CAP 6 - Part 5c - Secondary Ability Poll 1

[Bass]

Originally Posted by Fat Sgt_Woodsy

No Secondary Ability.

People need to realize that if they picked Water/Fighting, he won't (and shouldn't) be good against Zapdos.

But this also compromises the concept. If we are trying to make something that we can truly call a decentralizer, shouldn't we at least aid it in battle against something as centralizing as Zapdos?

Really, you can make that argument for any type. There is no single typing combination that could possible allow our Pokemon to counter, or at least check EVERY threat in the CAP metagame. However, thanks to certain abilities, we can actually get closer to that goal.

Thus, I think voting No Secondary Ability is a complete waste. It's fine if you think Shockproof isn't the right choice for secondary ability, but leaving it just one ability limits its potential to truly be a "decentralizer".

By the way, I voted Shockproof. I think RB made a good point when bringing up Bronzong's Heatproof.

[tennisace]

If Zapdos was so centralizing, it would be higher than #5, and two of the other top 5 deal with Zapdos while just doing their normal jobs. So that's not exactly centralizing.

Also, where do we have to check every Pokemon? We only need to check the majority of the top 5 (Stratagem, Tyranitar, Fidgit). Mission accomplished.

[yokie]

I voted NSA. It's time we got a CAP with only one ability. One ability tends to become the standard and Unaware is already kick ass. I doubt that Shockproof would make Mr. Fishy decent Zapdos counter anyway, since a neutral STAB Thunderbolt off 125 base SpA still hurts like a mother.

[Umbreon Dan]

I voted No Secondary Ability, although I'm moderately disappointed that a Psych Up ability isn't an option. To me, that would've been the one to pair with Unaware.

[Drakhun]

I'm voting No Guard, but will be happy with anything not called shockproof. Lets not go down this kind of road again like with syclant.

[Birdy]

No second ability.

Unaware is too good to be dropped anyways (in most cases)

[eric the espeon]

IMO Zappy is not massively strong in itself, but is used a lot due to metagame influences. The abundance of Revvy/Bulky Waters/Scizor/Gyra/Luke/ect is the man reason for Zappy being popular.

And we don't want to make a Water/Fighting that can take on a top class Electric/Flying.. really how does that look?

Voted NSA

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

IMO Zappy is not massively strong in itself, but is used a lot due to metagame influences. The abundance of Revvy/Bulky Waters/Scizor/Gyra/Luke/ect is the man reason for Zappy being popular.

And we don't want to make a Water/Fighting that can take on a top class Electric/Flying.. really how does that look?

Voted NSA

Plus the fact that Shockproof voters are forgetting Zapdos can easily run HP Flying which will still be SE against CAP6 as well as other CAPs.

[RBG*]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

Plus the fact that Shockproof voters are forgetting Zapdos can easily run HP Flying which will still be SE against CAP6 as well as other CAPs.

Ummmmm, no I'm not. I just think that if bronzong can have a special ability that allows him to take on heatran, than CAP6 should be allowed to have an ability to take on Zapdos

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat RB Golbat

Ummmmm, no I'm not. I just think that if bronzong can have a special ability that allows him to take on heatran, than CAP6 should be allowed to have an ability to take on Zapdos

Your reasoning is flawed since Specstran Fire Blast is a 2HKO on Heatproof standard Bronzong and thats with Bronzong running a +SpDef Nature while the same Bronzong's EQ fails to OHKO Specstran so Bronzong cannot take on Heatran and shouldn't be running Heatproof anyway!

The two situations shouldn't even be compared since Shockproof still leaves CAP6 vulnerable to one of Zapdos' STABs so Doesn't allow CAP6 to take on Zapdos.

Bearing that in mind, Shockproof doesn't really benefit CAP6. Without Unaware it is unable to withstand boosted attacks from several of the top 10 and many other OU pokemon who like to stat up.
On top of that there is the shaky wisdom of nullifying a CAP's weakness with a custom Ability.

[RBG*]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

Your reasoning is flawed since Specstran Fire Blast is a 2HKO on Heatproof standard Bronzong and thats with Bronzong running a +SpDef Nature while the same Bronzong's EQ fails to OHKO Specstran so Bronzong cannot take on Heatran and shouldn't be running Heatproof anyway!

Well, My Bronzong has taken on Heatran and OHKOed them earthquake after getting hit by a Fire Blast that would have OHKOed my 'Zong if it didn't have Heatproof. Besides, most Heatran's right now use Scarf, not Specs.

And bite your tongue. Heatproof 'Zong is amazing for mindgames. What kind of person is gonna Earthquake a 'Zong with an 80% chance of it doing nothing before having used a fire attack?

The two situations shouldn't even be compared since Shockproof still leaves CAP6 vulnerable to one of Zapdos' STABs so Doesn't allow CAP6 to take on Zapdos.

I didn't say take on Zapdos, but it can check some Zapdos sets.

Bearing that in mind, Shockproof doesn't really benefit CAP6. Without Unaware it is unable to withstand boosted attacks from several of the top 10 and many other OU pokemon who like to stat up.

Again, it's mindgames. If you see a CAP6 early in a game against a non-stat uper, and you don't figure out which ability it has, are you really going to spend time stat-upping later in the battle? That is the point of having 2 abilities. Mindgames help make prediction wars more fun.

On top of that there is the shaky wisdom of nullifying a CAP's weakness with a custom Ability.

You aren't nulifying it's weakness on every CAP6. Only the ones that don't have unaware will have a weakness removed.

[gorm]

voted limber. it's relatively unobtrusive, and gives people the option to just run roar zapdos or something

[jagged_angel]

I didn't say take on Zapdos, but it can check some Zapdos sets.

On top of that there is the shaky wisdom of nullifying a CAP's weakness with a custom Ability.

You aren't nulifying it's weakness on every CAP6. Only the ones that don't have unaware will have a weakness removed.

Ok, your Bronzong can take on Heatran. Let's not go on about that but I'm confident that most people would not be happy to give their Zong a weakness to the most common OU move, Earthquake.

Actually, read your post 'take on Zapdos' is Exactly what you said.

And the Bronzong situation does not hold true for CAP6. Whatever stat spread it gets, it cannot OHKO Zapdos at full health. Against Bold variants of Zap it does not even come close.

Avalanche is the most powerful Physical Ice move at 120BP and that does not OHKO. Its negative priority means CAP6 must survive 2 Thunderbolts or a Thunderbolt and a HP Flying, or worst case scenario, 2 HP Flyings.
Without a Stat Spread chosen we can't say for sure but I don't Think it can do that.

Regarding your last sentence you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I Know only CAP6s with Shockproof will have the weakness removed.
I'm saying that it's unwise to give a CAP such a contrived Ability in the first place. Alot of people said Mountaineer was fanboyish and made Syclant look bad. People would say the same if this got Shockproof.

There's really no reason a Water/Fighting pokemon should be 'shockproof', so to alot of people, giving CAP6 Shockproof will look very much like we CAPpers just wanted to fiddle with the Type Chart.

I believe tennisace said something like 'We voted CAP6 Water/Fighting, deal with it'. It's ridiculous to expect CAP6 to defend well against Electric/Flying. We chose a type, now we have to stick to it.

[zarator]

Agreeing with RBG here. Many apparently novelty sets can work very well because the opponent is misguided into thinking it has the best option. Just two examples.
Infernape can run a quite powerful pure special-attack set, which theoretically would be walled by Blissey completely. But who in his right minds would switch a Blissey into Infernape? Most Infernapes carry Close Combat, so she wont dare. That Infernape is not using Close Combat actually, but its very presence in the movepool aids him even if he does not choose it.
Also Mixgross (Meteor Mash/Earthquake/Grass Knot/Hidden Power Fire) can work thanks to a similar trick. Most people fear the CB or Agility set, and so switch into Skarmory, since even CB Thunderpunch may fail to 2HKO. But most of the times they will rarely expect over 60% damage from a surprise HP Fire. An even more amusing present for Hyppowdon, Swampert (Grass Knot) and Scizor (again HP Fire). Of course, you eschew great moves like the elemental punches, Explosion, Agility. But even if apparently inferior the surprise value do really compensate for this.
So, even if Unaware is the best option, Shockproof could be a neat surprise since everyone will expect the former.

EDIT: I dont think it would seem fanboyish, at least I think it is less fanboyish than giving an ability only for the sake of the artwork - as many people suggested to do now and before. With this idea in mind, even Battle Armor Pyroak could be seen as a fanboyish "OMFG I hate hax so much I dont want my wall fucked by CHs". Of course, this is not my opinion about Pyroak, and since I try to be consistent, I think I should not be against Shockproof too. It is just a directly beneficial ability for a pokemon. Not that strange, really.
We created it? Who cares? We already created pokemon, moves, abilities. Nothing new.
It is an ad-personam ability? Again, who cares? Mountaineer wasnt? Persistent Wasnt? Technician wasnt? And, about existing pokemon, Serene Grace Skymin, anyone? really, a lot of pokemon, CAPs and not, have ad-personam abilities, be them unique or not.

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat zarator

So, even if Unaware is the best option, Shockproof could be a neat surprise since everyone will expect the former.

I don't mean to undervalue the competitive merit of mindgames or surprise tactics, but even against a Shockproof CAP6, Zapdos can still attack supereffectively with STAB.
We know that Flying is a good STAB on the CAP server and the advent of a 4th Flying weak CAP means it will only get more prevalent.

The fact that CAP6 can't OHKO Zapdos means that Shockproof variants must survive 2 SE attacks in order to beat the sparky bird. I won't do damage calcs since the HP and SpDef are quite varied amongst the submitted sets but off 125SpA, Zapdos will surely 2HKO with HP Flying.

Edit: zarator what do you mean they are ad-personam Abilities? You can only have an ad-personam argument. Please elaborate.

[Goodbar]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

Ok, your Bronzong can take on Heatran. Let's not go on about that but I'm confident that most people would not be happy to give their Zong a weakness to the most common OU move, Earthquake.

You're missing his point, it can be useful to play mindgames on your opponent with that second ability, and on some teams comes very much in handy. Having an EQ weakness is not always a big deal, CAPs most feared tyranitar has it too...

And the Bronzong situation does not hold true for CAP6. Whatever stat spread it gets, it cannot OHKO Zapdos at full health. Against Bold variants of Zap it does not even come close.

Avalanche is the most powerful Physical Ice move at 120BP and that does not OHKO. Its negative priority means CAP6 must survive 2 Thunderbolts or a Thunderbolt and a HP Flying, or worst case scenario, 2 HP Flyings.
Without a Stat Spread chosen we can't say for sure but I don't Think it can do that.

It could surely survive two thunderbolts with just about every submitted spread, and possibly a thunderbolt/hp flying depending on the spread chosen/EVs invested. And it should likely be able to 2HKO. And if the watermon runs a more defensive spread, it should be taking thunderbolts/hp flyings like a champ

Regarding your last sentence you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I Know only CAP6s with Shockproof will have the weakness removed.
I'm saying that it's unwise to give a CAP such a contrived Ability in the first place. Alot of people said Mountaineer was fanboyish and made Syclant look bad. People would say the same if this got Shockproof.

So what? It's not? We're trying to check/counter the top 5 aren't we?

There's really no reason a Water/Fighting pokemon should be 'shockproof', so to alot of people, giving CAP6 Shockproof will look very much like we CAPpers just wanted to fiddle with the Type Chart.

I believe tennisace said something like 'We voted CAP6 Water/Fighting, deal with it'. It's ridiculous to expect CAP6 to defend well against Electric/Flying. We chose a type, now we have to stick to it.

Why not, maybe it's martial art prowress has allowed it to fend off electric damage. I could see some of the designs being shockproof. Also why are you having this negative attitude towards something you chose? Think progressively, not "oh well we chose this lulz", maybe it's an indication you should have chose something else?

[gorm]

shockproof doesn't really allow cap 6 to check zapdos, it just means zapdos isn't a surefure check to cap 6. we are only beating zapdos in special situaitions, eg it switches in with sr up

[RBG*]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

Ok, your Bronzong can take on Heatran. Let's not go on about that but I'm confident that most people would not be happy to give their Zong a weakness to the most common OU move, Earthquake.

Actually, read your post 'take on Zapdos' is Exactly what you said.

And the Bronzong situation does not hold true for CAP6. Whatever stat spread it gets, it cannot OHKO Zapdos at full health. Against Bold variants of Zap it does not even come close.

Avalanche is the most powerful Physical Ice move at 120BP and that does not OHKO. Its negative priority means CAP6 must survive 2 Thunderbolts or a Thunderbolt and a HP Flying, or worst case scenario, 2 HP Flyings.
Without a Stat Spread chosen we can't say for sure but I don't Think it can do that.

Regarding your last sentence you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I Know only CAP6s with Shockproof will have the weakness removed.
I'm saying that it's unwise to give a CAP such a contrived Ability in the first place. Alot of people said Mountaineer was fanboyish and made Syclant look bad. People would say the same if this got Shockproof.

There's really no reason a Water/Fighting pokemon should be 'shockproof', so to alot of people, giving CAP6 Shockproof will look very much like we CAPpers just wanted to fiddle with the Type Chart.

I believe tennisace said something like 'We voted CAP6 Water/Fighting, deal with it'. It's ridiculous to expect CAP6 to defend well against Electric/Flying. We chose a type, now we have to stick to it.

Again, more than 20% of Bronzong's have Heatproof. Just the THREAT of having Levitate makes people not want to use Ground Moves on it.

And don't try to apply logic to Pokemon. We've disproved that quite a bit. Punching Wooper?

And this is a LOT more tame than Syclant/Mountainer. We are not removing a weakness when it switches in, INCLUDING a 50% Stealth Rock weakness. To my knowledge, this isn't even removing the chance of paralysis working. If we were giving it Volt Absorb or Motor Drive, i would have to agree with you, but a heatproof knockoff is perfectly fine. After all, the Mindgames of having 2 abilites means it can check most of the major threats, but not counter thema ll at the same time.

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr_Goodbar

You're missing his point, it can be useful to play mindgames on your opponent with that second ability, and on some teams comes very much in handy. Having an EQ weakness is not always a big deal, CAPs most feared tyranitar has it too...

I don't undervalue the power of mindgames, I've just said so.

It could surely survive two thunderbolts with just about every submitted spread, and possibly a thunderbolt/hp flying depending on the spread chosen/EVs invested. And it should likely be able to 2HKO. And if the watermon runs a more defensive spread, it should be taking thunderbolts/hp flyings like a champ

Pure conjecture. I'll quote from Time Mage's spread again, because it's got Very good specially defensive prowess and he has done extensive damage calcs.

"- Timid Life Orb Thunderbolt (252 SpAtt EVs) vs 252 HP/0 SpDef: 93.40% - 110.38%. Not pretty, not pretty at all, but we all knew this. At least, thanks to the great 110HP/100SpDef it has, there is a chance to survive it, even with SR up."

If a Timid Zapdos can OHKO, then it can 2HKO with Shockproof. Given that Zapdos may have a chance to get 2 HP Flyings in, no variant of CAP6 will be 'taking them like a champ'.

So what? It's not? We're trying to check/counter the top 5 aren't we?

No. We are trying to check (not counter) the Majority of the top 5.

Why not, maybe it's martial art prowress has allowed it to fend off electric damage. I could see some of the designs being shockproof. Also why are you having this negative attitude towards something you chose? Think progressively, not "oh well we chose this lulz", maybe it's an indication you should have chose something else?

Yes there are all sorts of random reasons we could use to explain CAP6's Shockproofing. But you can't explain the reasons to the whole of Smogon. If this gets Shockproof, be prepared for a lot of derision directed at CAP.

I do not have a negative attitude to CAP6's typing. It is the voters for Shockproof who have unrealistic expectations for Water/Fighting holding its own against Electric/Flying.

Originally Posted by Fat RB Golbat

And don't try to apply logic to Pokemon. We've disproved that quite a bit. Punching Wooper?

That doesn't mean that logic flys out of the window throughout the whole of the CAP process. Yes Shockproof is less fanboyish than Mountaineer, so what? Was Mountaineer a good idea? If Shockproof is perceived to be illogical on a Water/Fighting pokemon, CAP will lose face. I don't want that to happen. Maybe it would be worth it if Shockproof was majorly beneficial to CAP6 but it isn't. Super Effective HP Flying is still an option on Zapdos. Even if it is only on 20% of CAP Zapdos, the Threat of it is still there, meaning you shouldn't try and check Zapdos with Shockproof CAP6. Hows that for mindgames? ;-)

[RBG*]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

That doesn't mean that logic flys out of the window throughout the whole of the CAP process. Yes Shockproof is less fanboyish than Mountaineer, so what? Was Mountaineer a good idea? If Shockproof is perceived to be illogical on a Water/Fighting pokemon, CAP will lose face. I don't want that to happen. Maybe it would be worth it if Shockproof was majorly beneficial to CAP6 but it isn't. Super Effective HP Flying is still an option on Zapdos. Even if it is only on 20% of CAP Zapdos, the Threat of it is still there, meaning you shouldn't try and check Zapdos with Shockproof CAP6. Hows that for mindgames? ;-)

Aggreed, but since art is now after ability, i think that flavor can be made to allow it to happen

And only 20% HP Flying is something most people are willing to take a chance on. Bring on the mindgames! Thats why i play.

[Goodbar]

I was specifically talking about bold zapdos variants, obviously it stands no chance against offensive zapdos, who btw carries HP grass alot. Even with my spread bold zapdos is not OHKOing (and for that matter 2HKOing) 0hp/0spdef variants with thunderbolt, meaning it'd be a 3hko. A calm version of mine WOULD be taking those hits like a champ, and I have one of the more average spdefs.
And what's wrong with being a check on all the top 5? We have not completely conformed to the concept, we are likely going to have a nearly pure counter for tyranitar, and we've extended our thoughts to the top 10.
Shockproof is just as justifiable as Unaware. Of the top 10, let alone the top 5, Rev is the only one who it would be useful for, as all the other boosters it can counter save tech versions of stratagem with calm mind, who you probably want to avoid anyways. And shockproof is pretty much only useful for defensive zapdos ?_?

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr_Goodbar

I was specifically talking about bold zapdos variants, obviously it stands no chance against offensive zapdos, who btw carries HP grass alot. Even with my spread bold zapdos is not OHKOing (and for that matter 2HKOing) 0hp/0spdef variants with thunderbolt, meaning it'd be a 3hko. A calm version of mine WOULD be taking those hits like a champ, and I have one of the more average spdefs.

What's the point if it only stands a chance against Bold variants?! Having Shockproof just means we will see more offensive Zapdos carrying HP Flying, and CAP6 will still be utterly screwed.

And what's wrong with being a check on all the top 5? We have not completely conformed to the concept, we are likely going to have a nearly pure counter for tyranitar, and we've extended our thoughts to the top 10.

Nothing's wrong with it. I was merely pointing out what the concept is. We don't Have to check Zapdos, and if we try we will fail and look like idiots.

Shockproof is just as justifiable as Unaware. Of the top 10, let alone the top 5, Rev is the only one who it would be useful for, as all the other boosters it can counter save tech versions of stratagem with calm mind, who you probably want to avoid anyways. And shockproof is pretty much only useful for defensive zapdos ?_?

Apart from the fact that even with Shockproof, CAP6 is Not a Zapdos check. Only useful for defensive Zapdos? Great.

Whereas Unaware is useful for All Revenankh and avoids 2HKOs from Syclant EP and Scizor Superpower.

Ignoring Stratagem's Calm Minds is also very useful since Strata can't OHKO with Giga Drain whereas CAP6 Can OHKO.

[Goodbar]

Defensive Zapdos is the most used atm, so I do think that's useful. But I admit I put 0 thought into that last paragraph :S. But I'm going to have to agree with RBG; you yourself are claiming how situational shockproof would be, so if all CAP6's are pretty much going to be assumed to be unaware, then shockproof is nice for mindgames.

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr_Goodbar

shockproof is nice for mindgames.

I think that if this has any impact on the gameplay of Zapdos users, it'll be to make them A) use more offensive Zapdos or B) run HP Flying. Either way, Shockproof becomes not so useful.

[LonelyNess]

You're jumping around with your arguments so much. Either the ability it too overpowering, or there's no reason not to add it.

It's not like the ability is going to get its feelings hurt if it's used less than Unaware. It's ANOTHER OPTION. If we have the option to give this thing two choices for ability, there's no reason not to do so, especially for such an inane reason as "it won't ever get used."

Let's say we do pick it to be a second option and it never gets used... SO WHAT??? There's absolutely no downside to putting it as a second option. It's just that, AN OPTION. I'd rather it be an option and be picked 0% of the time rather than it not be an option at all.

"It won't ever get used" is just a stupid reason to vote NSA.