so i want this thing to be up and runing by then if it is not i will put this in:
While you are permited to watch battles of other people in the tournamant, if a player askes you to leave (on grounds that you may face them later in the tourney and gain some advantage by seeing his/her team) you must leave, refuseing to do will result in a week ban from all mini tourneys.

Even though the view here is almost totaly that the rule should be stronger (total ban on watching oponents games) those who play in the tourneys have a very diferent opinion, I may revise it if you can convince them but I dont think the spirit of MT's is the same as that of normal ones so for now I will not impose any blanket ban.

I do not want anyone banned or kicked for watching matches unless their oponent askes them to leave AND they refuse.

and bump

You may say that our view differs from that of the tourney entrants. I am avoiding the CaP server the rules are at least somewhat sensical. I will not set foot in the server for a tourney until any player entering my tourney battle is IMMEDIATELY DQ'd from the tourney.

[eric the espeon]

do you understand that this rulebook is only for 4 and 8 player mini tourneys? its not the whole server just a small part, there is no reason to avoid the whole thing.

Anyway on to the real issue as you have not been very active in mini tourneys (correct me if I am wrong) I must take the views of the particepants above those who have not been in many mini tourneys, as it will be them not you who must use the rules. If i get more more active particepents asking for a total ban i will impose one.

A comprimise would be adding this to the rule:
If you dont want oponents to watch your match please post this in the main chat, if you break this rule by acsident (dont see the message in the main chat) you will get a warning. 2 warnings in the space of 3 days and you will be banned from mini tourneys for a week.

Also i have added a Self-KO Clause to the rules.
I will now edit in the type specific and region specific tourneys into the scores as there have been no objections.

[Stall]

Originally Posted by Fat Stall

You may say that our view differs from that of the tourney entrants. I am avoiding the CaP server the rules are at least somewhat sensical. I will not set foot in the server for a tourney until any player entering my tourney battle is IMMEDIATELY DQ'd from the tourney.

My view should be counted as that of an active participant, since I would be one if the rules were not dumb.

[eric the espeon]

My view should be counted as that of an active participant, since I would be one if the rules were not dumb.

can you just post to tell people that you dont want people watching your battle? If you say that it should be the other way round and they should post to say that people can i will say they are the majority so you should post.

I will count you as an active participent only if you are, or if you where, and active participent. Try a few with the rule as it is, if you still hold the same opinion I will take your view much more seriously. Mini tourneys are not the same as normal tourneys so you cant just transfer rules.

[Super T]

yay i got the lead as of now :)

[darkie]

If anything, a player can ask both players in a match if he/she can watch the battle. Otherwise, he/she shouldn't be able to see other matches.

[eric the espeon]

how about this:
While you are permited to watch battles of other people in the tournamant, if a player askes you to leave (on grounds that you may face them later in the tourney and gain some advantage by seeing his/her team) you must leave, refuseing to do will result in a week ban from all mini tourneys.
If you dont want oponents to watch your match please post this in the main chat, if you break this rule by acsident (dont see the message in the main chat) you will get a warning. 2 warnings in the space of 3 days and you will be banned from mini tourneys for a week.
It is advised that you ask your oponents before watching their battle as they may have asked that no-one should watch while you where not looking.

[Aki]

You...You battle watcher, you! =p

That dosent work because what it one person wants to be watched while the other dosent?

Simpler to stick with No Scouting. Eric, you're campaigning a losing battle.

[Stall]

I will not play in a tournament with dumb rules for the sake of having you respect my opinion. I said it before, but I'll repeat it here. I will only join a tournament when I am assured that any player entering my battle is immediately DQ'd from the tournament.

[latinoheat]

just about every single tournament worth anything has had a no scouting rule, why should this be any different.

[eric the espeon]

You...You battle watcher, you! =p

That dosent work because what it one person wants to be watched while the other dosent?
then dont watch, only watch if both say yes.
Simpler to stick with No Scouting. Eric, you're campaigning a losing battle.
Maybe here, but on the server everyone i have showed that rule to (exept you) has agreed it is fair, or too harsh.

I will not play in a tournament with dumb rules for the sake of having you respect my opinion. I said it before, but I'll repeat it here. I will only join a tournament when I am assured that any player entering my battle is immediately DQ'd from the tournament.

look if you post you dont want people watching your matches thats fine.

just about every single tournament worth anything has had a no scouting rule, why should this be any different.

because it IS different, mini tourneys are not like the big ones, its not scouting when you watch an oponents match its keeping an eye on who you need to face next and watching a battle.

Look i would like to explain something to all the people who have posted asking for a No watching oponents battles rule, most of you have not joined mini tourneys and those who have almost all (with the exeption of Aki) have told me that they would like to be able to watch oponents battles and dont ind others watching theres. Many of them do not have smogon accounts or dont use them and so have not posted, i feel trapped between you two groups. On one hand i respect that smogon knows alot about competive battleing, but the thing is the mini tourneys are not overly competive. I feel i must do as the participents want even if it looks like I am going against popular opinion if you just read this therad. If you want to argue your case further try talking to a few of those on the leaderboard.

[Aki]

It's not called the "No battle watching rule", it's called the "No scouting rule".
Taking you back to our original reasons, this is because one may gain an unfair advantage because he watched another battle and saw the opponents team.

Don't bring up any shit about changing teams. If we had to make a team each round for the sake of fairness, that'd just be shit.

Why are you so intent on watching the battles anyway?

[tennisace]

eric, im going to have to agree with everyone else itt. scouting opens a huge can of worms, and the best thing to do is just avoid it all together with tourniment bans to frequent offenders. its the only way to appease the masses. besides, look at it from the players perspective. how would you like it if you lost because your opponent knew your team? you wouldnt. im not trying to undermine your authority in any way, but in any tourniment i host, there will be a strict no-scouting rule, and i will enforce it.

[eric the espeon]

It's not called the "No battle watching rule", it's called the "No scouting rule".
In effect it is a No Watching oponents battles rule.
Taking you back to our original reasons, this is because one may gain an unfair advantage because he watched another battle and saw the opponents team.

Don't bring up any shit about changing teams. If we had to make a team each round for the sake of fairness, that'd just be shit.
you dont need to make a new one, you can just use a diferent one. Unless you only have 1 team.
Why are you so intent on watching the battles anyway?
because its what the people on the server tell me.

eric, im going to have to agree with everyone else itt. scouting opens a huge can of worms, and the best thing to do is just avoid it all together with tourniment bans to frequent offenders. its the only way to appease the masses. besides, look at it from the players perspective. how would you like it if you lost because your opponent knew your team? you wouldnt. im not trying to undermine your authority in any way, but in any tourniment i host, there will be a strict no-scouting rule, and i will enforce it.

i dont see whats wrong with alowing people to watch matches UNLESS their oponents asks people not to join their battle, those who are consernd about people seeing part of their team can simply ask for their oponent not to watch. those who watch anyway will be warned then banned.

I am leaveing today so i will post this thread today, however i think this thread should remain open as people still have disagreements about this rule.

[Time Mage]

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

i dont see whats wrong with alowing people to watch matches UNLESS their oponents asks people not to join their battle, those who are consernd about people seeing part of their team can simply ask for their oponent not to watch. those who watch anyway will be warned then banned.

I'll tell you what is wrong with your approach: The vast majority of the competitive players want a "No scouting" rule. Not only that, but also that rule has been a DEFAULT rule for all the tournaments held in this website.

Consider that it's easier to default the "No scouting" rule, and then add something like "If you don't care about people watching your match, specify it". Because I guarantee that the vast majority of the participants in the mini-tournaments will ask for no scouting if you keep the rules as you want. So, banning scouting unless otherwise specified by the players prevents a lot of needless text in the main chat, as well as providing a more standard and accepted approach to the tournaments.

[Stall]

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

i dont see whats wrong with alowing people to watch matches UNLESS their oponents asks people not to join their battle, those who are consernd about people seeing part of their team can simply ask for their oponent not to watch. those who watch anyway will be warned then banned.

I am leaveing today so i will post this thread today, however i think this thread should remain open as people still have disagreements about this rule.

SO EVEN IF I ASK THEM NOT TO, THEY STILL WON'T GET DQ'd FOR WATCHING MY BATTLE?



Whatever. No offense to you personally, but this whole thing is a complete joke and I will not waste my time on a server that doesn't understand the obvious problems with scouting. Have fun with your "fun" Mini Tourneys, but keep in mind I will have a very hard time taking the CaP project seriously until things change.

[DougJustDoug**]

I suggest we settle this with a simple poll.

If there are people on the server that don't have Smogon accounts, then that's too bad. The server is an extension of this project, not vice versa. The fact that we have Shoddy players that frequent our server without participating in the project is fine, but we are not going to cater to their opinions here. If they want to weigh in on this subject, they need to get an account and vote.

A straight two-choice poll should suffice. One option should be the option presented by eric here. The second option is a direct copy of the scouting rule implemented by other Smogon tournaments. Does anyone have a problem with a poll?

[Stall]

A poll would be fantastic.