|May 23rd, 2009, 1:12:38 AM||#1|
Join Date: Apr 2009
Team Double Dragon (OU RMT)
So I took a small break from battling seriously and kind of just messed around for fun but now I've got quite a strong team that I've evolved to handle many strong threats rather handedly.
Team at a glance:
@ Lum Berry
IVs: 19 Spe
EVs: 252 HP/ 160 Atk/ 96 SpD
Comment: One of THE most annoying pokemon I've ever faced. He's a lot to handle for any single pokemon due to the rarity of super effective moves, his general bulk and annoying move set. I either Encore a fast Rocks, forcing a switch or I Sub on a status move blocked by Lum Berry and bring some pain. If they are slower, I Sub as they put up Rocks and Encore. Almost every battle, I usually end up with a sub while they end up with multiple hurt pokemon, sometimes confused. I've made so many people just quit with this set it's not funny and Machamp can even go 6-0 if the opponent is a frail offensive team unable to easily handle Machamp.
@ Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 Spe/ 252 SpA
Comment: The first dragon and THE most important check on my team. Latias built this way can out speed a DDmence or a Rain Dance Kingdra as well as many Agility users and other Scarfers, including Gengar who tends to not go full speed or has HP Fire. This is critical as Flygon needs dragons out of his way to sweep. I've found I am not liking Trick that much since after I Trick I am a bit open but the ability to cripple a variety of walls is imperative. Latias serves a narrowly defined but ultimately important role. She's also naturally bulky enough to be a decent switch in to a variety of special attacks but that is not the role here.
IVed for HP Fighting
EVs: 64 HP/ 212 Spe/ 232 SpA
Comment: This set is very underused I find. Rotom-H is great at causing switches due to the threat of a Scarfer and Overheat which means Subs are plentiful. Rotom's very bulky and very strong, especially after a boost or two. This is a handy stall breaker thanks to type coverage and status protection but also a strong switch in thanks to his immunities. I actually used to have a CM Latias and Scarfed Rotom but I am very happy with the results after switching roles (and getting 6-0ed by DDmence).
@ Choice Band
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Comment: Ok, so Weavile is out a Scizor is in to serve the revenge killer, scout, end game sweeper role. About equally powerful to Weavile but a bit slower, therefore reliant on Bullet Punch where Weavile could Ice Punch for some extra jam. However, the added bulk, removal of SR weakness, extra poison resist and the ability to not fear paralysis make him a strong option. He's the most used pokemon in OU for a reason so now he's on my team.
EVs: 252 HP/ 64 Atk/ 176 Def/ 16 Spe
Comment: I love Skarmory's ability to be a phazer and Rocker at the same time as I like to carry both. His defense is also appreciated as no one else can take hits like this guy can, especially on this team. I find I use Brave Bird a lot since it's damage is often under estimated (particularly against Gyarados for 30% + damage after Intimidate). An integral part of my team who probably sees the most play time overall.
@ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk/ 216 Spe/ 40 SpA
Comment: I love this guy! The other dragon comes with fantastic typing and immunities with a move pool boasting unresisted coverage and underestimated power. With Rocks up, Fire Blast OHKOs Skarmory switching in on my Earthquakes thinking I am scarfed. Hasty nature is chosen to survive late game physical sweeper attacks like un-boosted Close Combats. Alternatively, he can clear out the things stopping Weavile from plowing through with Ice Punch, namely Steel and Ice types who, in turn, clears out Flying types and fast dragons. Basically, anything without an Ice attack who isn't faster will be taking big time damage from this guy.
Overall: This team can handle the games biggest threats with relative ease while preserving the final game offense long enough to break through the remains. Using a lot of direct counters and revenge killing means I can mis-predict and be ok. More often than not, I'll bring my opponent into kill range of Weavile or Flygon and just run them through. This means I'll sacrifice multiple pokemon to kill big counters to my final push. However, since the main theme here is unexpected power, I can catch many opponents off guard and since I force a lot of switches, I can alter my strategy as the game unfolds. Rotom and Machamp are my back up offense and both can really hurt a lot of things. I force my opponent to require varied counters since if they don't have the right counter at the right time, I'll hit them for big damage.
EDIT: Retired Members:
Aerodactyl: As a lead, Machamp can handle with ease taking minimal damage in return. Ideally I Encore a turn 1 Rocks, risking a Taunt.
Alakazam: Weavile can come in on Psychic and destroy, Latias can out speed and OHKO.
Azelf: As a lead, it's tricky, either I get nuked by Psychic or I risk an Encore on the Rocks or I confuse with Dynamicpunch and hope for some hax.
Blissey: If Machamp's kicking around, he's an ideal counter. Flygon can come in if it's weakened, Weavile too and Latias can Trick her Scarf. Not beaten easily, but my team can focus down and take her out.
Breloom: Weavile does well depending on the situation. Machamp can absorb a sleep and mess him up. Rotom can take the Punches and Sub to stop Leech Seed but Seed Bomb can be a problem.
Bronzong: Flygon does well. Machamp can mess him up with Dynamic Punch and Encore his non-threatening moves. Rotom can set up like a champ and take him down.
Celebi: Weavile ideally but Flygon does ok in a pinch. Machamp can absorb a status move and Sub, letting him crack away with Stone Edge. Skarmory can do some big damage with Brave Bird but isn't a sure counter. Rotom outspeeds more defensive versions and Sub, letting him set up.
Cresselia: Weavile does well. Latias can Draco Meteor. Machamp can absorb status, Sub and Encore her non-threatening moves. Rotom can out speed and Sub, letting him set up.
Donphan: Weavile does decently but Latias' Surf and Rotom's Shadow Ball hurt most.
Dragonite: Weavile and Latias are strong checks but must watch for Bulkier builds. Flygon can take him late game if he's softened up and un-boosted. Machamp can Stone Edge too but I doubt he'll be around by that time.
Dugtrio: No real counters but most of my team can fly/float so he's not threatening.
Dusknoir: Weavile wrecks him. Rotom can do well if he's softened. He's not a huge threat since he's so slow and I have a lot of Subs to block status and super effective attacks.
Electivire: Only Latias and Rotom have Electric attacks and Latias will out speed even with a boost (yes, Scarfed but that's ok) and Rotom will usually be behind a Sub and can hurt with Shadow Ball. He's so rare that is he even a threat anymore?
Empoleon: Even if he's Agilitied, Latias outspeeds and Rotom can nail him from behind a Sub. Without a boost, Flygon smokes him and even Weavile can hit him hard. As a lead, Machamp shreds him.
Flygon: Weavile. Latias, even against the common Scarfers
Forretress: Flygon OHKOs. Machamp can do well with Dynamic Punch. Skarmory hits hard with Brave Bird and can out last thanks to Roost and even take Explosions. Rotom can use him as set up bait.
Gengar: Weavile easy. Latias can outspeed almost all Scarfers. Rotom from behind a Sub will win.
Gliscor: Weavile again. Latias can nail him with Surf or Draco Meteor. Rotom can take him since he resists both STABs and hits on the weaker defense. Skarmory is in a similar position but isn't really a counter.
Gyarados: He can only set up on Flygon effectively. Machamp nails him and can confuse him. Latias out speeds even after a DD or 2 and OHKOs. Skarmory does well since Gyarados will either try to Taunt, giving me a free attack or try to set up meaning he takes more damage (I am talking 30%+ which is enough). Rotom out speeds before a DD is usually protected, is not affected by Intimidate and wins. Weavile can hit hard with Ice Punch too.
Heatran: I dislike him A LOT. Scarf versions without HP Ice or Dragon Pulse (lol, aka none) lose to Latias. If he's a Sub version, I am in big trouble. My only hope is to either chip away or drop his Sub and go for a KO with Latias or, without a Scarf, Flygon. Late game, I can feel a switch and KO him.
Heracross: Skarmory for sure. Latias can finish a Salac booster. Flygon can do well against weakened versions. Rotom resisted both STAB and can set up. Even Weavile can use Ice Punch to do BIG damage.
Hippowdon: Usually a lead which Machamp is faster than. I easily escape with a Sub up and ready to make pain. Later in a match, without Ice Fang, Latias has Surf and Flygon can hurt. Rotom has strong Shadow Ball and Weavile can knock him with Ice Punch.
Infernape: An interesting speciman. LeadApes usually draw even with Machamp and get up the Rocks. Without HP Ice, Latias runs him over and Flygon can OHKO taking most Close Combats, if unboosted. When weakened and without Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, Weavile can KO. If Scarfed, Rotom can come in on Close Combat and set up. He's usually going to dent any team but I can counter any set with ease, once revealed.
Jirachi: Tricky bugger like Infernape above as he can run many sets. The TrickLead set is hard to stop but I guess Scarfed Dynamicpunches can be useful to outspeed Choice Band Scizors and the like. It could also risk a switch to Latias to take the Scarf but then Jirachi could Rocks instead so it's a gamble. As a sweeper, Rotom can usually match CM boosts with Charge Beam boosts but that's a winning match up. If I break it's Sub, Flygon can out speed and probably KO with Earthquake. Outside of that, Jirachi is a tough nut to crack but not the biggest threat around due to lack of power off the bat.
Jolteon: If he's Spec'd, I can lock him into a move and mess him up with some on else. Electric attacks to Flygon, Shadow Ball goes to Weavile or Skarmory, HP Ice goes to Weavile or possibly Skarmory. Otherwise he lacks the power to hurt me much and is outsped by Latias and Ice Shard.
Kingdra: A powerful threat but I'm set to handle it. The Rain Dancers are KO'd by Latias. Double Dancers face a similar fate since they won't get both boosts in without me bringing Latias (yes, a risk). If un-boosted, Flygon can nail him and either KO or set him into Weavile range. A strong wall-breaker but my team can usually minimize the damage.
Latias: Another movepool dependent foe. Generally Latias at least Speed ties with any opponent and can KO with Draco Meteor. Weavile can KO with Ice Punch. Packs a lot of power with Specs so caution is needed.
Lucario: Leads are too rare and still destroyed. In general, I can out speed Adamant varieties with Rotom and bring some pain. I can take a hit and cripple with Flygon. I can lure a Close Combat on Skarmory, letting Weavile finish with Ice Shard. As far as late game sweepers go, I handle this one well.
Machamp: As a lead, we tie. But I haven't ran into many other than the ones who inspired me to use one too. I'm thinking of adding more speed to Machamp as leadZongs are probably rarer. As a RestTalker, I can wear it down quickly as it sleeps and finish him eventually, or Trick my Scarf onto him, rendering him useless.
Magnezone: Only Skarmory fears him totally. Without HP Ice and/or a Scarf, Flygon wins, Machamp too. Weavile can revenge kill with Brick Break and Latias can hit with Surf for solid damage.
Mamoswine: Let's assume they all pack Ice Shard and Earthquake. Machamp can take his hits and smoke him with DP. Weavile can either wreck him with Brick Break or Ice Punch if he's in my way on a sweep. Rotom can do ok too since he can hit super effectively and is immune to EQ.
Metagross: As a lead, Machamp can Encore Stealth Rock or any of his attacks and bring in Skarmory or possibly Rotom to set up. I can also DP and hope to kill right off the bat or set up with some confusion.
Ninjask: If he's a lead, I Encore for hilarious results. Otherwise, I bring in Skarmory and Whirlwind as he BPs for hilarious results. He's not much of a threat.
Porygon-Z: With a Scarf, Rotom makes a safe switch in, as does Skarmory. Latias can take most hits to lock him in and also outspeeds for some pain. Weavile can Ice Shard or murder non-Scarfed versions, so can Flygon. Machamp can hopefully survive if he has lots of health and flat out run him over.
Rhyperior: I have many tools to kill him. Surf, Ice Punch, EQ, DP (bonus for confusion), HP Fighting or just take his blows and WW with Skarmory, racking up SR damage and hoping for a favourable match up later. He's strong but not unstoppable, pretty rare too.
Rotom-A: Let's assume they are all Scarfed or RestTalkers. If Scarfed, Flygon or possibly Weavile can come in and hurt him. Latias also outspeeds and hurts a lot. As a RestTalker, my Rotom will usually out speed and hurt a bunch but now my whole team does too, save Machamp and Skarmory so he's not too threatening. Enemy sweep sets are rare at best but still manageable.
Salamence: Weavile and Latias counter all but Yache Berry versions and sets that are DDed more than once. He'll likely get a kill but that's a fair trade for such a monster. If he's not max speed and not DDed, then Flygon comes in as a threat too.
Scizor: Flygon can OHKO, Skarmory can take his attacks and hit hard with Brave Bird. Rotom resists his STAB and can set up on Choice Banders who will likely switch. Again, for such a powerful foe, I handle it well. If weakened, Weavile can finish him.
Skarmory: Flygon is an amazing counter since he likes to come in on EQ only to get toasted by Fire Blast. Rotom and Latias can hit quite hard. Machamp can DP for fun times and Encore his Roosts and hit harder with DP. Not a huge deal.
Smeargle: Lead version? Lum Berry stops the speed Spore and Subs for fun times. Otherwise, what's he gonna do?
Snorlax: Machamp, Skarmory, Rotom and Weavile do great against Rest Talkers as it will never have both Crunch and Fire Punch and if it's going Mono-Normal, he's got no hope.
Starmie: Weavile, Latias, Subbed Rotom all do well.
Suicune: Rotom can set up. Skarmory can Whirlwind it's boosts and rack up some SR damage. Machamp can confuse and hurt. Weavile can hit fairly hard and if Suicune is without Ice Beam, Latias and Flygon can hurt a lot but less so for Flygon due to Surf neutrality.
Swampert: It's true, I lack a grass move for this beast but I have many powerful neutral hits to KO. CB Ice Punch hurts. Draco Meteor hurts. Dynamicpunch hurts. Shadow Ball hurts, especially with a Sub or a Charge Beam boost. EQ can hurt. Even Skarmory can take his abuse and hit back with Brave Bird.
Tentacruel: Rotom does well. Latias can do well. Flygon can hit hard hard. Even resisted Ice Punches can hurt due to sheer power, same with Machamp's DPs.
Togekiss: Weavile, Rotom, possibly Latias. Finished by Flygon well. Skarmory can hit hard and is ok with Paralysis. Even Machamp, with a Sub up, can KO.
Tyranitar: He's fun. Machamp firstly. Rotom secondly and unexpectedly. Flygon thirdly. Weavile on the revenge kill. Skarmory can take most punishment and hit well with Brave Bird.
Vaporeon: Rotom, possibly Latias. Weavile can hit hard, Flygon and Machamp too. He's not strong enough to beat me or stop me setting up and not quite bulky enough to take my powerful neutral attacks forever.
Weavile: Skarmory and Machamp mostly. Weavile possibly. Pretty rare though.
Zapdos: Machamp can do well, even against PP Stall attempts thanks to Encore. Latias can hit hard, so can Weavile. Flygon can finish him late game. I'll usually throw a lot at him to finish him ASAP since he's one of Flygon's biggest doorstops.
I look forward to comments and advice.
Last edited by familyguyman; May 23rd, 2009 at 11:14:25 PM.
|May 23rd, 2009, 4:07:55 AM||#2|
Suspect process: users edition
Join Date: Aug 2007
First of all, let me say that you have a quite original team: Machamp lead, sub-Rotom, life orb Flygon. I like it.
The only pokemon that I absolutely recommend you to change is Weavile, Scizor does almost everything Weavile does but better: it isn't weak to SR, it's a lot more bulky and, above all, is able to afford to switch into Latias to trap and kill her. So my suggestion is to replace Weavile with a CB Scizor:
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Like Weavile, Scizor can also revenge kill DD Dragons when they're at 60% or so of their health. It's also an effective late game sweeper, while Weavile will rerely sweep with all the Scizor and Metagross around.
On Flygon I would use a naive nature: hasty is -Def and Flygon has an useful resistance to rock which allows it to switch into TTar's stone edges (especially considering that you have roost).
I see that you could have problems with Lucario. Adamant versions are outsped by Rotom but note that without any boost hp fighting does 66.90% on averege to Lucario which means that it might survive and kill Rotom with crunch; while jolly variants are really troublesome.
Also, I noticed that you rely on your Latias to counter and revenge kill a lot of threats (notably Heatran and Infernape), but without recover she will be soon weakened enough to be finished off by one of them.
If I were you, I would probably invert Latias and Rotom roles on the team, making Rotom a choice scarfer and Latias a standard calm-minder. So my suggestion is:
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
-trick / W-o-W
Overheat OHKOs Lucario and you'll be sure to outspeed even jolly variants (obviously); a timid nature ensures that you'll outspeed jolly Gyarados even after a DD; shadow ball allows you to revenge kill other Rotom and non-scarf Gengar (should you need that); trick if you want to cripple special walls and other slow support pokemons or W-o-W mainly for TTar and other physical attackers which may come in on a resisted attack.
EVs: 148 HP / 108 SpA / 252 Spe
This pokemon will be an effective answer to both Infernape and Heatran and recover will guarantee plenty of switch ins.
Obviously, since both of these pokemons are crucial to your team, I really recommend you to beware of TTar.
Just some suggestions.
|May 23rd, 2009, 2:40:09 PM||#3|
Join Date: Apr 2009
The Flygon nature I changed, I thought I had the -SpD one. Good call.
As for Latias and Rotom, I had them swapped before and got decimated by Salamence, Kingdra and Gyarados while ScarfTran was messing me up still with Dragon Pulse. This inspired the original change up. I'll try Scizor first and if I feel that changes my team such that the role reversal would work, I'll give it a try.
|May 23rd, 2009, 5:09:01 PM||#4|
Join Date: May 2009
I believe you said Smeargle was no big deal :P
He can leave a GIGANTIC ( And I mean.. GIGANTIC ) Dent in Machamp :P
I run a Smeargle lead on occasion just to piss people off ;)
If I predict that the lead is running a Lum Berry, I simply Substitute first turn ( As general leads Stealth Rock first turn. This also messes with Azelfs Explosion), Endure 2nd turn if I think a hit is coming. ( If not I just Spore to waste the Lum Berry. ) After that, Endeavor and your Machamp is in a world of pain >< ( Salac boost helps here too )
Be careful with these little buggers. If you underestimate them they might come up and slap you :P
Not much else I can say, as I am a die heart Smeargle fan :P But your team is very solid! :D
|May 23rd, 2009, 6:15:09 PM||#5|
Join Date: Jun 2008
THE BIG APPLE
I would try Scizor first, Weavile just isn't a useful pokemon in this metagame. He does nothing against stall and actually just lets stall setup on you. Scizor also does minimal damage to stall (CB Pursuit on a Rotom is about all it *might* be useful for), but you can spam U-Turn to create advantageous situations to keep stall on its heels.
The Life Orb Gyarados really does 6-0 this team after a Dragon Dance. With the addition of Scizor you maintain a useful Dragon resistance and revenge check with CB Bullet Punch to DDMence. Skarmory seems to be the weak link on the team. Your team leans offensive, and Skarmory seems to be just thrown in there. He does help provide residual damage with the spikes for your team (since you lack Stealth Rock), and he has the ability to haze for you, but I just don't see his usefulness on a team meant to mainatain an offensive advantage. He just seems to allow a MixMence a free swap to start picking off your team. Something that might maintain a more offensive appraoch and give you a Heatran swap in could be this:
120 HP/252 Speed/136 SpA
He helps you against Gyarados, runs faster than Lucario and can take out a -1 Luke or a Luke that has taken damage (or at least pound him with a Surf as your faster), and is just an overall solid pokemon on the defensive and offensive side. I would give it a playtest as he seems to fit your style really well if you like SubRotom and SubMachamp. He sets up similarly through CM and can be really tough on offensive teams.
|May 23rd, 2009, 6:23:27 PM||#6|
Join Date: Mar 2008
I'd definately agree with the other rates that you should use Scizor over Weavile. Scizor is much more durable with better defenses, resistences and no Stealth Rock weakness, and has access to U-turn, which is incredibly useful for this kind of team, as well as a more powerful priority move for almost everything. Scizor also gives you an excellent method of dealing with every Latias set other than defensive CM with HP Fire.
I don't think Gyarados is a huge threat to this team like Gaborik says, Latias makes pretty much the perfect revenge killer for Gyara.
You may want to consider running Spikes on Skarmory, although it largely comes down to preference as to which is better. If you can get 2-3 layers down reliably, then Spikes is going to help you break teams a lot quicker than SR (and if you can manage to stop a stall team from spinning them away, 3 layers of spikes makes life against stall much, much easier), whereas SR helps you against the flying types/levitators, in particular Gyarados and Salamence.
Other than that, this is a pretty well made team.
|May 23rd, 2009, 11:03:04 PM||#7|
Join Date: Apr 2009
Secondly, Gyarados is handled by Latias even after 2 DDs unless it's got +speed nature. Rotom can also do well thanks to STAB, Bulk, out speeding before the DD, etc. He's not a huge threat but that's not to say I am opposed to more checks. Suicune is great idea, if I ran it over Skarmory, I'd have to at least have Roar because I refuse to be without a Phazer, it's too useful. I would also have to go without Rocks too which is something I might not be so good with. Perhaps Swampert with Waterfall, Earthquake, Roar and Stealth Rocks would do? He would be more vulnerable to Gyarados but would be a good check against Heatran. What do you guys think?
I'll edit the first post with Scizor over Weavile