Stratagem Analysis Workshop

[Hyra]

Originally Posted by Fat crobatchop

But can anyone solve this problem for "Rockmon"?

Metagross/Scizor --- Bullet Punch --- OHKO
Hitmon___/ Breloom --- Mach Punch --- OHKO

etc.

So how is rockmon going to deal with those?

Hit the Steels with Flamethrower on the switch.

Switch out of the moves if they are left alive. It's not like you are Pursuit weak (although Metagross Pursuit still hurts you).

[Beej]

Originally Posted by Fat crobatchop

But can anyone solve this problem for "Rockmon"?

Metagross/Scizor --- Bullet Punch --- OHKO
Hitmon___/ Breloom --- Mach Punch --- OHKO

etc.

So how is rockmon going to deal with those?

My Rockmon set can survive a Scizor/Metagross Bullet Punch thanks to Babiri Berry.

[crobatchop]

Originally Posted by Fat SkarmBlissCounter

[SET]

[SET]
name: Rocks and Boom
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Explosion
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Ancient Beam
item: Focus Sash
nature: Naive
ability: Levitate
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

Lay down rocks and blow up. vs Azelf you can lay down rocks and presumably so will they then you can kill it before it kills you with Shadow Ball or survive the explosion with focus sash

Then you blow up whatever you see next. If they bring in a ghost, you at least take a good chunk out of them with shadow ball.

Do you think Atk EVs are worth mentioning for guaranteed OHKOs such as Blisss, etc?

This is not auctually a quote LOL

[crobatchop]

Originally Posted by Fat Beej

My Rockmon set can survive a Scizor/Metagross Bullet Punch thanks to Babiri Berry.

But you are only allowed to hold one item at one time.

So with MANY +priority atks (Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch) (VAcumm Wave sucks because of sandstorm), it is very hard to avoid.

EDIT: And it is actually sad if there isnt a way for this. What about having sb set up reflect before sending Rocky out?

[ChronoSquare]

Originally Posted by Fat SkarmBlissCounter

[SET]
name: Rocks and Boom
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Explosion
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Ancient Beam
item: Focus Sash
nature: Naive
ability: Levitate
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

Lay down rocks and blow up. vs Azelf you can lay down rocks and presumably so will they then you can kill it before it kills you with Shadow Ball or survive the explosion with focus sash

Then you blow up whatever you see next. If they bring in a ghost, you at least take a good chunk out of them with shadow ball.

Wait wait wait wait a SECOND. Since when does Focus Sash prevent explosion from killing yourself...?

[yourDeadGrandad]

It doesn't. I think they mean Azelf's explosion.

[ChronoSquare]

Originally Posted by Fat yourDeadGrandad

It doesn't. I think they mean Azelf's explosion.

If that is the case, then re-wording of that is in order...

[eric the espeon]

Originally Posted by Fat crobatchop

But can anyone solve this problem for "Rockmon"?

Metagross/Scizor --- Bullet Punch --- OHKO
Hitmon___/ Breloom --- Mach Punch --- OHKO

etc.

So how is rockmon going to deal with those?

The best way I see is to sub on any predicted switch then hit what they bring in with the best attack you can. Scizor should be 1KOd by Flamethrower and Meta will take heavy damage (and probably be locked into BP by a choice item giving you an easy switch), not sure how much Breloom would take from Flamethrower but it would probably be close enough to a KO and Mach Punch is not that common on it, the Hitmon's are not exactly common in OU but... yea they should be decent counters.

Babari Berry... Why? LO+Substitute seems like a much more cost effective way to beat its counters and can be useful when faced by a non steel type.

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat crobatchop

But can anyone solve this problem for "Rockmon"?

Metagross/Scizor --- Bullet Punch --- OHKO
Hitmon___/ Breloom --- Mach Punch --- OHKO

etc.

So how is rockmon going to deal with those?

Well, lets try it via Stochipokemon, shall we?

MgBp + Rm -> NR
ScBp + Rm -> NR
HmMp + Rm -> NR
BeMp + Rm -> NR

It appears there is no solution. That doesn't mean there NEEDS to be one. Sub works as a safeguard (Granted you would have a hard time OHKOing the mentioned Pokemon save Scizor/Breloom without Calm Mind). However, its good that there are these many checks. Its very easy to find a check to put on your team, meaning that this (in theory) isn't overcentralizing.

[Beej]

Originally Posted by Fat crobatchop

But you are only allowed to hold one item at one time.

So with MANY +priority atks (Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch) (VAcumm Wave sucks because of sandstorm), it is very hard to avoid.

EDIT: And it is actually sad if there isnt a way for this. What about having sb set up reflect before sending Rocky out?

I really don't think it's sad if there's no way around this. It's a frail special sweeper, we knew that while we were making it. My set can situationally beat one of the most prominent forms of this priority revenge killing, which is STAB Bullet Punch. >> What more do you want, really? This isn't a one man army.

[tennisace]

Thats the thing, its situational. Personally I would just go LO and not worry about Scizor or use Expert Belt/Leftovers and use Sub.

[Beej]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace0227

Thats the thing, its situational. Personally I would just go LO and not worry about Scizor or use Expert Belt/Leftovers and use Sub.

I dunno man, it basically removes the ability to revenge you unless your opponent is carrying something obscure, like Mach Punch Breloom or Azumarill, or unless something faster that's a threat is still alive. That's generally more useful than more powerful attacks. If I didn't run Babiri Berry I'd probably be running Expert Belt anyway, because it hits almost as hard and you don't have to put up with that nasty recoil.

[crobatchop]

Originally Posted by Fat Beej

I really don't think it's sad if there's no way around this. It's a frail special sweeper, we knew that while we were making it. My set can situationally beat one of the most prominent forms of this priority revenge killing, which is STAB Bullet Punch. >> What more do you want, really? This isn't a one man army.

What you are saying is that it is DESIGNED to be defeated by:

Azumarril/Floatzel's AJ
Szicor/Metagross's BP
Breloom/Hitmon...'s MP


?

Also, another off-topic question: Why do quotes have to have FAT?

[X-Act]

He means that it is designed not to be unbeatable. We don't create Pokemon that cannot be countered by any strategy.

[Elevator Music]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace0227

Personally a mention on the other SubCM set would be better. Also, you have 4 hp evs too many. Weather Ball is just too risky with all the Kingdra running around. If Revenankh comes in, your screwed also.

You can just attack Kingdra though. If you Sub or CM on the first turn you should beat it anyways. I don't know how you fair against Revenankh, but you can probably beat him too with Earth Power, since you should be using Ancient Beam/Weather Ball against him anyways.

[DougJustDoug**]

Let's get this updated and put into the Strategy Pokedex sticky.

[gorm]

babiri berry ddttar is completely viable, why not stratagem =|]
as long as you're investing in a setup, since babiri allows you to run a 3rd attack instead of sub on the cm set

[eric the espeon]

name: Lure
move 1: Paleo Wave
move 2: Flamethrower
move 3: Substitute
move 3: Explosion
item: Life Orb
ability: Levitate
nature: Hasty
evs: 252 SpA / 4 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<Great for taking out Blissey/Scizor, sub on any turn you think your opponent will switch and to scout for Protect Bliss. Stuff about Exploding when Sub and LO Damage start to add up.>

Yes I have play tested it, yes it does work pretty well.
Clears the way for another Special Sweeper very nicely, and can pull of little sweeps of its own or revenge kill effectively.

[Beej]

Without a sufficient investment in Attack, your set will not OHKO Blissey eric. You will need about 176 EVs to OHKO with Life Orb and no residual damage.

[Elevator Music]

Speaking purely for Calm 0/252 Blissey, iirc you need an Attack stat of 166 to OHKO with Life Orb.

Not sure how many EVs that is off the top of my head though. EDIT- 40 with a neutral nature.

[tennisace]

Are you sure eric? It seems like that would be a waste of Stratagem's potential. Personally I would use a Mixtar for that purpose, so Stratagem could sweep unhindered.

Anyway, the order of sets should be CM or Sub +3 attacks (Levitate), CM or Sub +3 attacks (Tech), 4 Attacks (Levitate), 4 Attacks (Tech), Sub/CM, Choice (Levitate), Choice (Tech), Suicide Lead, Metal Sound. Personally, Levitate is much better than Tech for the simple reason that you can beat Heatran all the time, as opposed to Scarftran beating you with Tech.

[SET]
name: 3 Attacks (Levitate)
move 1: Calm Mind / Substitute
move 2: Paleo Wave
move 3: Flamethrower / Ice Beam
move 3: Energy Ball / Earth Power / Focus Blast
item: Life Orb
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Utilizing Stratagem's copious Special Attack and Speed, this set focuses on sweeping the opponent's team once their special wall is gone.

As Stratagem's most reliable STAB move, after a Calm Mind, Paleo Wave will wreak havoc on anything that does not resist Rock. Energy Ball is useful to hit Swampert and other bulky Waters and Grounds who otherwise wall you. Flamethrower is Stratagem's best option against Scizor, who threatens with STAB Bullet Punch off an excellent attack stat; however, Stratagem can only win an encounter with Scizor if it Flamethrowers on the switch-in. Focus Blast hits Steels as well, though its shaky accuracy is doubtful considering Stratagem's less than stellar defenses. Although it also hurts the flying Dragons, Ice Beam is often unnecessary, as they are already covered by Paleo Wave; it is more useful to damage bulky Ground-types such as Hippowdon. Earth Power can be used to fill in the gaps, hitting non-Levitating Steel-types for super effective damage.

Substitute is another option over Calm Mind, protecting against revenge kills while loosing the sheer power of Calm Mind.

[SET]
name: 3 Attacks (Technician)
move 1: Calm Mind / Substitute
move 2: Ancientpower
move 3: Flamethrower
move 3: Giga Drain / Vacuum Wave / Air Cutter
item: Life Orb
ability: Technician
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

~WIP~

[SET]
name: 4 Attacks (Levitate)
move 1: Paleo Wave
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Energy Ball / Ice Beam
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
ability: Levitate
evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
This Stratagem boasts better coverage than the Calm Mind sets, however it will not be able to power up and therefore is more vulnerable to some opponents.

While the first two moves are pretty much set as they give coverage against every OU threat bar Bronzong, the last two slots are really up for grabs. Energy Ball hits Bulky Ground types and Bulky Waters harder than any of Stratagem's other options, while Ice beam hits Dragons hard. Bear in mind that Paleo Wave will hit flying types anyway, so Ice Beam is largely unnecessary.

[SET]
name: 4 Attacks (Technician)
move 1: Ancientpower
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Giga Drain / Vacuum Wave
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
ability: Levitate
evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
~WIP~

[SET]
name: Sub CM
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Paleo Wave / Weather Ball
move 4: Earth Power / Flamethrower
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
ability: Levitate
evs: 64 HP / 96 SpA / 96 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

This set plays much like Sub/CM Raikou, except with much better speed and special attack, in exchange for less durability. This set is best used in Sandstorm, because <Rockmon> will become a very fast special tank with all the boosts. The strategy is simple. First, switch in on something you can use as set-up bait, such as a choiced Earthquake or Earth Power. Then, Sub as they bring in a revenge killer or wall. If they bring in something like Blissey, you can continue to set up on it, alternating between Substitute and Calm Mind. If they bring in Scizor, attack it and get out once it breaks your sub.

Paleo Wave and Earth Power provide the best coverage, but if bulky waters and Tyranitar aren't a problem, you can run Flamethrower over Earth Power to hit Scizor and Bronzong harder. Be aware that without a sub up, both will still kill you. Weather Ball is a more powerful option than Paleo Wave in Sandstorm, but be aware that when Sandstorm isn't running, Weather Ball is a Base 50 power Normal-type move.

The EVs allow for a leftovers number +1, allowing you to use Substitute five consecutive times before having to switch out. Max speed is needed to revenge kill Shaymin-s, since the only things faster than you are Ninjask, Electrode, and scarfed Pokemon.



[SET]
name: Choice (Levitate)
move 1: Paleo Wave
move 2: Earth Power
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Energy Ball / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid / Modest
ability: Levitate
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
~WIP~

Notably outspeeds Timid Scarfgar and Modest scarfmin whilst retaining a sexy 372 SpA. Functions as a revenge killer (duh).

[SET]
name: Choice (Technician)
move 1: Ancientpower
move 2: Flamethrower
move 3: Giga Drain
move 4: Vacuum Wave / Air Cutter / Hidden Power Fighting
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid / Modest
ability: Technician
evs: 252 SpA / 6 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
~rewriting~


[SET]
name: Suicide Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Explosion
move 3: Paleo Wave
move 4: Shadow Ball / Earth Power
item: Focus Sash
nature: Naive
ability: Levitate
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
~WIP~


[SET]
name: Metal Sound
move 1: Metal Sound
move 2: Ancientpower
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Vacuum Wave / Hidden Power Fighting
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
ability: Technician
evs: 252 SpA / 6 HP / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
~rewriting~

[eric the espeon]

With a LO you get easily enough to 1KO Bliss with Explode.
With no boost and no EVs it has 156 Atk, with a LO boost that is far more than the 166 needed.

Maybe a specific number is needed for Bold/252 HP variants.

And that Strata is not meant to sweep, but to give an ally a great chance to sweep.
It takes out its two most common counters almost 100% of the time (Bliss and Scizor) as well as retaining the ability to revenge kill a large number of threats with its STAB move.

Explosion is highly underrated on Strata, something with 130 Base speed that can be walled by a good few Pokemon (depending on the set) just loves the ability to go off with a bang.

[tennisace]

The problem is, Scizor resists explosion, as does Heatran, as does Tyranitar. So the only thing you're hitting is Blissey really. I'd just stick it as an other option on the 3 attacks set, since its the same set really.

[darkie]

It needs 166 with Life Orb. Can you please make sure your information is correct before posting about it, eric.

166 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (500 base power): 648 - 763 (99.54% - 117.2%) | Multipliers: 1.3

199 Atk vs 130 Def & 714 HP (500 base power): 711 - 837 (99.58% - 117.23%) | Multipliers: 1.3

[latinoheat]

Fire blast could be an option on the suicide lead, it is a 2hko on standard bronzong, flamethrower just falls short of a 2hko.