New DPP Tier Lists

[ANinyMouse]

The old BL tier was fallacious. This is 100% true and irrefutable based on Smogon's current methods.

Old UU was potentially flawed, but then again maybe it wasn't. It was different, however, and that's 100% true and irrefutable. What made it different? The fallacious BL list and refusal to test it. In that respect the politics of old UU were perhaps flawed, but it is a stretch to say that something was fundamentally wrong with the games played in the old UU tier itself, as it operated fairly well and had many ardent supporters.

I see where Chou is coming from, but I think he's just getting his points mixed up. Tangerine, honestly, you ought to have just kept things simple and explained plainly why Chou's progression of logic didn't jive instead of going on a huge diatribe. Chou your wall of text was ridiculous; succinctness is a virtue.

[X-Act]

In Policy Review, I'm suggesting that the 'Neverused metagame' be called the 'Little Used Metagame' instead.

[wildfire393]

Originally Posted by Fat X-Act

In Policy Review, I'm suggesting that the 'Neverused metagame' be called the 'Little Used Metagame' instead.

Are there any future plans to separate the "Little Used" from what will eventually be the "Never Used"?

[Chou Toshio]

Originally Posted by Fat Tangerine

I'll let you figure out why this statement is ridiculous, arrogant, and pompous... especially since... you don't seem to understand my point at all (then again...)

Anyway, to respond your entire post.

Yes, I know each Pokemon is unique. Yes, each Pokemon is powerful in its own way. However, the biggest part of team building is metagaming, IE, choosing effective Pokemon based on what other people are running.

If we choose only based on what each Pokemon can do without thinking about anything else, then the metagame is 100% static. It's easy to see that this is not the case. Then what brings about the changes? because people observe the metagame and make choices based on it. What is effective, what is not, depends on the metagame.

What is the metagame made of? it's made of all the available choices within that tier. What does this mean? People will metagame differently depending on the restrictions given. What does this mean? Banlists will be different.

Let's leave it there. You seem to be into economics, let's see if you can apply it here and figure out what i'm talking about :)

If you want people to understand you, then perhaps you should explain yourself so that you will be understood. :)

I don't even know why we are arguing, since you know that there is a uniqueness to each pokemon's strength that has to be taken into account and I know the importance of considering the metagame as a context. That said, the context is not out of place-- in either case it is the same set of pokemon in BL + UU, give or take a few pokes that may have moved in/out of OU. You made a reference to economics-- study of decision making-- and you want to say that people's decisions change with circumstance. Fact is though that in both cases, the same pokes with the same stats were under debate.

@ANinyMouse-- how's that for to the point?


PS Tang-- As an economist, I also think I must be an idiot for getting so much utility from arguing with you Tang.

[Deck Knight]

Looks like I might have to consider using Timid Scarf Manectric lead instead of Modest assuming Yanmega is running Timid and Speed Boost...

[X-Act]

Originally Posted by Fat wildfire393

Are there any future plans to separate the "Little Used" from what will eventually be the "Never Used"?

No. There are no plans to have more than the three metagames, which are Standard, Underused and Never Used. My suggestion was just to rename the 'Never Used metagame' to the 'Little Used metagame'.

[Lou Cypher]

Why don't we just call stuff like this:

Faux Tier 1
Tier 1 (OU)
Faux Tier 2
Tier 2 (UU)
Faux Tier 3
Tier 3 (NU)
Faux Tier 4
Tier 4 (Lower then NU for all those Masquerain/Dustox/Delcatty fans)

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Originally Posted by Fat Lou Cypher

Why don't we just call stuff like this:

Faux Tier 1
Tier 1 (OU)
Faux Tier 2
Tier 2 (UU)
Faux Tier 3
Tier 3 (NU)
Faux Tier 4
Tier 4 (Lower then NU for all those Masquerain/Dustox/Delcatty fans)

Because apparently most people don't like those names as they lack 'character'. Also, from the looks of NU so far, the idea that the likes of Masquerain and Delcatty are destined for 'top-tier' status in Tier 4 is looking rather optimistic to me. It may turn out that way, but I wouldn't bank on it, they may very well remain way down on the pecking order.

Another point I'd like to make is that this initial nUU tier list is not necessarily an accurate reflection of what NU will be like in the future. The main reason being that the six current suspects will not all necessarily go to BL, and any inclusion of these next month is bound to have a significant effect on the usages, and subsequently the tiers.

[joshe]

Can someone sticky this?

anyways I like the way the tiers are named. It gives it Character.

[MagicMon]

Wait a second.. Uber's isn't a metagame? One thing I don't get is that Slaking is NU. I think that it's a force to be reckoned with.

[Veedrock]

Ubers IS a metagame; people play it, it has its own ladder, there are statistics from those that play it. What you mean is that it isn't a "real" tier.

[david stone]

I'm interested in the effects of an altered tier list in the middle of stats gathering (the banning of the UU suspects from the ladder). I'm concerned it will artificially raise the amount of standard UU Pokemon, because the banning of those Pokemon will necessarily cause other Pokemon to raise in usage, creating an inflated upward trajectory of those Pokemon.

I haven't actually looked into what effect this has on the formula, it's also possible that it decreased the size of standard in UU (because certain Pokemon were not counted, and they were taking up usage from other Pokemon).

It really depends on your counting methodology, I guess. How were the UU suspects taken into account? Did you look at the stats with those Pokemon removed (so if there were 100 usages, 15 of which came from suspects, you pretended like there were 85 usages)?

Originally Posted by Fat ChouToshio

@Lemmiwinks-- I don't mind, let's go to absurdity. People here are so in love with pure logic that common sense rarely gets a chance.

I think that's a good thing. "Common sense" is useful for quick judgments, but in this case, we have time to think it out. Common sense can be wrong. "Pure logic" is never wrong, as long as you are working from valid premises. Arguing against logic is like a scientist arguing against the scientific method (except a little worse because not all arguments rest on the scientific method). "So what if I changed twelve variables in this test? It's obvious what caused the change.".

You're right that it's not "definite" but it's the best indicator we have, and that's why we use it in teiring process.

I do agree that usage and strength tend to be related (people use Pokemon because they think it will help them win), I do not agree that this is why we use usage to tier Pokemon. I don't support usage as a one-degree-removed measure of power, I use it as a direct measure of usage. The lower tiers allow Pokemon we don't see much in the higher tiers to be used in the lower tiers. The "BL" tiers exist because usage doesn't always create balanced tiers.

Originally Posted by Fat Veedrock

Ubers IS a metagame; people play it, it has its own ladder, there are statistics from those that play it. What you mean is that it isn't a "real" tier.

When people say ubers isn't a real tier, what is meant is that it's not a balanced / 'competitive' tier. We don't make decisions about balance when talking about ubers. I mean, it's obvious we can't. Even ignoring the fact that ubers is by definition unbalanced (it is the set of Pokemon that create unbalance in OU), let's imagine for a second that we could create a balanced uber tier by banning a few Pokemon from ubers... Where would we send them? To a higher tier! Then this higher tier would actually be the uber tier, and the lower tier would be a playable tier...

[zocho]

going back to the yanmega discussion for a sec, would a lead swellow be able to beat it?

[10fore]

Originally Posted by Fat 12345

One thing I don't get is that Slaking is NU. I think that it's a force to be reckoned with.

Truant is a miserably crippling ability. The fact is, anyone who he can't KO in one hit gets a free turn. Period. And they know it. He requires extreme prediction to use, and is generally extremely predictable. He forces switches, but they are free switches. If you outpredict, he's good, but he's entirely reliant on prediction to be any good, and nobody predicts perfectly. Too risky.

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Originally Posted by Fat zocho

going back to the yanmega discussion for a sec, would a lead swellow be able to beat it?

Best case scenario would probably be that you kill it whilst killing yourself at the same time. If Yanmega has a super-effective Hidden Power then Swellow loses, but even if it doesn't, Air Slash would most likely put Swellow in critical range, leaving you to die from Poison / Burn at the end of the turn, or the turn after. That's assuming no Life Orb or Focus Sash.

About Slaking, another crippling factor is the fact that ANYTHING with Protect beats it with ridiculous ease one-on-one. The fact that there are still many things that it fails to OHKO even with perfect prediction in NU adds insult to injury. That's not to say that Slaking will be a bad Pokemon there by any means, it is just that it will be no easier to use and not much harder for a good player to take advantage of.

[zocho]

Originally Posted by Fat Lemmiwinks MkII

Best case scenario would probably be that you kill it whilst killing yourself at the same time. If Yanmega has a super-effective Hidden Power then Swellow loses, but even if it doesn't, Air Slash would most likely put Swellow in critical range, leaving you to die from Poison / Burn at the end of the turn, or the turn after. That's assuming no Life Orb or Focus Sash.

the question is, is brave bird a ohko? swellow naturally outspeeds yanmega on turn one, so if it has focus sash swellow could finish it on turn two with quick attack. if yanmega protects on turn one, you could switch to a counter on the next turn.

i'm not exactly sure what would happen, and i've only faced a yanmega once, just throwing ideas out there for potential counters if yanmega leads oversaturated uu.

[Peachfuzz]

Originally Posted by Fat zocho

the question is, is brave bird a ohko? swellow naturally outspeeds yanmega on turn one, so if it has focus sash swellow could finish it on turn two with quick attack. if yanmega protects on turn one, you could switch to a counter on the next turn.

i'm not exactly sure what would happen, and i've only faced a yanmega once, just throwing ideas out there for potential counters if yanmega leads oversaturated uu.

The standard Yanmega would probably have Focus Sash, and standard Swellow would have Flame Orb. Turn 1 Yanmega would Protect as Swellow does whatever (doesn't matter). Yanmega can 2HKO Swellow with Air Slash while Swellow can 2HKO back, but it would be slower after 2 turns of Speed Boosts. Maybe Swellow would start running Quick Attack over U-turn or even Protect.

I faced a Tinted Lens Specs Venomoth of all things earlier today, and it is a bitch to wall. Yanmega is an even heavier hitter with 116 base Special Attack with the same ability (and Flying STAB is more useful than Poison).

Yanmega is going to be a bitch to offensive teams, who seem to be a bit lacking compared to the defensive side of UU. It can already tear apart offensive teams in OU, so teams will need lots of priority or a dedicated special wall to take on Yanmega.

[zocho]

i know what you mean about venomoth. needless to say, in addition to the omnipresent shaymin and milotic, add yanmega to the mix.

and yeah, i wouldn't be surprised if more pokes started running quick attack, since yanmega has a 4x resist to mach punch
the key will definitely be keeping rocks on the field to discourage it from switching in

[Erazor]

Any decent player who uses Yanmega in UU will use a spinner alongside him, along with Pursuit Support/some way of dealing with ghosts. So maybe the number of ghosts will rise to combat the Rapid Spinners?

Plus, Yanmega can be EVed to become very bulky on the Physical side(Rayquaza's ExtremeSpeed is a 3HKO), while not worrying about speed due to Speed Boost.

[Justice_X]

What? Regice is NU? I understand that Stealth Rock deals 1/4 damage to it but it's still good enough to be UU. Why is Hypno NU? I always though it's the "Blissey" of UU like some people claimed it to be.

Sorry for sounding noobish (if it does) due to my lack of knowledge of Smogon, but I feel the NU tier is very unbalanced. There's needs to be a RU (rarely used) tier. Besides, almost every Pokemon is used some time or another.

[Kefka]

Hopefully the NU metagame will popularize most of the "unbalanced" NU Pokémon enough to make them UU, so that there is no need to have an extensive NU ban list.

[Veedrock]

That's a double edged sword though; by promoting them for UU play, you're also kicking out current UU pokemon in NU.

Sorry for sounding noobish (if it does) due to my lack of knowledge of Smogon, but I feel the NU tier is very unbalanced. There's needs to be a RU (rarely used) tier. Besides, almost every Pokemon is used some time or another.

NU was just created; it's hard to theorymon a stable metagame (look at old UU). And there are talks of splitting NU in 2: LittleUsed (the upper division of NU) and NeverUsed (essentially LU, but not used enough. I like to think of it as pokemon with no tier, as it likely won't have its own metagame apart from LU).

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Fat Obi

When people say ubers isn't a real tier, what is meant is that it's not a balanced / 'competitive' tier. We don't make decisions about balance when talking about ubers. I mean, it's obvious we can't. Even ignoring the fact that ubers is by definition unbalanced (it is the set of Pokemon that create unbalance in OU), let's imagine for a second that we could create a balanced uber tier by banning a few Pokemon from ubers... Where would we send them? To a higher tier! Then this higher tier would actually be the uber tier, and the lower tier would be a playable tier...

This got me thinking about something quite interesting. Isn't our current OU environment similar in some ways to the way the old UU was? When DP first came out, we had a list of Pokemon banned from OU, which consisted of Pokemon deemed Uber in previous generations, and those we presumed to be Uber from this generation (Darkrai, Dialga, etc.).

Now that we've seen the error of forming a UU tier based on theorymon and not experience, would it not be logical to do the same for OU? Would it not make sense to move every Uber down to OU, and then move them up to Uber again only after testing them all together, similar to the process with our current UU suspects? OU would then be what's left over when those deemed broken are no longer present.

Maybe we would end up with the exact same banlist as we have now, but from a consistency point of view, I feel this would be a logical thing to do. In reality it would be a lot of work and would affect our current metagame so much that it really doesn't make sense to do so (we have currently upwards of 250,000 OU battles a month on the Shoddy server, while we only have roughly 30,000 UU ones).

Still though, now that we have a more accurate way to determine tiering, we should keep this in mind for next generation. Instead of pre-determining every Pokemon's tier and moving things up and down as we see fit, we should work from the top down, the way we're currently organizing BL, UU, BL2, and NU.

[wildfire393]

I have an interesting idea. Currently, there are three "metagames": Ubers, OU, and UU. Each of these metagames has a cutoff - for Ubers, it's all pokemon, for OU, it's everything not labeled/banned to "uber", and for UU, it's everything not used enough to be in OU and not labeled/banned to "BL". There also exist 2 other "tiers": BL and NU, which are Pokemon allowed in a certain tier level, but not used enough to make the appropriate list (OU/UU respectively). Ubers stands out as the only "tier" to be defined only as a Ban list and not with usage statistics. However, these usage statistics are available. I suggest that "Uber" be broken up into two tiers: OUber, and UUber. The first tier is those Uber Pokemon that are "overused" in the Uber metagame, and the second part is essentially BL for OU - Pokemon that are too good to be allowed in OU, but not good enough to really stand on their own in the tier they are allowed in.

This is probably really unnecessary, but it'd at least serve to symmetricize the tiering. Additionally, if "Rarely-Used" is going to become its own tier, I suggest a similar divide; ban anything that breaks it to a "borderline" tier, and anything that doesn't make the usage requirement after that becomes the true "Neverused".

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Originally Posted by Fat Justice_X

What? Regice is NU? I understand that Stealth Rock deals 1/4 damage to it but it's still good enough to be UU. Why is Hypno NU? I always though it's the "Blissey" of UU like some people claimed it to be.

Sorry for sounding noobish (if it does) due to my lack of knowledge of Smogon, but I feel the NU tier is very unbalanced. There's needs to be a RU (rarely used) tier. Besides, almost every Pokemon is used some time or another.

I never really heard that Hypno was the Blissey of new UU. Chansey has always been UU's Blissey.

NU/LU/RU/whatever will be balanced in the end because we'll be having a ban tier for it, if needs be.

And, we're having 3 usage tiers at the moment. A 4th one has not been confirmed yet. We'll only have a 4th one if there is enough demand for it 6 months or so down the line.