Why is OU metagame so centralized?

[Xrinix]

I`ve been battling for a long time, and something I`ve noticed is that most of the teams has at least two legnedaries and two pokemon with a total stats of 600 ( for example: Tyranitar, Metagross, Salamence, etc...) , which gives the OU metagame a great centralization, and by consecuense no creativity in most teams, wich are always built like this:

Lead Pokemon
Legendary Sweeper
Legendary Wall
Metagross/Tyranitar/Salamence/Dragonite
Metagross/Tyranitar/Salamence/Dragonite
Random Pokemon

So maybe the best thing to do, should be to limit the use of legendary pokemon in a team, to one, and why not, also limit pokemon such as Metagross / Tyranitar / Salamence / Dragonite to one, which will give the OU metagame a lot more creativity, and stop the centralization which really affect many of us.

* This is my personal suggestion, and opinion, so if you wish to do some comments please try not to flame me ... , thanks for your attention, oh and by the way... my main language is spanish, so I´m sorry if I have some grammar mistakes. ^-^*

[Bourbon]

Um, unless you've been under a rock, you should know the standard OU team is Heatran, Zapdos, Scizor, Salamence, Skymin and bulky water.

[Tingaling]

Originally Posted by Fat skiddle

Um, unless you've been under a rock, you should know the standard OU team is Heatran, Zapdos, Scizor, Salamence, Skymin and bulky water.

I second his under a rock-ness. The team you describe is completely off of what the norm is. And seriously, what description is "lead pokemon"? a suicide lead? sleeper lead? bulkygyra lead? dualscreen? the list is endless

[ViVi]

Despite the fact that what Skiddle says is pretty much correct..in reply to teh OP, Dragonite doesnt break the top 30 usages in september in either ladder, and I dont know how many times Ive said this, 'Legendary Pokemon' is a in-game term that is completely irrelevant to competetive play, in fact a good number of legends are pretty bad.

That means that the term "legendary Pokemon' doesn't imply 'top-tier Pokemon' and trying to instill a rule limiting the ammount of legends you can use would be of little use, as, once again, a good number of legends aren't even very good..

The final nit-pick of your post that I have is 'Lead Pokemon', how is that even a point in your argument? Theres how many different leads that are viable??

[petrie911]

An outright ban on all pokemon with 600 or more BST (excepting Slaking and Regigigas for obvious reasons) would have an interesting effect on the game. It would promptly end the suspect testing, as all suspects have 600 or more BST, and get rid of a fair number of OU threats, including Sala, Skymin, and Heatran. Wobb would probably still end up with a ban, but that's for entirely different reasons.

Not that I necessarily support such a thing, but it would simplify things a bit.

[ViVi]

It would simplify things, but it would be stupid. Its something that isnt even worth discussing. Play more UU

What really needs to be done is have a system implemented that tiers Pokemon based on their actual capabilities, not usage, because that would add alot more Pokemon to the UU tier (Tentacruel..), which would in turn allow everyone to play OU, if they chose, with all its heavy hitters, then have a greater amount of less 'over-whelmingly powerful' Pokemon available to play in UU.

[maddog]

The main reason that the OU metagame is centralized right now is everybody is still trying out all the changes they got from Platinum. Scizor is a strong threat, but since its new introduction of Bullet Punch people have been putting it way higher than it probably should be. Zapdos getting Heat Wave is nice, and it puts him higher on popularity with people struggling to find counters for it (hint hint CM raikou). They are still trying out all the cool changes Plantium brought, but eventually people will adjust and start finding new threats in the mess. For example, the Rotom forms can fill a huge niche, Tyranitar can take care of Zapdos, Cune and Gyara deal with Scizor effectively, Heatran really is overrated, and Shaymin-S, well...

Right now the metagame underwent some huge changes. It will take some time for it to settle down, and if that's what your sick of seeing in OU, the work on some new ideas and new strageties. It won't stay like this for too much longer.

The solution isn't really to start talking about bans or anything, aside from testing Shaymin-S on the Suspect. I reckon that once the analysises are taken care of we can start to make since of it all.

[gorm]

man im tired of this kinda assertation. huge new threats have been added and changed teambuilding forever, but that doesnt mean the metagame is centralized since its in a highly volatile sstate (i.e. everyone's like DAMN lookit these strong mons! im just gonna throw in 5 that cover the bases well offensively and call it a team)

"new" stall teams/counter offensive teams are JUST starting to emerge really, let the metagame settle down before making outrageous claims.

it's really too early to discuss the metagame like it's at equilibrium at this moment imo, there is too much going on

[Chileno4Live]

To be honest i find this metagame good as it is now, especially if Deoxys-E gets banned to Ubers.

Some people spam the OU/OU tier pokemon, like Salamence and Metagross. They are strong pokemon and used by any1. Despite they are used by any1 means that you can run a counter effectively in your team, so that if you find Salamence/Metagross you can easily defeat it.

Also, how you think that how are the teams made isn't true. I mean no1 looks if they want a legendary sweeper or something i mean they only find a good sweeper which fits in their team. Same goes for a legendary wall.

Like ViVi said, Legendary is only an in-game thing, has nothing to do with standard play as the ''legendary'' pokemon can be weaker than a normal pokemon, Garchomp for example. also some legendaries are weak like Regigigas.

Although i like your idea of changing the metagame, it isn't going to work out. Sorry =/

[Thorns]

Originally Posted by Fat Xrinix

I`ve been battling for a long time, and something I`ve noticed is that most of the teams has at least two legnedaries and two pokemon with a total stats of 600 ( for example: Tyranitar, Metagross, Salamence, etc...) , which gives the OU metagame a great centralization, and by consecuense no creativity in most teams, wich are always built like this:

As I've stated before, new threats mean new counters, which means new teams and more creativity. There's no basis on which to state that the metagame is centralised.
Lead Pokemon
Legendary Sweeper
Legendary Wall
Metagross/Tyranitar/Salamence/Dragonite
Metagross/Tyranitar/Salamence/Dragonite
Random Pokemon

Obviously there's a lead Pokemon. What lead is it? A Suicide Lead? Also, the bog standard team consists of Heatran/Zapdos/Salamence/Scizor/Suicune (or any bulky water really)/Skymin.

So maybe the best thing to do, should be to limit the use of legendary pokemon in a team, to one, and why not, also limit pokemon such as Metagross / Tyranitar / Salamence / Dragonite to one, which will give the OU metagame a lot more creativity, and stop the centralization which really affect many of us.

This is a terrible idea. The last thing Pokemon needs is making more, perfectly viable Pokemon restricted, or semi-uber.

Whilst I appreciate your opinion, I must still state that most of it is incorrect.

[X-Act]

Every metagame is centralised, actually. Even if you ban all 600 BST Pokemon, the resulting metagame would still be centralised... maybe even more centralised than it was before.

[1059860]

Originally Posted by Fat skiddle

Um, unless you've been under a rock, you should know the standard OU team is Heatran, Zapdos, Scizor, Salamence, Skymin and bulky water.

True that. Also Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Metagross are often used in Sandstorm teams.

What would happen to a metagame if the following Pokemon are banned?
* All OU Legendaries (thus not include Shaymin land form, Articuno, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Regigigas, Mesprit, Entei and Moltres)
* Tyranitar
* Metagross
* Salamence
* Scizor
* Uxie (due to semi-similarities to Cresselia)
* All Ubers.

It'd be much more diverse, although it may center to Dragonite, Flygon, Bronzong, Rotom-Other Forms, and Kingdra?

My current team is Zapdos, Rotom-H, Salamence, Shaymin-S, Suicune and Scizor, lol... Just different is Rotom-H in place of Heatran.

Originally Posted by Fat X-Act

Every metagame is centralised, actually. Even if you ban all 600 BST Pokemon, the resulting metagame would still be centralised... maybe even more centralised than it was before.

I doubt it. There isn't anything to overpower with. Teams are in generally more tanky, and not many things can completely sweep at least 5/6 on a team like Scizor after 1 SD (say if you killed the counter beforehand) or Salamence.

I wonder if it's possible to create a ladder where those Pokemon above are banned, and maybe Dragonite too if just all 600 BST are banned, or all Legendary as well if that's a must. Although the list of choices is smaller, the game would most definitely be different... Just a thought.

[the pugilist]

Originally Posted by Fat 1059860

I doubt it. There isn't anything to overpower with. Teams are in generally more tanky, and not many things can completely sweep at least 5/6 on a team like Scizor after 1 SD (say if you killed the counter beforehand) or Salamence.

UU lacks anything with 600 BST yet it is still agruably centralized.

[Calciphoce]

completely agreeing with gorm here and that's why i haven't been laddering much. i could make a team one day and the next it would be obsolete. like gorm and others have said, let the meta quiet down a little first. it needs to re-stabilize.

[Darkmalice]

Originally Posted by Fat skiddle

Um, unless you've been under a rock, you should know the standard OU team is Heatran, Zapdos, Scizor, Salamence, Skymin and bulky water.

Agreed, and most are due to the standardised metagame. Heatran, Zapdos and Scizor are for Skymin. Bulky water and Zapdos are great Scizor counters, and Bulky water is also a good Salamance counter. Heatran works well if swaps in correctly and Salamance.

I think its absurd to ban legendaries and pokemon just due to their stats. Why ban Articuno when its UU. Scizor is so common and he doesnt have those 600 stats or legendary status. Maybe just Skymin, it lower the centralisation, even Scizor usage will drop as he was a good revenge killer and seed flare absorber.

[Kietharr]

Originally Posted by Fat skiddle

Um, unless you've been under a rock, you should know the standard OU team is Heatran, Zapdos, Scizor, Salamence, Skymin and bulky water.

That's actually similar to what he said, legend, legend, random pokemon, base 600, legend. Bulky water is usually a Suicune, Swampert, or Vaporeon, one of which is also a legend.

Not that it matters whether a pokemon is legendary or not, but of course he has a point, people will always use the best pokemon available and generally, the legends have high stat totals and strong moves, making them appealing when building a team, especially on shoddy where a perfect IV'd correct nature legend is always available when in some cases (Suicune and other runners in particular) they are virtually impossible to find in game.

[Glen ^^]

lol Garchomp.

People cried "centralization!!" to ban him, now the game is even worse. Needs some SD Outrage to stop those boring, Platinum generation teams.

[Captain Falcon]

This is why i prefer G/S/C so much. It isn't hyper-offensive, hax-based and teams are a little more varied.

[Marisa Kirisame]

How would banning Pokémon decentralize the metagame?

Banning Pokémon will just allow other Pokemon to come in to replace it and maybe those that would normally have trouble getting around that Pokémon too! I'm sure you all can find an example of this.

Allowing Garchomp back in wouldn't change anything either, all it would do is give you more Garchomps and less Heatrans then more Scizor and then we're back at square one.

[Astamatitos]

DP OU hasn't even made a full circle around itself so it's too early to bother about the metagame.

Ever since Chomp was banned i've been seeing a lot more innovative teams in the ladder, now if the 5 aforementioned Pokemon are popular at the moment this is a matter to change as it is most probably a fad, people want to try the new platinum additions and create new combos that couldn't be done as succesfully earlier. I myself use none of them in my main team.

[Chou Toshio]

Originally Posted by Fat skiddle

Um, unless you've been under a rock, you should know the standard OU team is Heatran, Zapdos, Scizor, Salamence, Skymin and bulky water.

Though to be fair, even before platinum and before we banned garchomp, the standard team on suspect ladder was Heatran, Zapdos, Bronzong/Metagross, Salamence, Celebi, and Bulky Water. >>

Originally Posted by Fat darknessmalice

Agreed, and most are due to the standardised metagame. Heatran, Zapdos and Scizor are for Skymin. Bulky water and Zapdos are great Scizor counters, and Bulky water is also a good Salamance counter. Heatran works well if swaps in correctly and Salamance. Skymin S and Zapdos are needed to take down the enemy bulky water

I helped fix your post.

You know damn well that even without Skymin around Heatran, Zapdos and Scizor would be at the top, Zapdos probably coming in even higher if Skymin were gone. Like I said, suspect already showed signs of converging on heatran and zapdos even before platinum came out. Before Skymin, Celebi was everywhere to help against the enemy bulky water, but of course that was part of what forced teams to all be "offensive tank," with little room for truly offensive teams or even true defensive teams.

Based on #s alone, Suspect Ladder was more centralized than standard, and the pokemon popular now were already rapidly gaining popularity. Platinum just happened to enhance many of the pokemon that smogoners were already starting to focus on . . .

[Kira]

Originally Posted by Fat Glen ^^

lol Garchomp.

People cried "centralization!!" to ban him, now the game is even worse. Needs some SD Outrage to stop those boring, Platinum generation teams.

So then you want the metagame to once again revolve entirely around Garchomp? At least now it is revolving around a myriad of Pokemon (Skymin, Heatran, Scizor, Zapdos) rather than a single Pokemon.

[ViVi]

Originally Posted by Fat ChouToshio

Though to be fair, even before platinum and before we banned garchomp, the standard team on suspect ladder was Heatran, Zapdos, Bronzong/Metagross, Salamence, Celebi, and Bulky Water. >>



I helped fix your post.

You know damn well that even without Skymin around Heatran, Zapdos and Scizor would be at the top, Zapdos probably coming in even higher if Skymin were gone. Like I said, suspect already showed signs of converging on heatran and zapdos even before platinum came out. Before Skymin, Celebi was everywhere to help against the enemy bulky water, but of course that was part of what forced teams to all be "offensive tank," with little room for truly offensive teams or even true defensive teams.

Based on #s alone, Suspect Ladder was more centralized than standard, and the pokemon popular now were already rapidly gaining popularity. Platinum just happened to enhance many of the pokemon that smogoners were already starting to focus on . . .

In my opinion, while the numbers may state otherwise, I really feel like alot more Pokemon were viable without Garchomp, things that rely on Thunderwave (Pory-2, for example) maybe didnt become OU overnight but are alot more usefull.

Please note that is just a small sample of what I believe is more viable without Garchomp, I dont have time to list everything. I think the reason the suspect ladder ebcame more over centralized was because players were trying to figure out what was going to fit into Garchomps niche of being the end-all sweeper best.

[jrrrrrrr]

This topic is pointless because every metagame in every tier in every video game ever made is centralized. How can you have a game without a central point to base your strategy around....

You say that "OU is too centralized" without actually saying what "too centralized" means, without backing it up with any EVIDENCE, and without even saying if that is a bad thing.

Besides, UU and Ubers are significantly worse in terms of centralization. UU is completely broken with things like Clefable, Venusaur and Miltank running around, Ubers is just awful. If anything, you should be praising OU for being less centralized in comparison.

There isnt anything to discuss here. "OU is centralized". Well, no shit.

[Black Buddha]

Originally Posted by Fat Puggy

UU lacks anything with 600 BST yet it is still agruably centralized.

I play UU but I cant call it centralized. Sure there are some top sweepers like Primeape, Toxicroak, Jynx, and walls like Claydol and Steelix, but its not lke every team has one fo those( except for maybe CLaydol). Thats because there are many viable pokemon UU, whereas with all the threats and walls in OU, a lot less pokemon are viable, either because they are outclassed or just too weak.