Did Platinum improve this game?

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Jetx

Actually it doesn't counter Scizor and Skymin as well as you'd think... Not to burst your bubble or anything. If you can keep Stealth Rock off the field it at least works against Scizor. :P

but I'm not one to disagree about it, of course!

Ho-oh counters Skymin 61% of the time. 39% is the probability of hitting with and getting the effects of Seed Flare and Air Slash in succession. If Seed Flare misses or its effect fails, Ho-oh easily counters. If Air Slash does not flinch, Shaymin is destroyed by Sacred Fire. All bets are off if you use HP Rock (Skymin), all bets are off if Ho-oh is Scarfed (Ho-oh).

In other words, you have a similar shot of taking out Ho-oh with Sheer Cold as you do with Skymin.

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by Fat Legacy Raider

EDIT: Found this in the 'How do you create a team thread':



Yep, I agree. *

=] Someone quoted my thread.

Any way I'm sick and tired of the OU metagame. I've developed a taste for Ubers and UU because they're hell of a lot more diverse than the OU. True ubers is the same pokemon, because there is so few. But the sets they can run are pretty endless, not knowing what to expect.

In ou: Oh Skymin, Hai Scizor! Your friend Heatran about? Oh there he is. Don't want an earthquake hurting you! Zapdos! That's where you been hiding. Mamoswine, you silly goose, come out and play.

I'm mean I played some OU today. I played the team listed above FIVE TIMES in a row each against a different player.

[blasphemy1]

Competitive pokemon and the actual game are two entirely separate entities. I don't think Platinum ruined either one. Competitively speaking, I like the more offensive "bog" standards of today rather than seeing Blissey on every team. I actually don't mind playing all of these teams, as they are all beaten by a few pokemon who are under the radar. One of these pokemon is RestTalk CursePert with Waterfall. Just the only thing stopping it is SpecsMence, who is rare, and Vaporeon/Suicune. It easily walls Zapdos w/out HP Grass, virtually all of them, and if it gets a Curse as you switch to Scizor / Heatran / Kingdra, etc. it will win the fight. You just have to find pokemon who can tear down these "bog" standards and look at it as an opportunity to use some certain pokemon who fill certain niches rather than seeing it is boring and unoriginal, as competitive pokemon isn't about that.

Platinum, the actual gamefreak product, looks fantastic and I can't wait. Battle Frontier should be fun, and this is where you can abuse your "originality".

[Valantaro]

Before, I was highly for the banning of Garchomp. Now, however, I don't think he's as uber as I once thought. Things like Scizor come in on his Outrage, and do 47.21%-55.59% with Bullet Punch.

Things like Skymin, Heatran, etc...all dominated the metagame, and, to see a team without them, is very, very rare. Zapdos is now a lot more common due to Garchomp being banned. It seems as if Stealth Rock is on every team, and I can't go into a match without seeing a suicide lead. I've been seeing SubSeed Skymin everywhere. I expected it to be an offensive beast; I was wrong.

I don't feel comfortable with all these new changes, which is why I'm entering the tutoring program. I've been unable to create a decent team to deal with all these threats.

[muramasa]

People always want to try out the new shiny stuff. Remember when D/P came out and every team had Electivire and Rhyperior on it?

It's obviously way too early to really tell if Platinum has improved or worsened the metagame. It'll probably take a few months for the statistics to really mean anything.

[343]

To list just few of the changes platinum version brings;

Dragonite is no longer the only thing besides rayquaza that gets DDance and STAB outrage. Altaria, Salamence and Kingdra now have that combination available to them. Infact, much to my friend's dismay, outrage has become available to quite a lot of pokemon. Without the STAB however, most of the pokemon that recieved outrage in platinum will find they have better options.
Still STAB or no STAB I am still going to teach my red gyarados outrage for the sheer coolness of it.

Knock Off has become available to to many pokemon including gengar.
Also Body Slam + Knock Off is no longer an illegal combination on shuckle.

The elemantal punches have returned. Let us all rejoice! :D
This means that aqua jet and ice punch can be used together on azumarill.

As previously stated Trick is now widely available. This means item manipulation will be more common.

Sucker Punch and Vacuum Wave are now avialable to a few more pokemon and sucker punch is something of an improvement on darkrai. on the down side most of the pokemon that got vacuum wave won't be using it all that effectively.

Spite is more widely available but as is the case with outrage and vacuum wave most of the pokemon that got it don't use it very well.

Magnet rise is a neat addition to the move pools of many electric and steel types. It works nicely on jolteon as he can baton pass it.

Celebi and Shaymin both get a physical upgrade with the addition of seed bomb to their move pools.

Many pokemon recieved aqua tail but most of them have little use for it as they have other moves that already cover what it covers.

Celebi and Shaymin both get earth power to cover fire types (look out Heatran!). Lunatone is one of the few other pokemon who recieved it that can really use it well as most of the pokemon that got earth power are physically oriented.

Heat Wave is an interesting one. It's interesting because they gave it to a lot of the normal/flying types. It might be something to consider on the likes of Pidgeot or a nasty plotting crobat or maybe even zapdos but most of thep okemon that got it don't really need it.

A TON of pokemon now have access to signal beam.

[ViVi]

This thread seems more like a "I dont want to learn how to deal with Platinum" moveset then anything else..Kind of like back when everyone wanted to ban TTar and Blissey to ubers.

The only Platinum thing I dont like is Skymin, while it isnt as devastatingly powerful as Garchomp was, it causes more over centeralization..

[TDS]

notice i said like 20 counters as an exaggeration. There are more than there needs to be Gyarados, salamence, zapdos, tentacruel, nidoqueen, weezing blah blah you get the point

[Chou Toshio]

Originally Posted by Fat Tri-DarkSouls

notice i said like 20 counters as an exaggeration. There are more than there needs to be Gyarados, salamence, zapdos, tentacruel, nidoqueen, weezing blah blah you get the point

Infernape, charizard, moltres, tentacruel, poliwrath, lucario, steelix, F-Punch Jirachi, Mantine (lol), Peliper (lol), you can probably find 20 if you keep going. It's coverage is just not that impressive. The list goes to around 40 if it lacks super power/brick break I bet. Many of which pokes can predict steel/bug attack and switch in on those anyway.

[Tingaling]

Originally Posted by Fat ChouToshio

Infernape, charizard, moltres, tentacruel, poliwrath, lucario, steelix, F-Punch Jirachi, Mantine (lol), Peliper (lol), you can probably find 20 if you keep going. It's coverage is just not that impressive. The list goes to around 40 if it lacks super power/brick break I bet. Many of which pokes can predict steel/bug attack and switch in on those anyway.

How can infernape live a +2 quick attack? Alot of these don't work as viable counters.

[ultimifier]

CB superpower destroys over half of the pokemon on that list. not to mention a CB uturn does not even have a counter, as your wouldbecounter is now at a serious disadvantage to the pokemon that uturn yields...

so scizor is actually very hard to counter, the CB sets at least. LO SD scizor sets are actually much easier to counter than CB

[the_artic_one]

Originally Posted by Fat Tingaling

How can infernape live a +2 quick attack? Alot of these don't work as viable counters.

84.69% - 99.66%

And that's with a life orb (also, metalkids calculator overshoots), plus who runs quick attack these days?

[Thorns]

The "bog standards" of Pokemon will eventually be broken down by a new creative idea that someone will make. At that point, Pokemon will be used to counter said new creative idea, which will lead to new sets, etc, etc.

Platinum is good for the metagame, it means new Pokemon movesets will be introduced, therefore leading to more new Pokemon movesets designed to counter Scizor, Lucario, etc. More creativity will eventually come to Pokemon, in short.

[c l e a r]

have it occured to you that skymin is going to bump to uber soon and everything will be better soon?

[jumpluff*]

Originally Posted by Fat Clear

have it occured to you that skymin is going to bump to uber soon and everything will be better soon?

That's an unfounded statement, as the D-E suspect test hasn't even been voted on yet.

[Chou Toshio]

@Clear-- Moreover, I actually prefer a game with Skymin. People always complain about powerful sweepers, but in my opinion Bulky Waters are a bigger nuisance prohibiting strategies from working, and there's almost no check to them. Think about it, since RB people have been considering the almost over-poweredness of water, with a ridiculous number of pokemon, hit nuetral on almost everything, and with only 2 measly weaknesses, 1 being immuned by the ever present ground type and the other being hit by ice beam (learned by every one of the bastards). Just because Suicune/Milotic/Vaporeon/Swampert (not to mention the ever popular Starmie) are all vying for the top of the heap so that no 1 of them gets into the top 10 doesn't mean that their combined presence isn't seriously felt.

Finally a poke with the power to wipe them all out with a single hit and the speed to outspeed them all (including starmie) is seriously welcome. Yes I'm aware that Sceptile can achieve the same, but it's offensively retarded compared the a top sweeper in OU, and not much of a threat to the other enemies.

The fact that bulky waters (not just suicune, but all of them together) are just as prevalent now as ever (if not even more popular) despite Skymin's addition should be proof enough of how over-powering they can be.

[Legacy Raider]

I agree completely with Chou's point about the dominance of bulky waters and how they they throw their weight about the metagame. Water is easily one of the best types defensively alongside Dragon and Steel. Offensively, it is the only type to give such perfect coverage when used alongside Normal, and hits so much for neutral it is insane.

Skymin is a welcome addition to take these waters out, but I do feel that Serene Grace Seed Flare + Air Slash is overpowered. Its just the incredible 'hax' value of 80% SpD drop and 60% flinch, when combined with its blistering speed, that allows it hax anything to death. It is an excellent revenge killer, and if allowed to set up, the Substitute set can run through an entire team in the blink of an eye.

That is why, despite its great ability in taking out the aforementioned waters, I think it should be bumped up to Uber.

[ultimifier]

there are still plenty of ways to avoid the bulky water problem without skymin. regular shaymin is still a good pokemon, and will hopefully be OU if skymin is banned. Seed flare is still a devastating move if only 40% and the lack of SR weakness and natural rest really help shaymin.

celebi is also becoming much more popular since getting earth power. offensive celebis with LO and specs/scarf celebi are getting more popular from what ive seen (and used).

bulky waters are still a huge threat even with skymin around, but i dont feel banning skymin would have a huge effect of bulky waters usage

[Chou Toshio]

Are you kidding me? There are so many times when even Modest Skymin does not hit things hard enough for me, and without seedflare's status drop it's essentially helpless infront of any of its semi-counters. There's a reason none of the other 100-straight club members (Jirachi/Celebi) are almost never full-out sweepers, and that's because frankly 100 base offensive stat is offensively retarded.

Regular Shaymin is not going to hit anywhere near hard enough on just about anything that resists grass, and only 40% chance of sDEF drop (yes, only), it's just not intimidating enough (never has been). Air Slash is also essentially worthless when you're sitting at the same speed as Salamence and Zapdos. Actually, 100 base offensive stats are worthless when you're sitting at the same speed as salamence and zapdos. >>

Zapdos is just about the only OU pokemon I see as being a sweeper with a worthwhile ability against bulky water-- but it's usually helpless against swampert, and electric always has and always will be not a fun STAB to rely on when any ground type can just come in for free.

Grass on the other hand is not immuned by anything, but it always has been a type with terrible overall coverage (too many resisting enemies). Skymin's sp.DEF drop at full power is just about the only method in the game for alleviating this problem. Do you see any other OU sweepers relying on grass for their main STAB move?

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat ChouToshio

Zapdos is just about the only OU pokemon I see as being a sweeper with a worthwhile ability against bulky water-- but it's usually helpless against swampert

I thought HP Grass was the standard now?

[Chou Toshio]

Just a comment I read in another thread where swampert v. zapdos came up. Honestly I don't know since almost all my answers to Zapdos don't involve a grass weak. Actually, even if it does involve a grass weak, Thunderbolt hits harder than than a 2x super effective hit. In other words to make hidden power worthwhile at all the enemy has to be 4x weak to it, or immune to electric, or weak to it and resistant to electric.

The point of this rant being I guess that STAB electric is a shitty way to try to get rid of bulky waters in generaly, especially since electric does not resist water.

Shaymin-S is a welcome tool for this job, but even then it's got a lot of problems. Grass-Flying is a shitty ass typing. Don't even try to argue otherwise. 4x Ice Weak means that Skymin as is has a chance of being 1hko'd by just about any water type. Nevertheless it is a blessing for being able to help even as much as it can.

[Little Green Yoda]

Originally Posted by Fat ChouToshio

The fact that bulky waters (not just suicune, but all of them together) are just as prevalent now as ever (if not even more popular) despite Skymin's addition should be proof enough of how over-powering they can be.

In a metagame filled to the brim with Heatran, Salamence, Metagross, Scizor, etc., is it really a surprise that one Pokemon is not enough to deter the use of bulky waters? They really help "counter" some of the most prevalent threats in the metagame today. Especially now that the most fearsome SDer in early D/P is banished, Waters can actually invest in defensive EVs, have them mean something, and not have to run an enormous number of special attack EVs to OHKO said SDer.

I wonder if this post falls in the "something realistic vs something idealistic" category. <_< Not sure if I have said anything to the effect "I told you so" though lol.

[Robodl9]

I completely disagree with TC really. Platinum has made th metagame more diverse. Scizor and Zapdos are a fad and people want to try it to see if its really as good as people say .Its not like we have'ntseen this before with cough cough Garchomp

Edit: sorry I tend to get jumbled on the internet

[Tingaling]

Originally Posted by Fat Robodl9

I completely disagree with TC really Platinum has made it more diverse I think okay scizor and Zapdos or kinda a fad people want to try it to see if its really as good as people say Its not like weve seen this before cough cough Garchomp

Besides the horrendous grammar, Robodl9 makes a good point. You cannot make assumptions about the new metagame less than a month after it started. For all we know, this could all be a fad and the killer for next month will be Superpower DDtar!

[Chou Toshio]

Originally Posted by Fat Little Green Yoda

In a metagame filled to the brim with Heatran, Salamence, Metagross, Scizor, etc., not to mention gyaradosis it really a surprise that one Pokemon is not enough to deter the use of bulky waters? They really help "counter" some of the most prevalent threats in the metagame today. Especially now that the most fearsome SDer in early D/P is banished, Waters can actually invest in defensive EVs, have them mean something, and not have to run an enormous number of special attack EVs to OHKO said SDer.

I wonder if this post falls in the "something realistic vs something idealistic" category. <_< Not sure if I have said anything to the effect "I told you so" though lol.

No, I agree with you here actually. Those threats more than justify the bulky water show.

All of these except scizor (whose threat is comparable to metagross/lucario) were top threats on suspect ladder before platinum, with bulky waters huge to stop them, and zapdos/celebi were also everywhere in part just to deal with the bulky waters.

For that reason I think my point about bulky water's ability even in the face of Shaymin S added is valid.

LGY may word it 'they "help" counter "prevalent threats," in the metagame,' but I'd word it, 'They're a "major threat" to blocking an offensive with very little that can threaten them.' to put the emphasis not on the offensive power of salamence/scizor, but the over-powering defensive power of bulky waters.