Salamander's Pit - Salamence-centered team.

Silent Storm · Jul 3rd, 2009, 4:17:31 PM

____________________________________

Change-Log

The team has received a massive overhaul.
Changed the spread for Latias and am currently testing Thunderbolt.
Changed the spread for Bulky Mence.

____________________________________

Introduction

Gonna be honest, I didn't plan on revisiting this team cause it honestly flopped for me. Vashta once said that this team was special hyper offence gone wrong among others things. The team itself is pretty generic, considering my attempts at being innovative. The team works in dealing with most of the threats in the current game and Bulky Mence imo is better suited for this team. If all else fails I still have Latias to pick apart everything once Blissey dies, though the amount of special attacker is annoying for me as I like having a balance. If I were to change one member it would be Latias, not because its "cheap" or "gay" or "spammy" but its because I have spammed her on almost all my teams and its getting quite annoying, also not sure about cune either. Right now this is my main team as it has the most win records to date (been playing with it the most lol) and has a lot of my favs in it (I have a lot of favs :¬/).

Main issues I have encountered:

Once Jirachi is gone the team is rather slow, but I guess being bulky is a good trade off.
The big three rip this team to shreads once Jirachi is gone.
Not liking Latias on this team too much, despite it being good I have spammed it to death. =/
Too much special attackers, and Suicune takes too long to set up. =/

Main highlights of the team:

The team has a lot of resistances, does not care about Stealth Rock.
This team consists of various favourites of mine while trying to use not so common sets.
The team owns now. =)

Other notes (Misc):

Salamence being bulky helps deal with stall better (as the old set died too fast).
Every single player on this team does not mind toxic spikes, only Suicune minds but it can rest it off, huge plus against stall teams
So far the core is three steels and two dragons, as I already have a triple dragon team I am considering getting rid of Latias or something else and keeping the main core three steels and one dragon.

In-Depth Look

Mamoswine @ Focus Sash
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 6 HP | 252 Atk | 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)

Earthquake
Endeavor
Ice Shard
Stealth Rock

This lead Mamoswine is mainly here for me to score some kills against dragon types but he does more than that for the team. I Stealth Rock as quickly as possible because of Mamoswine's ability to force switches, should I get lucky enough for my opponent to switch out I switch Mamoswine out and save him for later. For the EVs max attack and speed was the most logical choice here as Mamoswine is really a defensive Pokemon, plus I would want as much speed as possible to hit key Pokemon. Ice Shard + Endeavor is the key of this set, this combo at times has allowed me to take out threats like Scizor and friends providing Sash has not already been broken, Endeavor used in conjunction Ice Shard ensures I gain a free kill which can be game breaking. This offensive team relies sorely on Stealth Rock for some key KOs as well as check Salamence and Gyarados, though this cannot stop other teams from setting up rocks, Mamoswine's overall high attack and ability to set up Stealth Rock 99% of the time made him a worthy addition to the team.

---

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 160 HP | 120 SAtk | 228 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)

Surf
Calm Mind
Hidden Power [Electric]
Ice Beam

Crocune, the pokemon that was in my old build has made his return to my team as being the bulky water to compliment my core and handle Blissey. To be honest, I would prefer it if something else be here but I just prefer Crocune as its has been very successful for me and is a pain to get rid of once Vaporeon is outta the way. I had Rotom-h over this but the forum I normally frequent banned him for some insane reason, so I sometimes interchange them. Standard offensive cune was also used as it provided me with more coverage but sr among other thins made me go cro. Me and Skynet have been experimenting with other cune sets as Crocune is just too annoying to use. on Skynet's version of team he has been using offensive Suicune over Crocune. In my opinion, I believe this offensive cune with leftovers is more suited for the team than Crocune. As I mentioned before, despite being immune to status I hate setting with crocune, its tedious and the coverage is horrible. The only problem I would have with the switch to this set is the fact that toxic spikes dicks him over, but the trade off imo is worth it, as I am hitting things I normally wouldn't be able to hit with Crocune.

---

Latias @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP | 252 SAtk | 252 Spe
Nature: Timid (+SAtk, -Atk)

Grass Knot
Recover
Hidden Power [Fire]
Dragon Pulse | Draco Meteor

Bait Latias goes a long way in ensuring that the things though would most likely beat Salamence are eliminated so he can have a clean, sweep. Bait Latias also has the luxury of bluffing choice scarf which in turn gets me more surprise kills. Latias forms the first part of the double dragon core attempting to as many things as possible so my other members can exploit the holes she creates. She also acts as my check to Infernape and Heatran who left to do as they please, can defeat my team.

---

Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 168 HP | 176 Atk | 4 Spe | 160 SDef
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)

Bullet Punch
Pursuit
U-Turn
Superpower

---

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 214 HP | 40 Atk | 176 Def | 80 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SAtk)

Dragon Claw
Roost
Earthquake
Dragon Dance

Salamence acts as the team's centerpiece, the one that usually ends the game once everything hinders a sweep has been weakened or killed off by either Latias or Magnezone. When making the team, I went through several salamence sets, trying to find out which set best fit this team. So far, the sets that has been used have been Mixed Dancer, MixMence (New and Classic), DD Mence with Outrage, DD Mence with Dragon Claw and Bulky Mence. In the end I settled for bulky mence as it gave me a good check to fighting types plus sandstream, life orb and stealth rock will be wearing me down thus preventing a potential sweep.

---

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 6 HP | 252 Atk | 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly (+Atk, -SAtk)

Ice Punch
Iron Head
Fire Punch / Trick
Thunderpunch

Choice Scarf Jirachi has been placed over Scizor as being the pokemon to handle dragons as well as Gyarados. I orginally had CB Scizor in this spot for scouting and handling Salamence but CS Rachi just did the job better than cor at what I want to accomplish. While Zen Headbutt could be enough for Blissey and co I have decided to add Trick to the set to further screw up stuff that could potentially wall me. Jirachi acts as my fail safe Pokemon against the big three, Tyranitar, Salamence & Gyarados as all three can rip me to shreads if I don't have rachi. Rachi, like Heatran, has a nice amount of resists and immunity to toxic spikes meaning he also won't be leaving any time soon.

Considering

Dormin · Jul 3rd, 2009, 4:23:18 PM

Hey.

I took a look at it, and at first glance I can see a few easy changes you can make. First off, your threat list pretty much shows that anything that can outspeed your team is a problem. To fix stuff like this, I suggest a Scarf Jirachi lead. With trick, you can screw over stuff like Suicune and if you put Fire Punch over U-turn then you can have an effective counter to Lucario even if you trick away the scarf. Also helps against Empoleon.

With this change, I would suggest that you mess with Heatran. Instead of a scarf, why not try a SubToxic Heatran or a Sub+3 attack Heatran (Fire Blast, Earth Power, HP Grass, etc.). Both of these sets help wear down bulky water types that might prevent Salamence from sweeping late game. Or, you could put a Magnezone over Heatran to eliminate Scizor, who could also end your Salamence's sweep. This would also pave the way for a Latias sweep as well.

On Celebi, I think you could do a lot more with that Earth Power moveslot. I suggest that you use either HP Fire or U-turn. With HP Fire, you can effectively lure in and eliminate Scizor (if you keep Heatran, which I suggest). However, a clean OHKO requires some SpAtk investment. For now I would suggest an EV spread of 252 HP, 220 Def, and 36 Spe with a Bold nature, and try to weaken Scizor first. With U-turn, you can scout the switch and potentially trap Scizor (with Magnezone) or get a free turn on a Heatran switch in to spin away rocks with Starmie.

Speaking of Starmie, I would test Expert Belt over Leftovers. With Expert Belt you will deal a hell of a lot more damage to Tyranitar with Hydro Pump, and give your Thunderbolt a lot more bite. Run some calculations.

Looks good!

Silent Storm · Jul 3rd, 2009, 10:44:35 PM

Thanks for the quick response I will be sure to try these new ideas out, bit iffy about the lead Jirachi though.

Yeah do believe Earth Power is not needed and I also see the benefits of using U-Turn (scouting is nice) but I generally beleive HP Fire is btter due to his ability to hit Scizor who takes neutral damage from EP, I will replace Earth Power.

Expert Belt on Starmie also has its merits but I feel Lefties is better suited for the spread, I guess I am gonna have to spend a day battling even harder while testing your suggestions.

I also hate Magnezone, don't know why so he is out of the question, I have foundLO Heatran to be decent but have never tried Substitue on him.

LuistheNinja · Jul 3rd, 2009, 11:19:35 PM

I like the fact that your descriptions are nice, narrative, explicit and easy to understand ^_^ I'm very glad atleast someone does that on the forums (not saying no one does but alot of people dont).

Anyways, moving to the team I've seen alot of them focusing on Salamence and I don't blame anyone for using it since its a wonderful pokemon. However, I think you have fulfilled a good team sicne you cover most of DD Mence's threats most notably Ice Shard users (Mamoswine, Weavile, Donphan).

The team is so well structured in my opinion that there are few changes that I suggest and are minor. First of all, I find Recover as a "filler" in your Latias moveset, not sure if you use it that much but I would personally change it for Grass Knot which can handle Swampert easily and not only him but Tyranitar (im doubting a little due to Thunderbolt's presence in the team)

While looking through your threat list I noticed you highlited Suicune and even tho I love it Suicune really is a pin in the ass. To solve this and other problems I recommend a CS Magnezone I think your team benefits from it.

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpA/ 252Spd
Nature: Timid
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Discharge/Explotion
It still covers what Heatran's main purpose was: getting Steel types out of Salamence's way. And I think that Magnezone does a better job due to the Magnet Pull abiltiy. The moveset seems to suit nice since it deals with things like Suicune while keeping the double dragon synergy that you stated since the begining and it also becomes a Scizor counter and with enough prediction it can handle Breloom.

Hope this helps!

Oh! before I forget...if you do run the Magnezone I do not recommend Explotion since having 2 pokemons with Explotion is NEVER a good idea I just mentioned it because I had nothing to fill the last slot.

Nature: Timid

AfroThunderRule · Jul 4th, 2009, 2:45:26 AM

Not much of a team rater but why does your Celebi have only 484 EVs?

Also, very weak to Ice, bug and Ghost/Dark. I also see Scizor to be a big problem with your team since your Celebi doesn't have HP Fire on it and doesn't mind the T-Waves from Celebi. And, having a Rapid Spinner in your team isn't a necessary. Sure 25% of your health is taking off but Salamence doesn't mind that all too much and Starmie is really hurting your team IMO which the common weakness it shares with Latias/Celebi with its type Phychic.

Silent Storm · Jul 4th, 2009, 8:08:08 AM

@LuistheNinja - Thanks for the compliments, yeah it took me a while to construct this whole RMT lol.

Hmm seeing as two people have suggested Magnezone over Heatran I guess I should try him out, he does combo well with Salamence offensively and can take care of steel types better, I will try it out and report back once I am done.

Recover is on Latias so she can survive for a very long time, there have been moments where Recover has saved my ass which enabled Laias to kill
a specific Pokemon I needed to kill, if anything I will replace Thunderbolt with Grass Knot as the only reason Thunderbolt was included was for Gyarados to have one less thing to set up on.

@ AfroThunderRule - The EVs are from the analysis, probably a mistake on their part but I am changing it soon so no worries there. Yeah Scizor can be a problem but Heatran handles him to an extent and I had HP Fire on Celebi but got rid of it for Earth Power as I was trying new things, I miss HP Fire so I am going to switch back indefinably.

Edit - I have tested Magnezone in some battles on different ladders, yeah he seems to solve some of the problems I have been having, going to type up a new description for him now.

I would also like to try Heatran as a lead, as it stands I have three Fire weak Pokemon, with Heatran as my lead I can still have fire immunity plus being able to do the the things Metagross does (excluding priority).

iKitsune · Jul 8th, 2009, 8:47:35 PM

Sorry I've taken ages to get back to you on this one and thanks for the PM.

First off i would like to say congratulations on a beautifully presented RMT, I'm beginning to look forward to your teams every once in a while.

This team although appearing straightforward and standard in its goals is actually trying to promote a sweep of something that will be extremely difficult to pull off. Although Salamence is undeniably threatening, it is actually, i think you will find rather frail and less succesful then one might think its offensive prowess may imply. Im not suggesting you change the whole premise of the team but i am suggesting that this Salamence is probably not best suited as the focus of the team. I would prefer to see this salamence variant on a more offensive team or perhaps a mixmence to perform hit and run assaults. Forgive me if i'm wrong about Salamence's success.

I would like you to consider changing Salamence to a physically bulky variant, lets face it if someone spams physical fighting moves against this team from a random CBer like Hera or Ape or worse Machamp rears its ugly head you are in a lot of trouble. Salamence, taking advantage of its above average defenses and intimidate makes an excellent response to these threats.The only slight downside to this change is that you lose out against Skarmory with shed shell but other than that you should be fine.

This is the set:

Salamence@ Leftovers
Jolly
252hp/180def/76spe

DD
Roost
Dragon Claw
EQ

This set provides mence with the longevity it needs to sweep (Scizor does a hell of a lot less and of course you can always roost off the damage) as well as making it a superb switch in to fighting types (which this team needs, desperately). Crucially this set does not lock you into outrage so you dont get confused and picked off in the helpless state. Good Luke check although you dont really need one.

With this change you can also change Magnezone to a sub zone i think you will find that this set is far better suited to the metagame and is actually a dangerous offensive threat in comparison to Scarf variation that is often set up bait. I would definitely consider this change too.

Anyway good luck with the team not really much else i can think of.

Silent Storm · Jul 8th, 2009, 10:23:28 PM

Thanks for the rate.

Yeah for some time now I have been considering using a more defensive Salamence, at the time I felt the set I am currently using was better due to histype coverage, but now he is not really doing as well as before.

What I have also considered doing is going for a more physically specialized Salamence with Dragon Claw over Outrage and Roost, imo this would allow me to get rid of Starmie as I am not liking Starmie atm but then there is the issue of finding a new member as I am currently stuck with this team atm.

I have though considered Tentacruel over Starmie, he can rapid spin also plus he can knock off and use toxic spikes, but I am going to have to test that change.

On another nte Latias with Timid is performing better than expected.

animenagai · Jul 8th, 2009, 10:34:46 PM

Decent team, though there are some things in your descriptions that make me think twice.

First of all, why is out of the question to explode on a hippow lead? Hippow leads almost always mean that the opponent is either running stall or just isn't very good (hippow on a balanced team = yuck). If you can explode on the hippow (surprise him by exploding on the first turn), you just eliminated thier DDmence counter. Gross isn't gonna do too much against stall with rotom running around.

On the celebi set, I think you'll be much better off running the tinkerbell set (modest LO). It's all in the analysis. Leaf storm OHKO's flygon on the switch, which is pretty priceless on this team. I don't really see what you'll be missing out on with a switch like this, so I would change it ASAP.

Finally, I know you're running salamence, but you never really need a rapid spinner on an offensive team like this. You have enough resistances so mence doesn't need to come out till late game, so one SR isn't so bad. I wouldn't mind seeing a scarfed heatran or something like that in starmie's place, as starmie is pursuit weak and often gets wrecked against offence. If you do that, you can think about running a sub-rise maggy with HP fire instead to help you kill those steels better. If not, then I would personally give starmie HP fire > rapid spin to lure that scizor.

Silent Storm · Jul 8th, 2009, 10:57:25 PM

Haha funny thing the first draft of this team was using tinkerbell, but then I thought the team would benefit greatly from having a more defensive Celebi, it worked to an extent but yeah I am missing the extra power.

I have noticed though I have way too many special attackers for my liking, with Starmie gone I would probably be able to balance it this out with another water Pokemon, unfortunatly this is where I get stuck.

animenagai · Jul 8th, 2009, 11:10:19 PM

You can always run suicune over starmie. Crocune beats bliss one on one.

joshe · Jul 9th, 2009, 2:39:08 AM

This is a great team. I don't have much to say here except a few points and a second "conscience" on your team. I think a Crocune (as nagai just pointed out) would slot nicely over Starmie. Therefore you can change Celebi to a Tinkerbell, and go with all physical mence since you have over 3/4ths of the team that can take care of Skarmory (and to a lesser extent, brongzong, althought its not nearly as common as skarm). You could run roost over fire blast, along with an adamant (or jolly?) nature with 252 atk/4 def/252 spe. With roost you won't need rapid spin support, and Latias counters infernape anyway, making me think more and more that starmie is dead weight on this team. You could even put a lum berry on mence to help it get an extra Dragon Dance or to help save it from a ruined sweep.

Also with Crocune, you get to beat Blissey one on one (it'll take a while lol), possibly allowing latias to do a bit more damage to your opponents team than without a good way to beat blissey (Salamence or Metagross would have to take care of it, and metagross is more than likely dead, and you don't want to waste mence on beating blissey).

Sorry if this wasn't much help, although I hope I did a bit of thinking for you :DD

Good Luck with the team :)

Silent Storm · Jul 9th, 2009, 8:54:17 PM

Well after some wifi games and battles on other ladders, I have come to a decision that Starmie is the weak link here, I tried the defensive Salamence and imo, I prefer the raw power from adamant and max speed.

I am torn though, I have been giving LO Suicune a try and I like the coverage he has but Crocune has recovery and ofcourse the chance of beating Blissey one-on-one (considering my team consists mainly of special attackers, I don't know.

But yeah the changes are so far doing ok for me, especially tinkerbell, but I have also considered Scizor as a potential member of the team over Celebi.

Futility · Jul 10th, 2009, 1:37:08 AM

As you said, your Metagross lead can't kill off Ninjask, and with no priority moves on your team, Ninjask is going to pass at least Speed, if not attack, onto a sweeper and then it's simply gg for you. Since you also have the priority of making sure Stealth Rocks don't reach the field, since that's going to cause the most trouble for your Salamence, an Aerodactyl would probably serve as a better lead.

Aerodactyl @ Focus Sash
Nature: Jolly
EV's: 4 HP / 252 ATK / 252 Spe
Moves:
-Taunt
-Stealth Rock
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide/Stone Edge

Standard Lead 'Dactyl. Now you can laugh and (quite literally) make fun of Ninjask as it can't do anything on this pokemon. With taunt, your opposing lead is going to have a hard time getting up Stealth Rocks, which would be most pleasant for your Salamence.

Silent Storm · Jul 10th, 2009, 7:09:21 AM

Bullet Punch on Metagross is now a primary option so I don't need to worry about that anymore.

Batmansub · Jul 14th, 2009, 5:40:50 AM

Hey I'm not trying to be judgmental or anything but I don't remember Suicune ever having the ability natural cure.

Jul 3rd, 2009, 4:17:31 PM	#1
Silent Storm Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 159	Salamander's Pit - Salamence-centered team. ____________________________________ *Change-Log* The team has received a massive overhaul. Changed the spread for Latias and am currently testing Thunderbolt. Changed the spread for Bulky Mence. ____________________________________ Introduction Gonna be honest, I didn't plan on revisiting this team cause it honestly flopped for me. Vashta once said that this team was special hyper offence gone wrong among others things. The team itself is pretty generic, considering my attempts at being innovative. The team works in dealing with most of the threats in the current game and Bulky Mence imo is better suited for this team. If all else fails I still have Latias to pick apart everything once Blissey dies, though the amount of special attacker is annoying for me as I like having a balance. If I were to change one member it would be Latias, not because its "cheap" or "gay" or "spammy" but its because I have spammed her on almost all my teams and its getting quite annoying, also not sure about cune either. Right now this is my main team as it has the most win records to date (been playing with it the most lol) and has a lot of my favs in it (I have a lot of favs :¬/). Main issues I have encountered: Once Jirachi is gone the team is rather slow, but I guess being bulky is a good trade off. The big three rip this team to shreads once Jirachi is gone. Not liking Latias on this team too much, despite it being good I have spammed it to death. =/ Too much special attackers, and Suicune takes too long to set up. =/ Main highlights of the team: The team has a lot of resistances, does not care about Stealth Rock. This team consists of various favourites of mine while trying to use not so common sets. The team owns now. =) Other notes (Misc): Salamence being bulky helps deal with stall better (as the old set died too fast). Every single player on this team does not mind toxic spikes, only Suicune minds but it can rest it off, huge plus against stall teams So far the core is three steels and two dragons, as I already have a triple dragon team I am considering getting rid of Latias or something else and keeping the main core three steels and one dragon. In-Depth Look Mamoswine @ Focus Sash Ability: Flash Fire EVs: 6 HP \| 252 Atk \| 252 Spe Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk) Earthquake Endeavor Ice Shard Stealth Rock This lead Mamoswine is mainly here for me to score some kills against dragon types but he does more than that for the team. I Stealth Rock as quickly as possible because of Mamoswine's ability to force switches, should I get lucky enough for my opponent to switch out I switch Mamoswine out and save him for later. For the EVs max attack and speed was the most logical choice here as Mamoswine is really a defensive Pokemon, plus I would want as much speed as possible to hit key Pokemon. Ice Shard + Endeavor is the key of this set, this combo at times has allowed me to take out threats like Scizor and friends providing Sash has not already been broken, Endeavor used in conjunction Ice Shard ensures I gain a free kill which can be game breaking. This offensive team relies sorely on Stealth Rock for some key KOs as well as check Salamence and Gyarados, though this cannot stop other teams from setting up rocks, Mamoswine's overall high attack and ability to set up Stealth Rock 99% of the time made him a worthy addition to the team. --- Suicune @ Leftovers Ability: Pressure EVs: 160 HP \| 120 SAtk \| 228 Spe Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk) Surf Calm Mind Hidden Power [Electric] Ice Beam Crocune, the pokemon that was in my old build has made his return to my team as being the bulky water to compliment my core and handle Blissey. To be honest, I would prefer it if something else be here but I just prefer Crocune as its has been very successful for me and is a pain to get rid of once Vaporeon is outta the way. I had Rotom-h over this but the forum I normally frequent banned him for some insane reason, so I sometimes interchange them. Standard offensive cune was also used as it provided me with more coverage but sr among other thins made me go cro. Me and Skynet have been experimenting with other cune sets as Crocune is just too annoying to use. on Skynet's version of team he has been using offensive Suicune over Crocune. In my opinion, I believe this offensive cune with leftovers is more suited for the team than Crocune. As I mentioned before, despite being immune to status I hate setting with crocune, its tedious and the coverage is horrible. The only problem I would have with the switch to this set is the fact that toxic spikes dicks him over, but the trade off imo is worth it, as I am hitting things I normally wouldn't be able to hit with Crocune. --- Latias @ Life Orb Ability: Levitate EVs: 4 HP \| 252 SAtk \| 252 Spe Nature: Timid (+SAtk, -Atk) Grass Knot Recover Hidden Power [Fire] Dragon Pulse \| Draco Meteor Bait Latias goes a long way in ensuring that the things though would most likely beat Salamence are eliminated so he can have a clean, sweep. Bait Latias also has the luxury of bluffing choice scarf which in turn gets me more surprise kills. Latias forms the first part of the double dragon core attempting to as many things as possible so my other members can exploit the holes she creates. She also acts as my check to Infernape and Heatran who left to do as they please, can defeat my team. --- Scizor @ Choice Band Ability: Technician EVs: 168 HP \| 176 Atk \| 4 Spe \| 160 SDef Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk) Bullet Punch Pursuit U-Turn Superpower --- Salamence @ Leftovers Ability: Intimidate EVs: 214 HP \| 40 Atk \| 176 Def \| 80 Spe Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SAtk) Dragon Claw Roost Earthquake Dragon Dance Salamence acts as the team's centerpiece, the one that usually ends the game once everything hinders a sweep has been weakened or killed off by either Latias or Magnezone. When making the team, I went through several salamence sets, trying to find out which set best fit this team. So far, the sets that has been used have been Mixed Dancer, MixMence (New and Classic), DD Mence with Outrage, DD Mence with Dragon Claw and Bulky Mence. In the end I settled for bulky mence as it gave me a good check to fighting types plus sandstream, life orb and stealth rock will be wearing me down thus preventing a potential sweep. --- Jirachi @ Choice Scarf Ability: Serene Grace EVs: 6 HP \| 252 Atk \| 252 Spe Nature: Jolly (+Atk, -SAtk) Ice Punch Iron Head Fire Punch / Trick Thunderpunch Choice Scarf Jirachi has been placed over Scizor as being the pokemon to handle dragons as well as Gyarados. I orginally had CB Scizor in this spot for scouting and handling Salamence but CS Rachi just did the job better than cor at what I want to accomplish. While Zen Headbutt could be enough for Blissey and co I have decided to add Trick to the set to further screw up stuff that could potentially wall me. Jirachi acts as my fail safe Pokemon against the big three, Tyranitar, Salamence & Gyarados as all three can rip me to shreads if I don't have rachi. Rachi, like Heatran, has a nice amount of resists and immunity to toxic spikes meaning he also won't be leaving any time soon. Lucario @ Life Orb Ability: Inner Focus EVs: 252 Atk \| 6 Def \| 252 Spe Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk) - Crunch - Extremespeed - Close Combat - Swords Dance Salamence @ Life Orb Ability: Intimidate EVs: 252 Atk \| 6 SpA \| 252 Spe Nature: Naive (+Spe, -SpDef) - Dragon Dance - *Fire Blast* - Earthquake - Dragon Claw Considering __________________ Last edited by Silent Storm; Jan 3rd, 2010 at 2:07:31 PM.

Jul 3rd, 2009, 4:23:18 PM	#2
Dormin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Classified. Posts: 371	Hey. I took a look at it, and at first glance I can see a few easy changes you can make. First off, your threat list pretty much shows that anything that can outspeed your team is a problem. To fix stuff like this, I suggest a Scarf Jirachi lead. With trick, you can screw over stuff like Suicune and if you put Fire Punch over U-turn then you can have an effective counter to Lucario even if you trick away the scarf. Also helps against Empoleon. With this change, I would suggest that you mess with Heatran. Instead of a scarf, why not try a SubToxic Heatran or a Sub+3 attack Heatran (Fire Blast, Earth Power, HP Grass, etc.). Both of these sets help wear down bulky water types that might prevent Salamence from sweeping late game. Or, you could put a Magnezone over Heatran to eliminate Scizor, who could also end your Salamence's sweep. This would also pave the way for a Latias sweep as well. On Celebi, I think you could do a lot more with that Earth Power moveslot. I suggest that you use either HP Fire or U-turn. With HP Fire, you can effectively lure in and eliminate Scizor (if you keep Heatran, which I suggest). However, a clean OHKO requires some SpAtk investment. For now I would suggest an EV spread of 252 HP, 220 Def, and 36 Spe with a Bold nature, and try to weaken Scizor first. With U-turn, you can scout the switch and potentially trap Scizor (with Magnezone) or get a free turn on a Heatran switch in to spin away rocks with Starmie. Speaking of Starmie, I would test Expert Belt over Leftovers. With Expert Belt you will deal a hell of a lot more damage to Tyranitar with Hydro Pump, and give your Thunderbolt a lot more bite. Run some calculations. Looks good! __________________ Taking a short hiatus from pokemon--Astronautical Engineering+shoddy=bad grades. Still checking PMs United States Air Force Academy Class of 2012 Shoddy nicks: anything Dormin ....or Dorm Avatar by the renowned Cartoons! Last edited by Dormin; Jul 3rd, 2009 at 7:17:56 PM.

Jul 3rd, 2009, 10:44:35 PM	#3
Silent Storm Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 159	Thanks for the quick response I will be sure to try these new ideas out, bit iffy about the lead Jirachi though. Yeah do believe Earth Power is not needed and I also see the benefits of using U-Turn (scouting is nice) but I generally beleive HP Fire is btter due to his ability to hit Scizor who takes neutral damage from EP, I will replace Earth Power. Expert Belt on Starmie also has its merits but I feel Lefties is better suited for the spread, I guess I am gonna have to spend a day battling even harder while testing your suggestions. I also hate Magnezone, don't know why so he is out of the question, I have foundLO Heatran to be decent but have never tried Substitue on him. __________________ Last edited by Caelum; Jul 3rd, 2009 at 11:35:50 PM. Reason: you misunderstood me lol

Jul 4th, 2009, 2:45:26 AM	#5
AfroThunderRule Join Date: May 2009 Location: New York City Posts: 38	Not much of a team rater but why does your Celebi have only 484 EVs? Also, very weak to Ice, bug and Ghost/Dark. I also see Scizor to be a big problem with your team since your Celebi doesn't have HP Fire on it and doesn't mind the T-Waves from Celebi. And, having a Rapid Spinner in your team isn't a necessary. Sure 25% of your health is taking off but Salamence doesn't mind that all too much and Starmie is really hurting your team IMO which the common weakness it shares with Latias/Celebi with its type Phychic. Last edited by AfroThunderRule; Jul 4th, 2009 at 3:00:14 AM.

Jul 4th, 2009, 8:08:08 AM	#6
Silent Storm Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 159	@LuistheNinja - Thanks for the compliments, yeah it took me a while to construct this whole RMT lol. Hmm seeing as two people have suggested Magnezone over Heatran I guess I should try him out, he does combo well with Salamence offensively and can take care of steel types better, I will try it out and report back once I am done. Recover is on Latias so she can survive for a very long time, there have been moments where Recover has saved my ass which enabled Laias to kill a specific Pokemon I needed to kill, if anything I will replace Thunderbolt with Grass Knot as the only reason Thunderbolt was included was for Gyarados to have one less thing to set up on. @ AfroThunderRule - The EVs are from the analysis, probably a mistake on their part but I am changing it soon so no worries there. Yeah Scizor can be a problem but Heatran handles him to an extent and I had HP Fire on Celebi but got rid of it for Earth Power as I was trying new things, I miss HP Fire so I am going to switch back indefinably. Edit - I have tested Magnezone in some battles on different ladders, yeah he seems to solve some of the problems I have been having, going to type up a new description for him now. I would also like to try Heatran as a lead, as it stands I have three Fire weak Pokemon, with Heatran as my lead I can still have fire immunity plus being able to do the the things Metagross does (excluding priority). __________________ Last edited by Silent Storm; Jul 4th, 2009 at 3:38:18 PM.

Jul 3rd, 2009, 11:19:35 PM	#4
LuistheNinja Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: is it really that important? Posts: 102	I like the fact that your descriptions are nice, narrative, explicit and easy to understand ^_^ I'm very glad atleast someone does that on the forums (not saying no one does but alot of people dont). Anyways, moving to the team I've seen alot of them focusing on Salamence and I don't blame anyone for using it since its a wonderful pokemon. However, I think you have fulfilled a good team sicne you cover most of DD Mence's threats most notably Ice Shard users (Mamoswine, Weavile, Donphan). The team is so well structured in my opinion that there are few changes that I suggest and are minor. First of all, I find Recover as a "filler" in your Latias moveset, not sure if you use it that much but I would personally change it for Grass Knot which can handle Swampert easily and not only him but Tyranitar (im doubting a little due to Thunderbolt's presence in the team) While looking through your threat list I noticed you highlited Suicune and even tho I love it Suicune really is a pin in the ass. To solve this and other problems I recommend a CS Magnezone I think your team benefits from it. Magnezone @ Choice Scarf Ability: Magnet Pull EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpA/ 252Spd Nature: Timid - Flash Cannon - Thunderbolt - Hidden Power [Fire] - Discharge/Explotion It still covers what Heatran's main purpose was: getting Steel types out of Salamence's way. And I think that Magnezone does a better job due to the Magnet Pull abiltiy. The moveset seems to suit nice since it deals with things like Suicune while keeping the double dragon synergy that you stated since the begining and it also becomes a Scizor counter and with enough prediction it can handle Breloom. Hope this helps! Oh! before I forget...if you do run the Magnezone I do not recommend Explotion since having 2 pokemons with Explotion is NEVER a good idea I just mentioned it because I had nothing to fill the last slot. Nature: Timid

Jul 8th, 2009, 8:47:35 PM	#7
iKitsune Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: #Stark Posts: 694	Sorry I've taken ages to get back to you on this one and thanks for the PM. First off i would like to say congratulations on a beautifully presented RMT, I'm beginning to look forward to your teams every once in a while. This team although appearing straightforward and standard in its goals is actually trying to promote a sweep of something that will be extremely difficult to pull off. Although Salamence is undeniably threatening, it is actually, i think you will find rather frail and less succesful then one might think its offensive prowess may imply. Im not suggesting you change the whole premise of the team but i am suggesting that this Salamence is probably not best suited as the focus of the team. I would prefer to see this salamence variant on a more offensive team or perhaps a mixmence to perform hit and run assaults. Forgive me if i'm wrong about Salamence's success. I would like you to consider changing Salamence to a physically bulky variant, lets face it if someone spams physical fighting moves against this team from a random CBer like Hera or Ape or worse Machamp rears its ugly head you are in a lot of trouble. Salamence, taking advantage of its above average defenses and intimidate makes an excellent response to these threats.The only slight downside to this change is that you lose out against Skarmory with shed shell but other than that you should be fine. This is the set: Salamence@ Leftovers Jolly 252hp/180def/76spe DD Roost Dragon Claw EQ This set provides mence with the longevity it needs to sweep (Scizor does a hell of a lot less and of course you can always roost off the damage) as well as making it a superb switch in to fighting types (which this team needs, desperately). Crucially this set does not lock you into outrage so you dont get confused and picked off in the helpless state. Good Luke check although you dont really need one. With this change you can also change Magnezone to a sub zone i think you will find that this set is far better suited to the metagame and is actually a dangerous offensive threat in comparison to Scarf variation that is often set up bait. I would definitely consider this change too. Anyway good luck with the team not really much else i can think of. __________________ <&GEC> crazy dont like you baby Kiss my bloodclot! yeah you know what i mean

Jul 8th, 2009, 10:23:28 PM	#8
Silent Storm Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 159	Thanks for the rate. Yeah for some time now I have been considering using a more defensive Salamence, at the time I felt the set I am currently using was better due to histype coverage, but now he is not really doing as well as before. What I have also considered doing is going for a more physically specialized Salamence with Dragon Claw over Outrage and Roost, imo this would allow me to get rid of Starmie as I am not liking Starmie atm but then there is the issue of finding a new member as I am currently stuck with this team atm. I have though considered Tentacruel over Starmie, he can rapid spin also plus he can knock off and use toxic spikes, but I am going to have to test that change. On another nte Latias with Timid is performing better than expected. __________________

Jul 8th, 2009, 10:34:46 PM	#9
animenagai Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: I make it rain silver points! Posts: 971	Decent team, though there are some things in your descriptions that make me think twice. First of all, why is out of the question to explode on a hippow lead? Hippow leads almost always mean that the opponent is either running stall or just isn't very good (hippow on a balanced team = yuck). If you can explode on the hippow (surprise him by exploding on the first turn), you just eliminated thier DDmence counter. Gross isn't gonna do too much against stall with rotom running around. On the celebi set, I think you'll be much better off running the tinkerbell set (modest LO). It's all in the analysis. Leaf storm OHKO's flygon on the switch, which is pretty priceless on this team. I don't really see what you'll be missing out on with a switch like this, so I would change it ASAP. Finally, I know you're running salamence, but you never really need a rapid spinner on an offensive team like this. You have enough resistances so mence doesn't need to come out till late game, so one SR isn't so bad. I wouldn't mind seeing a scarfed heatran or something like that in starmie's place, as starmie is pursuit weak and often gets wrecked against offence. If you do that, you can think about running a sub-rise maggy with HP fire instead to help you kill those steels better. If not, then I would personally give starmie HP fire > rapid spin to lure that scizor. __________________ Why do people package their RMT's in such lame ways? No, your pokemon is nothing like the story/song/anime/myth you've themed this team around, now snap out of it!

Jul 8th, 2009, 10:57:25 PM	#10
Silent Storm Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 159	Haha funny thing the first draft of this team was using tinkerbell, but then I thought the team would benefit greatly from having a more defensive Celebi, it worked to an extent but yeah I am missing the extra power. I have noticed though I have way too many special attackers for my liking, with Starmie gone I would probably be able to balance it this out with another water Pokemon, unfortunatly this is where I get stuck. __________________

Jul 8th, 2009, 11:10:19 PM	#11
animenagai Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: I make it rain silver points! Posts: 971	You can always run suicune over starmie. Crocune beats bliss one on one. __________________ Why do people package their RMT's in such lame ways? No, your pokemon is nothing like the story/song/anime/myth you've themed this team around, now snap out of it!

Jul 9th, 2009, 2:39:08 AM	#12
joshe Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: a sexy place Posts: 513	This is a great team. I don't have much to say here except a few points and a second "conscience" on your team. I think a Crocune (as nagai just pointed out) would slot nicely over Starmie. Therefore you can change Celebi to a Tinkerbell, and go with all physical mence since you have over 3/4ths of the team that can take care of Skarmory (and to a lesser extent, brongzong, althought its not nearly as common as skarm). You could run roost over fire blast, along with an adamant (or jolly?) nature with 252 atk/4 def/252 spe. With roost you won't need rapid spin support, and Latias counters infernape anyway, making me think more and more that starmie is dead weight on this team. You could even put a lum berry on mence to help it get an extra Dragon Dance or to help save it from a ruined sweep. Also with Crocune, you get to beat Blissey one on one (it'll take a while lol), possibly allowing latias to do a bit more damage to your opponents team than without a good way to beat blissey (Salamence or Metagross would have to take care of it, and metagross is more than likely dead, and you don't want to waste mence on beating blissey). Sorry if this wasn't much help, although I hope I did a bit of thinking for you :DD Good Luck with the team :) Last edited by joshe; Jul 9th, 2009 at 3:22:50 AM. Reason: fixed a bit of grammatical errors :P

Jul 9th, 2009, 8:54:17 PM	#13
Silent Storm Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 159	Well after some wifi games and battles on other ladders, I have come to a decision that Starmie is the weak link here, I tried the defensive Salamence and imo, I prefer the raw power from adamant and max speed. I am torn though, I have been giving LO Suicune a try and I like the coverage he has but Crocune has recovery and ofcourse the chance of beating Blissey one-on-one (considering my team consists mainly of special attackers, I don't know. But yeah the changes are so far doing ok for me, especially tinkerbell, but I have also considered Scizor as a potential member of the team over Celebi. __________________

Jul 10th, 2009, 1:37:08 AM	#14
Futility Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 29	As you said, your Metagross lead can't kill off Ninjask, and with no priority moves on your team, Ninjask is going to pass at least Speed, if not attack, onto a sweeper and then it's simply gg for you. Since you also have the priority of making sure Stealth Rocks don't reach the field, since that's going to cause the most trouble for your Salamence, an Aerodactyl would probably serve as a better lead. Aerodactyl @ Focus Sash Nature: Jolly EV's: 4 HP / 252 ATK / 252 Spe Moves: -Taunt -Stealth Rock -Earthquake -Rock Slide/Stone Edge Standard Lead 'Dactyl. Now you can laugh and (quite literally) make fun of Ninjask as it can't do anything on this pokemon. With taunt, your opposing lead is going to have a hard time getting up Stealth Rocks, which would be most pleasant for your Salamence.

Jul 10th, 2009, 7:09:21 AM	#15
Silent Storm Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 159	Bullet Punch on Metagross is now a primary option so I don't need to worry about that anymore. __________________

Jul 14th, 2009, 5:40:50 AM	#16
Batmansub Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1	Abilities Hey I'm not trying to be judgmental or anything but I don't remember Suicune ever having the ability natural cure.