The Real New OU List

[Shiven]

The thing is, though, even with some boosts, Thunderbolt doesn't OHKO as much as you would want a sweeper to. It just seems like you're jumping the gun with the Jolteon thing. The guy has an opinion, no need to go psycho about it.

[RaikouLover]

still, pokemon are OU for a reason, so I find no reason to say that ANY of them are "weak" or bad at what they do, because they are the most used....

[Havak]

I'm glad people are finally starting to use Snorlax again, everything said about it not being as threatening is completely wrong IMO. It will still dominate like it did in past gens, wait and see. xD

[The Requiem]

I still stand by if what you want isnt OU, use it. lol. Now for the nitpicking.

This statement in itself is wrong, unless we have different definitions of "strength". Heracross possesses the same strength as Pinsir? Infernape is as strong as Blaziken? Flygon compares to Garchomp?

While there is no fixed BL metagame, the BL Tier can be divided into two categories : Those pokemon who are just barely too strong for UU, thus making it an UU banlist, and those who are clearly too strong for UU but just short of achieving OU power. This in itself is the reason for the huge discrepancies existing in the BL Tier.

What part of that whole usage discussion dont you understand?

While there's no arguing with the logic of your first sentences there, the bolded one I disagree with - something can be used fairly often and be relatively weak.

Incidentally, Jolteon appears as 38th on the weighted usage statistics for the sole reason that it makes a decent lead and an alternative to the 10 completely broken leads in the metagame - it simply is too weak to play any other role well, and EVEN in the "lead pokemon" department (it's speciality, so to speak), it is outclassed by at least a dozen other pokemon.

Also, by definition, Deoxys-E and Wobbuffet came down from a superior metagame, Ubers, so you'd think they'd be in the top 10 most used pokemon right away - they make a measly 45th and 47th. Snorlax is 21st.

The reason Jolty cant play other roles isnt at all because its weak, its because its movepool consits of its standard set and a small selection of crap moves like Pin Missile. Also, You WOULD think that Wobby and Deoxys would get a shitton of usage, but the reason the abuse is small and sketch is because our tierlist has them in limbo. If we slapped them in OU just like shoddy did then they probably would be abused all over the place. Wobby at least, Deoxys-S is worthless IMO.

The difference being that in terms of STRENGTH, Weezing's typing, ability and stats make it unique and not directly outclassed by any other OU pokemon - while Jolteon has the ability to a) batton pass substitutes or speed or b) fire off hidden powers and her 2 other special moves - she is outclassed in both roles by other OU pokemon (Ninjask and any top special sweeper, respectively).

As you say, generally there is a correlation between usage and power, but there are exceptions. Dragonite, for instance, has some incredibly powerful options available to it, yet it just barely makes OU nowadays in terms of usage - because it is totally outclassed by 2 superior (more powerful) pokemon.

Again, what part of that whole usage discussion dont you understand? If you want Weezing to be OU so bad, use it. It's been said repeatedly in the joke thread, there's absolutely no drawback to being in a lower tier, if a pokemon is sitting in the BL tier, its basically a OU pokemon with not as much notariety. I dont get what the criping is about.

Oh well, Electrivire's still on the list so clearly it's not perfect. ><

Oh well, people are still using it. I guess your opinion doesn't match the masses.

[/end nitpicks]

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fat Me

I like the new list, and the way things are done to see who gets to be OU or not. My question is now that there is a solid method for determining usage, how often is the tierlist going to be changed up?

[X-Act]

The OU list depends so much only on usage that a person that barely plays Pokemon (me) can update it accurately!

[the_artic_one]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

not everything has to all out sweep like lucario and garchomp. Most things not named Blissey, Snorlax, and Regice cannot take two specs T-bolts unless they resist it... period.

EDIT: Thank you Gorm.

Specs jolt + rain + thunder = sweep

[Invective]

Originally Posted by Fat the_artic_one

Specs jolt + rain + thunder = send out hippowdon/ any ground

the bolded part is what a decent battler should do. otherwise, yeah, theyre boned.

the new list seems to include some odd choices that i wouldnt consider OU, but i dont see why people are bitching about ______ not being OU. you can still use it in OU
if you want. it just means other people arent using it as often. its as if people think that when something is demoted to BL, they lose 20 points from each base stat or something.

[Mekkah**]

I wasn't aware giving a free turn to Garchomp or any Ground for that matter equaled sweep? If you're using Jolteon, make use of Baton Pass.

[the_artic_one]

Originally Posted by Fat kusaninja

the bolded part is what a decent battler should do. otherwise, yeah, theyre boned.

the new list seems to include some odd choices that i wouldnt consider OU, but seeing as how i dont even come close to comprehending the algoreithm, ill just nod my head and say "uh, yeah i get." just like in math class.

And somone attempting to sweep with a choice user should make sure that it's counters are dead before attempting the sweep.

[freshkicks]

Poor Mekkah got infracted to the point he could be banned for posts in the april fools thread =[ its all fun and games until someone gets banned

Also

The tier lists don't say how much usage things should get, only how much they will get.

X-Act you should be like the guy on numbers and use maths to stop crimes, predict murders or something. That would be hectic.

This new list is good looks fairly accurate judging from what I've seen

[Invective]

yeah, that makes sense. ive been out thunk.

anyways, onto discussion about smoethingother than jolteon.

well, i was gonig over the list and made an observation. as far as i could tell, there was only one pure special attacker. two if you count yanmega, but he could be counted as support since most of the time, they will sleep first and sweep after. but other than those two, all other special attackers have other jobs they can fulfill other than sweeping.
azelf and gengar can both take out blissey with a well timed explosion, and gengar can support the team with hypnosis, or sacrifice itself with a destiny bond.
heatran, and suicune both have common roles as status absorbers, and suicune can phaze in the process (hopefully).
both infernape and lucario can go mixed, or choiced.
togekiss, who can provide para support, NP boosts, or flinchaxing.
i noticed that of the two pure special attackers, only one of them has a chance of beating bliss 1 on 1 (specs adaptability hyper beam ftw).
all others either had to go mixed, run explosion, or just run away when confronted by bliss. this is just an obsrvation i made though, so discuss, or ignore, i couldnt care less.
also while typing it up, i started wondering whether tenta usage will drop with the loss of roserade and the stall craze wearing off.

[wDro]

Originally Posted by Fat freshkicks

Poor Mekkah got infracted to the point he could be banned for posts in the april fools thread =[ its all fun and games until someone gets banned

sarcasm? if not, just to let you know it was obviously part of the joke too...

[SHUCKLE MAN]

^I thought Mekkah "Could've been banned!" before the thread even started.

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Cool. I was able to reproduce the list (once I remembered that Deoxys-S and Wobbuffet were in Limbo). I have no problems with it.


EDIT: On a side note, looking through all of the usages, the only non-Uber Pokemon that has not been used in Ladder Play is Loudred. Poor Loudred...

[Semicolon cancer]

Haha, good joke, and now I really feel like an idiot. I'm glad to see Gallade up there, and umbreon out of there.

[gorm]

Originally Posted by Fat CardsOfTheHeart

Cool. I was able to reproduce the list (once I remembered that Deoxys-S and Wobbuffet were in Limbo). I have no problems with it.


EDIT: On a side note, looking through all of the usages, the only non-Uber Pokemon that has not been used in Ladder Play is Loudred. Poor Loudred...

how on earth did you determine such a thing o_o

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Originally Posted by Fat Gormenghast

how on earth did you determine such a thing o_o

I compiled the Shoddy usage statistics in an Excel spreadsheet. God that took forever... @_@

[Evil Hamster]

I'm still confused as to why Ninjask is still OU :( It's completely shut down by any kind of phazer, extremely niche in terms of useability, and everyone has an answer to it. Sure, it can pull off a successful Baton Pass if you give it an Ingrain passing smeargle and a spinner to support it, or just pass to a Cradily/Octillery or something, but anything can be useable with the right amount of support.

[CardsOfTheHeart]

As long as players continue to use Ninjask, it will continue to be OU.

Why players continue to use Ninjask is another matter probably better suited for a separate thread.

[Kira]

For those that don't understand why we base on usage:

The usage of a pokemon usually is a good indication of it's power. For example, nobody really uses Flygon anymore, because Garchomp outclasses it. Now people want to win the game. Naturally they will use the stronger option. So if all those Flygon users switch to Garchomp then naturally Garhcomp will become OVERUSED.

He would not be OU if it weren't for his power/movepool/etc...


That is just one of many examples.

[Lou Cypher]

I'd like to note a big "JOG OFF" (Hot Fuzz Reference, if you don't get it, JOG OFF) to those who claim Kingdra is useless without the rain. Those persons never tried a DDancing set with added Draco Meteor, or a Specs Sniper set. Fireworks people, fireworks.

But yeah, pretty obvious OU list. But maybe I should whore out Gardevoir a bit more >.<

[X-Act]

I'm glad most people are saying that this OU list is obvious... it means that the prediction function works fine. :)

[Lyfsaho]

Originally Posted by Fat Kira

The usage of a pokemon usually is a good indication of it's power. For example, nobody really uses Flygon anymore, because Garchomp outclasses it. Now people want to win the game. Naturally they will use the stronger option. So if all those Flygon users switch to Garchomp then naturally Garhcomp will become OVERUSED.

Key word is usually. There are always exceptions to rules.

For instance, would you say Donphan (42nd) is a better physical wall than Tangrowth (66th) or Slowbro (65th)? Both of those have access to status afflicting moves, an instant recovery move, vital physical resistances, and decent offensive capabilities to boost, while donphan's advantages lie in Rapid Spin, SR and a rock resistance.

Similarly, are Aerodactyl (53rd) and Ambipom (61st) so much better than Staraptor (71st) or Azumarill (73rd)? Is Jolteon (38th) a better batton passer than Ninjask (44th) or a better special sweeper than Raikou (69th)?

We go by statistics because it is clearly a) the easiest and most reliable way and b) relatively non-biased and factual. Nevertheless, every system has its flaws.

Originally Posted by Fat X-Act

I'm glad most people are saying that this OU list is obvious... it means that the prediction function works fine. :)

everyone's glad to see Arcanine go ;). Its actually well done, the only surprise for me was to see Weezing go and maybe Gallade get in. ^^

[gorm]

one thing that worries me about making an algorhythm that treats usage patterns as smooth functions is that it can't really account for oddities like obi posting a tenta team, bologo hyping shaymin and ipl adding zapdos to his stall team.

however one aspect that really interests me is mapping one poke's usage vs another, where the one poke being more present would drive the other's usage down (for example, celebi and breloom, bronzong and mammoswine) to refine predictions on a whole.

not sure if this is a consideration at all but it sounds interesting to me, since potentially it could also be expanded to groups of pokes (bulky waters vs heatran or something)

i dunno how ambiguous this post is ah

We go by statistics because it is clearly a) the easiest and most reliable way and b) relatively non-biased and factual. Nevertheless, every system has its flaws.

the opinion of the collective battlers on shoddy determines the tiers, not your theorymon. I'm not saying i disagree with your points (i think donphan is garbage this gen) but we are not going to base the tiers on theorymon when you have cold hard stats provided by colin.

if you want to prove your point, start using tangrowth or something. seriously im getting tired of you disagreeing with the stats. They're there, and they're the exact definition of what we should be basing OU vs UU on.

[Invective]

Originally Posted by Fat Lyfsaho

Key word is usually. There are always exceptions to rules.

assuming this is true, then shouldnt there be an exception to the rule that there is always an exception to a rule?
sorry, just arguing semantics.
its fucking 4 thirty where i live, just drank a bottle and a half of energy drink cuz i thought a history paper would take longer than it did, but i was wrong, and now im wide awake.