Shaymin-S Vote

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Voted OU. I've both used Skymin and faced Skymin in all variants, and every single time it has proven to be nowhere near as effective as everyone makes it out to be. The luck factor requred for it to be useful is so high that in almost 100% of cases, I'd rather use a more reliable sweeper.

[Philip7086]

Originally Posted by Fat SkarmBlissCounter

I don't feel like turning this into a massive discussion thread but I don't agree with some of the reasoning here.



This didn't affect Deoxys-E having its most use whilst it was a suspect and obviously was going to be banned. And it didn't stop Garchomp being number 1. The Skymin voting period was a month so its hardly short notice anyway.



How did Skymin take out a 6 CM Jirachi unless it got a critical hit? It won't win with Air Slash flinches recovering less than Leftovers so and if you are saying Skymin is uber based on it getting a CH then that you are really not using common sense.

Let me try to break down the reasoning for you then.

Garchomp was already OU for over a year, and everybody already had a Garchomp team far before it was even decided that Chomp should be tested.

Deoxys had it's own suspect ladder which you HAD to participate in, to be eligible to vote. Using Deo for easy wins to meet voting criterea quickly only sounds like common sense to me.

The Skymin vote is much different from any other one previously for two main reasons. First, there was no suspect ladder to differentiate a non-Skymin metagame with one which allows Skymin. Second, Skymin was introduced into an atmosphere in which many people just assumed it would be Uber. Because of this, like I said, a lot of people just did not make teams w/ Skymin, because they did not want to waste their time on something they thought would be voted Uber in the near future. It's one thing to make a team for testing purposes on a suspect ladder, but it's another to make a real team that would hopefully last a while.

I hope this clears up your confusion on mine, and other people's reasoning.

[Kevin Garrett]

OU

[Plus]

Time to break the 24-24 tie with my vote.

Uber

Seriously, the amount of shit it can pull off with Serene Grace and 127 Speed is plain ridiculous to me.

[Huntofthelion]

From the number of people who complain about hax, I would think someone like this would have been landslide Uber.

[fede125955]

*waits for someone who voted OU to lose a major tourney to skymin via hax and use profane sentences to express their anger when they lost to luck

[Limitless]

Voted OU.

[Aeolus]

Just to get this out of the way now... if the vote is exceptionally close, we reserve the right to forestall a decision until further notice.

[rmega]

Voted uber. The reasoning should be obvious.

[Philip7086]

Originally Posted by Fat Aeolus

Just to get this out of the way now... if the vote is exceptionally close, we reserve the right to forestall a decision until further notice.

Yeah this is pretty damn close. Ubers should be up by 2 though, if idiot Battulz didn't misclick -__-

[Faint]

Yay for me breaking the tie at 25-25! Go Ubers! ^_^

[sbc]

Originally Posted by Fat stone_cold22

Common sense?

Skymin uses Air slash JIRACHI FLINCHES! Losses 9%

Did I explain it clearly enough for you?

They both also had sub and leech seed which didn't help my cause.

Still not convincing. there's a 0.118% chance of Shaymin flinching Jirachi 12 times in a row. There's a 6.25% of a critical hit. So basically there's a 53 times greater chance of a CH happening than that. If Heatran came in and CH'd with Fire Blast would that be uber?

Originally Posted by Fat Philip7086

Let me try to break down the reasoning for you then.

Garchomp was already OU for over a year, and everybody already had a Garchomp team far before it was even decided that Chomp should be tested.

Deoxys had it's own suspect ladder which you HAD to participate in, to be eligible to vote. Using Deo for easy wins to meet voting criterea quickly only sounds like common sense to me.

If Skymin leads to easy wins why didn't people whore it on the ladder to simply progress up the leaderboard regardless of meeting the criteria?

The Skymin vote is much different from any other one previously for two main reasons. First, there was no suspect ladder to differentiate a non-Skymin metagame with one which allows Skymin. Second, Skymin was introduced into an atmosphere in which many people just assumed it would be Uber. Because of this, like I said, a lot of people just did not make teams w/ Skymin, because they did not want to waste their time on something they thought would be voted Uber in the near future. It's one thing to make a team for testing purposes on a suspect ladder, but it's another to make a real team that would hopefully last a while.

I hope this clears up your confusion on mine, and other people's reasoning.

Still a month is a long time, do people spend like a week making a team or something? I would imagine that competitive players could easily get to top 10 within a couple of weeks let alone a month so why wouldn't they use Skymin to further their needs if only for a month, after all the metagame shifts almost bi-monthly and some teams because obsolete anyway.

Originally Posted by Fat Philip7086

Maybe because the reqs weren't even hard to meet for the Skymin vote? Why would any logical person put serious effort in making a team that they thought would have to be thrown away in a few weeks? The only reason would be to meet voting criteria, which in this case was easy as hell anyways, without the help of Skymin.

As far as the time it takes to make a team, I would say that for a really great team to be made, it takes a minimum of a week, when testing periods are also factored in. Then you make necessary alterations as well. Of course, this is for serious team building. However, why would I waste my time making a Skymin team if I wasn't sure of it's future status?

You clearly forget to remember when Shaymin was number 17 in September stats despite having been implemented for less than half a month. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthr...ght=statistics

Clearly there wasn't this reluctance to use Skymin.

[Huntofthelion]

Originally Posted by Fat Aeolus

Just to get this out of the way now... if the vote is exceptionally close, we reserve the right to forestall a decision until further notice.

Interesting this comes out when uber starts to get a small lead

[Little Green Yoda]

Originally Posted by Fat Philip7086

The Skymin vote is much different from any other one previously for two main reasons. First, there was no suspect ladder to differentiate a non-Skymin metagame with one which allows Skymin. Second, Skymin was introduced into an atmosphere in which many people just assumed it would be Uber. Because of this, like I said, a lot of people just did not make teams w/ Skymin, because they did not want to waste their time on something they thought would be voted Uber in the near future. It's one thing to make a team for testing purposes on a suspect ladder, but it's another to make a real team that would hopefully last a while.

This goes back to the biggest limitation of this voting process: voter bias. We need people to truly test whether or not a certain suspect is uber; having people ladder enough to qualify for voting just so they can voice their pre-formed opinion on the matter doesn't do anybody any good.

People who believe the suspect is uber should be laddering with the best possible team utilizing the suspect despite the possibility of that team becoming obsolete by the end of the month. Doing so would help persuade other players to vote for uber, simply by beating their brains out with said team.

As such, I've voted OU because I didn't see a single team abuse Skymin to the point where I believed it to be uber. That and I think it will be an easier task to revisit a ban as opposed to revisiting an unban.

[HECTORtu]

Voted Uber.. and dang.. 27-26 O_O

[Bologo]

OU for me.

[Philip7086]

Originally Posted by Fat SkarmBlissCounter

Still not convincing. there's a 0.118% chance of Shaymin flinching Jirachi 12 times in a row. There's a 6.25% of a critical hit. So basically there's a 53 times greater chance of a CH happening than that. If Heatran came in and CH'd with Fire Blast would that be uber?



Still a month is a long time, do people spend like a week making a team or something? I would imagine that competitive players could easily get to top 10 within a couple of weeks let alone a month so why wouldn't they use Skymin to further their needs if only for a month, after all the metagame shifts almost bi-monthly and some teams because obsolete anyway.

Maybe because the reqs weren't even hard to meet for the Skymin vote? Why would any logical person put serious effort in making a team that they thought would have to be thrown away in a few weeks? The only reason would be to meet voting criteria, which in this case was easy as hell anyways, without the help of Skymin.

As far as the time it takes to make a team, I would say that for a really great team to be made, it takes a minimum of a week, when testing periods are also factored in. Then you make necessary alterations as well. Of course, this is for serious team building. However, why would I waste my time making a Skymin team if I wasn't sure of it's future status?

[Philip7086]

Originally Posted by Fat Little Green Yoda

This goes back to the biggest limitation of this voting process: voter bias. We need people to truly test whether or not a certain suspect is uber; having people ladder enough to qualify for voting just so they can voice their pre-formed opinion on the matter doesn't do anybody any good.

People who believe the suspect is uber should be laddering with the best possible team utilizing the suspect despite the possibility of that team becoming obsolete by the end of the month. Doing so would help persuade other players to vote for uber, simply by beating their brains out with said team.

As such, I've voted OU because I didn't see a single team abuse Skymin to the point where I believed it to be uber. That and I think it will be an easier to task to revisit a ban as opposed to revisiting an unban.

You actually make a good point. The bottom line for me, and many others I have spoken with, though, is that it's hard to find enough time to make a real team already, so why even potentially waste time? If there was a suspect ladder, I might have thrown something together to meet voting criteria, but there wasn't. I could have made a Skymin team for the standard ladder, just for the sake of beating into people's heads that Skymin should be uber, but I didn't feel like that would be worth my time.

I guarantee you all, however, that if this thing stays OU, we will see a significant rise in usage.

[CTI]

Send this shit to Uber

[Koenraku]

Voted OU.

[Elevator Music]

Originally Posted by Fat Philip7086

You actually make a good point. The bottom line for me, and many others I have spoken with, though, is that it's hard to find enough time to make a real team already, so why even potentially waste time? If there was a suspect ladder, I might have thrown something together to meet voting criteria, but there wasn't. I could have made a Skymin team for the standard ladder, just for the sake of beating into people's heads that Skymin should be uber, but I didn't feel like that would be worth my time.

I guarantee you all, however, that if this thing stays OU, we will see a significant rise in usage.

I'd rather not risk turning this into a discussion thread, but this point needs to be made.

The best way to prove something is broken is to go out and use it, not to just assume it will be banned.

I wasn't under the impression Wobbufett was broken until I had the unpleasant experience of battling ipl a few times. I wasn't too afraid of Deoxys until TAY whomped me with DSD. And I saw how well both of them worked and I went out and used them myself, until I found that they worked very well; too well.

I don't like this, "Oh I feel it'll be Uber why bother putting it in a team" mentality that's been going around. It's really counter-productive. At the very least by using the team you have the chance of convincing others that it may be Uber. And while it's too late to do anything about Shaymin-s, let this be a lesson for the next suspect.


Also, in regards to your last comment... I'm really tempted to vote OU just to test that theory out. In fact, I vote OU, just because I feel we'll have an easier time visitng this again if it's still in our metagame, and to see if any other strategies arise to shift less people off the fence. This is a really close vote, and I'd rather it be kept in OU on a close vote than it not be.


EDIT- I also want to point out that before I typed this post I was really not sure what way I would vote. My opinion on the matter has swayed back and forth greatly over the course of testing. I'd rather wait and see how Shaymin really settles in (which will probably take longer than 2 1/2 months or however long it's been) than predispose it to Uber. It's a lot harder to unban something than it is to ban it.

[Little Green Yoda]

Originally Posted by Fat Philip7086

You actually make a good point. The bottom line for me, and many others I have spoken with, though, is that it's hard to find enough time to make a real team already, so why even potentially waste time? If there was a suspect ladder, I might have thrown something together to meet voting criteria, but there wasn't. I could have made a Skymin team for the standard ladder, just for the sake of beating into people's heads that Skymin should be uber, but I didn't feel like that would be worth my time.

I guarantee you all, however, that if this thing stays OU, we will see a significant rise in usage.

That kind of thinking will probably lead to an increase in voting requirements in future tests. People being lazy and not putting in the effort may even sway the administration to do away with the voting process (which was lightly touched upon by Jump even if he was opposed to it).

[Plus]

Originally Posted by Fat Aeolus

Just to get this out of the way now... if the vote is exceptionally close, we reserve the right to forestall a decision until further notice.

So what's considered a close margin? :\

[Duskie]

Originally Posted by Fat Plus

So what's considered a close margin? :\

28-28? <_<

[FiveKRunner]

I voted Uber since Shaymin of all forms is banned from Nintendo's official tournaments.