Wall Breaker Guide Revamp

[mtr]

I'll put the hyperlinks in a bit, don't upload till I have them in there. :)

EDIT: Done with that.

Direct Countering:

Commonly Seen Choiced Attackers:
Kyogre, Scizor, Palkia, Dialga

Commonly Seen Boosting Attackers:
Rayquaza, Kyogre, Mewtwo, Darkrai

Commonly Seen Mixed Attackers:
Palkia, Rayquaza, Dialga


Indirect Countering:

Commonly Seen Ability Trappers:
Wobbuffet

Wobbuffet deserves a special mention for his ability to turn walls into setup bait for sweepers such as Rayquaza with Encore, along with the Tickle strategy, in which a wall is Encored, Tickled repeatedly, and then hit with Pursuit by a Pseudo-trapper.

Commonly Seen Pseudo-Trappers:
Tyranitar, Scizor, Metagross

Commonly Seen Taunters:
Deoxys-S, Mewtwo, Mew, Darkrai

Commonly Seen Trickers:
Mewtwo

Commonly Seen Exploders:
Mew, Mewtwo, Metagross

[Xia]

Thank you mtr12, I've added these to the OP. New OU and UU analyses have been added as well.

After thinking it over, I've decided that I will not include analyses for the wall breakers mtr12 and I list. The walls were only expanded upon so that there weaknesses can be further understood, which was the point of this article - wall breaking deals with walls and strategies to overcome them, not with individual Pokemon who use these strategies.

[mtr]

Cool.

So then have we decided that we are going to discuss wall combos? If we decide to do this, then it's worth noting that in regards to Ubers, every wallish Ubers team automatically contains Groudon, Forretress, and Blissey. The choice between Latias+Giratina or Palkia+Giratina-O is what distinguishes Classical Stall from Modern Stall. So if we decide to do wall comboes, I'll write a section on stall team structure instead, and how to go about dealing with the two archetypes, Classical and Modern. Basically, more advanced, holistic wall-breaking strategies.

EDIT: This is my actual 500th post, I guess. Halfway to 1K!

[Witnessed]

Good guide Xia, just one thing I noticed.

Vaporeon
Defenses: 130 / 60 / 95
Wall Sets: Standard Wish Support, Baton Pass

Vaporeon is lacking a description, unless you did not want it to have a description. Also, I think you should take "Baton Pass" out of it. It does have Acid Armor in the BP set, but it's not supposed to "wall" on a BP chain.

[Xia]

Post to point out the inclusion of a new section

[locopoke]

im too lazy to scroll through replies to see if somebody mentioned this already, but i guess if somebody had mentioned it then you would have already fixed it. anyway why is jirachi not mentioned under choiced attackers or choiced trickers? latias also needs to be mentioned under choice attackers. i find it odd how you'd add starmie to that section before jirachi or latias.. also shedinja isn't a wall in ubers. and

Dialga
Defenses: 100 / 120 / 100
Wall Sets: Supporter, Bulk Up

BU Dialga isn't a wall, it's a boosting sweeper. Support dialga isn't really a wall either, it just sets up rocks

[Xia]

Thank you locopoke, I'll make a note of the Pokemon to add, though mtr12 is in charge of all Ubers and I refuse to step into his boundaries without consulting with him first. Once we talk, I'll edit/not edit your Ubers suggestions. =]

[mtr]

Actually, I was hoping someone would comment on that. I myself had reservations about listing Dialga as a wall. This goes back to what I said about having strict or loose definitions of a wall. Dialga is usually played (ignoring the scarfers) as a defensive supporter, and I was unsure if it was necessary, so I put it down anyways.

Still, if you call Crocune a wall, then BU Dialga, playing very similarly, should be one as well. It's a matter of definition. Let me know what you guys think, and we can delete the unnecessary stuff.

So if we are going to go with a constructionist definition of a wall, here's what we should have...

For sure:
Lugia
Giratina
Blissey

Maybe:
Latias? (usually played like a tank, not a wall)
Skarmory? (rarely seen)
Groudon? (no recovery outside Lefties and Wish)
Dialga? (if we put in Crocune, then BU Dialga might be a wall, because it can technically wall ScarfOgre and countersetup against the mono-attacker as well.)

The rest of the Pokemon do not really qualify for a constructionist definition of being a wall (high stats, instant recovery).

I included Shedinja because although it's not played as a wall, it can act like one with its ability to wall common attack comboes, like those employed by Kyogre and some Palkia.

@Xia: Congrats on your badge!


EDIT: I actually have another idea: why don't we separate a section for specialized walls (ie: Lugia) and for tanks (Groudon)? It might be worth considering.

[locopoke]

CroCune is not a wall, it's a boosting sweeper. BU Dialga is not a wall.. it's a boosting sweeper. Just because it's very bulky does not mean it is a wall. Groudon can be considered a wall since there are many physical sweepers that it stops, but only with a very defensive set. Skarmory would be considered a wall, and so would latias I guess, since it's usually used to stop Kyogre.

[bojangles**]

Ok things in the Ubers sections.

Lugia - Lugia should not really be switching into groudon until you are entirely sure as to what set it is running. If Groudon can paralyze or poison Lugia, Lugia will be pretty much crippled for the entire match. Groudon can also do a huge amount of damage with a +2 Stone Edge or Earthquake (if Lugia Roosts). Also, Tyranitar is probably the biggest threat to Lugia, as it should be noted as such. First of all, it can totally decimate Lugia with a CB Crunch or Stone Edge, while Lugia's Ice Beam does about 10% damage. Then theres the DD + Taunt set, and tyranitar can Taunt lugia to stop it from poisoning it or setting up Reflect or WWing it. Then it can DD up and sweep. also, its false to say that Lugia can deal with Kyogre. Kyogre can pretty much laugh at Lugia, since it can smack Lugia around with Water Spout (337.5 BP factoring in rain and STAB, not even Specs) or Surf (213.75 BP). In return, Lugia can only do 32% to with a +6 Ice Beam, which Lugia won't get on a wall set, since it won't have CM.

Giratina - Don't let Giratina take any of Kyogre's Choiced Water Spouts or Surfs. Latias takes about 50% from them (water spouts), and keep in mind that it invests in Special Defense, has higher base Special Defense, and has Soul Dew.

Latias - Tyranitar has to watch out for Grass Knots from Latias, because it will take a hefty sum of damage.

Dialga - as locopoke has said, BU is not a wall, its a boosting sweeper. This is not a wall in the same way that CM Restalk Kyogre is not a wall. Supporter is not really a wall either, because its main purpose is really just to get the rocks up. Furthermore, Dialga is not a good counter to Scizor, since Scizor can do large amounts of damage to Dialga with Superpower.

Blissey - do not let Blissey try to wall mixed attackers. Mixed attackers, like Palkia, Dialga, and Rayquaza, often can Outrage or Brick Break which will both do massive damage to Blissey.

Shedinja - First of all, I sort of disagree with the first sentence. Shedinja does have intrinsic value, in that it is the only pokemon in the game with Wonderguard. however, you still have to make people aware that you pretty much must build a whole team around shedinja. Also, don't say that Swords Dance Rayquaza is walled by sheddy, since most will carry either Fire Blast or Overheat. More often than not, shedinja will not be worth building a team around anyway.

Add Garchomp to the Commonly Choiced section.

Add Darkrai and maybe even Gengar to the Commonly seen Trickers.

[mtr]

@Ibojangles:

Lugia: I already noted Tyranitar as a Lugia check, but I will have it emphasized. As for Kyogre, Light Screen + Toxic combined with high SDef can be a pain, but I'll mention Kyogre if I haven't already.

Giratina: IIRC, A Choice Specs Surf is a 4HKO with Leftovers recovery, so it can be Pressure stalled, but I'll remove it from the section, because it becomes risky with entry hazards on the field.

Latias: Good point.

Dialga: Then it should be removed. Still, most Scizor use U-turn all the time, and something with a U-turn and Stealth Rock resist, along with excellent typing and great versatility to potentially confuse the opponent, can be handy as a Scizor counter. In OU play, Magnezone and Heatran are excellent Scizor checks even with the Superpower weakness. Also, Superpower makes you setup bait for stuff like Mewtwo or Forretress, making it even riskier.

Blissey: in the Sun, it can take Aqua Tail, but that's about it. But against mixed attackers, it's a game of prediction anyways, so you may have to keep it in.

Shedinja: What I meant is apparent by looking at OU, where Shedinja is worthless because of Stealth Rock, Sandstorm, and all the Fire attacks that are around because of the presence of Steels. Shedinja gains value in Ubers because all these things have less of a presence. The SDRay thing was a bit of a mistake. I think I was caught up in assuming that many Rays used Earthquake.

Garchomp: Adding

Darkrai: But it rarely uses Trick. Almost every set I've seen is a SubPlot. Still, it should probably go in.

Thank you.

[Xia]

Originally Posted by Fat mtr12

@Xia: Congrats on your badge!


EDIT: I actually have another idea: why don't we separate a section for specialized walls (ie: Lugia) and for tanks (Groudon)? It might be worth considering.

Thanks. =]

I would shy away from doing this, though if it is in the interest of those above us (aka mods), I would be happy to. My only objection is the fact that this guide is for defeating walls, not defensive Pokemon.

EDIT: So everyone understands, the OP now only lists Pokemon who are walls, not boosters or tanks. It's very black-and-white now, though the analyses previously part of the guide can still be edited back in if there is enough support for them.

Pokemon excluded: Donphan, Suicune, Forretress, Dialga, Shedinja, Deoxys-D

[tripe]

I'd like to add Giratina-O to the list of common mixed attackers and common boosting attackers. Giratina-O may not do as well as other mixed attackers, but does boost longevity unlike most other sweepers, thanks to Grisseious orb and higher defenses. It's substitute calm mind set does tear a few holes, and the mixed set is excellent for disposing of Blissey and friends rather easily. Stall can't rely on life orb recoil to dispose of Giratina-O, thanks to no recoil on Grissesious orb.

[mtr]

Not to mention that Gira-O is immune to Toxic Spikes, which is huge.

Giratina-O

Also, how the hell did we miss Salamence as a mixed attacker (joshe told me about this on IRC)?

Salamence

[Xia]

Alright, all stuff above this post has been added.

[mtr]

I've had more fun discussing the Ubers sections of the guide on #Ubers...

Kingdra, bizarrely enough, has made its way into the top 25 of Ubers. Therefore, it is considered to be a common Mixed Sweeper.

Kingdra

Tyranitar uses Dragon Dance enough to be considered a Boosting Attacker (though IMO, stall rarely is bothered by it due to Groudon and the scarfed revenge killer). Still, it should be included.

Tyranitar

Lucario usage in Ubers has skyrocketed after Theorymon's recent team. Therefore, it should be included under Boosting Attackers.

Lucario

I'm also probably going to rewrite Blissey sometime, as the second paragraph is a bit unsatisfactory.

[Xia]

Sounds good, additions made.

[Exarius]

just a nitpick (dunno if stated earlier):

in UU walls, you say that Chansey has 5 base defense. In indirect strategies, at trapping part, you say Chansey has 10 base def.

Othervise looks good (haven't read all yet though)

[VirtualKaraokeCircusAct]

Three minor nitpicks all from the first section on ou walls:

Swampert falls under the category of bulky Water, alongside Suicune, Vaporeon, and many other Water-types. The advantages Swampert has over its like-minded relatives, though, lie in its support movepool an dimmunity to Electric-type attacks, thanks to its partial Ground-typing. Stealth Rock and Roar combine to force your opponent to switch out and receive damage all at once, while Earthquake, Surf, Ice Beam, and a multitude of offensive attacks can be used to pick off the weakened foes that are dragged out.

Bronzong lacks a reliable recovery move outside of Rest; meaning repeated attacks will eventually bring it down. Thanks to his low Speed stat, many Pokemon can come in and attack without fearing Gyro Ball’s damage, such as Choice Specs Heatran and Life Orb Infernape. (I don't really see what you mean here, are you saying that pokemon will not fear his gyro ball because they oko him first?)

Few people take into account the walling capabilities Latias posses, focusing rather on its stellar Special Attack and Speed. Latias's true power lies in its ability to boost its already huge Special Defense stat via Calm MInd, and receive instant recovery from the move Recover. Light Screen and Reflect are also moves available to Latias, stopping sweepers cold and buying Latias enough time to tear own its opposition with STAB Dragon Pulse or Surf.

I will continue reading at some point, might edit with more nitpicks. Interesting so far.

Edit: It might be useful to add the speed of the walls in the "know your walls" section.

[Abacus]

I believe that resttalk Rotom-a should be listed as a wall.

[Xia]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr.Dreavus

Three minor nitpicks all from the first section on ou walls:

I will continue reading at some point, might edit with more nitpicks. Interesting so far.

Edit: It might be useful to add the speed of the walls in the "know your walls" section.

I've added in the nitpicks you found, though I'm going to refrain from listing the Speed stats, since there are links to each wall; defenses were listed as a quick reference and to keep the article informative, but not in depth.

Originally Posted by Fat Abacus

I believe that resttalk Rotom-a should be listed as a wall.

I didn't list this Pokemon for the sole reason that it's not meant to be a wall, it's more or less just a staller. Since stall =/= wall (see some of the previous posts for clarification if you're still not sure why), Pokemon such as RestTalk Rotom-A, Suicune, and others like them have been excluded.

EDIT: All mentions of Roserade in UU have been edited out.

[Steinhauser]

I believe Donphan and Clefable deserve mention in UU.

Donphan is by far the most popular bulky Ground now, and can sponge at least two hits from most physical attackers it isn't weak to, phazing or hitting hard with its potent base 120 Atk.

Clefable doesn't wall quite as well as Chansey, but it also isn't setup fodder, ruining setup sweepers, supporters, RestTalkers and SubPunchers with Encore. Unlike Chansey it can also be EV'd to tank moderate physical hits. Its unpredictability also sets it apart.

[Xia]

The OP has been updated with some new changes.

If no one objects, I will post the HTMLized guide some time tomorrow.