Team Su(b)perior Democracy

[Duck Tape Son]

Originally Posted by Fat IchooseU

But not much people would listen anyways.

You mean read?

I'd oppose against Starmie if Rapid Spinning is the only reason of using it. With the high chance of Rotom forms appearing on stall teams, there's not much use for Starmie and Rapid Spinning in general. However if you want to use a LO set that can 2hko the standard Rotom then by all means try it, just not positive on having Rapid Spin on that same LO set, negating the whole purpose of Starmie in the first place. However, ToF is right about Spikes and Toxic Spikes causing trouble, so Starmie is something to try against those rare stall teams without Rotom or hell any Ghost.

That said, if you're going to use Starmie, then I'd highly recommend CB Tar over Hippo so you can pursuit Rotoms and Dusknoirs and open up a BP sweep for Scizor or prevent them from WoWing your Rhyperior. It's simply a good wall breaker in general, especially when faster than Skarmory (96 Spe EVs to outspeed Skarms with Spe EVs, may seem like overkill but it's worth wild imo). However I guess WoW can hinder the concept, at least in conserving HP. That also said maybe fit in Wish or even Cleric Bliss? Possibly over S-Toss and add Flamethrower over Ice Beam? Now these are changes if you were to add Starmie, but with T-Tar added your now fucked by Lucario even more, and in addition DD Mence (ugh me and my terrible suggestions, my theorymon seems good but overall produces crappy results, oh well best I can do lol). Still Toxic Spikes is the main concern as it's the reason why Hippo will fall to Lucario and Salamence in time.

Nitpicking... keep HP Electric on Slowbro, Slowbro with Surf beats Swampert anyway, at least non Curse versions. Besides, HP Grass; T-Bolt; Heat Wave is good coverage for your Zapdos there in dealing with Swampert.

Overall, you have the common threats down. Nice team Hector <3

[RaikouLover]

This is an excellent fucking team. Well-constructed, and truely puts the plan in action, nice job guys.

However, you have a serious Kingdra weakness. DD Kingdra looks a bit threatening, but you can work around it. However, Rain Dance Teams in general just destroy this team. I really don't know what you can do about it, but Mixdra is going to rip this team apart. I would suggest Vaporeon over Slowbro, who can counter Mixape and Gyarados, but then your team becomes very weak to Machamp. So perhaps Vaporeon + Rotom could work, with Rotom over Zapdos. Then you can slap Roar on Hippo and still have a check against many fighting pokemon. Some defensive Variant of Rotom will work nicely. And you will find that a Vaporeon + Rotom + Blissey + Hippowdon is a seriously infuriating defense. You do however, lose a bit of offense from Zapdos, which is one department where you may be lacking. Perhapes a Swords Dance + Roost Scizor instead of CB?

[SoT]

Holy shit, this is the best RMT format I've seen in my life. Coupled with an amazing team, this is is just a kickass thread. 5 Stars no doubt!

Anyway, onto the team, it's a solid team. Nothing more to say. ._.

Since I don't want to look like a moron, I'm gonna theorymon a bit here. You seem to have a bit of trouble with Mix Tyranitar, as they can damage your team a lot, and you really don't have a reliable switch in. Your best bet is just to predict around a bit, or you're going to have to end up sacrificing a pokemon in order to kill it. Just watch out for that.

Another think I noticed was how a CB Mamoswine, even LO Mamoswine can cause you some trouble. Ice/Ground/Rock can really hurt this team, sso just beware of that. I'm scared to really suggest switching anything in or out, since this is a solid team, and I'd end up chaning a lot of the team so I'm just gonna leave as is.

Boy am I glad that Colonel M posted that Rhyperior thread. That has been nothing but good for that beast. (I take 25% credit since I did a warstory and made him post the topic =P.) Anyway, this guy is finally getting the usage he deserves, and this topic will help bump that up even higher.

[Valantaro]

This is an extremely solid team, and seeing some Rhyperior action is always good. As a whole, this team seems to really focus on physical defense, which is good, but something such as MixApe can pose a massive problem:

Infernape @ Life Orb
Naive
172 Atk / 192 Spe / 144 SpA
Fire Blast
Close Combat
Stone Edge
Grass Knot

It really causes pain (as you said) but you can work around it with Slowbro and Hippowdon taking Grass Knot without being OHKO'd. However, both can be worn down on the switch in.

For example, your Hippowdon takes 78% minimum from Grass Knot. It seems solid, but if Hippowdon comes in on Close Combat (32% minimum), it will be 2HKO'd. Slowbro, however, can take it pretty reasonably, as Grass Knot only 2HKOs, meaning if you come in on Close Combat, you'll defeat it.

CB Tyranitar also poses a reasonable threat. CB Scizor is your only true insurance to it, as Rhyperior is OHKO'd by Aqua Tail 100% of the time, and Hippowdon takes 53% minimum (Stealth Rock is the only thing you have to worry about here). Of course, you have Scizor, but unless you're reckless enough to switch it in (not a good idea, since it takes 98% minimum from Stone Edge), it can revenge kill with Superpower.

Anyway, I really like the team, and all the threats mentioned can be worked around with prediction and switchting in the on right time. Excellent team.

[Shaft]

Have to admit it, it really looks amazing. On the team, Ive already gave my visions about it and send my version to Malachi (more offensive orientated team) but I do like this version too. You still have got some Infernape problems tho, and I think Vaporeon>Slowbro would work out great for this. Machamp would give you more problems (still got Zapdos)but you get a better counter for Infernape and Gyarados in return. The set is debatable but for now is Surf/Hp Electric/Wish/Protect the best. Option between protect and roar depends on Zapdos having Roar. On the evs, I always tend to use 252 hp/252 def/6 sp atk since Mixape can 2hko with Close Combat otherwise. Anyways again, I really like the team, and want to compliment you about it, nice work between Scizor and Perior etc. I might look again to the team and give another rate, but I think this is enough for now xD.

Edit: Didn't see RaikouLovers post.. o well.

[vashta]

I should let myself known to you guys since I think it's rude enough of me having Hector post this. Sorry about that.

Originally Posted by Fat Thorns

Wait, tutor? Is this something you have on your TU forums or something?

Anyway, just because the team is beautifully and flawlessly presented, doesn't mean I can't rate it!

Definitely use Grass Knot over HP Electric - sure you lose coverage vs Flyers, but that's negligible and you need the kill on. Swampert anyway.

Zeta better be a damn good predictor, because MixApe can and will hurt this team if your Slowbro is in KO range.

Nice work on the team building too, you don't see much people who pit I'm the effort nowadays.

Grass Knot seems the better option at the moment. Gyarados' are rendered useless after T-Wave, though TauntDos has proved troublesome since, from what I have encountered, Grass knot has done a pitiful 26% on the Bulky variants. I've not encountered any Offensive ones so I'm not too sure about that.

Originally Posted by Fat Twist of Fate

Hmm...format wise this is the best RMT I have ever seen, so good job noob Hector =).

About the team, seems you lose somewhat to heavy stall. Toxic Spikes + Spikes take care of the majority of your team, and if said stall holds a decent lategame sweeper like Lucario, I feel you lose. I know Slowbro is an integral part of your team, countering a variety of threats, but I feel Starmie can fit the role better, and accomplish basically everything Slowbro does with the addition of Rapid Spinning.

This is from a theorymon perspective of course, so if the team is working without the need of a spinner, by all means keep the current design. However, from a pure theorymon perspective, Skarmory can set up spikes fairly quickly, and against a smart player, Toxic Spikes can be set-up as well. Spinning away the entry hazards allows you to maximize Rhyperior's life, as well as deny Toxic Spikes from ruining your fun.

Starmie also adds some form of speed to this team, which is fairly slow in general. Sure you have Thunder Wave to slow down opposing threats, but its always nice to have the speed in some situations. Can't really find many holes in the team, so overall great job. I'm still in awe of the format though, that must have took you a loooong time. Kudos on that.

I actually did think of this as you might have seen on my post on Marriland (lol). Erm, I actually am in the process of testing Starmie. So far it's working. Especially the Rapid Spin factor since Stall teams (such as farmers) really do screw me.

Originally Posted by Fat Flashstorm1

From my own perspective, I can see Tyraniboah giving you some trouble since your team is rather well covered by a standard Focus Punch / Substitute / Dark Pulse / Ice Beam set, since only Scizor and Rhyperior really only deal with that coverage effectively. I'd recommend investing some HP EVs on Scizor simply because I don't find adding speed EVs to Scizor really necessary, especially when Magnezone is specifically EV'd to outspeed Adamant versions anyways. Also, investing in HP EVs will help you against some very threatening special sweepers such as Gengar and Starmie in case Blissey goes down for whatever reason.

I am also in support for HP Grass on Zapdos simply because most of the pokemon that set up are either handled by Heat Wave (in the case of Scizor) or Zapdos dies before it can successfully phaze (in the case of Swords Dance Lucario [with Stone Edge], etc.). In all honesty, your team may not necessarily need a phazer since the rest of your team already counters the most common set-up pokemon. HP Electric is also a must on Slowbro so you can counter Gyarados, who can otherwise sweep your team.

I've already started testing HP Grass on Zapdos whilst Slowbro has HP Electric. Seems to be working, so I'll continue using that. As for what you said about Scizor, I should have asked Hector to put that I'm running the 252 HP / 252 Attack Scizor as recommended by mien a few days ago. Seems to be working better than the 252 Attack / 252 Speed variant.

Tyraniboah is definately a problem and it is a pain to take down. As for Vaporeon, it shall be tested.

You mean read?

I'd oppose against Starmie if Rapid Spinning is the only reason of using it. With the high chance of Rotom forms appearing on stall teams, there's not much use for Starmie and Rapid Spinning in general. However if you want to use a LO set that can 2hko the standard Rotom then by all means try it, just not positive on having Rapid Spin on that same LO set, negating the whole purpose of Starmie in the first place. However, ToF is right about Spikes and Toxic Spikes causing trouble, so Starmie is something to try against those rare stall teams without Rotom or hell any Ghost.

That said, if you're going to use Starmie, then I'd highly recommend CB Tar over Hippo so you can pursuit Rotoms and Dusknoirs and open up a BP sweep for Scizor or prevent them from WoWing your Rhyperior. It's simply a good wall breaker in general, especially when faster than Skarmory (96 Spe EVs to outspeed Skarms with Spe EVs, may seem like overkill but it's worth wild imo). However I guess WoW can hinder the concept, at least in conserving HP. That also said maybe fit in Wish or even Cleric Bliss? Possibly over S-Toss and add Flamethrower over Ice Beam? Now these are changes if you were to add Starmie, but with T-Tar added your now fucked by Lucario even more, and in addition DD Mence (ugh me and my terrible suggestions, my theorymon seems good but overall produces crappy results, oh well best I can do lol). Still Toxic Spikes is the main concern as it's the reason why Hippo will fall to Lucario and Salamence in time.

Nitpicking... keep HP Electric on Slowbro, Slowbro with Surf beats Swampert anyway, at least non Curse versions. Besides, HP Grass; T-Bolt; Heat Wave is good coverage for your Zapdos there in dealing with Swampert.

Overall, you have the common threats down. Nice team Hector <3

Again, ClericBliss has already been tested and has earned a spot > the set you see on the first post. It's helped me so much in terms of supporting Scizor and Rhyperior in particular. And, to an extent, Hippowdon. So I'll be keeping things the same there. Oh, and ClericBliss is currently the same set with just Aromatherapy > Ice Beam.

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

This is an excellent fucking team. Well-constructed, and truely puts the plan in action, nice job guys.

However, you have a serious Kingdra weakness. DD Kingdra looks a bit threatening, but you can work around it. However, Rain Dance Teams in general just destroy this team. I really don't know what you can do about it, but Mixdra is going to rip this team apart. I would suggest Vaporeon over Slowbro, who can counter Mixape and Gyarados, but then your team becomes very weak to Machamp. So perhaps Vaporeon + Rotom could work, with Rotom over Zapdos. Then you can slap Roar on Hippo and still have a check against many fighting pokemon. Some defensive Variant of Rotom will work nicely. And you will find that a Vaporeon + Rotom + Blissey + Hippowdon is a seriously infuriating defense. You do however, lose a bit of offense from Zapdos, which is one department where you may be lacking. Perhapes a Swords Dance + Roost Scizor instead of CB?

Hmm, I actually like the idea of Vaporeon + Rotom. Seems viable. Once I've tested all the other suggestions, I surely come to this. The idea of Sword Dance + Roost is one I don't like, but, I guess, with Vaporeon and Rotom, I could try it again. I'll give you some feed back on that. It would change the whole team, too, so.. I am a bit wary of what happens then after testing. We'll just have to see.

Holy shit, this is the best RMT format I've seen in my life. Coupled with an amazing team, this is is just a kickass thread. 5 Stars no doubt!

Anyway, onto the team, it's a solid team. Nothing more to say. ._.

Since I don't want to look like a moron, I'm gonna theorymon a bit here. You seem to have a bit of trouble with Mix Tyranitar, as they can damage your team a lot, and you really don't have a reliable switch in. Your best bet is just to predict around a bit, or you're going to have to end up sacrificing a pokemon in order to kill it. Just watch out for that.

Another think I noticed was how a CB Mamoswine, even LO Mamoswine can cause you some trouble. Ice/Ground/Rock can really hurt this team, sso just beware of that. I'm scared to really suggest switching anything in or out, since this is a solid team, and I'd end up chaning a lot of the team so I'm just gonna leave as is.

Boy am I glad that Colonel M posted that Rhyperior thread. That has been nothing but good for that beast. (I take 25% credit since I did a warstory and made him post the topic =P.) Anyway, this guy is finally getting the usage he deserves, and this topic will help bump that up even higher.

CB Mamo is a problem when Scizor is out of line. That's why Scizor is such a big part of my team. Erm, the best I can really do is predict around and try and get the Bullet Punch in, isn't it? But no-one's stupid enough to do that. =/

@ Valantaro : CB Tyranitar is a slight pain with Aqua Tail, but it's never been a massive one. A bit of prediction never hurt.

@ Schaft : I can't believe you actually logged onto smogon to see this. :P ;-;
Erm, look at my response to RaikouLover. Lol.



Thanks for the rates everyone. And to Hector for posting this (whilst I was.. a bit wary that I wasn't ready).


EDIT; What about Slowbro running: Surf / Grass knot / HP Electric / Slack Off? Seems viable if you ask me. Then again, I do lose Thunder Wave. =/

[Bounty]

It seems like Flame Orb Heracross, a Jolly one, rare as it may be, could wreck a lot of this team. It could easily come in on Blissey, who can't hit it hard at all, get a SD as you switch to Hippowdon, and start Facadingyour team, as it outspeeds absolutely everything. Sure, after a while SS and Flame Orb recoil will take it out, or Scizor's BP, but it will take down at least one of your pokes to open the road for a sweeper like DDTar. It is for this reason I advise you to change Zapdos' nature to Timid, so it can outspeed Jolly Hera's, or add something like a Rotom-H over Zapdos.

[vashta]

Someone else actually PM'd me and suggested that, too. I'll take your advice on board and test that. Seems like it could work, regardless of the cut in SpAtk.

[sora13]

Originally Posted by Fat Vashta Narada

EDIT; What about Slowbro running: Surf / Grass knot / HP Electric / Slack Off? Seems viable if you ask me. Then again, I do lose Thunder Wave. =/

Why don't you try a simple CM set like this

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Bold
252 HP/ 252 Def/ 6 Sp Atk
-Calm Mind
-Slack Off
-Surf
-Grass Knot

You will still 2KO Gyara and OHKO Swampert after a CM, and both can't do much to you in the meantime. This makes it so much more of an offensive threat.

[HECTORtu]

Currently we're trying out 3 attack moves + SO and the CM set. We haven't used Twave over a coarse of battles, so we see no use in it as Rhyperior mostly switches in on locked choicers or pokemon that can't do anything to it.

[I am Gengar]

If you haven't been using T-wave on Slowbro then why not try out Trick Room? It would be a complete reversal of fortune since most of your team is quite slow and would probably help Rhyperior set up as well since he's so slow. Oh, and amazing team-building process by the way. Good luck!

[Slapjax]

I'll admit this is a bit odd, but i once had an extremely successful team that had a dual screener, then a very bulky/sp.defensinve gliscor would come in and set up a bp. because the gliscor had taunt, most phazers became set up fodder. if something like electivire or metagross got a sd or two you might be in trouble. Honestly, if i were you i would take that one in a million loss and keep the other 999,999 you'll probably be getting with this team. Nice work ; )

EDIT: upon further inspection a mixmence with brick break, draco meteor, fire blast/and outrage could do pretty big damage with some good prediction. Also i think that trick room on slowbro would be an excellent idea.

[nyczxjay]

Originally Posted by Fat Slapjax

I'll admit this is a bit odd, but i once had an extremely successful team that had a dual screener, then a very bulky/sp.defensinve gliscor would come in and set up a bp. because the gliscor had taunt, most phazers became set up fodder. if something like electivire or metagross got a sd or two you might be in trouble. Honestly, if i were you i would take that one in a million loss and keep the other 999,999 you'll probably be getting with this team. Nice work ; )

The type of team you're referring to is an OU version of the BP Mew team in Ubers and it's really not something you can counter unless you figure out what kind of team it is within the first 2-3 turns.

[HECTORtu]

Originally Brick Break was used over Superpower but there was such a lack of DSers, that we decided to ditch Brick Break for Superpower, since we yet have to encounter one of those teams. I don't think we'll be running Trick Room, but yes I see your point, but we prefer the option of having all the attack we originally wanted on Slowbro.

[vashta]

Originally Posted by Fat 1234gjy

Simply amazing.
This is like a guide for how to build the team around a certain pokemon!
I am going to try making a team your way.

LOL at the above post.
I had once put snatch on bliss, it's so hard to use.

You're really going to get grounded, away from the PC for a day; take a pen and a book with all you thoughts and make a team that way? :P

[Flashstorm1]

Actually, I was wondering: would you allow others to use this format when posting RMTs in the future? Your method for team construction is very effective and I would like to try it out myself.

[vashta]

Originally Posted by Fat Flashstorm1

Actually, I was wondering: would you allow others to use this format when posting RMTs in the future? Your method for team construction is very effective and I would like to try it out myself.

I don't mind others using it. chaos 9 did. Though he did credit me. You can see here.

[Philip7086]

Team's decent. I mostly wanted to post to applaud you for this insanely detailed RMT. I've never seen one this crazy before o_O

Edit: As for constructive criticism, I'd say change Ice Beam to Flamethrower on Bliss. Dugtrio isn't too common, and you'd need to hit it on the switch to even win anyways w/ Ice Beam. SpecsMence... you shouldn't even mention cause Blissey will win no matter what attacking move it has. There just generally seems to be more Fire-weak threats nowadays than Ice ones. Also, since you have Toxic, Flamethrower will compliment it if your opponent tries to switch to a Steel type to resist the Toxic.

[RaikouLover]

One of the things I've noticed in looking at this team again (looking to see how I can use the super-cool Slowbro!), is that you have an astonishing weakness to Toxic Spikes, which is something somewhat uncommon on the platinum metagame. Just watch out for it. I was looking through your threat list and the main thing that caught my eye is that Seven Deadly Sins' Empoleon team, and many other Empoleon teams uses the strategy of Toxic Spikes + Empoleon for sweeping. Just wanted to point out that if you encounter one of those teams, Empoleon is going to 6-0 you real quick. Blissey won't stop it with 2 layers of Toxic Spikes on the field, and everything else is OHKOed (Slowbro if you face the Grass Knot varient). Scizor's bullet punch won't save you either, since it won't even muster 15% :-(...

[vashta]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

One of the things I've noticed in looking at this team again (looking to see how I can use the super-cool Slowbro!), is that you have an astonishing weakness to Toxic Spikes, which is something somewhat uncommon on the platinum metagame. Just watch out for it. I was looking through your threat list and the main thing that caught my eye is that Seven Deadly Sins' Empoleon team, and many other Empoleon teams uses the strategy of Toxic Spikes + Empoleon for sweeping. Just wanted to point out that if you encounter one of those teams, Empoleon is going to 6-0 you real quick. Blissey won't stop it with 2 layers of Toxic Spikes on the field, and everything else is OHKOed (Slowbro if you face the Grass Knot varient). Scizor's bullet punch won't save you either, since it won't even muster 15% :-(...

Raikou, thanks for pointing that out. Toxic Spikes is a MAJOR threat in my team. Everytime I encounter it, I can never do anything about it and it usually (if not always) results in Good Game. I think I will have to test Starmie over Slowbro (oh how it hurt me saying that). It seems like the most sensible thing I can do to relieve me of such a threat. Then again, if you think about it, Toxic Spikes isn't as frequent as it once was. So... meh.. I'll have to see how the further testing goes, and again, I will conclude with an analysis of all my testing experiances.