CAP 6 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

[Icy Vegeta]

Even if it does have Stone Edge, that is a slot taken up that could have been used for a more benificial move it it didn't have to resort to Stone Edge just to take down Zappy because of it's weakness to TBolt. Also, Stone Edge is not 100% accurate.

[haterguy]

Originally Posted by Fat Icy Vegeta

There is great reason to choose Water/Dragon and that reason is Zapdos, and no weaknesses in the top 10. Most Zapdos have HP Grass, Heat Wave, and TBlot. HP Grass and TBolt are now neutral, and you get a x4 resist against Heat Wave. Pyroak also now has to chance against it with it's Fire stab x4 resisted.

Against Stratagem, it wins.
Against Zapdos it wins.
Against Heatran it wins.
Against Fidgit it wins.
Against Revenankh it is a toss-up.
Against Syclant is a toss-up.
Against Tyranitar it wins.
Against Blissey is dependant on Physical/Special bias.
Against Scizor it wins.

As you can see it wins against most threats, has no weaknesses to the top 10 for exchange with more neutrality. I see the no weaknesses as a more important issue. This is the only typing that can deal with Zapdos other then Water/Electric and that typing gets hit with a ground weakness.

Pretty much why I was vouching for Water/Dragon, it will hold off with everyone, it doesn't have to be everyone but it holds off 8/10 in that list.

It decentralizes the top 10 listed.

[Bogmire]

Originally Posted by Fat Atyroki

Most fighting types have access to stone edge, with the right stuff, Zapdos wouldn't be hard for this thing to take down if it was water/fighting

it'd have to be faster than zapdos otherwise zapdos will roost/pressure stall it.

[Bass]

Guys, don't go off hunting for "poll-jumpers". Normally, I would be more strict about posting possible moves as reasons to support a certain type, but I am going to be a bit more lenient about what is poll-jumping and what isn't, solely because moves ARE somewhat dependent on type, and more importantly, the concept that we are working with requires us to create a pokemon that counters/checks a specific set of other pokemon, so certain moves, if they pertain to the type, can be used as justification for supporting a certain type.

However, don't get too presumptuous. Saying that "oh, this type can't counter <pokemon> with its STAB, so it will surely get <some move>" is NOT proper justification for your secondary typing choice.

[1059860]

Why are people voting for Fighting?

Offensively:

1. Stratagem - Already covered by Water.
2. Revenankh - Fighting is completely useless.
3. Fidgit - Covered by Water; Fighting isn't very effective.
4. Tyranitar - Already covered by Water. Although Fighting is 4x effective, just for this thing isn't a good enough reason to use Fighting over Ghost.
5. Zapdos - Water is Neutral; Fighting is Not Very Effective.
6. Syclant - Both Water & Fighting are Neutral.
7. Blissey - Super Effective with Fighting, but as long the attacks are Physical, STAB Water will do fine. If it's special, Fighting wouldn't do much anyways (Try Focus Blast from Infernape/Gengar on Blissey... Doesn't work very well.)
8. Heatran - Water covers it.
9. Scizor - Both Water or Fighting are Neutral.
10. Pyroak - Both Water or Fighting are Neutral.

Now, reasons for GHOST as 2nd typing: Visit my other post at http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...3&postcount=77

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Shadow Punch is better than Shadow Claw, but why bother really if Rev gets a couple bulk ups? Also, Water Pokemon almost never get Fire moves (Exceptions: Octillary/Palkia).

Shadow Claw has higher base power.

[Icy Vegeta]

For all of you Fighting voters, do you want Togekiss to became top OU again, cause that is what you are asking.

[linton]

Flying does better then Fighting does anyway. The only issue is Zapdos which Fighting has anyway.

[haterguy]

Zapdos - Problem, but can give ability such as Shock Proof, to render all electric attacks useless... Or something...

Haha, this one is funny. This one is a problem, but you don't create an ability to render electric attacks, when you could switch out. This ONE pokemon doesn't have to hold off the entire list.

Syclant - Give it a Fire type move, deals with this AND Scizor.

That is not preventing it from attacks.. you are just hoping for a fire move.

Pyroak - Only one that is neutral, it can get a Flying or Poison type move for this...

You can't say give it this move or that, it has to hold it off and 'decentralize it' and not depend on a move.
Grass attacks will own it from Pyroak.

I'll convince Water/Dragon for some people here it is:
OFFENSIVLEY

1. Stratagem - Water
2. Revenankh - Can hold it off neutral to attacks
3. Fidgit - Water
4. Tyranitar - Water
5. Zapdos - Water or Dragon or another move
6. Syclant - Dragon / neutral
7. Blissey - Depends on Physical or Special.
8. Heatran - Water
9. Scizor - Neutral
10. Pyroak - neutral
    
    DEFENSIVLEY (as it's best to decentralize top 8-9)
11. Stratagem - Grass/Electric attacks keep it neutral to prevent super effective attacks. Which is it's main weakness, with the water type alone.
12. Revenankh - Neutral to attacks.
13. Fidgit - No problem
14. Tyranitar - Neutral to all hits, special versions wont suprise it also as fire blast, ice beam, thunderbolt, etc. won't score a super effective hit to it.
15. Zapdos - neutral to electric attacks, x4 resistance to heatwave, Neutral to HP Ice and HP Grass
16. Syclant - Resisted to some attacks
17. Blissey - It depends physically or not..
18. Heatran - x4 resistance to Fire attacks, Neutral to both HP Ice/Grass, Earth Power
19. Scizor - Resists Bullet Punch
20. Pyroak - Resists 1 STAB, holds off grass attacks nicely.
    
    
    NOTE:
    
    The only person that could hit Water/Dragon super effectiveley is Tyranitar with Dragon Claw, which is a waste movepool on T-Tar. Nothing could hit it with super effective, hence 'decentralizing' the top 10 threats nicely. Some could go HP Dragon, but it would be a waste of time..

[crobatchop]

Come on, we just don't want to have another Kingdra. Let's make something different.
I am actually fine with fighting and just water, but I go for ghost.

[chronostrike]

Here's the way I look at it.

Fidgit is already taken care of with water. All we need to do is not give it a ground weak.

Zapdos is a wash. Negating both the grass and electric weaks requires dragon or grass. Unfortunately, they both result in no useful resists. We'd have to make another Blissey for it to work, but Stratagem/Zapdos would walk all over a physical version, Revenankh/Tyranitar would destroy a special version, and a mixed wall would probably be broken or ineffectual.

Weakness to Rev is not a winning strategy for beating it, so Dark and Normal are no go. Ghost and Psychic both add a STAB option against it but also weakness to Ttar. It also requires high def to survive SS and high atk/satk to kill Rev quickly. Not being weak is just easier, not to mention (P)Haze, and doesn't get so close to broken against everything else.

Rock weak is absolutely out of the question, ergo not bug, fire, flying, or ice.

Ground weak is not as bad, but then CAP6 stops being a counter to Fidgit. It also fails hard against Tyranitar.

This leaves Fighting, Ground, and no type.

No Secondary Type isn't bad, but adding a type improves attacking options.

Ground resists Rock and is immune to thunderbolt, but Zapdos will just use HP Grass for slightly more damage.

Finally, Fighting also resists Rock and Dark, making it great to come in on Ttar and most of Gem's options. Plus, vacuum wave is an option.

In short, I see Dragon, Fighting, and Ground as the best options, and I am voting Fighting.

(Note concerning Togekiss: Togekiss is 28th on the server as of November, so increasing its usage would decentralize the metagame. Also, ice or rock moves are very plausible on this pokemon, making Togekiss an unsafe switch in.)

[darkjjak]

Originally Posted by Fat chronostrike

(Note concerning Togekiss: Togekiss is 28th on the server as of November, so increasing its usage would decentralize the metagame. Also, ice or rock moves are very plausible on this pokemon, making Togekiss an unsafe switch in.)

Exactly, that's why I'm not so worried about it having a Flying weak. Being a Water type, it'll have access to a lot of Ice type attacks.

[Icy Vegeta]

Originally Posted by Fat darkjjak

Exactly, that's why I'm not so worried about it having a Flying weak. Being a Water type, it'll have access to a lot of Ice type attacks.

Again, wasting a slot that could have been used for support/recovery/ or better attacking if combined with Dragon rather then Fighting.

[haterguy]

Originally Posted by Fat crobatchop

Come on, we just don't want to have another Kingdra. Let's make something different.
I am actually fine with fighting and just water, but I go for ghost.

Well making something different is good, but the concept is decentralizer, so it has to be Water/dragon because it decentralizes liek I said..

Also Water/fighting is poliwhirl..

Water/ghost would be new, but it wouldnt decentralize as much as dragon or fighting.

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat haterguy

Haha, this one is funny. This one is a problem, but you don't create an ability to render electric attacks, when you could switch out. This ONE pokemon doesn't have to hold off the entire list.



That is not preventing it from attacks.. you are just hoping for a fire move.



You can't say give it this move or that, it has to hold it off and 'decentralize it' and not depend on a move.
Grass attacks will own it from Pyroak.

I'll convince Water/Dragon for some people here it is:
OFFENSIVLEY

1. Stratagem - Water
2. Revenankh - Can hold it off neutral to attacks
3. Fidgit - Water
4. Tyranitar - Water
5. Zapdos - Water or Dragon or another move
6. Syclant - Dragon / neutral
7. Blissey - Depends on Physical or Special.
8. Heatran - Water
9. Scizor - Neutral
10. Pyroak - neutral
    
    DEFENSIVLEY (as it's best to decentralize top 8-9)
11. Stratagem - Grass/Electric attacks keep it neutral to prevent super effective attacks. Which is it's main weakness, with the water type alone.
12. Revenankh - Neutral to attacks.
13. Fidgit - No problem
14. Tyranitar - Neutral to all hits, special versions wont suprise it also as fire blast, ice beam, thunderbolt, etc. won't score a super effective hit to it.
15. Zapdos - neutral to electric attacks, x4 resistance to heatwave, Neutral to HP Ice and HP Grass
16. Syclant - Resisted to some attacks
17. Blissey - It depends physically or not..
18. Heatran - x4 resistance to Fire attacks, Neutral to both HP Ice/Grass, Earth Power
19. Scizor - Resists Bullet Punch
20. Pyroak - Resists 1 STAB, holds off grass attacks nicely.
    
    
    NOTE:
    
    The only person that could hit Water/Dragon super effectiveley is Tyranitar with Dragon Claw, which is a waste movepool on T-Tar. Nothing could hit it with super effective, hence 'decentralizing' the top 10 threats nicely. Some could go HP Dragon, but it would be a waste of time..

You're wasting your time, Dragon isn't going to win, but I'll take the bait!

OFFENSIVELY
Dragon adds Nothing. No pokemon in the top 10 are weak to dragon moves so the best you could of said was that some of them are neutral to Dragon. But they're all weak to or neutral to Water so offensively, Dragon is useless.

1. DEFENSIVLEY (as it's best to decentralize top 8-9)
2. Stratagem - Water is neutral to Rock, Dragon is neutral to Rock, however Fighting resists rock so if this can OHKO with STAB Aqua Jet or Stab Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave then Fighting is a much better choice.
3. Revenankh - Dragon adds nothing, neither does Fighting
4. Fidgit - Dragon adds nothing, neither does Fighting
5. Tyranitar - Dragon adds no resists whereas Fighting resists Both its STABs.
6. Zapdos - Dragon removes the Electric weak but provides no resistances to its STABs. Fighting is not good as it adds a Flying weak.
7. Syclant - Dragon adds no resists and removes the Ice resist of Water. Water/Fighting resists Both STABs.
8. Blissey - Neutral to Dragon, weak to Fighting.
9. Heatran - Water already resists Fire and is neutral to Earth so Dragon doesnt add anything except Hidden Power resists. Heatran sometimes runs Dragon Pulse so cant always switch in safely. Fighting gives SE STAB.
10. Scizor - Water already resists Bullet Punch, Dragon resists nothing extra. Water/Fighting resists Both STABs.
11. Pyroak - Water/Dragon and Water/Fighting both need stats/movepool to beat Pyroak.

Conclusion
Dragon is a Terrible offensive type and brings no new resists. The neutralities to Grass and Electric are nice, the neutrality to Ice is bad. So defensively, it's nothing special.

Fighting is a brilliant offensive type and brings very useful Bug, Dark and Rock resists. Flying and Psychic weaknesses are no biggie as only Zapdos uses Flying moves from the top 10.

[Lawman]

Honestly haterguy, Dragon/Water has crap resistances, only Water, Steel, and Fire, so even with one weakness, neutral hits can still be powerful and do a number. Offensively, Dragon is not doing anything for the top 10. I fail to see how it would be viable. I'll go through your list again.

Stratagem - Has no resists, and without priority and switching in on any move with stealth rock would likely be a 2hko unless it was very bulky, and if not it wouldn't be able to switch in more than twice.

Rev - if it ends up Physical like many want then gg here. Only typing that could counter Rev imo would be Normal/Ghost. Bulk Up and rest prevent anything without SE STAB from doing much physically.

Fidget - Nothing here really to say, water suffices but dragon does nothing to help. Really Fidget isn't going to do much back in terms of attacking, so typing alone won't do much for fidget here.

Tyranitar - STAB Stone Edge will do more than SE Dragon Claw, and no Tyranitar will be running Outrage. Dragon doesn't help against Stone Edge or Crunch.

Zapdos - Neutral to Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Flying/Grass/Ice won't really cut it, and unboosted neutral moves don't do much against zapdos.

Syclant - with Dragon you lose resistance against ice and even then other hits will be strong and neutral, hard to take since it has no resistances against it. Water/dragon doesn't threaten syclant in the slightest offensivly or defensivly.

Blissey - I am not going to bother this depends on the physical/special split. Neutral moves with an average attack stat won't do much

Heatran - with a 4x fire resist, it looks good, but they will begin to pack Dragon Pulse over HP Ice.

Scizor - Dragon adds nothing to water to aid in checking scizor.

Pyroak - most pyroak from what I've seen only carry lava plume for an attack, but even with some carrying Energy Ball, water/dragon doesn't fare badly here.



The addition of Dragon overall is only useful against one pokemon, maybe two if bulky enough to take hits from non-metal sound Zapdos, and does nothing substantial that Water doesn't already do.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch

[haterguy]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

Conclusion
Dragon is a Terrible offensive type and brings no new resists. The neutralities to Grass and Electric are nice, the neutrality to Ice is bad. So defensively, it's nothing special.

Fighting is a brilliant offensive type and brings very useful Bug, Dark and Rock resists. Flying and Psychic weaknesses are no biggie as only Zapdos uses Flying moves from the top 10.

It won't matter about the offense of Dragon because dragons usually have great base stats in terms of special and physical attacks.

It's all about 'decentralizing' common attacks while still having to take them down. Imo, having something like Water/dragon that could take hits is nice, given dragon dance or some sort of stat-upper it is going to take down the top 10 listed while having to take in hits without super effective. Problem with fighting is, it is weak to electric and grass which is common.

4 weakness is a lot and it doesn't seem like 'decentralizing' as much as water/dragon's few key resistance and neutrality.

i dunno... but this my last post in here.. it really dont matter im fine with both fighting or dragon, it's just dragon makes a lot more sense to me imo.

[Pombo]

Dragons USUALLY have. This is a CAP, so we can make a fast special attacker rock type. A Gallade like (kinda better, cause Gallade is mediocre, IMO) Stat spread would allow him to beat every single top 10.

Togekiss will come back? with this overpopulation of Scarftrans, Zapdos, Scizors and Stratagems? I doubt, seriously.

please, remember one thing: Each single pokemon have a weakness. You can cover the Electric/Grass with any special wall (come on, who uses Vire/Breloom (ok, they are fucking good pokes, but no one uses them))

Zapdos uses Flying moves? o.o

Water Fighting resists:
-Strata Stab
-Tyranitar STAB (both)
- Heatran Stab
- Both Scyclant STABs
- Scizor Stab (both) - Important: 4x resistance to Bullet Punch
- Pyroak

IMO too much resistances > few weaknesses because you can cover a lot of moves with him and be covered by only 1 pokemon. Too much resists also give him much more oportunities to enter, since a neutral Stone Edge coming from a CBTTar hurts everything non resisting it.

[Goodbar]

Originally Posted by Fat haterguy

Water/ghost would be new, but it wouldnt decentralize as much as dragon or fighting.

Stop making assumptions like this, we can't even be sure this pokemon is going to decentralize anything, and can hardly tell based on typing. Actually for the sole reason that it's CAP I'd bargain that it'd more likely centralize ?_?

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

Dragon is a Terrible offensive type and brings no new resists. The neutralities to Grass and Electric are nice, the neutrality to Ice is bad. So defensively, it's nothing special.

While I agree that defensively its rather silly to consider, dragon is probably one of or the best offensive type out there, and with a good stat distribution could probably at least check every one of the top 10.

Originally Posted by Fat Pombo

- Scizor Stab (both) - Important: 4x resistance to Bullet Punch

It's only 2x :S

[Beej]

Originally Posted by Fat Sgt_Woodsy

Uh, no, Water and Fighting both resist Steel.

The pros of Water/Fighting far outweigh the cons, if you ask me.

Fighting does not resist Steel. Metagross rapes Machamp in the face with Meteor Mash.

I'm still an avid Water/Electric supporter. You'll find that it does well on the defensive end and offensive end of many of the most common threats. Lanturn + weight and other features could arguably be one of the best decentralizers around.

[darkie]

Fighting wins with 53.5% of the popular vote.