Setting Down Rules for Platinum Updating

[Great Sage**]

Well, people seem to think that November 1 is too late to start Platinum updating, so we might as well get the ruleset down now and resolve any issues (if you think that November 1 is appropriate feel free to post that too). There's a few issues that are pretty important that I'd like to get feedback on, namely the following:

1. How many people do we allow into the updating forum?
Basically, do we allow everyone to post or limit it to badgeholders? There is a precedent to limiting access in the form of the D/P analysis forum, but one could argue that this isn't so massive in that it isn't creating new analyses, but merely modifying old ones. However, it is still a very comprehensive update, and allowing everyone might get messy.

2. Do we start out with Shaymin-S as an OU or an Uber?
This is a fairly straightforward question; if a very large majority of people say it should be Uber, then it will start off as being Uber. If a small majority or minority say it should be Uber, then it will start off as being OU. This is pretty important because Shaymin-S is a large factor in the metagame and affects many analyses.

3. How should thread-making be managed?
Different analyses need to be updated on different levels, from those like Kingdra that need a complete overhaul to things that hardly changed, like Ditto. It's easiest to express my recommended solution in ruleset form:
-Each Pokemon gets only one thread for all changes, titled only with the Pokemon's name (for example, if a thread is about Kingdra, title it "Kingdra"). This will make it easy to search for threads by alphabetical order.
-The person making the thread should copy and paste the entire SCMS format of an analysis into the thread and describe what he or she changed; this will make it easier to upload the analyses, since we can simply completely overwrite the old version.
-All suggested changes to an analysis, including new sets, should go into that Pokemon's thread.
-The original poster of the thread is responsible for keeping the original post updated with other people's suggestions (mainly pasting in others' sets that have met public approval).


If you have other concerns, please voice them now too.

[Jibaku*]

1. How many people do we allow into the updating forum?
Basically, do we allow everyone to post or limit it to badgeholders? There is a precedent to limiting access in the form of the D/P analysis forum, but one could argue that this isn't so massive in that it isn't creating new analyses, but merely modifying old ones. However, it is still a very comprehensive update, and allowing everyone might get messy.

I'll make this short and simple: Allow everyone that has access to the Metagame Analysis subforum to the updating forum, and possibly all badgeholders as well. We can accept or deny submissions from other people who wish to enter, unless the update forum will be made unseeable by those who do not have access.

Let's not limit this to purely badgeholders as I'm pretty sure some nonbadged people know about a certain metagame better than we do.

[Caelum]

How many people do we allow into the updating forum?
Basically, do we allow everyone to post or limit it to badgeholders? There is a precedent to limiting access in the form of the D/P analysis forum, but one could argue that this isn't so massive in that it isn't creating new analyses, but merely modifying old ones. However, it is still a very comprehensive update, and allowing everyone might get messy.

I see it becoming incredibly messy if everyone posts. I'd say restrict it to badge holders initially, maybe Metagame Analysis people too. I'm wondering if something along the lines of restricting access to the analysis to badge holders until a "final draft" is reached and then moving it to the Analysis Workshop for other users to comment on. I see it being a hassle with tons of people posting before any sort of solid foundation of an analysis is outlined, which would be what the badge holders would set out.

2. Do we start out with Shaymin-S as an OU or an Uber?
This is a fairly straightforward question; if a very large majority of people say it should be Uber, then it will start off as being Uber. If a small majority or minority say it should be Uber, then it will start off as being OU. This is pretty important because Shaymin-S is a large factor in the metagame and affects many analyses.

Tricky, I'd say OU. I'm not quite as certain that Shaymin-S is going to effect that many analysis but I see your point still.

3. How should thread-making be managed?
Different analyses need to be updated on different levels, from those like Kingdra that need a complete overhaul to things that hardly changed, like Ditto. It's easiest to express my recommended solution in ruleset form:
-Each Pokemon gets only one thread for all changes, titled only with the Pokemon's name (for example, if a thread is about Kingdra, title it "Kingdra"). This will make it easy to search for threads by alphabetical order.
-The person making the thread should copy and paste the entire SCMS format of an analysis into the thread and describe what he or she changed; this will make it easier to upload the analyses, since we can simply completely overwrite the old version.
-All suggested changes to an analysis, including new sets, should go into that Pokemon's thread.
-The original poster of the thread is responsible for keeping the original post updated with other people's suggestions (mainly pasting in others' sets that have met public approval).

I would say that people should post which Pokemon they are "calling" and then post in the manner you are suggesting. This will avoid 4 people doing Kingdra at once.

[Bologo]

Originally Posted by Fat Caelum

I would say that people should post which Pokemon they are "calling" and then post in the manner you are suggesting. This will avoid 4 people doing Kingdra at once.

I agree with this, mostly since I haven't done any writing yet, and I want to know what's still available. However, from what I remember, some people feel that the reservation process makes things too slow, and that sometimes more than 1 person working on the same peer edit is beneficial, since you can take the best parts from both.

[Colonel M]

I'd limit this to badgeholders and have a topic here on who can do what. Well, you know why. >_>;

2) I'd count Shaymin-S as OU for now. We can have an Uber analysis as a back-up somewhere. If it's OU for now, then we might as well write it geared toward OU.

3) See what I've said first. Put a topic on who gets what / etc.

EDIT: Dib Pimpkrow, Rotom-H, Rotom-F, and DX-S if possible.

[kd24]

I'll make this short and simple: Allow everyone that has access to the Metagame Analysis subforum to the updating forum. We can accept or deny submissions from other people who wish to enter, unless the update forum will be made unseeable by those who do not have access.

I would say just allow any badgeholder to update, some people may be willing to contribute and are badgeholders but dont have metagame analysis access.

[Caelum]

Originally Posted by Fat Bologo

I agree with this, mostly since I haven't done any writing yet, and I want to know what's still available. However, from what I remember, some people feel that the reservation process makes things too slow, and that sometimes more than 1 person working on the same peer edit is beneficial, since you can take the best parts from both.

Well, I'm not suggesting that more then one person can't help on it, but I think one person should set out the general outline and then those who want to contribute can do as they want.

[Stellar]

I would probably limit the analysis creation to those who have access to PR.

[RBG*]

Aggreing with what people are saying about 1 and 3.

For Number 2, do we assume,Skymin, and Speed Deoxys are considered OU and chomp uber? Or do we have another minor revamp at the end of testing?

[Havak]

1. I'd probably roll with Badgeholder+ or Policy Review eligibles.

2. Definately OU for now, more people have experience using it in OU and that's where it is at the moment. I'm actually going to start writing this page soon (for Shaymin-S).

3. Agreed. Agreing with Caelum too as I'd like to claim Shaymin-S if possible.

[Bologo]

I personally don't see why we don't just put all of the current suspects into the Limbo tier for now. That way we can know which suspects are going to be tested, and therefore, which pokemon to make a back-up analysis for, just in case there's any tier switches that occur from the testing. It's not as if the Limbo tier is really doing anything right now. This is just a suggestion though, so it's fine to leave them as it is, but I'm just not sure why the Limbo tier is even there if nothing's going to be in it.

Also, badgeholder+, PR access, and metagame analysis people seem perfectly fine to give access to. They've all shown that they care about the site enough that I'm sure quite a few of them would be willing to help out.

[jumpluff*]

1. I agree with both of Bologo's points and Jibaku's. I think it should be like PR in that, you know, if there are a few exceptional people who for some reason don't have a badge and would be well-equipped to contribute, they should be allowed.

2. Personally I think it should start out as OU and be tested for übers [Shaymin-S] as according; currently, it's OU, after all. That's just me though, obviously. I mean, I know it's going to be tested once the Deoxys-E stuff is over, but it's currently being played a LOT in OU and I think the fairest thing to do is give it its chance to play itself out in OU. As for D-E, it isn't über yet so it'd be presumptive to start as über. Maybe it shouldn't be touched at all as the testing's going to be done shortly and voting, right? Colonel M is right though I think, there's nothing stopping us from doing an über analysis anyway? How long is the testing going to take again? ~.~

3. I agree there should be a 'claiming' thing. Maybe the forum should be limited to badgeholders only or something creating threads, and then maybe everyone could post or it could still just be PR and badged+?

[Aldaron*]

1.) Open it to everyone. I patrol Analysis Workshop (along with J7r and Great Sage) diligently enough. People who aren't badged members yet might have good ideas, they should be able to post. This isn't like the beginning of DP where we have no new analyses.

2.) Assume it is OU (in this vein can we also not do anything drastic with Garchomp...)

3.) I disagree with only one topic for each. Topics can get derailed even now in Analysis Workshop when discussing just one set. I can't imagine anything much more infuriating than discussing the nuances of one set and having people decide to change gears to another. If I want to discuss mixed DD Kingdra, I'd rather make a separate topic and discuss it solely.

To be honest though, I don't really care how this is done, I just want to update shit already.

I'm "calling" / "reserving" the total Salamence revamp, land Shaymin updates (at least 3 sets will be updated), Curse Steelix (UU) and Choice Scarf Azelf.

Obviously I have a crapload more, but I figure I'll give you scrubs a chance :P

Those 4 are MINE however.

[jumpluff*]

I-I want to make the Ampharos thread.

XD;;; I know this seems silly, especially as it only got two things worth mentioning, it seems: Magnet Rise and Signal Beam. Magnet Rise seems total Other Options fodder to me, and Signal Beam possibly > HP Ice and HP Ice mentioned in Other Options or something for BoltBeam/Altaria, but before doing that, there needs to be a thread, right? I don't know... But yeah... That's about all I have to offer :x

[I just love Ampharos a lot and wish it had gotten Tail Glow okay don't shoot me]

[Colonel M]

I've told what I want to dib. I've played around with Honchkrow a lot so I got some experience with it. Same with Rotom-W and Rotom-F. I did do the peer edit on DX-S and really the only significant changes is Trick. At least from my perspective. >_>;

[gorm]

def call skymin OU, just as garchomp was thoughout the suspect test until at least the first official vote.

Just because of the sheer volume I'd move for badgeholders only, or MG analysis/Policy Review, so basically anyone we have recognized as knowledgeable/useful. Aldaron will probably make every single one again if we don't watch out e___e. If we're missing out on sets we will figure it out along the way since then sheer volume means that we won't exactly be waiting on sets to review/chache.

I agree with the claiming idea but i also think seperate sets deserve their own topic.

[Stellar]

Eh, not sure if I should post this but I call the total Kingdra revamp, along with Specs Swampert.

[jrrrrrrr]

Originally Posted by Fat Great Sage

1. How many people do we allow into the updating forum?
Basically, do we allow everyone to post or limit it to badgeholders? There is a precedent to limiting access in the form of the D/P analysis forum, but one could argue that this isn't so massive in that it isn't creating new analyses, but merely modifying old ones. However, it is still a very comprehensive update, and allowing everyone might get messy.

"Everyone". It's not like bad updates from terrible posters will be permanently stuck on the site. I see new movesets every day from people on shoddy that could be contributed. I personally want to see as much as I can, and part of that would be letting as many opinions come in as possible. Honestly, I think this would only interest a small part of the population and it would draw mostly the same crowd as the analysis forum does already. Where is this forum going? I would put it in C&C, putting it in Stark just seems like you would be asking for a shit storm and flame war.

Originally Posted by Fat Great Sage

2. Do we start out with Shaymin-S as an OU or an Uber?
This is a fairly straightforward question; if a very large majority of people say it should be Uber, then it will start off as being Uber. If a small majority or minority say it should be Uber, then it will start off as being OU. This is pretty important because Shaymin-S is a large factor in the metagame and affects many analyses.

The current system is that all NFEs or "other forms" of pokemon start out as being classified in the same tier as their base form...so I guess this technically makes Shaymin-S BL (or that means that we need to change our policy on nfes.....). I personally don't think that Skymin is a huge threat and I would be disappointed to see such an unmerited promotion to Ubers so hastily. Almost all of the "SkyMin is uber" argument is purely Platinum hype. Skymin is significantly better on paper than it is in practice and this uber hype will die down once people realize that.

Originally Posted by Fat Great Sage

3. How should thread-making be managed?
Different analyses need to be updated on different levels, from those like Kingdra that need a complete overhaul to things that hardly changed, like Ditto. It's easiest to express my recommended solution in ruleset form:
-Each Pokemon gets only one thread for all changes, titled only with the Pokemon's name (for example, if a thread is about Kingdra, title it "Kingdra"). This will make it easy to search for threads by alphabetical order.
-The person making the thread should copy and paste the entire SCMS format of an analysis into the thread and describe what he or she changed; this will make it easier to upload the analyses, since we can simply completely overwrite the old version.
-All suggested changes to an analysis, including new sets, should go into that Pokemon's thread.
-The original poster of the thread is responsible for keeping the original post updated with other people's suggestions (mainly pasting in others' sets that have met public approval).

I agree with this, except for the "pokemon only get one thread" thing. Separating it by generation (rby/gsc/adv/dpp) is really helpful in the title. I think one thread per set is fine, it helps keep discussion flowing and concentrated. It also helps to keep track of who is actually posting new sets much easier. It's not like we're going to be flooded with Kingdra sets just because it got one useful move, Outrage, in Platinum.

Tbh, that part should just be a matter of discretion. If there are two Scizor edits going on at the same time, it should be fairly obvious whether or not they need their own separate threads. Like Aldaron said, we along with GS patrol that forum regularly, I dont see this getting too out of hand. I personally think that the "set name" should be included in the title that way we can completely circumvent the whole one-thread-per-pokemon thing. Like, "Platinum Kingdra (DD Outrage)" and "Platinum Kingdra (Specs)" as separate threads should be more than adequate to address all of the concerns youve addressed in that part.

[X-Act]

Originally Posted by Fat Great Sage

2. Do we start out with Shaymin-S as an OU or an Uber?

Start it as OU for now. Its suspect test should be imminent if I'm not mistaken. If it's deemed uber after that, we'll move it to uber. I think leaving the process going normally is the better thing to do.

By the way, we never said that 'Pokemon of the same form should be in the same tier'. If that is true, then Deoxys-S is uber, or else all Deoxys are OU.

[jrrrrrrr]

Originally Posted by Fat X-Act

By the way, we never said that 'Pokemon of the same form should be in the same tier'. If that is true, then Deoxys-S is uber, or else all Deoxys are OU.

I just assumed that we were counting the lesser forms as NFEs since they play in almost the exact same way, I misunderstood (and I also think Deoxys-S is uber so I guess what I said was still right =\).

also I just realized that lots of Uber analyses are also going to have to be edited thanks to Garchomp. I dont think Latios or Lugia should run less than 333 speed, etc.

[Bologo]

Well, if we're going to start with the reserving stuff, I am officially calling Bibarel as my man. (how many of you honestly didn't expect that? -.-)

[X-Act]

Well, Garchomp was always available to be used in ubers, even when it was OU.

[Caelum]

Uh, Are we even allowed to "call" stuff yet guys (I have a bunch that have already been "called" but whatever, I'll post them in your topics just to hassle you anyway)?

Anyway, my real question is, we aren't going to bother doing this for obvious things correct? For example, we aren't going to open a topic just to change Signal Beam from HP Bug on Grumpig or something, I figure someone can just change that directly.

[Havak]

Yeah, we should probably come up with a list of what each Pokémon needs. Just a list such as:

Shaymin-S - Full Article
Grumpig - Switch Hidden Power Bug for Signal Beam

Etc.

Then people can just post in the thread once they've done such a thing, and it can be ticked off. (If there is a thread for a large revamp, then it could be linked to as well).

[kd24]

er ill do it in my free time if anyone wants to help they can contact me on irc and discuss the list with me.