Pride & Prejudice - A Suspect RMT by TAY

[Ancien Régime]

Since your team loves Magnezone so much, why not use Substitute on Salamence? It helps scout for steels as well, and forces them to attack because the risk of switching in fear of Magnezone, or using a fighting/ground/fire move is too great as they risk a Dragon Dance. Also helps scout priority users.

[RaikouLover]

I'm agreeing with TAY 100% that, as he says, its sad such a "childish" strategy can work. This is a brilliant argument for Latias to stay uber imo, but that is another topic.

How is that brilliant argument? Sure, you can win with a team like this but that doesn't mean Latias is uber. For starters, this team isn't even using the typical 3-ice weak dragons anyway, Kingdra is of a different breed. Also, this team is far from perfect and probably won't be as successful on a standard ladder. It works now because everyone is using the same tired strategy of "hey, let me use Magnezone + Scizor + Dugtrio to eliminate steels and Latias counters, then throw in 2 or 3 dragons!" on the suspect ladder.

Honestly, this team proves absolutely nothing in terms of Latias tier status. All it says really is that TAY is a better battler than the hundred other people using a direct varient of this on the suspect ladder (and if you've been there, you will know what I'm talking about). In no way does this 3 dragon + 3 steel team make other teams less viable, as I am not the only one who has been able to use a standard Platinum team on the Suspect Ladder with no problems. Well guess what, TAY has a Gyarados weakness. TAY has a horrid Salamence weakness. TAY has a Weavile weakness.

Also, in regards to Ancient Regime above me. Choice Scarf Magnezone isn't exactly a great steel killer to begin with. Sure he can come in on Metagross' Meteor Mash but what stops Metagross from just Earthquaking Magnezone into oblivion. Magnezone is only gonna 3HKO the damn thing with Thunderbolt anyway.

[Duck Tape Son]

The only reason Scarf Magnezone should even be used in my opinion is if you have a team weak to Lucario. Other than that Magnezones should really be Sub Magnet Rise ones, with the rise of Salamence I don't know why I'm seeing a lack of Bronzong use (Heatproof Zong being the best switch-in to MixMence). I just don't get why Scarf Zone is viable besides trapping Lucario and maybe outspeeding Ape and Gengar which both have seen less use. Ape because of Latias and Gengar because of Scizor.

You have Jolly Salamence to at least outspeed Lucario, but you can't switch in all the time due to Stealth Rock and you said in the beginning that you don't care if SR is set. Latias can't touch Lucario. Kingdra is simply slower and is OHKOd by +2 CC of either Adamant/Jolly (I think Jolly). Heatran is outsped. Scizor is in the same boat as Kingdra. So yeah I guess Scarf Magnezone is your safe bet against Lucario, and is probably the only reason your using it? It is a tough choice really. Maybe if you try HP Fire on Latias? Something to consider maybe?

[Duck Tape Son]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Lol, he needs it to counter Scizor.

Right I forgot to mention something else too. Now I never said replace Magnezone. But aren't are all Scizors Adamant? Max Speed for that is 229, and when is there ever a Jolly Scizor? Now if you have Timid Magnezone sitting at 230 Speed you can outspeed and KO with HP Fire, right? And Scarf Magnezones are Timid anyway so the decrease in power due to nature won't hinder it.

I'm guessing Scarf Magnezone is used just in case Jolly Scizors are used? As well as Lucario. Those are the only two things I see being reasons in using it.

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

EDIT: Whoops, meant Lucario, lol. And Scizor.

Yeah, I'm quite aware that Scarf Magnezone should be on this team rather than the Sub one, as... well I mentioned it but he'll have a Lucario weak is he doesn't have Scarf Zone

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Also, in regards to Ancient Regime above me. Choice Scarf Magnezone isn't exactly a great steel killer to begin with. Sure he can come in on Metagross' Meteor Mash but what stops Metagross from just Earthquaking Magnezone into oblivion. Magnezone is only gonna 3HKO the damn thing with Thunderbolt anyway.

Pretty much the reason why I went on saying Scarf Zone's few uses was just going further on from this quote. I was agreeing with you and all I did was further build the reasonings.

[TAY]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Honestly, this team proves absolutely nothing in terms of Latias tier status. All it says really is that TAY is a better battler than the hundred other people using a direct varient of this on the suspect ladder (and if you've been there, you will know what I'm talking about). In no way does this 3 dragon + 3 steel team make other teams less viable, as I am not the only one who has been able to use a standard Platinum team on the Suspect Ladder with no problems. Well guess what, TAY has a Gyarados weakness. TAY has a horrid Salamence weakness. TAY has a Weavile weakness.

I have already said I have a gyarados weakness, and suggestions were made to help take care of that. And it isn't like it's as simple as "if kingdra is KO'd I lose to gyarados." The rest of my team is far from useless even if it has a DD (and especially if it holds life orb, as so many are bound to do these days). I am well aware that the team does not do well against DD / DClaw Salamence, but again, I have ways to beat it...I wouldn't say I have a "horrid" weakness when probably 90+% of the salamences on the suspect ladder do not run Dragon Claw, and I am obviously prepared to deal with those. Regarding what you seem to think is a massively terrible weavile weakness: I don't see it. Weavile fails to OHKO Heatran, Kingdra, Scizor, and Magnezone, and is OHKO'd in return by all of them. Even if it gets a swords dance, one intimidate will stop it from OHKOing both Kingdra and Magnezone (unless it runs Life Orb in the latter case). You're ignoring the fact that weavile cannot set up against most of my team - and even if Latias is out there is a decent chance I would just stay in and attack since (ignoring useless prediction arguments) Latias is not OHKOd by Weavile's Ice Punch if it doesn't have LO or Band. There's always the chance that I will just assume it is using pursuit and attack it anyway. Long story short: the suspect ladder has been packed with weaviles in response to Latias; trust me: I can deal with it. Weavile's destruction of my team is a lot more situational than you imply.

And regarding Latias making other teams "less viable", that was never my argument. I argued that it creates a massive incentive to use Dragon and Steel types; it makes this type of team more viable than a standard Platinum team. Also:

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Right now, it seeps Scizor is the only thing keeping your team together, and its gonna fall to Magnezone as they are everywhere.

Isn't this evidence in my favor?

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Also, this team is far from perfect and probably won't be as successful on a standard ladder.

I'm not sure how that is relevant since I am not playing on the standard ladder. And if I somehow was able to I doubt I would do badly in an environment where no one prepares for Latias.

Originally Posted by Fat Duck Tape Son

The only reason Scarf Magnezone should even be used in my opinion is if you have a team weak to Lucario. Other than that Magnezones should really be Sub Magnet Rise ones, with the rise of Salamence I don't know why I'm seeing a lack of Bronzong use (Heatproof Zong being the best switch-in to MixMence). I just don't get why Scarf Zone is viable besides trapping Lucario and maybe outspeeding Ape and Gengar which both have seen less use. Ape because of Latias and Gengar because of Scizor.

Well I probably should have gone into more detail in my original descriptions. The only steels I really need magnezone to beat are Lucario, Scizor, Skarmory, and other Magnezones. Beating Bronzong and Metagross would be nice, but they aren't the major offensive or defensive threats that the others are (except for agilitygross which is a huge pain, but which a mag rise zone couldn't beat anyway).

Originally Posted by Fat Legacy Rider

TAY, just one other thing. I was playing around with your Latias' EV spread, and I was thinking maybe 148 HP, 108 SpA, 252 Spe would be more useful.

This is a really good idea and I will probably do it.

In response to the most recent discussion about magnezone: It really, really needs to stay scarf. If I switched to another item then Lucario would probably be a bigger threat than Gyarados. All I could really do would be to intimidate it or try to force a CC or two so I could ping it with Latias or Scizor, but if they see my plan and SD again it wouldn't even matter.

[RaikouLover]

And regarding Latias making other teams "less viable", that was never my argument. I argued that it creates a massive incentive to use Dragon and Steel types; it makes this type of team more viable than a standard Platinum team.

I take your point on everything you said except this. I don't really see how it creates a massive incentive to use only two types, as many have already stated that "regular" teams are still unaffected and just as successful. Anyway, I would be happy to bring this up in the Latias discussion thread or PM since I don't want to clutter your RMT anymore with an argument.