CAP 6 - Part 11 - Supporting Moves Discussion

[Urza]

i don't really understand why bulk up is such a difficulty for people...i don't even really see this having time to bulk up against some of the top threats, because even if he has an advantage type-wise, many of them can and will switch around a bit to give CAP6 a run for it's money...if it's that big a deal, bulk up and no (or limited recovery), but seriously...bulk up isn't that scary. somewhere along the way, decentralizer has been a little lost, replaced with defensive tank...just because it can stat up and sweep doesn't mean it's not a decentralizer...

also, i have no problem with toxic, haze, roar/whirlwind

[Solstice]

Using Bulk Up makes sense for the Pokemons design, but Im against it. For one, Revenankh is already that ultimate Bulk Upper, and CAP doesnt need another one. The project would work better if we had another way to increase the Pokemons stats, I suggest Stockpile. It doesnt stiffle the Pokemon, but can still make it better defensively againt threats like Zapdos.

[billymills]

Swampert does fine with-out instant recovery, and i really don't understand why it's immediately in. Move Slack off to Controversial

Encore is by no means necessary, as any stat-uppers are switching out or attacking anyway because of Unaware. I just don't see a purpose for it.
Move Encore to Controversial

For the +2 stat ups, I can see an arguement for Amnesia and Agility, but i can not justify a water/ifighting getting either of the other three. While there are a few Water types to get Barrier and Iron Defense. They are all rather defensive based. There is only 1 fighting type pokemon that gets Iron defence (Lucario, and that's because it's a steel type). They do not seem justifiable. Move Barrier to Pending, Iron Defence to Controversial

There are two non-rock/ground/steel pokemon that get rock polish. Regice, cause it's a golem, and Mew. And this gets it for no reason without so much as 1 vote being cast? Move Rock Polish to Pending/Not Allowed

[Urza]

but revenankh also has a better typing for bulking up...(bulkupping?). it's weak to flying, psychic, and ghost. CAP6 is weak to electric, grass, flying, and psychic. difference here is in the number of predominantly special weaknesses...since CAP6 takes supereffective from a number of commonly used special attacks (most notably thunderbolt), it's going to get hurt a bit more.

i donno, i dont think all this fuss over bulk up is worth it. it's one of those in-game rules that i feel is better left unfussed with. same thing with anyone suggesting this not get toxic...

[X-Act]

I'm actually against Bulk Up. A Pokemon with Swampert-like physical offense and defenses with Bulk Up seems like too much in my books... but maybe I'm wrong. It IS learnt by all Fighting types in the game, but maybe here it is time for an exception... Maybe Meditate or Howl could be allowed, though, if Bulk Up doesn't make it.

The same consideration goes for Curse.

I agree with Stockpile. It's a nice little move and it's nowhere near broken.

I think this Pokemon shouldn't have any recovery moves besides Rest and Drain Punch. Aqua Ring though should be considered.

Depending on the Pokemon's design, Featherdance or Charm would be interesting.

Finally, what about Psych Up? You ignore your opponent's stats with Unaware, but you copy them. I think it would largely shut off the strategy of stat-upping, so I'm concerned about it. However I'd like input on it.

[Deck Knight]

Bulk Up for allowed:

I Support Bulk Up. Unlike Revenankh, this pokemon has no immunities to switch in on, and the coverage on Water/Fighting is inferior to Ghost/Fighting. It still has mediocre speed, and if it were to run Max Atk/Speed, it would still be vulnerable to a number of pokemon, Rotom and Starmie coming to mind immediately. All the Bulk Ups in the world won't save it from SpecStar.

Psych Up for Controversial:

Psych Up would be pretty darned evil, allowing you to steal another pokemon's negated boosts. However, I also realize this has the potential to be unstoppable, such as if you were to copy a Belly Drum + Salac Charizard or something. So I say put it up for debate.

Hypnosis to Unallowed:

No really, this isn't Poliwrath+, and it doesn't need a Sleep move.

Agility to Controversial:

I don't believe +2 Speed is necessary, nor do I particularly like how well it works with Taunt.

[Urza]

bulk up should at least be allowed. it doesn't have to be in the movepools. swampert also has a far better type, and it gets curse, which for something in this speed range, is pretty much exactly the same thing.

agreeing with psych up as a possibility. it'd work great with unaware and totally fit concept wise.

[billymills]

While it is not going to have the impact bulk up rev did, this does not have to be a better Cursepert, so i'll go against Curse and Bulk Up for the time being.

Psych Up is interesting, but i think it takes away from the intended De-centralizer, and makes it a Anti-Stat Up pokemon. While that isn't bad, it is not the intended effect.

I'm Interested as to charm, doesn't aware cancel any attack boosts on the opponent, positive and negative?

[X-Act]

Originally Posted by Fat billymills

I'm Interested as to charm, doesn't aware cancel any attack boosts on the opponent, positive and negative?

Hmm, the Unaware page says only boosts are ignored, but I dunno... I'm almost sure that it ignores also stat-downs. But even if it did, if you switch to something else, the stat-downs would work.

[Time Mage]

I'm strongly against the combination of Bulk Up/Curse and an instant recovery move. Either one is fine, more so the recovery move than BU/Curse, but definitely NOT both.

That said, I'd prefer Bulk Up and Curse going to Unallowed.

[xcfrisco]

I support Howl and Meditate to stay in the allowed movepool. CAP6 is pretty slow and i'm pretty sure +1 attack doesn't magically turn 2HKO's to OHKO's for its counters. Plus, a stat-boosting move always causes problems with coverage due to moveslot syndrome.

I could see Bulk Up being scary only if paired with a solid recovery move. I don't see the comparisons being drawn to Revvy when CAP6 has way inferior special defensive typing (CAP6 trades Revvy's Ghost weak for Grass and Electric). Secondly, Revvy gets two turn instant recovery with ShedRest. These two factors make Revvy such a monster (plus better coverage with Ghost/Fight, etc, etc).

Therefore I would like to see the addition of either Bulk Up or Slack Off to allowed. One but not both, so we don't have Revvy ver. 2

Ninja Edit: I more strongly support Bulk Up over the instant recovery move so stalling out CAP6 becomes an option for a way to indirectly counter CAP6, as opposed to CAP6 stalling out all its counters.

[sbc]

Uh lol why is Bulk Up controversial - it means that you can actually beat revenankh 1 vs 1 (yeah they have no purpose hyra!) and it's not as if the likes of machamp and hariyama with similar speed and defences (and less weaknesses and more attack) are broken with it or indeed actually use it. Move it to allowed.

edit: ok, a lot of people drawing comparisons to revenankh if it gets bulk up which is plain nonsense as far as I can see. First of all Water/Fighting coverage is far, far inferior to Ghost/Fighting; hello Gyarados, Starmie, Slowbro, Celebi, Salamence heck even Toxicroak. And the defensive typing aspect; added weakness to Thunderbolt sticks out and Zapdos and Rotom say hi. And without ShedRest and assuming we don't give it a recover move (which it shouldn't get) this thing is no where near broken (not even revenankh is) it's only going to be at best a shitty mono-attacker like CursePert not Revenankh v2.

also what is the competitive difference between milk drink and recover? just lump all 50% recovery moves together in whatever section. With bulk up I think any recovery move other than Wish should be banned with bulk up so this isn't revenankh part 2 and isn't ultra durable.

In favour of Thunderwave but not Hypnosis. Let Poliwrath at least have an advantage over this thing.

[jagged_angel]

SkarmBlissCounter, Meditate/Howl also allow CAP6 to beat Revenankh 1vs1 so I believe they should be allowed.

There is no competitive difference between Milk Drink/Attack Order/Recover/Slack Off/Roost but some are exclusive (Attack Order, Recover) and some are flavour moves (Roost) so I believe darkie has realised some people might vote against 50% recovery moves purely on a flavour basis which would fuck up the voting thread. There's no way to tell the reasoning behind peoples' voting. It is safer to keep Recover/Slack Off together and leave the others in Unallowed.
I am fervently against Bulk Up as I believe CAP6 needs solid recovery in order to successfully decentralise - most people will be switching out of CAP6 on any pokemon that is seriously threatened by it. As a result, CAP6 is going to need to be able to switch in and out alot and only Recover/Slack Off/Equivalent give it the chance to do this. Therefore I support Recover/Slack Off being Allowed.

Bulk Up on the other hand stops it from freely switching in and out since you wont want to lose 2 boosts let alone 4 if you get two Bulk Ups in. As such, adding Bulk Up to CAP6 would be counterproductive IMO.
Bulk Up also gives such a naturally bulky pokemon with mediocre Attack a chance to become a sweeper and that would go directly against the concept of keeping this pokemon as a potent check to top level threats. Yes it still checks them but it would fit another role much better with Bulk Up.
Lastly, I believe that Aqua Jet/Mach Punch/Thunderpunch Is pretty good coverage and with two STAB priority attacks, this pokemon will be pretty good at sweeping after a few Bulk Ups. Lets not give it that option.

Stockpile on the other hand only boosts defences so is less of an issue than Bulk Up. Stockpile and Recover would make CAP6 pretty sturdy pokemon but as long as it does not get attack boosts, it still cannot sweep. Since sweeping is the main thing we wish to avoid with CAP6, I believe Stockpile should be Allowed/Controversial.

Originally Posted by Fat billymills

For the +2 stat ups, I can see an arguement for Amnesia and Agility, but i can not justify a water/ifighting getting either of the other three. While there are a few Water types to get Barrier and Iron Defense. They are all rather defensive based. There is only 1 fighting type pokemon that gets Iron defence (Lucario, and that's because it's a steel type). They do not seem justifiable. Move Barrier to Pending, Iron Defence to Controversial

I dont think moves should be put in a different category purely due to shaky flavour based reasoning. The movepool creators will decide on flavour so if the majority of people are happy with Amnesia, I believe Barrier and Iron Defence should stay in the same category. By the way, isn't CAP6 a defensive based Water type anyway?

Originally Posted by Fat X-Act

I think this Pokemon shouldn't have any recovery moves besides Rest and Drain Punch. Aqua Ring though should be considered.

Aqua Ring should be allowed as it is a form of recovery less potent than Recover/Slack Off but still competitively viable on such a bulky pokemon. It could see use, especially if this gets Amnesia/Barrier/Stockpile etc.
Most importantly, there are a number of people who believe 50% recovery moves would make CAP6 too strong so Aqua Ring gives them weaker option to support.

[sbc]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

SkarmBlissCounter, Meditate/Howl also allow CAP6 to beat Revenankh 1vs1 so I believe they should be allowed.

There is no competitive difference between Milk Drink/Attack Order/Recover/Slack Off/Roost but some are exclusive (Attack Order, Recover) and some are flavour moves (Roost) so I believe darkie has realised some people might vote against 50% recovery moves purely on a flavour basis which would fuck up the voting thread. There's no way to tell the reasoning behind peoples' voting. It is safer to keep Recover/Slack Off together and leave the others in Unallowed.
I am fervently against Bulk Up as I believe CAP6 needs solid recovery in order to successfully decentralise - most people will be switching out of CAP6 on any pokemon that is seriously threatened by it. As a result, CAP6 is going to need to be able to switch in and out alot and only Recover/Slack Off/Equivalent give it the chance to do this. Therefore I support Recover/Slack Off being Allowed.

Bulk Up on the other hand stops it from freely switching in and out since you wont want to lose 2 boosts let alone 4 if you get two Bulk Ups in. As such, adding Bulk Up to CAP6 would be counterproductive IMO.
Bulk Up also gives such a naturally bulky pokemon with mediocre Attack a chance to become a sweeper and that would go directly against the concept of keeping this pokemon as a potent check to top level threats. Yes it still checks them but it would fit another role much better with Bulk Up.
Lastly, I believe that Aqua Jet/Mach Punch/Thunderpunch Is pretty good coverage and with two STAB priority attacks, this pokemon will be pretty good at sweeping after a few Bulk Ups. Lets not give it that option.

Why does this thing need solid recovery at all? In fact it would be counterproductive to make this thing impregnable to the likes of ttar by not being able to wear it down. The last thing we want is for this to be a one stop counter to everything that you can switch in mindless ala Blissey, that would make it a centralising force more than a decentralising one.

And all these pokemon switching out of it because they are threatened? No shit sherlock (don't meant to be rude) but that means the pokemon is doing a good job. Don't switch it in reckless then and don't expect it to be a one-stop counter.

And who says it needs recovery to keep it alive anyway; look at Bronzong, Forrestress, Swampert and Cresselia who don't have a good 50% recovery move they aren't known for being worn down easily. It's not like this thing doesnt have x2 SR resist anyway.

Your point with bulk up making it a sweeper is flawed; Blissey gets Calm Mind and is naturally bulky therefore people will use it as a sweeper. Look at Machamp and Hariyama; how many of them are bulk up users because bulk up is quite essentially a shit move nowadays unless it is on something like Revenankh with virtual immunity to status, instant recovery and perfect type coverage which this thing is far from having.

[Atlas]

i like detect/protect and foresight to be moved to allowed. foresight, a staple for fighters so they can hit ghosts (im well aware that no one/very few uses it though) and detect/protect for better survivability.

id also like to see swagger/flatter to be moved to allowed. this is a risky move that can make or break your game, get the opponent confused and hope he hits himself. but if he should knock you out then youve got quite the mess on your hands.

mudslap for controversial, only because the majority of people hate accuracy modifiers, but it can help deter pokemon from staying in.

torment for controversial as well. this move can also help the decentralizing theme of this project. it effectively shuts down any "choice" sets.

and finally mudsport for controversial. this forgotten move make you resistant to electric attacks, i think that says enough on its own.

[TPM]

So, time to hear my input. First off, I have a question, how does Unaware affect your stats, does it only stop negative affects or not do anything? If it stops negative stat changes then Curse (along with Bulk Up) should be unallowed, they give far too much power and bulk to him. The only way I could see him getting those is if we do not give him a 50% healer, which I think he should definitely have. The other thing I could see happening is him getting Aqua Ring. Maybe it could be made that he can not learn Bulk Up by TM, only by breading, same goes for Recover/Slack Off, but learns Aqua Ring by level up, so you're forced to choose from Bulk Up or instant recovery.

[ferron]

haze on a poke with unaware seems a bit much. i vote to have it moved to controversial.

curse would do well in allowed, if only because of it being much more balanced than bulk up which people have been hounding for.

i also vote for stockpile to be allowed since it in no way is overpowered and can take the place of both amnesia and iron defense.

edit @piplup- it only effect your opponents stats, and only to their (special)attack and (special)defense.

[RBG*]

I have a problem with what people are saying how this shouldnt Counter the top 5, only check them. If it just checks most of the top 5, then i really don't think that it will lower the useage of the top 5. What is wrong with allowing it to counter some of the top 5 as well as checking others?

[darkie]

Clarifying:
Unaware doesn't change your opponent's stat boosts at all. It just ignores attack boosts when they attack and ignores defense boosts when you attack. If this guy switches out, they'll still have whatever boosts they had before you switched in.

Controversial simply means that a lot of people want a certain move, and a lot of people don't want said move.

New mentions go to Pending because 1 opinion isn't enough to make a decision on it.

If 1 person is against a certain move, it may still be in Allowed if everyone else is against it.

[Gothic Togekiss]

Why is Softboiled, Milk Drink, and Heal Order unallowed while Recover and Slack Off are allowed? All five moves do the same thing. Wouldn't it be logically to just lump all five move into one group and place them into the controversial list.

Personally I support the motion of moving Howl, Meditate,and Aqua Ring to the allowed list. I'm indifferent about Curse and/or Bulk Up and don't much care if they're allowed or not. 50% recovery moves I'm more inclined to say that they should be allowed.

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Agility to Controversial:

I don't believe +2 Speed is necessary, nor do I particularly like how well it works with Taunt.

Speaking of Taunt I say let's move it to Controversial as well and see what people think of it.

[Wyverii]

Charm/Featherdance is interesting when combined with unaware. It provides the user with no benefit but it can set other Pokemon up to take the opponent down if they don't switch out. I see no reason not to allow these two in but I doubt the amount of use it'll get outside of gimmick sets. Swagger is also interesting for the similar reasons and will probably get more use.

I don't support mudslap or mudsport. Accuracy lowering moves are annoying at best and don't provide much competitive merit and wasting a moveslot for electric resistance just seems like a cheap excuse to try and take Zapdos on.

GT: Milk Drink/Heal Order are signature moves so there's really no reason to have them up there and Softboiled is very limited. The difference is only in flavour.

[Urza]

this bulk up nonsense is ridiculous. skarmbliss is absolutely right here. a bulk up set would be gimmicky...how often do you see one weakness curspert!? sure, it'd be dangerous, but these things are supposed to be dangerous! how else would it be a decentralizer? just stick bulk up in the tm list and be done with it...

[dmlaw]

I don't like Thunderwave much because it seems a bit too powerful when we've deliberately given this average speed, and that's completely leaving aside the fact that it doesn't seem right on a water type (however many already have it) I would have no objection to Glare, if people really want a paralysis move.

Also, presumably Will-O-Wisp is disallowed?

[billymills]

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

I dont think moves should be put in a different category purely due to shaky flavour based reasoning. The movepool creators will decide on flavour so if the majority of people are happy with Amnesia, I believe Barrier and Iron Defence should stay in the same category. By the way, isn't CAP6 a defensive based Water type anyway?

Shaky flavor-based reasoning? I sighted the last pokemon who got those moves, saying that Lucario is the ONLY fighting type to get a +2 defense move. Why don't we give this Aeroblast, Trick Room, or gravity? Because there is no reason to give them it based on the precedent set by the real games. If this was a mod server that changed everything, then i could understand, if this pokemon was vastly different from the fighting types we've seen, i'd understand. But it isn't, so don't give it Iron Defence and Barrier.

I see to problems with Meditate and Howl nor Aqua ring. It would be rather strange to see a fighting type without some way of boosting its attack.

As to Bulk Up, there is one fighting pokemon that does not get it: Arceus. It might be a little difficult to reason a bulk up ban, but it might be necessary.

[gorm]

I'm still unconvinced on bulk up due to all three priorities passing, as well as thunderpunch/stone edge tacked onto ice punch+it's stabs seem like nutty coverage... essentially i can't see anything threatening the bulk up+3 attacks set bar celebi/skarm/zapdos, but i guess the lack of recovery/status vulnerabilities counterbalance that.