Die, Lull. Die!

[cyberzero]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

Regarding Mini-tournaments, they were phased out because of a lack of interest, and the scoreboard had to be updated regularly. However if they were scheduled instead of "whenever", there would be a ton more server traffic on those times. There are a bunch of ways these could be implemented.

Actually, they weren't phased out due to lack of interest entirely. According to Bass' post here, you can see that he felt that the ladder and MT scoreboard were redundant. Although this is true, many people, including myself, have lost interest in attaining a high score on the ladder and just want a quick battle. You can find it on the ladder, but it takes forever to find a match. When the MT Scoreboard left, the MTs went along as well. There was really no point in having any MTs anymore. I'm not disagreeing with Bass' decision here, but rather seconding the idea of a more schedule tournament, something like the Smogon Tour, but just for CAP. I hope that it won't come up to be a second Tour, because me and many other CAP regulars really don't appreciate it when one-timers come and act as if they own us, which tends to happen when we have big events in CAP.

[Fuzznip]

Well, obviously mini-tournaments are going to be a huge hit, everybody likes them and they were really fun back when they were running. That must be on the to-do list.

Why don't we start off by hosting an actual CAP tournament with 64 participants? CAP is essentially going under extreme changes, so the tournament will be like a grand-reopening of CAP somewhat. We will get tons of attention, as people will have to test teams and such (meaning the ladder will be pretty active), and will come back for more once the tournament is over if they like what they see.

I think there has been a CAP tournament in the past, I honestly forgot, but I feel that it's a decent way to start off things.

[eric the espeon]

I would love to bring MTs back, but I know from long experience that keeping the scoreboard updated was a massive task especially when the MTs were creating the most activity. If there was a way to relatively easily add scores onto the list of players and have the list order and number itself, this would be made much easier and I'm sure there are several people willing and able to put in this level of effort to maintain the scoreboard. Perhaps this could co-inside with the launch of CaP 9 among other things?

As for turning MTs into a scheduled thing with pre-set rules, no. If shedueled tournaments are wanted by all means we should have them, but keep it separate. MTs in the sense that we had them before are nothing like that. They are set up in a way that is highly flexible and lets players interact with the TO to suggest when and what type of MT should be held, as well as intentionally giving TOs large amounts of freedom to run tourneys with various unusual rulesets (I remember a few mono-Arceus tournaments) how they see fit, but keeping an eye on how players react to it. If its not fun then its not good. If it is fun, then it must be good because MTs are simply for fun.

I do actually like the idea of having some scheduled tournaments. Its just that putting them in the place of the old system pretty much means that reviving the old system is almost impossible, and we all know how popular and community building it was, and could be again.

Edit: yes fuzzy, we have had two big CaP tournaments in the past + the first cross server one which was partly CaP.

[tennisace]

Originally Posted by Fat Fuzznip

Why don't we start off by hosting an actual CAP tournament with 64 participants? CAP is essentially going under extreme changes, so the tournament will be like a grand-reopening of CAP somewhat. We will get tons of attention, as people will have to test teams and such (meaning the ladder will be pretty active), and will come back for more once the tournament is over if they like what they see.

Stellar brought this up, but we're going to wait after CAP9 since its been after every three.

Originally Posted by Fat eric the espeon

As for turning MTs into a scheduled thing with pre-set rules, no. If shedueled tournaments are wanted by all means we should have them, but keep it separate. MTs in the sense that we had them before are nothing like that. They are set up in a way that is highly flexible and lets players interact with the TO to suggest when and what type of MT should be held, as well as intentionally giving TOs large amounts of freedom to run tourneys with various unusual rulesets (I remember a few mono-Arceus tournaments) how they see fit, but keeping an eye on how players react to it. If its not fun then its not good. If it is fun, then it must be good because MTs are simply for fun.

You want to draw in people by advertising tournaments, but then say the tournaments are going to be "whenever we feel like it". People can't be arsed to idle until someone decides its a good time for a tournament.

I do actually like the idea of having some scheduled tournaments. Its just that putting them in the place of the old system pretty much means that reviving the old system is almost impossible, and we all know how popular and community building it was, and could be again.

Why do we need to revive the old system when it was quite flawed? MT's don't run 24/7, and neither do people. If you want to build a community, cater to when it's convenient for people to battle.

[Beej]

I agree with Plus. If mini-tourneys return to the CAP server, they should be organized like the LNT. While the original "whenever we feel like it" MTs were fun while they lasted, the fact that they were so lax in their scheduling or even the metagames involved (random/LC/etc. tournaments were the norm >>) really contributed to their downfall, as most non-regulars will only enter tournaments that have an official air to them. In many cases, tournaments were simply allowed to die whenever the regulars that were entered became uninterested. I think that having sign-ups on the forums and increasing the exclusivity of TO positions would contribute to the legitimacy of the CAP MTs and will thus attract more people.

[HD]

Having organized MTs that are posted on the forums would be great. Most of the time only CaP regulars go on any more, and to find out about the MT if you don't go to CaP would be rather hard. I agree with postin the tournament on the CaP forums so people would notice.

[eric the espeon]

Originally Posted by Fat tennisace

You want to draw in people by advertising tournaments, but then say the tournaments are going to be "whenever we feel like it". People can't be arsed to idle until someone decides its a good time for a tournament.

Not whenever "we" feel like it, but whenever enough people want to have one. If someone wants to play a MT and there are more than 4 active people who want to play, why not have one? The old system of MTs does not exclude having scheduled tournaments, and maybe having scheduled tournaments as mart of the MT system would be workable, but not as a total replacement.

Why do we need to revive the old system when it was quite flawed? MT's don't run 24/7, and neither do people. If you want to build a community, cater to when it's convenient for people to battle.

Flawed in what way exactly? And MTs never ran 24/7, there was just the option to run one whenever there was demand. Its a much more flexible system that takes the community's wishes directly. I don't see why you are suggesting that having set times would mean that tourneys happen at a more continent time for people, maybe it would lead to larger tournaments, but if players can actively suggest and run tournaments at the times that suit them surely it would be most "convenient".

Originally Posted by Fat Beej

I agree with Plus. If mini-tourneys return to the CAP server, they should be organized like the LNT. While the original "whenever we feel like it" MTs were fun while they lasted, the fact that they were so lax in their scheduling or even the metagames involved (random/LC/etc. tournaments were the norm >>) really contributed to their downfall, as most non-regulars will only enter tournaments that have an official air to them.

I agree that some overspecific tournaments were harder for non-regs to enter, but those were what people at the time wanted and enjoyed. Non-regs could still join if they were willing to spend a few minutes throwing together a team.

In many cases, tournaments were simply allowed to die whenever the regulars that were entered became uninterested. I think that having sign-ups on the forums and increasing the exclusivity of TO positions would contribute to the legitimacy of the CAP MTs and will thus attract more people.

From what I recall, once a tourney had started it was very, very rare for it to stop because of the players. For scheduled MTs having forum sign ups may be useful, but there is no reason at all to exclude the old style MTs and excluding them would miss out on a great opportunity.

[latinoheat]

Maybe you could do the mini tournaments where it is one CAP at a time, makes it easier for new people to adapt and also helps with playtesting. Maybe one at weekend and one in the week, i'd be happy to help with this.

[locopoke]

Well I wasn't involved in cap during the old MT's but I really like the idea of having them be "official" and organized/scheduled, sort of like Smogon Tour (like cyberzero said). I think that this will attract more people.

Also latinoheat, playtesting is over, I think most people are pretty tired of it. Cap isn't a very hard metagame to learn and I'm sure any decent battler won't have a problem.

[Beej]

eric, while all of that may be true, the fact still remains that the lack of formal organization in the tournaments gave them an air of unimportance, and as such people were not willing to come from other servers or Smogon to participate in them in large numbers. Organizing the MTs like a tour is the best way to go about fixing this as far as I'm concerned, because it has become blatantly clear that the previous MT system did not succeed in this vein (absolutely not trying to discredit Bass or anyone else involved in running the old system, you did your best and I commend you for it).

I think we can all agree that the majority of users we're looking to bring over to our server for the MTs are from Smogon, and by having sign-ups on the forums, we provide a direct gateway from Smogon to the CAP server. We had absolutely no difficulty whatsoever finding new people to sign up for the official CAP tournament for this reason. As far as people acting like they own the server goes, you don't own it anymore than they own it. The whole "regulars own the chat" mentality is extremely xenophobic and will prevent us from growing in the long run. The entire purpose of this project is to gain more activity on the server, and quite frankly, "beggers can't be choosers".

[Magmortified]

A possible idea would be to split mini tournies up into scheduled "Official" MTs, and unscheduled unofficial MTs that could primarily service to more obscure battle ideas such as Mono-Arceus.

"Official MTs" could go into an MT leaderboard similar as to what we had originally, with somebody to update it. This'd ease some of the strain on the leaderboard updater, as now it'll only be a definite x amount per day, instead of an unrestricted number of tourney results being funneled to the updater. It makes the official tourneys feel more important, while covering up for the problems we had earlier with a random tournament being equal in weight to OU.

The whenever MTs would not be reported, and would essentially be more for fun - though they would still be presided over by officially determined MTs.

This way, we can have a solid, significant, organized Mini Tourney structure, while allowing for some flexibility. Yes?

[HD]

Originally Posted by Fat Magmortified

A possible idea would be to split mini tournies up into scheduled "Official" MTs, and unscheduled unofficial MTs that could primarily service to more obscure battle ideas such as Mono-Arceus.

"Official MTs" could go into an MT leaderboard similar as to what we had originally, with somebody to update it. This'd ease some of the strain on the leaderboard updater, as now it'll only be a definite x amount per day, instead of an unrestricted number of tourney results being funneled to the updater. It makes the official tourneys feel more important, while covering up for the problems we had earlier with a random tournament being equal in weight to OU.

The whenever MTs would not be reported, and would essentially be more for fun - though they would still be presided over by officially determined MTs.

This way, we can have a solid, significant, organized Mini Tourney structure, while allowing for some flexibility. Yes?

Yes.

This idea allows us to ask for a MT when it is not scheduled, allowing more freedom and fun, aswell as practice for the official ones. The scheduled official ones would be like a regular tourney on the Tournaments Board, allowing for more order than previously. I'm all for this idea.

[Carparama]

100% in agreement with Mag's idea. As a relative newbie in this community, official scheduled tournaments excite me, and make me want to stick around.

As for "tournaments whenever we want", the unofficial tourneys would be good for this too. It's fun, good practice, but won't be the same "value" as the official tournament. I love the idea.

[eric the espeon]

That sounds great Mag. I think that the discussion about how/when exactly to run the new format of MTs should probably move to a separate thread and allow this one to look for new ways to kill the lull.

[Apocalypse B-C]

Mentioned this on the server (with, eh, mixed responses), but I believe prevos were in the works for some (or all) CAP pokemon? Given that they already have an evo as a base to work off of, these could be used for 'mini-CAP' projects - shorter CAPs that could then be playtested in, say, Little Cup? With any luck, that would pick up CAP server activity a lot in the playtesting, given how Little Cup already seems to be picking up in popularity, at least in my experience....just posting it here to try to gauge the reactions....and how decent or crappy an idea it is.

[gorm]

all i can say is: a well structured evo revival!
;D

[MrBlack]

I'll just say, I only have a very vague idea of what's going on here. But maybe someone like that's the person you need to hear from.

You say the problem is "newbies" aren't getting involved.

I would say this is a result of the elitist attitude of this forum. Just reading around, it's constantly being mentinoned that this is "Only for people with extensive knowledge of competitive battling".

Which has two consequences. One, the new players don't feel they are welcome here. Secondly, they know that if they come to this place, there will only be "pro" players. They won't have motivation to fight, because they know their opponent's knowledge/skill far surpasses theirs.

Not to mention, even "normal" competitive battlers won't have any experience in the CAP metagame, and the regulars/those who have been there since the start will just win from pure experience in the environment. Most "Normal" competitive battlers simply won't bother because they're just so much more comfortable in the environment they're familiar with.

Now, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to make the point clear that this project is only for these highly advanced players... but it's made maybe too clear, and the standard is set too high. I know I took slight interest in a "Create-A-Pokemon Project" but when I casually looked into it, I got a real "get out unless you're super serious and pro" vibe.

Wouldn't know how to solve this, just voicing my thoughts. I really am not out for any motive except to give you insight from someone outside of this project.

And I'm not some fanboy trying to bring to life a creation from year 5, I'm genuinely interested in competitive battling and would be interested in ironing out what I consider some fundamental flaws.

Sure, I've been out of the game for a while, too much study and such to do, but I played competitive battling for a very long time and it's fairly cemented in my system.

One thing I was very impressed with in this project was the Mountaineering ability: First thing I thought when I saw a Bug/Ice Pokemon was "Too bad it gets destroyed by Stealth Rock", as is an unfortunate reaction to many pokemon with the wrong typing (Articuno for example). But that ability was a pleasant slap in the face to my prejudice.
I also like that you created moves to cover some physical/special power that certain types lack (the rock one in particular). And a usable Pokemon with Unaware. And a well thought out Rapid Spinner. Plus the art of these Pokemon is awesome =]

[zarator]

First of all, there is no place on CAP where it is said "Only for people with extensive knowledge of competitive battling". At worst, you may read that some threads - like the Policy Reviews, the Topic Leader ones etc - are reserved to the CAP Policy Committee. The CAP Policy Committee is composed by experienced members of CAP which can judge who would be a good Topic LEader, how to shape the policy of future CAPs and so on. These are subjects that almost naturally require an experienced knowledge to be approached.

But the CAP process itself is open to everyone. When the TL (aka Topic Leader) will be voted, the CAP9 Concept Submission thread will open, and you will be able to contribute as much as anyone else. Just prove to have "some" competitive knowledge (shitty concepts will never get other people attention anyway, whether you are an old member or a newer one) and you will impress the community very easily.

There is nothing truly elitarist in CAP's attitude, and once you will get into it you will realize it by yourself.

EDIT: also what KoA said

[KoA]

I don't battle ever and yet I'm an extremely dedicated member of CaP. You don't need knowledge of battling or the CaP metagame to be able to jump in, so those points are moot.

It's all about the will you have to be a part of something different.

[MrBlack]

Like I said, my only motive here was to provide insight from an outsider. This isn't about me or getting what I want or anything. In my own interest, what happens here means nothing. I purely posted to try and help.

I will support what I said with some quotes though...

(I've used boldened text to draw attention to the particularly strong parts)

Originally Posted by Fat CAP Forum Rules

All posts should demonstrate a good working knowledge of the CAP project and the competitive pokemon metagame. Less experienced users are welcome to vote in CAP polls, but please refrain from contributing to discussions, until you have a firm grasp on how the project works and how the competitive metagame is played.

Originally Posted by Fat Create-A-Pokemon: A Guide for Newcomers

This is a competitive project, and everyone is expected to focus their discussion primarily on competitive concerns that can be discussed in an analytical manner.

Originally Posted by Fat Create-A-Pokemon: A Guide for Newcomers

but the TL is given wide powers to keep the project moving along in an organized way. You don't have to like the TL's opinions, but you need to respect their decisions.

The 1st one is the clincher, the 2nd one along the same lines but not as much and the 3rd one just a small example of something that might turn newcomers off.

A couple examples of a negative attitude towards newcomers...

Originally Posted by Fat Create-A-Pokemon: A Guide for Newcomers

before you jump into the forum and start participating, here's a few tips to prevent you from looking like an idiot, or worse, getting an infraction:

Originally Posted by Fat Create-A-Pokemon: A Guide for Newcomers

An easy way to look foolish, is to jump into a CAP discussion thread and make non-competitive comments.

Just some things which jumped out at me and didn't really invite me into the project. I'm not trying to bring down the project, I'm not posting out of some personal frustration or emotional connection of any kind, I'm not even offering solutions. Just exposing some aspects which I believe might turn away newcomers, from the point of view of a potential newcomer. Thought it might be good for you guys to hear from someone part of the target audience.

Originally Posted by Fat Umbreon Dan

Everyone else who's posted in this thread is a #cap regular. (actually, both of the quotes in my signature are from #cap.)

And lastly, I'd like to draw attention to this (I'd bolden the entire thing but that'd be redundant and annoying)...

Originally Posted by Fat familyguyman

Notice how only the big time members, besides me, are contributing here? Where are the newbies? Why aren't we asking them what they would like to see? What would bring them here? Perhaps some sort of informal survey will help us get good ideas instead of just thinking what would be good since we are biased as CAP frequenters.

Even now, I feel like my opinion is being discounted readily, which, if I were new, would totally turn me off from being a member here, I think that has to change.

If you want to ignore me, no probs. No harm done. I'm only offering insight as part of the target audience, it's there to do what you want with it.

Edit: Not sure how "Fat" was added to the start of each quote reference.

[Bass]

Please explain to me why there has to be some sort of leaderboard in order for mini-tournaments to be popular. I thought I went through this already when I took down the original leaderboard a while back, and I am not sure why some of you guys don't get it. There is nothing that's stopping people from actively participating in mini-tournaments now besides the lack of server traffic. If you really need a leaderboard to become interested in MT's, then you are completely missing the point. I was one of the most active people in this area back when they were still popular (which was a year and a half ago), and back then I considered the leaderboard to be almost an afterthought. The fun to be had is in the battles themselves!

Of course, that isn't to say that I don't agree that they can be a great way to bring server traffic back up. In fact, I really like the idea of scheduled tournaments. It certainly works for the Smogon University Server and even the TU server, for example.

[zarator]

Mr Black, the fact that you are required to understand the competitive aspect of CAP doesn't seem too much of an issue. Of course, you need to know something about competitive battling to contribute to most discussions, and then? You need this knowledge to contribute into almost any other subforum of Smogon. If you don't know anything about the OU metagame, then yes, you should refrain from contributing. First, you should polish your battling skills a bit through shoddy battle, tutoring, whatever. It's not a big deal. Anyone here did this.

About the "look idiot" thing, is more of an help to newcomers than anything. When you approach a new environment - like when you go on a MMORPG, for example - it is crucial to know what to do, and what NOT to do. These are just the basics of a successful introducing to a community of any kind, not just CAP.

To sum it up, there is nothing wrong into lurking before contributing. I have been a lurker for months before starting to understand what the CAP really was about and actually contributing to discussions on par with the most experienced members. And there is nothing wrong with the "gain some experience before jump in" thing, if at all, this should just prove you that CAP is a serious project and not just a fanboy shitstorm like some of the newcomers may think (at least, judging on the quality of their posts)

[DougJustDoug**]

The CAP project encourages newcomers, but we do not encourage newcomers to join the project and participate based on their probable first impression of the project. Over the history of the CAP project, we KNOW that many, many newcomers to the project look at the project at first glance and think,

"Oh wow, Smogon is making a fake pokedex of cool pokemon ideas from the general public! I have lots of ideas for new pokemon -- I'll jump right in and start telling everyone about them."

It happens A LOT.

And since those users don't take the time to understand the goal and operations of the project, they get admonished by other project participants or possibly infracted by the forum staff. I really don't like to see new members get discouraged like that -- but I don't like the CAP project getting derailed by newcomer BS even more than that. So, if forced to choose between infracting newcomers, or letting non-competitive fanboy BS run rampant in the CAP project -- I'll choose the former.

But, I would prefer to have neither. I'd like to have a interesting focused project, AND encourage newcomers to join in the fun.

For that reason, we have tried to advertise in as many places as possible "NEWCOMERS WELCOME - But please don't jump in based on your first impressions of the project." That's why we wrote the Newcomers Guide, and that's why we placed it front and center in the middle of the CAP website. That's why we put big bold disclaimers on Policy Review threads, and that's why we liberally reinforce the competitive focus of the project in almost every other thread in the CAP project.

I can certainly see how that stuff may be intimidating. But, I think it is far less intimidating than getting berated publicly, or being infracted for posting in what appears to be a silly little fanboy fakedex project. If the information or wording appears elitist -- I can see that too. We certainly feel like this project is a competitive project, and that other fakedex projects on the internet are not competitive-focused. I also think this project is the best fakedex project on the internet. If that is elitist -- so be it. The entire Smogon community is regularly perceived as "elitist" -- mainly because we take a "stupid kids game" like Pokemon, and emphasize the serious competitive aspects of the game. If the CAP project gets painted with that same brush -- so be it.

I can see how our constant references to "competitive focus" might imply to people that "you better be a REALLY good battler to participate in CAP". But, that is certainly not true, and no one on the project believes that. We do have some very accomplished battlers here, but we also have people that battle very rarely, if at all. Just because everyone is "competitively focused", that does not mean everyone is "competitively accomplished". Unfortunately, if we do not advertise the competitive focus of the project all over the place -- newcomers will think this is a purely fan-based effort. So, we have to keep beating the competitive drum, even if some people misconstrue the message. Nowhere in any of the project propaganda, do we say you have to be a good battler. But, we do expect all active posting participants to know the competitive metagame and how it is played.

I want the CAP project be open and available to newcomers. That's why I want the Newcomers Guide prominently located on the front page. The existence and placement of the Newcomers Guide, is a strong statement that newcomers are a big part of this project. But, hopefully, the wording of the guide and other rules makes it clear upon which terms newcomers' participation is welcomed.

[Illithian]

Doug, about a year ago, I was lurking and I saw the Create a Pokemon board. It seemed interesting. I'm smart enough to realize that it wasn't some board where random people post ideas, but when I looked into it, it seemed unbelievably overcomplicated. Most people don't realize what goes into creating a pokemon. They forget about base stats, and ability, and typing, and the combination of the three. They don't realize how much argument goes into figuring out those three.

Anyway, the best way to get newcomers here is a stickied guide that has a quick overview of the project and an in depth explanation of what goes into it, how you can contribute, etc.

[DougJustDoug**]

Originally Posted by Fat Illithian

Anyway, the best way to get newcomers here is a stickied guide that has a quick overview of the project and an in depth explanation of what goes into it, how you can contribute, etc.

Yeah, if only we had something like that...

If only it was posted prominently on a big website of CAP Project information...