CAP 6 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Videodude131]

If it's going to some serious damage to Tyranitar, I think X-scissor and U-Turn Our CAP has a lack in Bug moves and I don't see any reason for this

[Lawman]

I'm going to support Rock Slide and Stone Edge to be in the "Allowed" Category, the main reason being that Zapdos is not as threatened by it as would seem. The Standard Bulky Zapdos switching in, even on Stone Edge, can Roost off the damage, and get hit by a nonSTAB Stone Edge that won't be doing much without Life Orb or heavy EV support, which probably won't be extremely common on CAP6. With Pressure, CAP6 essentially only has 4 Stone Edges with Zapdos in, and can easily be outstalled with Roost.

The same goes for Salamence and Gyarados in a way, because they decrease CAP6's attack, one can roost off damage (albeit scared of Ice moves), and the other resists everything else it would likely be running and won't be taking much from unSTAB stone edge coming off -1 attack, even with it being SE.

I have arguements for moves that are not no the list I shall be posting shortly, consider this first of quite a few =]

EDIT: Um, Videodude, perhaps you didn't notice CAP6 has dual SE STAB against Tyranitar, one of which is 4x SE? ?_?

Oh and technically U-Turn is support

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Videodude131

If it's going to some serious damage to Tyranitar, I think X-scissor and U-Turn Our CAP has a lack in Bug moves and I don't see any reason for this

I disagree with Bug moves being innocuous on CAP6. Celebi is one of CAP6's best counters discussed in the counters thread and would get destroyed by X-Scissor. I would like to add X-Scissor to the banned moves. Cresselia is hardly used on the CAP server but would also be able to counter well if CAP6 doesn't have Super Effective coverage.

Psychic types that are not part Steel are at a relative disadvantage in regular OU metagame but with Psychic being a decent STAB on CAP due to Revenankh and Fidgit, Psychic types have more chance to be used.

Psychic types include some of the best counters to CAP6 so I would want to ban Shadow Claw, Crunch and X-Scissor. I would allow Punishment due to the low base power without the opponent using stat boosting moves. Since Celebi, Starmie, Cresselia, Jirachi, Bronzong and Metagross all get by without using stat boosting moves, Punishment would not affect them too strongly. I would like to add Punishment to the allowed moves.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat ss4_hybrid

I'm supporting Close Combat to hit TTar, Trans, Syclant, Bliss and thanks to Unaware no Def/Sp.Def drop. Same thing goes for Hammer arm and SuperPower.

You only ignore the opponent's stat changes. You'll still have your defenses reduced.

Originally Posted by Fat ss4_hybrid

Also supporting Thunder Punch to kill Gyarados and hit other Water Types and to damage Flying types.

But you're also supporting Stone Edge! T-punch is only for Gyarados.

[Goodbar]

^ And starmie :P

Is the non-attacking/supporting move discussion going to open soon? A lot of my thoughts are going to be centered around whether we allow curse/bulk up or not, and possibly around recover and swords dance as well.

Also going to agree that X-Scizzor, U-turn, and Sucker Punch not be allowed for reasons stated

[jagged_angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Lawman

-Drain Punch

Unallowed. This pokemon is bulky enough and strong enough to make very good advantage of this move, and with Rocks and Steels abundant, having an SE move without wasting a slot for recovery seems too dangerous.

I agree with most of Lawman's decisions but not this one. Drain Punch should be Allowed as it allows CAP6 to combine the moveslots for Fighting STAB and Recovery while giving the tradeoff of low base power, low PP, damage dependant recovery and reduced recovery in most cases.

I think this is a fair tradeoff and could be useful on BU or SD sets but will not see use otherwise. 60BP does not do much unless its 4x Super Effective as with Tyranitar.

In addition to the downsides listed, Drain Punch as CAP6's Fighting STAB and Recovery will leave it alot more exposed to Revenankh and Zapdos while losing the ability to OHKO Tyranitar and Stratagem.

As an interesting and original move, this should be an option.

[sbc]

X-Scissor and U-turn should not be allowed for obvious reasons
I'd rather Thunderbolt and not ThunderPunch to be on this to keep Tenta in the loop

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

Okay they're some pretty damn sturdy counters for them, that doesn't make them any "harder" than the rest of the counters/checks they have. Not everything needs some 100% counter to be balanced.

No, but it would help if we didn't remove a whole swath of reliable water-type checks at the very least.

Like you said before, Stone Edge makes it difficult for Gyarados to actually counter it. I wonder why Gyarados was even suggested to be a check for it since Stone Edge make it a pretty shaky pokemon to rely on.

It can still hit with Intimidate on a STAB move and Taunt. Without Thunderpunch, Stone Edge is necessitated to take out Gyarados.

If CAP6 is running max speed, it could just Taunt them before they could use Toxic. Shuts down majority of their sets with the exception to HP Electric/Choice variation. Also wouldn't a CB Cross Chop/Close Combat be a 2HKO on both Blastoise and Milotic anyway so I don't see why getting rid of Thunder Punch matters much. Earthquake does more damage to Steel type then any of it's Fighting moves, so Earthquake variations can maul Tentacruel as well.

Taunt is a fairly large assumption, one which I don't necessarily support, but that's for the next thread.

I give you these two. Suicune can shrug off the effect of TP and Swampert is immune to it and can probably take a Cross Chop or whatever from CAP6 before being roared out.

No, you won't. You assumed Taunt earlier, making Roar Suicune/Swampert meaningless.

[ParadOxymoron]

Originally Posted by Fat Lawman

-Reversal

Unallowed due to wasting move space. With the abundance of Tyranitars, Abomasnows, Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Toxic Spikes, Reversal would not be at all threatening. Waste of a slot.

That's not really a reason to ban something. If it's useless, then movesetmakers will probably just not include it anyway.
Also, if we're going to allow both Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, I think it would be kind of annoying to not allow both of them at the same time. Granted, that's an individual moveset matter, but really, people probably wouldn't use both of them at the same time anyway. Doesn't really pack much of a punch, does it?

[RobertM]

I'd like to propose Low Kick for reasons discussed in the rest-talk Machamp Stark Mountain thread.

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat RobertM

I'd like to propose Low Kick for reasons discussed in the rest-talk Machamp Stark Mountain thread.

I already did propose it multiple times, it's currently allowed unless you want to change it (which I will fight against.)

Anyway, I'm going to have to argue again against Stone Edge, if not Rock Slide along with it. I'm starting to think Gyarados being a solid counter is the best thing for the metagame. Think about it, if everyone is either running Gyarados or CAP 6, then usage of Stratagem, Fidgit, and Tyranitar will decrease. This may cause Zapdos usage to rise a lot, but then usage of Stratagem and Tyranitar will proportionally increase again, and we'll be left with a balanced metagame really. Where does Revenankh fit into this? The increased usage of Zapdos and Gyarados will knock it's usage down quite a bit, which is good because at the moment it's the biggest threat in the metagame in my opinion, and has been since we made it, completely disregarding the nerf we gave it.

Now how does this deal with rock moves on CAP 6? Well, giving it the ability to beat Gyarados and Zapdos at the same time will force Celebi to be the main counter. Ice Punch will still deal with Zapdos, Salamence, and Celebi, but won't do much to Gyarados, forcing it to run Thunderpunch and waste a slot better used for a support move of some sort, be it status or healing. I don't mind Ice moves for this reason, but Rock moves are a no-no.

[FinnRagetti]

I second the notion. I believe that both Rock Slide and Stone Edge should not be used on CAP6. There will already be enough with Ice Punch and Thunder Punch to cover its counters without either of the rock moves. So, no rock moves.

[Lawman]

Tennis, Zapdos should be able to outstall Stone Edge with Roost, but I can see your point with Gyarados. However, I would see Stratagem usage increasing even further with Gyarados being common, seeing as a Life Orb Ancientpower OHKOs. I don't see Gyarados usage being beneficial to the metagame. In fact, I would bet that Gyarados being present would shift the metagame towards offense, while keeping usage of Stratagem, Tyranitar, and several of the top 10 up.

[Hyra]

I want to know why everyone is assuming this will get Bulk Up. It doesn't achieve the concept at all, since Bulk Up doesn't change how it fairs against any one the top five and would just create a similar situation to Revenankh (albeit Air Lock versions vs. ShedRest versions). I don't see why CAP needs to create two Fighting-type Bulk Uppers; the goal of CAP 6 is not to sweep but to prevent sweeps.

A lot of people are assuming it will be able to boost the damage from Stone Edge, ThunderPunch, and Ice Punch, which it can't as of now. So don't use that as an argument.

[DougJustDoug**]

Originally Posted by Fat Hyra

I want to know why everyone is assuming this will get Bulk Up. It doesn't achieve the concept at all, since Bulk Up doesn't change how it fairs against any one the top five and would just create a similar situation to Revenankh (albeit Air Lock versions vs. ShedRest versions). I don't see why CAP needs to create two Fighting-type Bulk Uppers; the goal of CAP 6 is not to sweep but to prevent sweeps.

A lot of people are assuming it will be able to boost the damage from Stone Edge, ThunderPunch, and Ice Punch, which it can't as of now. So don't use that as an argument.

QFT.

It's very difficult to separate Attacking and Non-Attacking moves, since they work hand-in-hand, particularly with stat-up moves like Bulk Up. But, I just don't see how BU is essential to the concept of decentralization. Combined with the fact that we have already made the most amazing Bulk-Upper imaginable (Revvy), I see almost no reason to consider Bulk Up for CAP6.

I don't want to derail this thread into a full-blown argument over Bulk Up, since we'll have plenty of opportunity to discuss it in the Non-Attacking thread. My argument is more to say that we should not consider BU to be a foregone conclusion with this pokemon, so take that into account when considering your opinion for and against attacking moves.

[tennisace]

Quick question: Who exactly brought it up, because either I missed it or nobody said anything about it?

Anyway, to Lawman, that's the point, Stratagem usage will increase a little. However in response, CAP 6 usage will increase and the cycle will start anew, with a pretty balanced metagame after a little while.

[EmpoleonStaraptorStarch]

Stone Edge seems to be a problem... It limits Gyarados AND Salamence from coming in safely, which leaves Celebi, Slowbro, and Skarmory as the 3 remaining notable switch-ins. However, I disgust at the thought of putting Shadow Claw on it even more. He then gains perfect coverage, with a 120 power STAB move being one of them. Shadow Claw scares Celebi and Slowbro, more than Ice Punch and Thunder Punch, respectively, and takes up only *one* move slot. With a moveset of Shadow Claw, Waterfall, and Close Combat, you really have the options of--Skarmory, Tentacruel (Who's too frail physically defensively), Gyarados, and Salamence. Skarmory is occasionally 2HKO'd with Stealth Rock, Leftovers, and Life Orb factored in from Close Combat, thus eliminating most of its usefulness. Gyarados and Salamence couldn't switch in safely, either, at risk of taking a blow from one of the two punches that is nearly assured in the last moveslot. Shadow Claw, simply said, would turn the Decentralizer, into the Centralizer, seeing as it would have no real counters. The new Garchomp, per-say.

Say NO to Shadow Claw. Stone Edge is even less problematic.

[gorm]

hm interesting discussion!

But being allowed moves doesn't mean they have to be in the final movepool, just that they can. What if (IF) Wyverii's stork wins, and then people start derailing the movepool thread saying that "Brave Bird is too overpowered blahblahblah"? Better to discuss it now!

eh I'll take the risk.. im only going to support moves that i'm sure are a good idea for this guy.

i don't think having stone edge will mess up gyara as a good check necessarily, since it'll be

we could "further nerf it" and allow ice punch and rock slide

the thing is fast zapdos' will usually beat it if it's just ice punching rock sliding, and gyara is still a good check..

starmie being a great check is actually really attractive for me so yeah i am still against thunderpunch. it just doesnt seem like a necessary move.

i am supporting rock slide and undecided on stone edge, but if we agree that bulk u pmight be a bad idea, i'll support it.
i am also against u-turn/xscissor/attack order (attack order is an amazing move o_o)

lawman, the only thing we can predict is that "if gyarados can switch in on cap6, he'll be used more and his physical water stab make it hard for ttar/gem to domintate. (sure he outsped and ohkod by statagem but if he dds he'll ohko back ^_^.i dont like to theorymon up situations, i just think "more water stab=worse for alot of the top 5")


edit: shadow claw without stab would be for rev mostly.... celebi doesnt care about ip much less shadow claw. starmie is different but it's not as back as tpunch.... unless you're factoring the high crit rate i don't really see the problem =\

lol the new garchomp i think you are exagerating; tons of stuff will still ruin it, with or without shadow claw. fight ghost is still really good coverage i guess.


@tennis i brought it up but only as a reminder for the support movepool discussion

Originally Posted by Fat me

if we do give him ice shard im gonna be against setup moves of his own.. sd/bulk up +any combination of those 3 would be kinda scary =\

hope i didn't derail because after that i saw:

Originally Posted by Fat dk

[celebi and tangrowth] have more trouble with a Bulk-Up type set
[...]
I do submit that Stone Edge has the potential to be problematic on a Bulk Up set.
[...]
Unaware and its own ability to use Bulk-Up
[...]
there is no reason to believe this will lack Bulk Up
[...]
Sucker Punch also plays extremely well on a Bulk Up set. Too well, in my opinion

i don't mean to point any fingers but it's all dk's fault x)

[latinoheat]

Just want to show support for some moves previously mentioned in this topic. These moves being Brave Bird/Drill Peck/Zen Headbutt . I will just quote what i said in the previous topic for reasoning.

Originally Posted by Fat latinoheat

Maybe i am missing something but how does this thing actually beat Revenankh convincingly.

It might not be able to bulk up, but even without boosts it is still bulky enough to stall you out.

CAP6 252 Att/Adamant Waterfall vs Standard Revenankh = 32.03%-37.76%

3HKO - 4HKO


That is CAP6 with Max attack, which i doubt is going to be used as it needs to be fairly bulky to switch in. So at best your gonna 4hko, Revenankh can just rest off the damage.

So unless people are counting on something like Swords dance, i think we should discuss the following

Brave Bird/Drill Peck Probably art dependant this also would help against Celebi and Pyroak.

Zen headbutt Basically the same as Drill peck, but worse coverage

I can definitely see reasoning against the flying moves, as a lot of people want to keep Celebi as a counter. Despite this i think it is kinda risky for people hoping/relying on the fact that CAP6 gets Bulk Up to beat Revenankh, when a lot of people seem to be against it.


I also don't really get how inferior moves like Dynamic Punch are pending

[tennisace]

I'm fine with Zen Headbutt but against the flying moves. The only reason would be to beat Revenankh, right? Celebi doesn't really care one way or the other, it gets Reflect and Recover.

[latinoheat]

I guess Flying moves do a bit more to Pyroak, its not like this thing will be freely switching into it though.

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat latinoheat

I guess Flying moves do a bit more to Pyroak, its not like this thing will be freely switching into it though.

Yeah but so does Stone Edge (which I'm still against btw), and STAB Waterfall does a number.

[Gothic Togekiss]

Why is it that Blizzard is still within the Pending list as well as the other moves? Can we please just stick them to the Allowed list and be done with them? =/

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

No, but it would help if we didn't remove a whole swath of reliable water-type checks at the very least.

I personally don't see Thunder Punch removing every single known Bulky Water to date but maybe things we change once it comes down to voting. I can still see some reliable water-type checks coming in onto CAP6 to stop it.

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Taunt is a fairly large assumption, one which I don't necessarily support, but that's for the next thread.

No, you won't. You assumed Taunt earlier, making Roar Suicune/Swampert meaningless.

Just as large as Bulk Up is. They're a good chance neither move make it or both do. Also I'll admit that since I did mention Taunt early, it would negate they're usefulness by a decent amount. You still can't do much to them unless you suddenly gain the ability to use Wood Hammer/Grass Knot.

Originally Posted by Fat SkarmBlissCounter

I'd rather Thunderbolt and not ThunderPunch to be on this to keep Tenta in the loop

If you're throwing Electric moves down might as well throw down Thunder, Charge Beam, and Shock Wave into the mixture. Was going to throw down Volt Tackle but that seem slightly off for some reason. Also Tenta is destoryed by Earthquake since it's stronger than any of it's stabbed move towards Meta and Jirachi. Yes EQ would probably waste a moveslot for it but suprising those Steel/Psychic bastard is sorta funny.

BTW, I support Thunder[Bolt], Shock Wave, and Charge Beam. Also I like to throw in this suggestion: Wood Hammer and/or Grass Knot.

[darkie]

They're pending because no one has talked about them or disputed their position.

[xcfrisco]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

I already did propose it multiple times, it's currently allowed unless you want to change it (which I will fight against.)

Anyway, I'm going to have to argue again against Stone Edge, if not Rock Slide along with it. I'm starting to think Gyarados being a solid counter is the best thing for the metagame.

I can somewhat understand people being against Stone Edge cause of the high base power but how can ANYONE be against Rock Slide and support Ice Punch and Thunder Punch on CAP6? Ice Punch already does as much Rock Slide to Zapdos and Thunder Punch ruins Gyarados, more so than Rock Slide AND Stone Edge.

So whats the big deal with adding a rock move exactly? CAP6 getting too much coverage? I don't see how Ice/Electric/Rock/Fight is any better than Ice/Electric/Water/Fight. Flyers and Fire pokemon are getting destroyed either way.

And why do people think of Stone Edge is such a controversial move? It has low PP, gets stalled out with Roost, and misses 20% of the time. Yeah it crits, but only 16% of the time (ie your more like to miss)

I'm for the addition of Rock Slide to the allowed movepool and to move Thunder Punch to controversial.

I would also like to see Stone Edge move to allowed IF Thunder Punch and Ice Punch are allowed as well.

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

I personally don't see Thunder Punch removing every single known Bulky Water to date but maybe things we change once it comes down to voting. I can still see some reliable water-type checks coming in onto CAP6 to stop it.

Which ones exactly?