CAP 6 - Part 9 - Counters Discussion

[Time Mage]

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

Well BP of a move make up much of the bulk when determine how much damage a Pokemon delivers/receives. With Ice Punch, it would have to run Adamant, max attack, and Life Orb just to 2HKO with SR up. Now with Stone Edge, it could only need 108 attack netural natured to gain a 2HKO from the bird. Stone Edge would make really hard for Zapdos to counter it, thought it still make a strong check.

You're right, but remember that along with BP, there's also accuracy to take into account. 80% accuracy means it only will be a 2HKO 64% of the time, so it isn't exactly reliable. I think that CAP6 can have Stone Edge and Ice Punch and still be countered or at least checked by several pokémon, like Slowbro, Cresselia, Starmie, Zapdos and Celebi, among others. Togekiss, too.

By the way, congratulations on your victory :) CAP6 has a really good spread.

[X-Act]

Just so you know, all Water Pokemon learn all the Ice-typed TMs, unless you're something stupid like Magikarp, which includes Ice Beam and Blizzard, and this Pokemon is no exception.

[jagged_angel]

Assuming no Earthquake, Metagross can take some powerful neutral hits on the physical side and has Zen Headbutt to to damage CAP6 on its weaker defensive stat.

Seeing how's we want to reduce Zapdos usage not encourage it, we really should give CAP6 Avalanche/Stone Edge. Without those, Zapdos is a surefire counter.

I'd think Water/Psychics are the best paper counters to CAP6 even if we give it Ice and Rock moves.

With Ice, Rock and Electric moves Skarmory, Celebi, Cresselia and Jirachi all still do well.

[DoubleUnderscore]

Originally Posted by Fat Slapjax

Syclant (neutral to fighting, but rock destroys it. Not sure how CAP6 will fare if Syclant gets a tail glow)

Unaware means CaP6 won't care if Syclant gets a Tail Glow.

[Infiltrator]

Mainly Zapdos. Also i heard someone mention Skarmory. Skarmory might not be such of a problem if this guy get Thunder punch or clone a move then will dent in Skarm before dieing.

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

Assuming no Earthquake, Metagross can take some powerful neutral hits on the physical side and has Zen Headbutt to to damage CAP6 on its weaker defensive stat.

Seeing how's we want to reduce Zapdos usage not encourage it, we really should give CAP6 Avalanche/Stone Edge. Without those, Zapdos is a surefire counter.

I'd think Water/Psychics are the best paper counters to CAP6 even if we give it Ice and Rock moves.

With Ice, Rock and Electric moves Skarmory, Celebi, Cresselia and Jirachi all still do well.

Also from an Thunder punch from metagross.

Originally Posted by Fat Helios

Hey; does Unaware make regigigas ignore his ability :D? If it does, then GO YOU TOTALLY USELESS OTHERWISE THING.

I think it only ignores stat boosts not the opposite.

[RBG*]

Originally Posted by Fat ss4_hybrid

I think it only ignores stat boosts not the opposite.

Wrong, it does ignore negative stat boosts. But it does not ignore Slow Start because that is an ability.

[zarator]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Zapdos. This should be it's biggest counter.

Who decided this? I thought about Skarmory... maybe I lost something?

That means no Rock-type moves of any kind, and no physical Ice-type moves at all.

Adamant 252 atk EV CAP6 Stone Edge (Pretty improbable since the drop in defenses) against 252HP/220 Def Leftovers Bold Zapdos is a 2HKO only with SR up, and since Zapdos will probably outspeed (otherwise the drop in defenses is huge) it can Roost and waste all the 8PP thanks to Pressure. And if even Stone Edge is manageable, think about Ice Punch and Avalanche (which has a meager 60 BP if Zapdos dont damage him).

That also means Togekiss and Skarmory would work pretty well also.

Togekiss is so good in CAP server that having Stone Edge to deal with him would just benefit the metagame, and Skarmory is a counter even with Stone Edge, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Thunder Punch... almost everything

The Rotom forms should also be in that category.

Agreeing here. Rotom appliances seem solid counters.

Other than that, it's fair game. Salamence is good, Celebi is good. I'm going to say definatly no Ice-type moves for this reason, because then it becomes quite tricky.

Again, who decided Salamence and Celebi should work. I think this hing could stop Dragon Dancers very well so it should have an Ice Move to OHKO Salamence, and Celebi can stall even if CAP6 has Ice Punch (Celebi has better defenses than Zapdos and Zapdos can manage Stone Edge, also Celebi has Leech Seed... I really dont see any reason to even do damage calcs here) barring Choice Band.

So, really, no. There is no solid reasoning for not giving Stone Edge to CAP6 and making Zapdos and Togekiss even better than they are by now. You entire will to make Zapdos the biggest counter has no true reason to hold

[Darkflagrance]

Originally Posted by Fat X-Act

You can only speak of counters once you know the complete movepool of the Pokemon, but anyway.

Assuming only a Water and a Fighting move, these would be counters: Celebi, Tentacruel (though he's frail defensively), Salamence, Dragonite. Gyarados can also switch in with impunity but cannot do anything worthwhile to it except Earthquake.

I thought the point was to figure out counters now so we could take that into account when figuring the movepool?

We definitely need to give this more coverage than Water/Fighting. How useful is a top10 counter when rank numbers 11, 12, and 13 easily wall it?

[Pombo]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Zapdos. This should be it's biggest counter. That means no Rock-type moves of any kind, and no physical Ice-type moves at all. That also means Togekiss and Skarmory would work pretty well also. The Rotom forms should also be in that category. Other than that, it's fair game. Salamence is good, Celebi is good. I'm going to say definatly no Ice-type moves for this reason, because then it becomes quite tricky.

Ice Fang/Shard are unlikely to be in his move set, but it would be the first Fighting without a Elemental Punch (bar Tyrogue(lol) and Heracross). Fire is kinda not viable, because of the Fire is Water counterpart, but both Thunder Punch and Ice Punch fits well, IMO.

It would also be the second Fighter without Stone Edge (Poliwrath is the first).

I meant, we are here to break stereotypes, bu how deep will we break it?

[X-Act]

I meant that you cannot produce a good list of counters without knowing what the movepool is.

[Time Mage]

Well, they are intended counters.

[Infiltrator]

Originally Posted by Fat RB Golbat

Wrong, it does ignore negative stat boosts. But it does not ignore Slow Start because that is an ability.

Ah I understand unaware doesn't affect abilities just moves that boosts your stats.

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat zarator

So, really, no. There is no solid reasoning for not giving Stone Edge to CAP6 and making Zapdos and Togekiss even better than they are by now. You entire will to make Zapdos the biggest counter has no true reason to hold

I agree, it seems utterly backward to try and decentralise the metagame by countering/checking 4 of the top 5 and making sure that the 5th utterly destroys CAP6.

CAP6 needs all the Ice/Rock toys it can get to have a chance against Zapdos, otherwise Zapdos will most likely climb to no.1 and every CAP6 team will have to carry a true Zapdos counter; we risk ruining the concept, which was to decentralise.

[Infiltrator]

Originally Posted by Fat zarator

So, really, no. There is no solid reasoning for not giving Stone Edge to CAP6 and making Zapdos and Togekiss even better than they are by now. You entire will to make Zapdos the biggest counter has no true reason to hold

I like the idea of giving it stone edge as you mentioned it might help taking down Togekiss and Zapdos if not the leaving huge dents in them.

[ferron]

Originally Posted by Fat Slapjax

Cap6@ leftovers

Waterfall/ Aqua tail
Rockslide/ Stone edge
ice shard/ brick break (probably not bb because ttar gets worked by waterfall anyway)
recovery/ status/ filler
So then, with this set how does he fare against the top ten?

i like it, but can also see ice punch, avalanche, cross chop, sky uppercut and focus punch.

as for the actually topic, zapados we already know is a counter but due to its higher speed and its ability to tank it can take an attack on the switch and still tbolt you away. this means that we shouldnt be worried about giving it a rock or ice move, because its still a counter regardless.

starmie, is also an amazing counter for it due to typing.

toxicroak also resists one STAB and absorbs the other.

[Goodbar]

Stone Edge is on every fighting type except wrath and medicham, and Ice Punch is on every water type able to punch. With that said these two moves barely threaten Zapdos/Celebi anyways. If a max attack machamp barely takes half of a bold zapdos's health, who can also btw pressure roost, well, yea...I think our new mon may also be predominantly defensive. It won't be doing shit to Zapdos or Celebi.

[sbc]

Celebi, Toxicroak, (Rotom), Starmie, Tentacruel.

Zapdos is SR weak and can be outsped if it is a generic 245 Speeder and so isn't worth nerfing it significantly for.

Celebi should be the main counter which is fine and the others should be less common checks/counters to it.

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

CAP6 needs all the Ice/Rock toys it can get to have a chance against Zapdos, otherwise Zapdos will most likely climb to no.1 and every CAP6 team will have to carry a true Zapdos counter; we risk ruining the concept, which was to decentralise.

there's nothing at all to suggest that. It's not as if there isn't an existing CAP Pokemon that doesn't already shit on Zapdos ( cough Pyroak) Zapdos usage will likely decrease with a new Scizor counter and Revenankh check.

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat SkarmBlissCounter

there's nothing at all to suggest that. It's not as if there isn't an existing CAP Pokemon that doesn't already shit on Zapdos ( cough Pyroak) Zapdos usage will likely decrease with a new Scizor counter and Revenankh check.

I know, it's theorymon but Stratagem and Tyranitar being also countered means Zapdos usage may Not decrease and since the latest CAP is normally No.1 on the server for a while and since Zapdos is a perfect counter to CAP6 without rock and ice moves, he would be used Alot. That was my only point.

[Gothic Togekiss]

Originally Posted by Fat SkarmBlissCounter

Celebi, Toxicroak, (Rotom)

Don't have a problem with these guys so far. Skarmory have been discussed and it can handle CAP6 quite nicely, regardless if it's packing a SE move or not.

Originally Posted by Fat SkarmBlissCounter

Starmie, Tentacruel.

This is assuming it doesn't get any physical Electric or Bug moves. I would any Ground move either but Water/Fight cover everything ground does so it's a moot point.

Originally Posted by Fat Pombo

Fire is kinda not viable, because of the Fire is Water counterpart, but both Thunder Punch and Ice Punch fits well, IMO.

They're several water type pokemon that learn Fire moves not named Sunny Day so it wouldn't be soo weird to give it a Fire move or two. Fire Punch is very viable for CAP if you want to hit those pesky Steel/Psychic[Flying/Bug] for super effective damage. Skarm, Jirchai and his Steel/Psychic friend would make very good checks/counter for CAP6 so it's up to everyone if they want it or not.

Originally Posted by Fat Time Mage

You're right, but remember that along with BP, there's also accuracy to take into account. 80% accuracy means it only will be a 2HKO 64% of the time, so it isn't exactly reliable. I think that CAP6 can have Stone Edge and Ice Punch and still be countered or at least checked by several Pokemon, like Slowbro, Cresselia, Starmie, Zapdos and Celebi, among others. Togekiss, too.

Good point, I guess it can have Stone Edge and Ice Punch and still have a good amount of counters and checks. Admittly if Compoundeyes/No Guard had made it to being it's secondary ability, you outlook on Stone Edge and possibly any move with 80% accuracy would probably change.

Originally Posted by Fat Time Mage

By the way, congratulations on your victory :) CAP6 has a really good spread.

Thank you, you're wasn't so bad either. Hopefully next time, you'll win it for sure.

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

CAP6 needs all the Ice/Rock toys it can get to have a chance against Zapdos, otherwise Zapdos will most likely climb to no.1 and every CAP6 team will have to carry a true Zapdos counter; we risk ruining the concept, which was to decentralise.

Last time I checked most teams already carry Stratagem, Tyranitar, or Blissey. Zapdos also can't do much to Revenankh either, so I don't see the logic in that. Someone should calculate exactly how much attack this CAP needs to OHKO a standard defensive Zapdos with various attacks, just so we can see how much we need to take out of defense. Also Avalanche does NOT have negative priority, rather it doubles in power if you move second. There's a fairly large difference.

[zarator]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Last time I checked most teams already carry Stratagem, Tyranitar, or Blissey. Zapdos also can't do much to Revenankh either, so I don't see the logic in that. Someone should calculate exactly how much attack this CAP needs to OHKO a standard defensive Zapdos with various attacks, just so we can see how much we need to take out of defense. Also Avalanche does NOT have negative priority, rather it doubles in power if you move second. There's a fairly large difference.

I'll use 252 HP/220 Def/36 Spd bold Zapdos with Leftovers

STONE EDGE - CASE1
CAP 6: 350 Atk (Adamant)
No field modifiers

46,35%-54,42%, very, VERY slight chance to 2HKO. Zapdos can outspeed and Roost off.

STONE EDGE - CASE 2
CAP 6: 350 Atk (Adamant)
Stealth Rock up

71,35%-79,42%, clean 2HKO, but, again, Zapdos can Roost.

STONE EDGE - CASE 3
CAP 6: 525 Atk (Adamant + Choice Band)
No field modifiers

69,01%-80,98%, 2HKO. Probably this time Zapdos is slower - CAP6 carrying a Choice Band allows for a drop in defenses in favor of speed since it should not be meant as a tank -, so, it won't be able to Roost off.

STONE EDGE - CASE 4
CAP6: 525 Atk (Adamant + Choice Band)
Stealth Rock up

94,01%-105,98%, good chance to OHKO.


Now, unless CAP6 runs a Choice Band, Zapdos, as you can see, has nothing to worry about. And, BTW, the lack of defenses due to the maxed Atk can be exploited. I did not run other calcs since there are no physical attacks that hit harder than Stone Edge - unless Zapdos attacks. If you want, anyway, you can run other calcs by yourselves and you'll see these attacks are not gamebreaking at all

[Gothic Togekiss]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Also Avalanche does NOT have negative priority, rather it doubles in power if you move second. There's a fairly large difference.

So that means Smogon is wrong for once?

252 HP, 220 Def, 36 Spe Zapdos stat: 384/198/287/286/216/245. Something is way off with your calcs Zarator.

252 Adamant CAP6 using Stone Edge vs 252 HP / 220 Def Bold Zapdos: 54.69% - 64.58%

252 Atk Adamant LO CAP6 using Stone Edge vs 252 HP / 220 Def Bold Zapdos: 70.83% - 83.85%

CB Adamant CAP6 using Stone Edge vs 252 HP / 220 Def Bold Zapdos: 82.29% - 96.88%

[Pombo]

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

They're several water type pokemon that learn Fire moves not named Sunny Day so it wouldn't be soo weird to give it a Fire move or two. Fire Punch is very viable for CAP if you want to hit those pesky Steel/Psychic[Flying/Bug] for super effective damage. Skarm, Jirchai and his Steel/Psychic friend would make very good checks/counter for CAP6 so it's up to everyone if they want it or not.

I dot mind giving it Fire Punch. My point is: why not give it Stone Edge/Ice Punch, since every Fighting learn one of those (again, we can break steryotypes, i know, but its kinda weird)

Well, this is not the Movepool one, but i was just replying tennisace.

GT, his calcs are right... aren't them?

[tennisace]

I give. You have to sacrifice a ton of defense to even 2HKO Zapdos on the switch, and Zapdos can probably do a ton of damage back. Anyway, I didn't realize that Avalanche worked like that, but Avalanche on the switch is only 60 BP anyway.

[dmlaw]

I would have thought that Dusknoir and Spiritomb are bulky enough to come in, burn it and render it near useless for the rest of the match. Admittedly, neither will be KO-ing it any time soon either.