Is anyone else having trouble making subsalac type sets work?

[Kabuto Mushi]

Maybe it's just general inexperiance on my part, but I'm having ALOT of touble making stuff like subsalac Hera or Endure-reversal style fighters working at all in platinum, ie. now more than ever. The speedy stuff like Skymin and Scarftran, and the ever-present Bullet punch Scizor all seems to put a serious damper on these strategies... along with the usual sandstream/SR threat.. You know what I mean?


P.S. When Scizor uses bullet punch, does he just punch you really fast or do his claws actually fly off like rockets? >.>

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I personally would never even consider a SubSalac set in the current environment. There's just too much priority and PHazing moves going around for it to be worthwhile. That's my opinion anyway.

P.S. When Scizor uses bullet punch, does he just punch you really fast or do his claws actually fly off like rockets?

Um, the first one? Lol at the second option.

[Kabuto Mushi]

Originally Posted by Fat Lemmiwinks MkII

I personally would never even consider a SubSalac set in the current environment. There's just too much priority and PHazing moves going around for it to be worthwhile. That's my opinion anyway.



Um, the first one? Lol at the second option.

=P

Good to see someone agrees.

[Tingaling]

The metagame has definitely shifted because of the ever-present Bullet Punch Scizor, as glass cannon sweepers are no longer as powerful and subsalac/leichi/petaya pokemon are not doing so hot

[cim]

Subsalac is fine, if you leave 25% HP rater than 1% and use it on something with a good Speed stat. WHen you do it at 1 though you leave yourself really vulerable to even resisted priority. While I'm on that, be sure to do SubPinch on something that resists a lot of priority (oh hello Empoleon).

Also, there is significantly less phazing in DPP than in Advance. I have no idea where you got the "more phazing" idea from.

You guys are acting as if Endure Reversal was viable then Bullet Punch Scizor ruined everything, which couldn't be further from the truth. Priority has always been a huge part of DPP, and combined with shit like Sand Stream and Hail fucking everyone up you're bound to have problems.

All of these sets are usable, if not viable, if you play correctly.

[Chou Toshio]

As if they were doing hot before platinum? I mean bullet punch Metagross, Extreme Speed Luck, Mamoswine and Roar users like Swampert, Vaporeon and Suicune have never exactly been something to laugh at.

[TAY]

Actually I have found Sub/Salac Heracross to be incredibly useful. Especially now that the new team trend "spam paralysis / residual damage / flinch" is gaining popularity, Substitute is often a very worthwhile move. Not to mention bluffing Scarf can be pretty damn useful. If you lay screens for it, it will beat Heat Wave Zapdos, Salamence, and Gyarados on the switch even without Stone Edge. TTar is annoying, but honestly if you get off even 3 attacks after an SD then you have probably won the game.

The team I used it on became obsolete about a week ago, but I reckon Sub/Salac Heracross is still quite a force, especially paired with Magnezone to beat Scizor and Skarmory!

[RaikouLover]

SubPetaya Empoleon is about the best pinch user there is. It 4Xs resist Ice Shard and Bullet Punch, which are easily the 2 most common priority moves, and usually the only two on a team. It also resists' Sandstorm, and even with a Modest nature it is still outspeeding Scarfed Heatran after an Agility. I would also venture to say it is most useful in the Suspect Ladder without that damn Deoxys-E. Plus, most Roar users are bulky Grounds that won't appreciate being smacked in the face by a Surf or in Swampert's case, Grass Knot.

[Playamania]

Getting a HP number so it activates a pinch berry at 25% is still viable in the current metagame, although with priority moves all over the shot it can be unreliable.

For reversal users, they will never fit in to the OU metagame however, they are very powerful and usable in UU.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Reversal Lucario is still ridiculous if you can manage to get Scizor out of the way. It just hits so stupid hard, plus after a Salac boost, very little manages to wall STAB BP 200 Reversal AND Crunch, especially if you can get a Swords Dance in. The Salac Berry negates the need for Extremespeed.

RevCario was always my favorite set, next to SpecsCario. If you have a decent contingency plan for Scizor, RevCario can still be incredibly powerful.

[wildfire393]

I would have to say, at least given the metagame, that this is not a very viable option.

In OU alone, we have Weavile, Donphan, and Mamoswine usually running Ice shard (to deal with Skymin and Salamence mostly). Scizor, Metagross, and Lucario all have the tendancy to run Bullet Punch. Infernape and Breloom can both run Mach Punch. Dusknoir, Gallade, and Spiritomb can run Shadow Sneak. Dugtrio, Gengar, and Spiritomb all often run Sucker Punch. Lucario and sometimes Togekiss run ExtremeSpeed (and Deoxys-S can run it, but that seems a little redundant). And 8 OU's can (though not necessarily will) run Quick Attack. It just seems like far too much priority available, especially as many of these sets (all of the Ice Sharders, Scizor, Lucario, all the sucker Punchers) are quite common. It seems uncommon for a team NOT to have a priority move or two floating around. Additionally, when you take into account residual damage sources like Hail, Sandstorm, Toxic Spikes, etc, it becomes very hard to survive with a low life total.

It seems like a much more effective use of an itemslot to simply put a Choice item there to mimic the effects of the berry you would use (50% = 1 stage, which is all the berries do). It takes away your abilitiy to switch moves, but it seems like it'd be just as good.

[Bourbon]

Basically, you've got to get the pinch berry to activate at 25%, like everyone is saying.

However, it also helps if you can keep your substitute intact. Like, for example, Sub Salac Porygon-Z vs Flamethrower+Toxic Blissey. Or MoPCross vs Gliscor without Aerial Ace. If you have a Substitute that breaks in two hits instead of one, and you can get down to the Salac Boost with that Substitute up, then you're in business. Usually you can get at least two kills out of them that way. You'll usually kill the wall you set up on, then you'll probably kill the next thing they send out, as they break your sub. Then they'll likely send in their priority move user. Run away and use your sub salac pokemon as death fodder.

Of course, on the off chance they don't have a priority move (like, scizor got surprised) then you'll probably sweep.

[cim]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

SubPetaya Empoleon is about the best pinch user there is. It 4Xs resist Ice Shard and Bullet Punch, which are easily the 2 most common priority moves, and usually the only two on a team. It also resists' Sandstorm, and even with a Modest nature it is still outspeeding Scarfed Heatran after an Agility. I would also venture to say it is most useful in the Suspect Ladder without that damn Deoxys-E. Plus, most Roar users are bulky Grounds that won't appreciate being smacked in the face by a Surf or in Swampert's case, Grass Knot.

You're dead on here. The default switch for Empoleon is Magnezone, Dugtrio, or a Fighter, and SubPetaya sets up on that all with ease. Without Deoxys, an Empoleon team is very good at sweeping as only Scarf Gengar outruns it (and Empoleon teams pack Pursuiters). Stuff like Sucker Punch, Ice Shard, and Bullet Punch can't manage 25%, leaving nearly everything to be OHKOed. I secretly hope DE leaves just so I can use him.

[Stagnant]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

SubPetaya Empoleon is about the best pinch user there is. It 4Xs resist Ice Shard and Bullet Punch, which are easily the 2 most common priority moves, and usually the only two on a team. It also resists' Sandstorm, and even with a Modest nature it is still outspeeding Scarfed Heatran after an Agility. I would also venture to say it is most useful in the Suspect Ladder without that damn Deoxys-E. Plus, most Roar users are bulky Grounds that won't appreciate being smacked in the face by a Surf or in Swampert's case, Grass Knot.

I second this statement.

[Darkmalice]

If you were to use a Subsalac, you would have to use a pokemon that resists Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, Extremespeed resistance is also helpful. That means Steel pokemon are best, followed by fire (SR weakness = 1 less sub, which makes little difference). Decent subsalacs would be:
Metagross, but his other sets are better.
Lucario - can Sub first turn as opponent swaps to a counter, after the last sub, his salac should activate. If he is faster, he SDs after the last sub is set up, otherwise, he SDs as it breaks, and he should then be faster than the opponent. And he won't have extremespeed on such a set (obviously).
Magmortar - but overall weaker than Lucario due to less power.
Other options, all have problems (Empoleon has even less power than Magmortar)

Lucario would be the best subsalac, but that denies the gift of a hard hitting priority move (though that role has largely been lost to Scizor). Of course, dont use Reversal.

[Stagnant]

By "less power" I assume that you mean that Magmotar cannot boost his offensive stats. As looking at the base stats Magmotar is at 95Atk and 125SA while lucario's best attack stat is 115 I believe.

[cim]

Originally Posted by Fat darknessmalice

Metagross, but his other sets are better.
Lucario - can Sub first turn as opponent swaps to a counter, after the last sub, his salac should activate and he can then SD.
Magmortar - but overall weaker than Lucario due to less power.
Other options, all have problems (Empoleon has even less power than Magmortar)

Lucario would be the best subsalac, but that denies the gift of a hard hitting priority move (though that role has largely been lost to Scizor). Of course, dont use Reversal.

You're misinformed. In fact you have it backward. Lucario has the lowest offense of them if he doesn't use SD, Magmoartar is second to Empoleon because of Petaya and Torrent. I honestly don't know why you think Subsalac needs a priority attack (of which Lucario has two excellent ones btw).

[Colonel M]

Substitute Heatran sounds really appealing as it resists both Extremespeed and Bullet Punch thanks to that Steel typing. Then there's playing the whole "I could be scarfed" game. Too bad he can't raise his Special Attack but it's all a sacrifice to make it a benefit.

[Darkmalice]

Originally Posted by Fat Chris is me

You're misinformed. In fact you have it backward. Lucario has the lowest offense of them if he doesn't use SD, Magmoartar is second to Empoleon because of Petaya and Torrent. I honestly don't know why you think Subsalac needs a priority attack (of which Lucario has two excellent ones btw).

A smart Lucario user will be able to set up SD, activate salac and attack without damage (apart from Sub and SR damage). And I even stated that salac doesn't work well with priority attacks.

But yes, Empoleon has more power than Magmortar due to Torrent, Agility and Petaya. But Surf and Ice Beam is walled by the many waters whilst Surf and Grass Knot is by Dragons and Celebi. Magmortar would have Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Thunderbolt and HP Ice/Fighting or Focus Blast with better type coverage. Lucario has good type coverage as well with Close Combat and Crunch (alongside Sub and SD).

[Darth Meanie]

I've been trying SubPetaya Empoleon. I built a team around him, with a BP Zapdos w/ charge beam substitute and roost to support him, A SD Pursuit Scizor to take out Deoxys, a SpecsCario to support the Scizor, and a Gliscor to cover Empoleon's weaknesses. I haven't played with him much yet, but 4 out of 4 battles won! And this is my first time with Platinum, so thats good.

[bulbasauresrec]

If you use SubSalac the thing is that you need to make sure that you can always 1HKO the next incoming Pokemon cause when left with 25% HP, any attack is near garunteed a KO. Thats most probably why SubSalac sets are not working.

Empoleon would still be walled by Blissey and taken out by a single Seismic Toss. Lucario without Reversal would deal around 50% to a Metagross and then be taken out by an Earthquake.

[y2zipper]

The key to a subsalac set is setting it up. You really have to make sure that every counter your opponent could have is gone before you set up the sweep.

I agree that Empoleon and Heracross are the 2 best users of this type of set. It also helps to use stealth rock, spikes, poison, or some other form of residual damage in order to weaken up the opponent for the sweep. Another thing that helps is to have screens as mentioned earlier. I think the Porygon Z version of this set has potential, although I have never tried it myself.

[RaikouLover]

Empoleon would still be walled by Blissey and taken out by a single Seismic Toss. Lucario without Reversal would deal around 50% to a Metagross and then be taken out by an Earthquake.

Blissey is usually the first switch on Empoleon, so Empy wouldn't be at 25%. And to let everyone know, Empoleon beats a Blissey that comes in on the first substitute if 2 layers of toxic spikes are on the field :-D

[bulbasauresrec]

Blissey is usually the first switch on Empoleon, so Empy wouldn't be at 25%. And to let everyone know, Empoleon beats a Blissey that comes in on the first substitute if 2 layers of toxic spikes are on the field :-D

But if Empoleon subs down to activate the Salac, which this thread is talking about, it would be at 25%. Blissey getting beat by toxic spikes is same like any pokemon toxic stalling Blissey.

[outofdashdwz]

Originally Posted by Fat Playamania

Getting a HP number so it activates a pinch berry at 25% is still viable in the current metagame, although with priority moves all over the shot it can be unreliable.

For reversal users, they will never fit in to the OU metagame however, they are very powerful and usable in UU.

I feel the need to point out that Flail/Reversal users are not viable in UU any more than in OU, in fact, they are much less viable than in OU. Priority attacks are much more widespread in UU than OU, from Hitmontop's myriad of priorities, Swellow/Scyther's Quick Attack, CBLee's Mach Punch, Persian/Toxicroak/Purugly's Fake Out, Banette/Muk's Shadow Sneak, etc. The list goes on.