Move Legality and Japanese Ditto Breeding Mechanics (EDIT: IMPORTANT UPDATE INSIDE)

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It has been confirmed that Shoddy Battle 2 will include the Japanese Ditto Breeding Mechanics that allow Ditto to temporarily learn moves to pass on in Breeding. The ramifications of this are that certain moves now become legal on Genderless or One Gender Only Pokemon species.

The following previously illegal moves are now legal:

Baltoy: Psybeam (Level 11), Selfdestruct (Level 19), Power Trick (Level 31), Cosmic Power (Level 45), Heal Block (Level 61)

Beldum: Nothing

Bronzor: Hypnosis (Level 7), Imprison (Level 12), Confuse Ray (Level 14), Extrasensory (Level 19), Iron Defense (Level 26), Future Sight (Level 37), Faint Attack (Level 41), Heal Block (Level 52)

Magnemite: Thundershock (Level 6), Spark (Level 22), Lock-On (Level 27), Magnet Bomb (Level 30), Screech (Level 33), Discharge (Level 38), Mirror Shot (Level 43), Zap Cannon (Level 54)

Porygon: Psybeam (Level 7), Agility (Level 12), Recover (Level 18), Recycle (Level 34), Discharge (Level 40), Lock-On (Level 45), Tri-Attack (Level 51), Magic Coat (Level 56), Zap Cannon (Level 62)

Staryu: Water Gun (Level 6), Rapid Spin (Level 10), Recover (Level 15), Camouflage (Level 19), BubbleBeam (Level 28), Power Gem (Level 46), Cosmic Power (Level 51), Hydro Pump (Level 55)

Voltorb: Spark (Level 12), Rollout (Level 15), Screech (Level 19), Selfdestruct (Level 29), Mirror Coat (Level 47)

[Dracoyoshi8]

Well, because I was told to post, here is my opinion on what will happen to these pokemon.

Baltoy - Doesn't look like it will change much. It will still probably be used for Trick Room set up. None of his moves seem exciting.

Beldum - lol

Bronzor - Hypnosis Bronzor is going to be annoying to face, mostly because Bronzor has the defenses to afford a miss with hypnosis. I predict Bronzor usage will rise. Confuse Ray might be useful as well. All the other moves are unexciting imo.

Magnemite - Discharge will probably see some usage, and the paralysis helps it with it's speed. Nothing else seems like it would be worthwhile.

Porygon - Holy crap. Porygon got a lot of great moves. Agility, Recover, Tri Attack, Discharge and Magic Coat are all excellent. Porygon usage will sky rocket. It could play super offensive like...Porygon Z or defensive like Porygon2. Recycle seems interesting, and opens up some new ideas. All in all, Porygon will be an absolute monster after Agility and a Download boost

Staryu - I'm really excited about this one. Rapid Spin and Recover may see some use, but Hydro Pump is what really shines. Even Munchlax will be taking a lot of damage from Hydro Pump. Because of this, I predict Chinchou usage will bounce up, to handle it.

Voltorb - I've been using Mirrior Coat all this time, and I didn't even know it was illegal. Actually, Mirrior Coat might prove useful. All it's other moves, not so much.

Porygon, Bronzor and Staryu benefitted (sp?) the most from this, while Beldum and Baltoy probably benifitted the least.

... I think i sounded to formal....or i have cutty sentences...

[kd24]

I remember a long time ago when a few people used Tri Attack Porygon before we remembered about these move restrictions. That thing was damn near unstoppable, and I believe it will be so when it finally becomes legal. When you have an Agility/Tri Attack/Shadow Ball/Ice Beam or Thunderbolt Porygon with Download, you have a force that is going to find plenty of set up.

I have no idea why Magnemite isn't see more usage right now since with Magnet Rise it can really destroy Bronzor, Diglett, and Gligar (I thought he got MR as a result of this, not move tutor). Anyway, going to say, I look forward to Staryu, as it can finally Recover and Hydro Pump which is going to be a big pain to a lot of Pokemon such as Munchlax who is considered a premiere Special Wall.

[Matthew]

This is obviously going to change a lot, mostly being that Porygon is now more useful outside of Trick Room now, and has a lot of power behind its Tri Attack too.

[little gk]

oh boy this is gonna be big. Porygon will become top tier OU easily now with Tri Attack and Agility. Staryu is something to be excited about too with an even stronger STAB now and it gets recover now. Finally, now that bronzor will be able to get hypnosis its popularity will rise for sure esspecially with how important missing a turn can be in Little Cup.

[TPM]

Ah yes, this is beautiful.
Staryu gets what hes always wanted; a super strong STAB and the chance to shine as a great spinner, maybe the best.
Bronzor's Hypnosis, not so exciting for me. Its gonna be a bitch to take down, even moresoe now. Really I think its gonna make the game less fun. Hypnosis/Reflect/LightScreen/Attack? Blehck.
Porygon will be brought back to OU, no doubt about it. I'm actually a bit scared. Gligar is being called Uber because of Agility, and Porygon is basically the same only not as bulky.
Smoochum can sing now cool.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Honestly, I don't think that Porygon will be as huge as it seems. There are already solid Agility abusers in the metagame, such as Mantyke and Gligar, and these abusers are both bulkier AND stronger, as well as resisting most priority. Porygon also has to invest hard in Speed to get anywhere, given its base 40 speed, which means that it's going to have to give up some bulk for it.

Bronzor is just gonna be kind of ehh, and as much as I agree that it might make the game "less fun", it's not going to be overpowered in the slightest.

[TPM]

SDS, Porygon has Download, so he could be much stronger then Mantyke or Gligar.

[Magik0722]

can someone explain to me what this japanese ditto mechanic is?

[sbc]

Bronzor Hypnosis may actually balance the metagame somewhat. It will perhaps push up Mankey usage due to Vital Spirit, as Hypnosis could well become staple and there isn't really a viable way of absorbing sleep.

Also, if SB2 implements Recycle then we could see another big change.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Originally Posted by Fat Magik0722

can someone explain to me what this japanese ditto mechanic is?

Basically, in Japanese Diamond/Pearl, if you Transform into your target with a Ditto (or anything else) and then get Fainted, that Ditto keeps the moves until the next time it visits a Pokemon Center. Because of this, you can use a Ditto with any move to Breed. If you breed this Ditto with a female Pokemon, you can use it to pass previously incompatible Egg Moves. In Little Cup, you can use it to breed Level Up moves onto Genderless Pokemon and Female/Male Only Pokemon.

Originally Posted by Fat sbc

Bronzor Hypnosis may actually balance the metagame somewhat. It will perhaps push up Mankey usage due to Vital Spirit, as Hypnosis could well become staple and there isn't really a viable way of absorbing sleep.

Also, if SB2 implements Recycle then we could see another big change.

I don't see Mankey switching into Bronzor any time soon, now that it has dropped Gyro Ball for Psychic. That said, there might be a couple more Sleep Absorbers per team, maybe involving sticking Sleep Talk onto Munchlax in that last slot.

[sbc]

I was thinking as more as a pivot, it would be much harder to switch in your Bronzor counter, be it if its spamming Hypnosis though pivoting to Mankey and then the threat of Close Combat is enough to stop anyone spamming Hypnosis, luring out the Psychic for the switch to Houndour or whatever without voluntarily incapacitating one of your pokemon.

[TPM]

What would be a desirable speed to hit with Porygon after Agility? Is 26 too much?

[Deck Knight]

Screw Agility, Trick Room is where it's at. Good luck beating Tri-Attack/Thunderbolt/Shadow Ball...

Magnemite with Discharge could see some use too. Sub/Discharge/HP Ice/Flash Cannon... more paralysis chance means better Magnemite methinks...

[Pyromanic]

No. Agility is the right move. Munchy can switch in on the trick room. I don't think tri attack is a OHKO. I know return is at least a 2HKO. Although muchy switching in on the agility will probably prevent the sweep due to being able to be picked off by priority afterwords.

[Deck Knight]

Does this affect the breeding legality of pokemon with genders?

Its rather important to know the full extent of this.

[dr00]

i would like to know the extent of this as well.

as i understand it, the ditto needs to know the moves, meaning another pokemon needs to know the moves

(i know this sounds redundant), but my point is, we know for sure a larvitar with pursuit / dragon dance is NOT possible, right?



additionally, i read somewhere that some electivire somewhere down the line was supposed to get volt tackle and that it was a "hidden" egg move.
granted, i haven't tested this, but assuming it's true, an elekid with volt tackle could exist.


this works on all japanese versions of diamond/pearl?
if so, i'm going to try to get a real copy of the game and test it out (or i'm sure someone else can help with this)

[Rook]

Originally Posted by Fat dr00

i would like to know the extent of this as well.

as i understand it, the ditto needs to know the moves, meaning another pokemon needs to know the moves

(i know this sounds redundant), but my point is, we know for sure a larvitar with pursuit / dragon dance is NOT possible, right?



additionally, i read somewhere that some electivire somewhere down the line was supposed to get volt tackle and that it was a "hidden" egg move.
granted, i haven't tested this, but assuming it's true, an elekid with volt tackle could exist.


this works on all japanese versions of diamond/pearl?
if so, i'm going to try to get a real copy of the game and test it out (or i'm sure someone else can help with this)

But you're forgetting something. If you breed a male with a ditto, it still inherits the male's egg moves. Therefore, the male larvitar can have dragon dance, and the glitched ditto can have pursuit.

[Stellar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LHKAZ3ClGY

That's a link to the video where I proved you could get a Ditto with any four moves (the basis of SB2 mechanics and this thread).

[Heysup]

So does this also make QA/Flare Blitz Ponyta legal, as well as Cross Chop / Flare Blitz Magby?

[Dummy007]

So, to be clear: This means that any Pokemon in Little Cup can learn any of its Level-Up moves AND any combination of its egg moves?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Yes. However, remember that generational move illegality, such as 3G Move Tutor + 4G Egg Move or 3G Exclusive Level Up Move & 4G Exclusive Level Up Move or any permutation of those is still illegal.

[Heysup]

Originally Posted by Fat Heysup

So does this also make QA/Flare Blitz Ponyta legal, as well as Cross Chop / Flare Blitz Magby?

so in this case, QA / Flare Blitz is still illegal, but I'm not exactly sure about Cross Chop / Flare Blitz.....can I get some confirmation that this is still (il)legal?

[Stellar]

Flare Blitz / Cross Chop are both 4th generation egg moves, so it would be legal.

[dr00]

Originally Posted by Fat loedoc

But you're forgetting something. If you breed a male with a ditto, it still inherits the male's egg moves. Therefore, the male larvitar can have dragon dance, and the glitched ditto can have pursuit.

are you saying it gets egg moves from the male and the glitched ditto?


and i just realized from watching the video that you can do this on a smeargle, making my original question kind of pointless.