Shaymin Testing

[Stellar]

I don't see a reason for delay. Any "settling" that needs to be done can just happen during the testing period in the "Suspect Metagame". The metagame will evolve differently in the Suspect ladder and that is sorta the point of the test. We don't really have time to wait when there are other things we need testing.

Pretty much agreeing with Gorm and Aldaron.

[Jumpman16**]

Originally Posted by Fat Aeolus

Further, by starting the test as soon as possible we prevent strong voting biases from forming. If we let the game sit for another month, people will get themselves entrenched into an "yes/no" opinion before really having a chance to collect the adequate information and experience necessary to come to a decision. We saw this phenomenon with Garchomp. Many people had already made up their minds how they were going to vote before the testing had even started... they simply jumped through the hoops to get voting status and were never swayed by the actual experience. This is avoided by adding the test ladder now.

isn't this another way of saying that an actual suspect test of DX-S has no meaning because people will already have made up their minds on it since it's been in standard since February?

i understand and agree with what you're saying about biases being formed about skymin, but i think it's too late for those who have already played who are the kinds of people who are going to form biases anyway to not have done so already. further, if you're right about biases, we can save a shitload of time by just declaring DX-S "OU" as far as a Stage 2 assessment is concerned, since that was the general consensus after many months in the metagame. (we'll retest everything with their appropriate labels in Stage 3, as planned)

we do indeed need to be testing something right now, but I'm not sure if it's Skymin, and if it is, for the reasons you stated, I'm not sure we actually therefore need to retest DX-S

[matty]

I have an alternate proposition that might compensate for both sides.

Since most people do agree that Deoxy-S is suspect at this point in time, why don't we just begin testing on him for the time being? While testing goes on with Deo-S, the standard metagame that everyone keeps talking about (with Shaymin) will settle out after about a month. All the Scizor, Shaymin, Heatran, Salamence, filler, filler teams will hopefully disappear or be reduced as well. If it hasn't settled out by then, we move onto another suspect test subject and give Shaymin and the rest of Platinum another month to settle. The benefit I see from this is that testing on suspect stuff keeps moving forward (which should be one of our goals) and the others that are calling for a settling of the metagame can then rest easy as Shaymin won't be voted on until a month or two after Deo-S.

@Jump: I still think people have a problem with Deo-S and I have heard on many occasions in Shoddy chat for a call of "Ubers". Granted a lot of those people aren't going to make the voting requirements, but I still think that we need to test it to finally make sure that is suitable for OU. (Even regardless of the vote that already happened; remember, the Dual Screen Deo-S wasn't in circulation at the point of that vote which I think pushes it over the top).

[twash]

Originally Posted by Fat matty

I have an alternate proposition that might compensate for both sides.

Since most people do agree that Deoxy-S is suspect at this point in time, why don't we just begin testing on him for the time being? While testing goes on with Deo-S, the standard metagame that everyone keeps talking about (wiht Shaymin) will settle out after about a month. All the Scizor, Shaymin, Heatran, Salamence, filler, filler teams will hopefully disappear or be reduced as well. If it hasn't settled out by then, we move onto another suspect test subject and give Shaymin and the rest of Platinum another month to settle. The benefit I see from this is that testing on suspect stuff keeps moving forward (which should be one of our goals) and the others that are calling for a settling of the metagame can then rest easy as Shaymin won't be voted on until a month or two after Deo-S.

@Jump: I still think people have a problem with Deo-S and I have heard on many occasions in Shoddy chat for a call of "Ubers". Granted a lot of those people aren't going to make the voting requirements, but I still think that we need to test it to finally make sure that is suitable for OU.

Yeah, exactly what I think. Do Deoxys-S, then after that do Shaymin-S, it should be enough time (imo), to then have say, a month or two of testing Shaymin-S, and then vote.

[Colonel M]

While I disagree, I also have to give into this proposition for only one reason: Deoxys-S was out in OU first and we have more experience. But I'm afraid with the addition of Bullet Punch Scizor and Rotom we ight see a few things different and such.

On the other hand, if we do the Shaymin-S testing two months seems more than enough time to find it's potential still in the Standard ladder and find what it's like without it. I guess this means I have to work twice as hard for creating a good team.

[Hipmonlee]

I also would like to see Deoxys tested before Shaymin.

There seems to be a lot of hype surrounding shaymin atm that hopefully will die down a bit at some point.

Have a nice day.

[Venom]

Pretty much on the same boat as Hipmonlee.

[Maniaclyrasist]

Originally Posted by Fat matty

While testing goes on with Deo-S, the standard metagame that everyone keeps talking about (with Shaymin) will settle out after about a month. All the Scizor, Shaymin, Heatran, Salamence, filler, filler teams will hopefully disappear or be reduced as well. If it hasn't settled out by then, we move onto another suspect test subject and give Shaymin and the rest of Platinum another month to settle.

All of this would just be a waste of time. As I stated before even our D/P metagame wasn't entirely settled, why do you think this Platinum one will be settled in a 2-3 months...

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

f you're right about biases, we can save a shitload of time by just declaring DX-S "OU" as far as a Stage 2 assessment is concerned, since that was the general consensus after many months in the metagame. (we'll retest everything with their appropriate labels in Stage 3, as planned)

I agree with this completely. Sure we can always retest it but it's been in OU for months and after the vote took place it was allowed to remain OU, I don't see why we should go about testing this a second time when we can just move on to other suspects and re-test it when Stage 3 comes around.

[maddog]

I think "retesting" (if you can even call it that) Deoxys-S would be the best path to take. DX-S was always a huge threat, and should be considered a suspect, even in D/P. But, the changes that it got in Platinum (such as Trick) makes Deoxys-S more of a suspect, not less. We shouldn't ignore it, espically because we never went through the process we did with Garchomp with it.

[matty]

Originally Posted by Fat Maniaclyrasist

All of this would just be a waste of time. As I stated before even our D/P metagame wasn't entirely settled, why do you think this Platinum one will be settled in a 2-3 months...

Maybe not, but it sure is a better alternative (in my mind) than testing the thing right now before we do in fact have some idea how Platinum shakes out. Currently, the proposed plan is to test Shaymin for 1-2 months without any idea what is going to change. If we give it two months max while we test other suspects (not Deo-S per se if that makes you happier) then we can see how everything has relatively settled down. If two months isn't adaquate (like what you think) then we move onto other things to be tested. This process can be repeated as many times as necessary until the metagame "settles". I'm not sure why Shaymin HAS to be tested at this stage of the game; I see no harm in letting it sit awhile and tackle other suspects on our list.

[Aeolus]

Testing dx-s first isn't a good move and we aren't going to do that for a couple of reasons.

1) Voting Bias - The voting bias (that we want to avoid, which I already described at length in a previous post) would, once again, be allowed to infiltrate our decision making process on Shaymin if we delay. Nothing in lost in this particular area by waiting to test dx-s... those biases are already there. Many people have already made up their mind on dx-s... so waiting a few months for that test does no damage. Waiting on Shaymin has a rather high cost in this area.

2) Interaction between dx-s and Shaymin - The relationship between the two Pokemon themselves makes it more advantageous to test Shaymin first. Consider the fact that dx-s functions as something of a counter to Shaymin in that the latter poke will usually switch out if the former comes in. The reverse is less true... Shaymin does not force dx-s to switch in most situations. This relationship functions as a check on Shaymin. If we test dx-s first, and find that he must be removed... that check is eliminated and Shaymin gets that much more of a power boost... which could lead to its eventual banning that may otherwise have been avoided. Now, if we find that Shaymin works great with dx-s present... and we subsequently ban dx-s and that changes the situation enough that we need to revisit Shaymin... fine. This is a more careful approach than testing dx-s first.

Nobody has presented a compelling reason to test dx-s first besides, "we've had it longer." I'd ask you people to attempt to have just a bit of foresight and look 2 months into the future. In two months, Shaymin will not be "new" as it is now. It will be fully understood by the people who will have met the voting requirements at that time. Novelty and newness fade fast on the internet and nobody seems to realize this. As soon as one person innovates, the universe of competitive players can copy without difficulty. The spread of knowledge is so rapid and viral that all these concerns about unfamiliarity will have evaporated into NOTHING in 8 weeks time.

[Fishin]

If we do decide to do 2 months of testing, I'd support testing Shaymin first since like Aeolus said, the relation between them means that it's best to test Skymin while D-S is still usable in standard.

[JabbaTheGriffin*]

I really think people don't understand how long 2 months is. Also this isn't like we introduced an entire new set of pokemon into the game. The changes aren't really too gamebreaking. We don't need to let things "settle." The metagame is never settled, it's constantly changing. We need to stop moving at such a slow pace. 2 months is more than sufficient to get this test done. Hell I personally think 1 month is more than enough, but obviously most people don't share that view.

[jrrrrrrr]

Yeah, I agree with Jabba. Two months is a really long time when you consider that *not much* has changed in the game. The intro of Skymin, Bullet Punch Scizor etc are just minor hiccups in the constantly flowing metagame. It's not like we were expecting it to be stable only a year or so in...

One month should be much more than adequate to determine Skymin's status. Personally, I've found it to be quite underwhelming. I think that everyone is overestimating the changes that Platinum brought to the game and underestimating how long 2 months is. We need to stay above all of this senseless hype and actually stay focused on acheiving our goals of testing everything within a lifetime.

[Maniaclyrasist]

Originally Posted by Fat Aeolus

I'd ask you people to attempt to have just a bit of foresight and look 2 months into the future. In two months, Shaymin will not be "new" as it is now. It will be fully understood by the people who will have met the voting requirements at that time. Novelty and newness fade fast on the internet and nobody seems to realize this. As soon as one person innovates, the universe of competitive players can copy without difficulty. The spread of knowledge is so rapid and viral that all these concerns about unfamiliarity will have evaporated into NOTHING in 8 weeks time.

Everything you've said here can also be applied to one month. It is not going to take 8 weeks for the players that will be voting to fully understand Shaymin-S. The extra month just seems entirely unecessary.

[Aeolus]

Personally, I'm okay with 1 month. I said 2 months because of "public relations" considerations and to generate buy-in from the Smogon staff. The length of the test is a point I'm will to compromise on while the testing order isn't. If giving some extra time there can make people feel comfortable with starting the test now, then rock 'n roll.

[Earthworm]

I support making the testing period 1 month and "re"testing Deoxys-S (preferrably immediately) afterwards.

[Hipmonlee]

What is the compelling reason to test Shaymin first?

It seems to me that the fact that we have had it longer is a pretty logical reason to do this, especially since you are talking about having a 2 month testing period because of this fact. Have two one month testing periods and we are more consistant, and we do twice as much testing in the same amount of time.

I think that we should test Deoxys first because Deoxys is the more broken of the two.

Also the point of interplay between Deoxys and Shaymin is kinda weak in my opinion as Shaymin is one of the few pokemon that with a Scarf can outspeed Deoxys, and it does 84.3% min to min SDef 1hp Deoxys with Seed Flare (which basically means it will always KO in any reasonable situation).

Now, if we find that Shaymin works great with dx-s present... and we subsequently ban dx-s and that changes the situation enough that we need to revisit Shaymin... fine. This is a more careful approach than testing dx-s first.

This doesnt really make sense to me, it seems like it adds in an unnecessary step. If we find Deoxys is Uber, then I dont see how the fact that it counters Shaymin makes it any less Uber. So by testing that first, we can test Shaymin without having to repeat the process. What is careless about this approach? Though to be fair this is totally irellevant, since Shaymin can counter Deoxys anyway.

Furthermore we have some concept of life with Deoxys but without Shaymin, but if we test Shaymin first then we will have no idea of the opposite.

Honestly I really feel testing Shaymin first is a bad idea.

And as for the voting bias I think this is not a reasonable way of doing this. It is like saying people cant have as much information as possible before casting their votes because doing so might help them make a decision. If you dont trust people to not be biased, then you shouldnt let them vote.

I dont see how it makes a difference anyway. The only reason you got involved in the last vote was because you were sick of battling Garchomps. I know I had some preconceived notions before the test, but I also didnt witness anything that was contrary to those notions. I think ultimately if we have a vote we have to trust people to vote properly.

Also, why is it so obvious that peoples arbitrary biases will increase over time? It seems counter-intuitive to me. It also seems unlikely that peoples biases start after the initial introduction of a pokemon, unless they are actually based on some kind of experience. I dont see people becoming biased based on irellevant nonsense within the month it will take us to test Deoxys. I do see a lot of ridiculous hype and novelty value decreasing which suggests to me that the Shaymin vote should take place after the Deoxys vote.

Have a nice day.

[twash]

Aeolus ran a vote on Shoddybattle just a minute ago, "Who do you want to see become a suspect first: Deoxys-S or "Skymin"?".

Skymin was voted, pretty overwhelmingly. Probably because of the fact that more people seem to want Skymin Uber than Deoxys-S, and therefore want it tested quickly it seems. There have been quite a few complaints about how Skymin needs to go to Uber straight away, so I suppose it does make a lot more sense to do Skymin before Deoxys-S.

:)

[Aeolus]

I think that we should test Deoxys first because Deoxys is the more broken of the two.

This is the only point of your post Hip that would sway me to test dx-s first. In the long-run, everything else fades in importance because both Pokemon are going to be tested anyway.

It seems, however, that you are in the minority with your view that dx-s is the more broken of the two. It has existed in the OU metagame for several months now... and was even voted to stay there in a formal process lead by Jumpman16. The vast majority if people who are actively playing want Shaymin tested first and that is enough for me. Call it populism... but these are the people who are affected by our decisions and should be a primary consideration in the process.

[Havak]

So, is there a set date for when this ladder will be set up?

I'm not fussed which we test first as long as we get on with it right away.

[skarm]

Since I play now again I suppose I can actually have input!

I disagree that Skymin needs to be tested entirely, but since that has already been decided, I would say that the test period should be larger (at least the two months). It is a good Pokemon, but nothing to the Garchomp level. Also, everyone is just having fun using Platinum things right now and I've already seen a decline in the number of teams I'm facing with Skymin.

Personally, I would hold off on testing Skymin for another month at least before the two month test. I would bet that the drop would be significant if you add to the fact that some new toys like Bullet Punch Scizor are widely used, and a huge candidate to counter Skymin as well.

Edit:

In addition, I believe we should perhaps test some things slated on the Order of Operations posted by Jumpman in "The Policy Review". Some Pokemon, like Latios/Latias (without Soul Dew), might prove to be decent counters to Pokemon such as Skymin, and thus should be tested to see if they're allowed (and I fully believe they will be given I played a Wi-Fi tournament with Dewless Lati@s allowed, and they sucked).

We should open it up to see what we can add to the metagame before taking it away, because what we can add might prove to be an adequate counter to what we're looking to take away, if that that makes sense. I have a head cold right now so maybe not.

I would support Deoxys-S being voted on first just to let Skymin use slow down. As Skymin is "new" it is getting all the publicity - both good and bad.

[IggyBot]

I agree fully with skarm. Shaymin-S is just one part of the new and exciting options Platinum brought us. I say we let the distractions settle down a bit (Bullet Punch Scizor, for example) and test Deoxys-S for now, since we know exactly what it can do. This one month test for Deoxys will, hopefully, give the platinum metagame enough time to get into a rhythm rather than the chaos we have now.

[Havak]

I don't think enough people are seeing it from this point of view...

While the testing is going on, on the Suspect Ladder, for 1-2 months, the Standard Ladder will have the same amount of time to play with Shaymin-S. We'll have enough data with (probably) over 2 months of Standard and 2 months of Suspect IMO.

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by Fat Hipmonlee

I also would like to see Deoxys tested before Shaymin.

There seems to be a lot of hype surrounding shaymin atm that hopefully will die down a bit at some point.

Have a nice day.

Yeah I pretty much entirely agree with this, I think that we shouldn't jump the gun with Shaymin (even though it will most likely be uber), and that we should wait until after we've tested Deoxys.