CAP 8 - Counters Discussion

[dorkknight23]

Electivire could potentially counter if armed with Earthquake and an Expert Belt and benefiting from a Motordrive boost coming in on an expected Thunder Wave or Bolt.

[1059860]

There are already many mentions so I'll actually name a few not-yet-mentioned-ones.

1) Regice
High Special Defense to take its attacks.
STAB Ice hit Super Effective against its low Special Defense.
What else is there to it? It hits the weakspot and takes the merits of Special Attack like nothing with its massive Special Defense (base 200).

2) Probopass
Hits its weakness with Super Effective Earthpower.
Switch into its Dragon attacks easily.
Can wall it if it doesn't have HP Fighting or HP Ground.
High Special Defense.
Uses Special Attack against CAP8's lower Special Defense.

3) Jolteon
Switches into any electric attacks easily and hit with its strong HP Ice that targets CAP8's lower Special Defense. Jolteon's Special Attack is very nice, too.

4) Lanturn
Great Special Sponge, can heal when switch into any Electric attacks then cripple it with Thunder Wave or hit it with Ice Beam.
I'll add more when I think more.

[aXl]

In reply to all of the Ttar counter ideas, there is a way to make EQ do squat. If the pokemon knows Magnet Rise, then EQ won't be able to do anything to it. The thing is, though, that if we give it MR, it would prob. only use it turn 1. This would then make moves like Roar and Whirlwind more popular.

But anyways, on the topic of counters, I'd say Ice should be the main counter in one way or another.

[Joatmon]

XandZero, Dragon/Electric only has a few weaknesses, and giving this pokemon magnet rise makes half of its potential counters moot. Also, what Ice type or Ice user is capable of switching in at all, with STAB of course. Regice? Ice is a great move to use, sure, but a pokemon doesn't need "main counters".

[Hegna]

Originally Posted by Fat XandZero2

In reply to all of the Ttar counter ideas, there is a way to make EQ do squat. If the pokemon knows Magnet Rise, then EQ won't be able to do anything to it. The thing is, though, that if we give it MR, it would prob. only use it turn 1. This would then make moves like Roar and Whirlwind more popular.

But anyways, on the topic of counters, I'd say Ice should be the main counter in one way or another.

Giving it magnet rise kind of compromises the "neglected ability" idea.

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

How's Zapdos for a check/counter? It can pressure-stall hits, isn't weak to CAP8's STABs, attacks with HP Ice and roosts when needed.

[Gothic Togekiss]

At the moment DK's list of counters and checks seem very reasonable to me. Personally I would like CAP8 to have both fire and water type moves in his options of offensive attack, but if I had to chose only one type set I would go with Water myself.

I don't know if people do this sort of thing with with Dragon Dance but wouldn't having access to DD change the rankings of checks/counter? You may not be using your attack stat all that much (unless it get a fighting move or two) but the increase in speed always seem like a good thing to me.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

At the moment DK's list of counters and checks seem very reasonable to me. Personally I would like CAP8 to have both fire and water type moves in his options of offensive attack, but if I had to chose only one type set I would go with Water myself.

I don't know if people do this sort of thing with with Dragon Dance but wouldn't having access to DD change the rankings of checks/counter? You may not be using your attack stat all that much (unless it get a fighting move or two) but the increase in speed always seem like a good thing to me.

All of CAP8's solid counters are slower pokemon anyway. It's the checks that get less and less credible with a speed boost, especially the Dragon checks. The Easter Egg Set is built around Dragon Dance. Basically it would need Volt Tackle, Outrage, and EQ to have a remotely credible set. Superpower was on there but I don't see a need to put it there, especially since there seems to be no justification as a Tutor.

How would anyone feel about a combination of Surf, Hydro Pump, and Overheat? OH has a built in incompatibility with Draco Meteor and the other special attacks. An example of an existing pokemon with only Overheat for a special Fire move is Primeape.

Originally Posted by Fat Admiral_Stalfos19

How's Zapdos for a check/counter? It can pressure-stall hits, isn't weak to CAP8's STABs, attacks with HP Ice and roosts when needed.

Problem being that most Zapdos are running Thunderbolt, Heat Wave, and HP Grass for Pert, or running Sub/Toxic. Zapdos is also deathly afraid of paralysis as it severely stops its ability to heal reliably or counter mediocre Stone Edges

So Zapdos is a paper counter, just like most Electrics with HP Ice, but the metagame probably won't support it. Basically you would need to base them around countering CAP8 at the expense of damaging Swampert, meaning you should expect to see a lot of Swampert/CAP8 combinations.

[Joatmon]

That would actually be really good, Deck Knight. I never thought of it that way, especially with Overheat. I have no complaints here about that.

[dorkknight23]

Originally Posted by Fat Hegna

Giving it magnet rise kind of compromises the "neglected ability" idea.

I don't understand why that is. Magnet Rise might give the abilities more room to use its abilities, helping it to ignore ground moves.

[pkmn-taicho321]

Originally Posted by Fat Krow

Hippowadon should be quite the... not counter, but they'll be brick walls at each other. Kinda sucky if you think about it. SS damage would eventually kill it though.

? Hippowadon is capable of doing decent damage with Ice Fang and hits rather hard with STAB EQ. Meanwhile Hippowadon can Slack Off residual damage. On the other end CAP8 is going to hate the possibility of being locked into thunderbolt on this pokemon, but Hippowadon has laughable SpDef. If CAP8 decides to carry around HP Ice for it's dragon counters (asumming is doesn't get Ice Beam or something) Hippowadon isn't going to last long. So I don't see were you are getting the idea that they'd "Wall" each other.

Flygon would be an excellent counter, immune to thunderbolt and fast enough (And quite often carrying Choice Scarf) to do good damage through EQ or Outrage/ Dragon Claw

Calm Mind Latias does a good job of ignoring all but the most powerful spreads and hits hard with Dragon Pulse, though mixed variants (however rare they might be) would be an issue.

Tyranitar takes everything like a trooper, even Earthpower off of a maxed out SpAtk Stat isn't enough to kill him with SS in play and CBTryanitar dishes out monter EQ's. Tyraniboah isn't going to do much unless it's got Ice Beam.

Gliscor has the defense and resistances to come in (not to mention Tbolt immunity) and scare it away with EQ.

[monkymeet]

Camerupt may be a possible counter, coming on a T-bolt and threatening back with a STAB'ed Earth Power, granted that this pokemon doesn't get a water move. Only problem with him is that his defenses are mediocre at best, so it could probably be taken out by a DracoMeteor...

[Deck Knight]

I'd like to note that *Ground type* is not inherently a counter just because it can come in on Tbolt. Otherwise Gyarados would counter Magnezone because it can come in on Flash Cannon and KO with Earthquake.

If your "counter" cannot take a Draco Meteor or deathly fears Thunder Wave, they are not a counter.

This applies to basically everything in the previous posts. Please use damage calculations. Also, Gliscor has inferior special tanking ability to Hippowdon. 108/72 > 75/75

[Joatmon]

Celebi resists Thunderbolt and can recover off a Draco Meteor. Natural Cure means paralysis isn't a problem, and leech seed in combination with Earth power are going to cause problems for Cap8.

[Magmortified]

Originally Posted by Fat dorkknight23

I don't understand why that is. Magnet Rise might give the abilities more room to use its abilities, helping it to ignore ground moves.

I wouldn't generally pack Magnet Rise to begin with. It takes up a valuable moveslot just to null the Ground weak. I'd prefer to take my chances and use the turn/slot doing something better.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Joatmon

Celebi resists Thunderbolt and can recover off a Draco Meteor. Natural Cure means paralysis isn't a problem, and leech seed in combination with Earth power are going to cause problems for Cap8.

Max SA Modest unboosted attacks vs 252 HP/ 0 SDef Celebi:

Draco Meteor: 52-67%
Dragon Pulse: 34-40%
Thunderbolt: 17-21%
Flamethrower: 48-56%
Overheat: 70-83%

Celebi's problem is that it tends to run physically defensive sets with little to no speed. CAP6 needs 164 Speed EVs to outrun 0 Spe Celebi. That's a bit of an investment but not a total one. Flamethrower is a 2HKO with SR, and short of hitting minimum damage twice Overheat will always 2HKO.

[Korski]

Ah, now that I'm done being yelled at in the art poll, I can move on to less touchy territory.

Toxic Blissey will wall this guy all day long, and there is almost no way around that. Snorlax is in a similar position, except that it can set up Curses while CAP 8 feebly does little damage and Rest it all off then let loose with EQ.

By the way, I'm really liking that we picked shield dust now that I'm considering this pokemon going up against others. Haxrachi and Haxkiss's flinch moves are both resisted by the electric typing, so I think they'll be running for the hills on the CAP Ladder from here on out. Awesome.

Anyways, I did the math, and Scarftran beats CAP 8 with Earth Power if it switches in on Draco Meteor at full health, including SR damage and factoring in leftovers recovery. Naive-tran gets 43% max from +nature, 252 SpA Draco Meteor and 30% max from T-Bolt afterwards, hitting back with EP at 59% min damage, a 2HKO if CAP 8 stays in to do 79% max damage (this example assumes a 188 HP/252 SpA/68 SpD spread for CAP 8 and standard Scarftran). So, I'd say Heatran would be a pretty reliable counter if used correctly. However, if Heatran predicts wrong and switches into T-Bolt CAP 8 wins. And, of course, non-Scarfed Heatran lose one-on-one (given the same EVs).

And I agree that this guy should have access to fire, water, and grass moves. It is a dragon, after all, and some of the appeal of dragons is their naturally diverse movepools that often carry moves of the types they resist (fire, water, grass, and electric).

Hippowdon is in touchy territory because, besides being slower, it has essentially the same stats as CAP 8 (switch Atk and SpA, of course) and advantageous typing. However, the hippo is attacking CAP 8's stronger defense while CAP's hitting its weaker special side. So, I wouldn't really consider it terribly threatening.

I don't know, though. I think DK's list is pretty comprehensive.

Cool Beans.

[Hegna]

Originally Posted by Fat dorkknight23

I don't understand why that is. Magnet Rise might give the abilities more room to use its abilities, helping it to ignore ground moves.

If almost every set ran Magnet Rise, then it will get levitate on the first turn (or very quickly upon being sent out). If everyone's CAP8 just ends up using levitate as its ability, the goal of having it use a neglected ability wouldn't be fulfilled as levitate is far from being neglected in competitive battling.

[aXl]

From what I read, it gives a ground type immunity. If I am correct about this, having never used MR personally, then it would still have its original ability. And, as someone stated previously, not every person will use MR to begin with, and instead use another move to fill the slot.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Hegna

If almost every set ran Magnet Rise, then it will get levitate on the first turn (or very quickly upon being sent out). If everyone's CAP8 just ends up using levitate as its ability, the goal of having it use a neglected ability wouldn't be fulfilled as levitate is far from being neglected in competitive battling.

Magnet Rise doesn't nullify your existing ability, it just gives you Ground immunity for 5 turns at the cost of a moveslot, and the need to set it up again once it expires or you switch out. It's not even remotely close to using Levitate as the ability.

[Veedrock]

Magnet Rise does not change your ability.

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Now all these checks and counters only take into consideration Electric and Dragon attack moves. Surf/Hydro Pump eliminate a significant portion of the Ground type counters and Tyranitar to an extent, whereas Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Overheat eliminate Steelix and Regice specifically.

Water attacks also take out Steelix, so Fire attacks only hinder Regice. On the Water/Fire despute, I'm for fire moves. Ground types already have issues in the metagame while steels generally do not. Latias does the Special Dragon/Water thing, while most others pull mixed dragon/fire, so it's up in the air.

Claydol can be a check. 252/0 takes 60.19% - 70.68% from Modest max Draco Meteor (that's less than Swampert takes) while striking back with STAB Earth Power. Without being overly specific I can't find anything else that hasn't been mentioned.

[Cartoons!]

Are we also taking into consideration existing CAP Pokemon?

Syclant fits comfortably into the revenge kill category and Fidgit can switch into a Thunderbolt and Encore.

[petrie911]

Revenankh should be able to set up on CaP8. Even with max spatk and modest, it barely manages the 3HKO with Tbolt, and even then only with SR and drawing max damage all 3 times. In fact, it needs ~340 sp atk (Modest and 200 sp atk EVs) to ensure that it gets a 4HKO. A 252 Modest Draco Meteor does 55% maximum to Revenankh, which really isn't all that great, considering you're nearly forced to switch out at -2 sp atk. Plus, if you're running that much Sp Atk, you're necessarily losing a lot of bulk.

Meanwhile, Hammer Arm is doing a lot of damage. Admittedly, Rev needs +4 atk to 2HKO 252HP/252Df versions of this pokemon, but 252/0 versions easily get 2HKO'd at +3. And with Rev's staying power against this guy, getting those boosts will not be hard. Paralysis from Static or Twave is obviously not a problem with Shedrest, and Rev has no secondary effects for Shield Dust to block.

LO Strategem will 2HKO all versions of this pokemon with Earth Power. The only exception is Max/Max+, which can survive provided Stratagem draws low damage twice.

[Joatmon]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Max SA Modest unboosted attacks vs 252 HP/ 0 SDef Celebi:

Draco Meteor: 52-67%
Dragon Pulse: 34-40%
Thunderbolt: 17-21%
Flamethrower: 48-56%
Overheat: 70-83%

Celebi's problem is that it tends to run physically defensive sets with little to no speed. CAP6 needs 164 Speed EVs to outrun 0 Spe Celebi. That's a bit of an investment but not a total one. Flamethrower is a 2HKO with SR, and short of hitting minimum damage twice Overheat will always 2HKO.

Hm... Overheat is a bit scary I must admit, but truth be told I must have figured celebi would have taken less as I am used to running SpDef heavy sets (anything else on Cap in my honest opinion is moot, but thats beside the point). On the subject of speed I always ran at least some, or used a timid nature at the very least.

It should be noted that we shouldn't expect standard spreads now to be standard during CAP8's presence. I mentioned EQ SpDef CB Tyranitar, but I am probably one of few people who runs (or rather ran) SpDef CBTar, let alone one with Earthquake. I can see a somewhat specialized celebi performing rather well, being able to outspeed most of CAP8 sets which don't want to lose survivability in exchange for the power to 2hko celebi, and while celebi can still run Speed and SpDef, and even some SpAtk to 2hko with Earth power.

[Derek(PUK)]

If this guy got fire blast and surf, what would counter it?