Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?

[Jetx]

blasphemy1, do you really think people would use the Choice Band set? So many things are immune to Earthquake, and there are many Flash Fire pokémon around to absorb Sacred Fire. Getting a Ho-oh in unscathed is enough of an issue in the first place, so to have its efforts rendered completely useless gives your opponent a huge advantage in free turns.
Without Roost, Ho-oh and its mighty Special Defence still get worn down very easily by Surfs, especially from Bulky Waters like Vaporeon who also can use Toxic. Hell, even the likes of Skarmory can wall you easily if you're not using Sacred Fire.

Sure, Snorlax might be at risk to a CB Earthquake, but that's like saying Zapdos can't counter Lucario because the opponent may assume that you have one and lead off with Ice Punch. The difference is that CBHo-oh would be much more uncommon, so Snorlax would still be a great thing to switch into it. And if it did end up biting into your health with Earthquake, just switch into a flying type and enjoy your free turn.

Things like CBHeracross, who has only slightly less Attack than Adamant CBHo-oh, is threatening because it has two 120BP STAB moves that utterly destroy most things that aren't resistant. Ho-oh has one 100BP STAB move that burns a lot; Choice Banders aren't there to burn things, they're there to take things out, and Ho-oh doesn't do that any better than its rivals.

Originally Posted by Fat blasphemy1

Anyways, who says Ho-oh has to stay in on Rhyperior?!?! There is switching/prediction in this game for a reason. You now have a severly crippled physical tank, who must rely on Resttalk to beat my physical sweeper. I can now safely switch in my Skarmory, set up Spikes, etc, allowing me to beat you later. Or, maybe I send in Bronzong, and set up Stealth Rock. Ho-oh just gives you soo many more options with Sacred Fire.

I don't have a severely crippled anything, because I wasn't silly enough to switch my Rhyperior in on a Sacred Fire. I fail to see what's wrong with a Resttalker using Rest; don't most Resttalkers have to heal themselves after handling a threat? If you really want your Skarmory to get a free turn for Spikes, you could do it the much easier way and switch it in on a Mamoswine or something. "Skarmory walls Rhyperior" is no reason not to use it, because I think you'll find Skarmory can buy free turns on quite a lot of things.
Going back to your comments on CBHo-oh, I'm going to use the exact same logic back: couldn't I switch in my Bronzong on CB Earthquakes and Returns and get a free oppurtunity to use Stealth Rock?

BTW, I noticed the discussion of Ho-oh's STAB move having low PP. The most common Pressure pokemon get destroyed by Sacred Fire! Just about the only safe switch in is Heatran on the initial SF, which could allow Ho-oh to set up a sub and EQ you.

The two most common Pressure pokémon, I think, are Suicune and Zapdos. Suicune has no problems with Sacred Fire, so I don't know where that came from. If Ho-oh was really that good, I think a lot of people would get pretty sick of other Ho-oh users just bringing in their own Ho-ohs to laugh at Sacred Fires. (not to be misinterpreted as "You need a Ho-oh to beat other Ho-ohs" as somebody did earlier)
Also, what is this stuff about Substitute? Is this a SubRoost set with Earthquake, SF, Roost and Substitute you have in mind? Have you considered how easily this would be walled?

This is all theorymon, but I would to test this to show how outrageous these claims really are.

Good stuff. The more people who want to test it the better.

Originally Posted by Fat darknessmalice

Ho-oh roosts off the SR damage in 1 turn as the opponent swaps out, effectively removing the damage. even rhyperior can't heal that 6.25% without rest. i agree that rhyperior is a counter, but a burnt rhyperior is severly crippled and can be set up bait for skarm. Skarm can easily Roost off an attack from a burnt Rhyperior or set up spikes.
This is a scenario case, but its the roost part that makes Ho-oh healthy despite the SR damage.

As said earlier, Skarmory can easily Roost off attacks from a lot of things, nothing new there. With all the Rapid Spinners that would apparently be running around, setting up Spikes would probably be even less reliable than before. I'm also surprised you'd use a Skarmory on a Ho-oh team; you would end up needing something to Rapid Spin and Starmie would give you a huge electric weakness, so you'd need a Donphan. Then you'd need a Water type to take Water moves for the team. It goes on and on until your entire team is centred around Ho-oh and you still might not have covered all your bases.
On your comment about Ho-oh Roosting on the turn the opponent switches out, you are now letting Rhyperior get in absolutely free. You could be letting some Stone Edge Lucario in for free for all you know, so in that case the opponent wouldn't even need a counter (on that note, Ho-oh teams would also need counters to things like that, which complicates things even further). Also, Rhyperior can recover that 6.25% damage at the end of the turn, thanks to Leftovers. And if that didn't happen, maybe they'd be using a Lum Berry instead, in which case they really would have Ho-oh covered.

[Aeolus]

Ok. I've been told this thread is out of control... so here's what we're going to do:

Obviously there is enough disagreement and interest to declare Ho-oh a suspect... so it now is that! It will be added to the list, along with Latios/Latias and the others for testing in due course. It will be voted on eventually.