Common Leads

X-Act · May 4th, 2009, 10:21:40 AM

I decided to apply the OU algorithm to the Leads list, to find the "OU Leads" for the various ladders. And here they are:

Standard Ladder:

Code:

Abomasnow
Aerodactyl
Azelf
Bronzong
Gyarados
Heatran
Hippowdon
Infernape
Jirachi
Metagross
Ninjask
Smeargle
Swampert
Tyranitar
Weavile
Yanmega

(16 Pokemon)

Uber Ladder:

Code:

Darkrai
Deoxys-A
Deoxys-S
Dialga
Groudon
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Ninjask
Shaymin-S
Tyranitar

(10 Pokemon)

UU Ladder:

Code:

Ambipom
Arcanine
Crobat
Electrode
Hippopotas
Lopunny
Nidoqueen
Persian
Roserade
Smeargle
Steelix
Swellow
Uxie
Yanmega

(14 Pokemon)

Suspect Ladder:

Code:

Abomasnow
Aerodactyl
Azelf
Bronzong
Heatran
Hippowdon
Infernape
Jirachi
Mamoswine
Metagross
Roserade
Rotom-H
Skarmory
Swampert
Tyranitar

(15 Pokemon)

supermarth64 · May 4th, 2009, 10:37:23 AM

I actually haven't seen many Yanmegas, Weaviles, and Gyarados leads.

Also, I would prefer that we see the numerical orders for the leads, so I can know who's 10/11/w/e.

Other than that, this is nice.

Veedrock · May 4th, 2009, 10:43:35 AM

You can see those numbers in the statistics thread.

I'm confused on how to react to this. While I wanna say that's interesting, it doesn't seem right. Abomasnow is used on 1.97% of teams, far from what I'd consider overused or common. Perhaps it's just the centralization messing with the formula application? Whatever it is, I'm kind of strayed from finding value in the information. Thanks for doing it though, the work is always appreciated. Lead Skarmory on suspect is pretty amusing.

X-Act · May 4th, 2009, 1:08:43 PM

Those are the leads seen in at least one out of every 20 teams on average. Maybe that's why it doesn't look right.

yysame · May 4th, 2009, 6:58:36 PM

ya i thought that was weird, rly havnt seen that many abomasnows

MagicMaster87 · May 4th, 2009, 7:35:20 PM

How is Smeargle in the UU list? It was banned in March...

***RBG**** · May 4th, 2009, 7:37:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat MagicMaster87

How is Smeargle in the UU list? It was banned in March...

It was actually banned around April 13th.

Matthew · May 4th, 2009, 8:25:46 PM

Code:

Darkrai
Deoxys-A
Deoxys-S

I find it really odd that Deoxys-A is more of a common lead than Deoxys-S. I mean come on! Deoxys-S is everywhere and Deoxys-A is... well not as often.

MagicMaster87 · May 4th, 2009, 8:27:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat RB Golbat

It was actually banned around April 13th.

Oh, could've sworn it was mid-March... >.<

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Gen. Empoleon

I find it really odd that Deoxys-A is more of a common lead than Deoxys-S. I mean come on! Deoxys-S is everywhere and Deoxys-A is... well not as often.

I doubt it was, these lists are alphabetized.

Staraptor Call · May 4th, 2009, 8:29:15 PM

I've definitely seen more Uxie leads than Abomasnow or Weavile lately. I also use one, and it's working fairly well.

Sir_Lu · May 4th, 2009, 11:40:57 PM

nvm

The list looks pretty cool. I'd state that it was alphabetized, and not in order though.

But every 20 battles seems. A lot.

X-Act · May 5th, 2009, 3:04:50 AM

The lists are in alphabetical order, not usage order.

shipship · May 5th, 2009, 4:17:13 AM

People still lead with NoobJask?

lol

X-Act · May 5th, 2009, 7:00:00 AM

Here are the Pokemon that have have a good probability of being leads in at least 1 out of every 4 teams (I consider this to be the definition for a leading Pokemon to be frequently-seen):

Standard Ladder: None! (46474 usages are needed to qualify)

Uber: Deoxys-S, Darkrai, Groudon, Kyogre (1336 usages are needed to qualify)

UU: Ambipom (4776 usages are needed to qualify)

Suspect: Azelf, Jirachi (300 usages are needed to qualify)

Colloquy · May 5th, 2009, 4:45:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Gen. Empoleon

I find it really odd that Deoxys-A is more of a common lead than Deoxys-S. I mean come on! Deoxys-S is everywhere and Deoxys-A is... well not as often.

Deoxys-A plays differently as a lead than Deoxys-S. It can set up Stealth Rock like it, but also counter Kyogre, Tyranitar, Deoxys-S, and others. It's more offensive.

Anyway, thanks X-Act for these statistics.

Iris · May 5th, 2009, 5:03:43 PM

Thanks X-act for the statistics.

Ambipom leads are going to go down i think with crobat by next month's statistics. Crobats faster, has better survivability, and beats ambipom one on one.

Thorns · May 5th, 2009, 5:07:02 PM

Thanks X-Act, this is a lot more accesible. I see you've fixed your sig too ^_^

1059860 · May 5th, 2009, 5:41:01 PM

I'm quite surprised that Gengar leads, ones omnipresent, is gone. With Choice/Trick options, plus Destiny Bond/Sash options, it's not that bad.

wildfire393 · May 6th, 2009, 4:39:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat 1059860

I'm quite surprised that Gengar leads, ones omnipresent, is gone. With Choice/Trick options, plus Destiny Bond/Sash options, it's not that bad.

Gengar as a whole is less useful these days due to the omnipresence of Scizor. Not to mention anything that's an Anti Azelf lead is an anti Gengar lead, as they have similar stats. Basically, Gengar is Azelf with a weaker Explosion, slower speed, and no taunt/rocks. It was good back when Hypnosis was reliable, but these days it's not so much.

Diana · May 6th, 2009, 4:29:03 PM

Still, the thought of Weavile being used more than Gengar as a lead surprises me.. I know Azelf hates running up against one but I don't see the point.

wildfire393 · May 6th, 2009, 4:55:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Diana

Still, the thought of Weavile being used more than Gengar as a lead surprises me.. I know Azelf hates running up against one but I don't see the point.

Weavile can actually beat a surprising number of leads one-on-one with a combination of Taunt and Counter for slower stuff like Hippowdon, Bronzong, and Metagross and Fake Out + Night Slash for stuff like Azelf and Gengar. He's not fantastic, but he is one of the few Pokemon who can guarantee that Azelf doesn't get rocks down.

blasphemy1 · May 6th, 2009, 5:52:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat wildfire393

Gengar as a whole is less useful these days due to the omnipresence of Scizor. Not to mention anything that's an Anti Azelf lead is an anti Gengar lead, as they have similar stats. Basically, Gengar is Azelf with a weaker Explosion, slower speed, and no taunt/rocks. It was good back when Hypnosis was reliable, but these days it's not so much.

Not quite. Gengar has Focus Blast, which pairs with Shadow Ball for perfect coverage, and thus it will be running it on the majority of his sets. Meanwhile, Azelf fails to do anything to Heatran or Tyranitar without HP Ground/Fighting, neither of which will OHKO the latter. Focus Blast is unreliable, and nobody wants to get into a BP + Pursuit mindgame, so that is why he isn't used as often as Azelf, not because Ttar/Heatran wreck it.

Gwabatim · May 7th, 2009, 8:04:46 PM

Gengar can also use the countersash combo iirc

CREAM_93 · May 19th, 2009, 11:33:40 AM

ive only seen one abomasnow ever, even though i personally find hail quite effective i use a hail team sometimes myself. i gotta say though wtf are people still using ninjask? and i think aero should be used more for how good he is, he's the fastest non scarf lead and out-taunts everything.

bearsfan092 · May 19th, 2009, 5:51:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat CREAM_93

ive only seen one abomasnow ever, even though i personally find hail quite effective i use a hail team sometimes myself. i gotta say though wtf are people still using ninjask? and i think aero should be used more for how good he is, he's the fastest non scarf lead and out-taunts everything.

The answer is relatively simple as to why Ninjask still sees use. Quite a few players (especially newer players) see Ninjask as the easiest way of passing stat boosts to Pokemon. I mean, think about it. It's easy to get a +2 attack +3 speed (or similar) to something deadly like Tyranitar, Salamence, Gyarados, or anything else that can deal massive amounts of physical damage.

The reason why I say newer players use Ninjask more is because, in paper, Ninjask seems decent. However, Ninjask telegraphs your moves to your opponents. Nearly every Jask is a passer (hyperbole fail). It takes almost zero effort to use Protect, Sub, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, pretty much in that order.

This makes Ninjask extremely easy to counter. Even a +2 X-Scissor fails to pose an adequate threat to a defensive minded Pokemon. Its ability to be pseudo-hazed means that its passes are usually for naught. Even if Ninjask comes in on something other than a Pseudo-hazer, all one has to do is switch to the hazer and spam Roar/Whirlwind, blowing away the stat boosts the moment they're passed. In addition, Stealth Rocks take 50 percent from this bug, and factoring in subs, Ninjask usually gets only one chance to pass, and that one chance is easily denied.

But again, some users fail to realize how easy it is to counter Ninjask. If you don't stop Ninjask, there's a chance you'll end up 6-0'd. It works both ways. The inexperienced user doesn't know what to do against Ninjask and gets swept. The inexperienced user of Ninjask thinks that Ninjask is a good lead, leading to its higher usage.

And Aerodactyl gets screwed by Bullet Punch Metagross.

May 4th, 2009, 10:21:40 AM	#1
X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,679 Malta	Common Leads I decided to apply the OU algorithm to the Leads list, to find the "OU Leads" for the various ladders. And here they are: Standard Ladder: Code: Abomasnow Aerodactyl Azelf Bronzong Gyarados Heatran Hippowdon Infernape Jirachi Metagross Ninjask Smeargle Swampert Tyranitar Weavile Yanmega (16 Pokemon) Uber Ladder: Code: Darkrai Deoxys-A Deoxys-S Dialga Groudon Kyogre Mewtwo Ninjask Shaymin-S Tyranitar (10 Pokemon) UU Ladder: Code: Ambipom Arcanine Crobat Electrode Hippopotas Lopunny Nidoqueen Persian Roserade Smeargle Steelix Swellow Uxie Yanmega (14 Pokemon) Suspect Ladder: Code: Abomasnow Aerodactyl Azelf Bronzong Heatran Hippowdon Infernape Jirachi Mamoswine Metagross Roserade Rotom-H Skarmory Swampert Tyranitar (15 Pokemon) __________________ http://users.smogon.com/X-Act For all your Pokemon needs (and more!) including: the Defensive EVs applet, the Probabilities of Breeding IVs in Pokemon applet, and the Ratings of Pokemon Base Stats applet (now Version 2.0!). And also the IV to PID applet!

May 4th, 2009, 10:43:35 AM	#3
Veedrock Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,778 Location: Alaska, USA Occupation: Gamer Gamerscore: 84319	You can see those numbers in the statistics thread. I'm confused on how to react to this. While I wanna say that's interesting, it doesn't seem right. Abomasnow is used on 1.97% of teams, far from what I'd consider overused or common. Perhaps it's just the centralization messing with the formula application? Whatever it is, I'm kind of strayed from finding value in the information. Thanks for doing it though, the work is always appreciated. Lead Skarmory on suspect is pretty amusing. __________________ Now playing: Minecraft, Street Fighter x Tekken Last edited by Veedrock; May 4th, 2009 at 1:11:35 PM. Reason: %

May 4th, 2009, 1:08:43 PM	#4
X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,679 Malta	Those are the leads seen in at least one out of every 20 teams on average. Maybe that's why it doesn't look right. __________________ http://users.smogon.com/X-Act For all your Pokemon needs (and more!) including: the Defensive EVs applet, the Probabilities of Breeding IVs in Pokemon applet, and the Ratings of Pokemon Base Stats applet (now Version 2.0!). And also the IV to PID applet!

May 4th, 2009, 8:25:46 PM	#8
Matthew I love weather; Sun for days Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,574 Where the Sun finally sets	Code: Darkrai Deoxys-A Deoxys-S I find it really odd that Deoxys-A is more of a common lead than Deoxys-S. I mean come on! Deoxys-S is everywhere and Deoxys-A is... well not as often. __________________ ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ What bitgamer tehconnection popcorn last.fm

May 4th, 2009, 8:29:15 PM	#10
Staraptor Call Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,422 Avatar by Lorak	I've definitely seen more Uxie leads than Abomasnow or Weavile lately. I also use one, and it's working fairly well. __________________ ∩_∩ ¼_¼ φ_φ

May 4th, 2009, 10:37:23 AM	#2
supermarth64 I see sparks fly whenever you smile Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,316 Illinois	I actually haven't seen many Yanmegas, Weaviles, and Gyarados leads. Also, I would prefer that we see the numerical orders for the leads, so I can know who's 10/11/w/e. Other than that, this is nice.

May 4th, 2009, 6:58:36 PM	#5
yysame Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 28	ya i thought that was weird, rly havnt seen that many abomasnows

May 4th, 2009, 11:40:57 PM	#11
Sir_Lu Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 617 Texas	nvm The list looks pretty cool. I'd state that it was alphabetized, and not in order though. But every 20 battles seems. A lot. __________________ DP: 4639 5427 6190 BW: 5243 1245 3574 Just in: Hidden Power Electric Drizzletoad! Please respond in my thread or via VM.

May 5th, 2009, 3:04:50 AM	#12
X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,679 Malta	The lists are in alphabetical order, not usage order. __________________ http://users.smogon.com/X-Act For all your Pokemon needs (and more!) including: the Defensive EVs applet, the Probabilities of Breeding IVs in Pokemon applet, and the Ratings of Pokemon Base Stats applet (now Version 2.0!). And also the IV to PID applet!

May 5th, 2009, 4:17:13 AM	#13
shipship Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 177	People still lead with NoobJask? lol __________________ The best poker player on smogon. Proud to be atheist and vegetarian.

May 5th, 2009, 7:00:00 AM	#14
X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,679 Malta	Here are the Pokemon that have have a good probability of being leads in at least 1 out of every 4 teams (I consider this to be the definition for a leading Pokemon to be frequently-seen): Standard Ladder: None! (46474 usages are needed to qualify) Uber: Deoxys-S, Darkrai, Groudon, Kyogre (1336 usages are needed to qualify) UU: Ambipom (4776 usages are needed to qualify) Suspect: Azelf, Jirachi (300 usages are needed to qualify) __________________ http://users.smogon.com/X-Act For all your Pokemon needs (and more!) including: the Defensive EVs applet, the Probabilities of Breeding IVs in Pokemon applet, and the Ratings of Pokemon Base Stats applet (now Version 2.0!). And also the IV to PID applet!

May 5th, 2009, 5:03:43 PM	#16
Iris Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 261	Thanks X-act for the statistics. Ambipom leads are going to go down i think with crobat by next month's statistics. Crobats faster, has better survivability, and beats ambipom one on one.

May 5th, 2009, 5:07:02 PM	#17
Thorns Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 4,292 outrun my gun	Thanks X-Act, this is a lot more accesible. I see you've fixed your sig too ^_^ __________________ [19:01:02] <pookar> can u go 30/12/20 with karthus? fuckhead [19:01:26] <@LonelyNess> I can die more than that if I put my mind to it [19:01:43] <@LonelyNess> in fact I can die more than that even if I don't put my mind to it

May 5th, 2009, 5:41:01 PM	#18
1059860 Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 869	I'm quite surprised that Gengar leads, ones omnipresent, is gone. With Choice/Trick options, plus Destiny Bond/Sash options, it's not that bad. __________________ Liu Yi Fei = Hot

May 6th, 2009, 4:29:03 PM	#20
Diana Fennekin the cutest Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,258	Still, the thought of Weavile being used more than Gengar as a lead surprises me.. I know Azelf hates running up against one but I don't see the point. __________________ C&C work: 34 done, 2 partly done, finished 4th gen moveset errors

May 7th, 2009, 8:04:46 PM	#23
Gwabatim Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 61	Gengar can also use the countersash combo iirc

May 19th, 2009, 11:33:40 AM	#24
CREAM_93 Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 83 Australia	ive only seen one abomasnow ever, even though i personally find hail quite effective i use a hail team sometimes myself. i gotta say though wtf are people still using ninjask? and i think aero should be used more for how good he is, he's the fastest non scarf lead and out-taunts everything. __________________ Do you live in Perth, Western Australia and are interested in a community that meets up in real life to play competitive Pokemon? PM me for more information!