CAP 9 - Concept Submissions

[Plus]

Welcome to the opening of CAP 9! This thread is solely dedicated to discussing and submitting the goals and concepts of our Pokemon. This thread will serve as one which dictates the overall direction of our project, so be careful what you wish for. Do not post anything irrelevant, or anything that does not encourage the discussion of submitted concepts in this thread.

Rules for Submitting a Concept:

• One submission per person. Editing your concept is allowed; however, you may not delete your concept and post a new one, or change the entire idea of your concept. Furthermore, do not bump your concept. A good concept will receive attention from myself and others. The silence IS your feedback.

• Do not duplicate or closely-resemble Concepts already posted by others. Please read all of the concepts submitted prior to posting. "I didn't think it was the same", or "I was too lazy to read" are not excuses. Just read the thread.

• Specific Pokemon types or type combos cannot be included or excluded in a Concept. This pokemon would, should, have a Fire/Dragon typing -- don't give me this. That is not a concept, it is simply a typing. A good concept can be interpreted in many ways, yet still giving a general direction as to where it will go. Examples of this include:

  "This is a Dragon pokemon with..."
  "The pokemon should be immune to Ghost attacks..."
  "The pokemon should have at least 7 resistances..."
  "The pokemon should get STAB on Thunderbolt.."

• Specific Abilities are not allowed. Again, an ability is not a concept. Anything that would be made impossible without having a certain ability is also illegal.

  "This pokemon should have a defensive ability like Intimidate or Marvel Scale..."
  "This pokemon has an ability that steals the opponent's held item..."
  "When this pokemon is switched in, all weather conditions are nullified..."

• Movepools or lists of moves are not allowed. Don't poll jump here, people. An ability is not a concept, a typing is not a concept. It makes sense that a movepool is not a concept either. While you may still base your concept off of one move, such as "Rapid Spin User" or "Gravity Pokemon", I will not tolerate a list.

• Specific stat bias, base stats, or base stat ratings are not allowed. A general description of the pokemon is allowed. "Fast", "bulky", "strong", are allowed, since it does not necessarily dictate a spread. While a concept can suggest the pokemon being any of these characteristics, do not say that it should be, or needs to be.

• Indications of Physical/Special bias are discouraged. I want these concepts to be interpreted by the whole community. Try not to have any givens for your particular concepts.

• Do not refer to any part of the pokemon's artistic design. Usually this does not happen, but it obviously isn't tolerated either. For example, the following phrases would be illegal:

  "This is a bright blue pokemon..."
  "The pokemon looks like a..."
  "The pokemon uses its long tail to..."

• A Concept Submission must have a Name, General Description, Justification and Explanation. Submit concepts in the form shown below. No matter how good your concept is, it is not valid unless it is submitted in the following method.

Concept Submission Format:
Use the format, please. Inability to do so will result in moderation and/or possible ineligibility for it to be included in the poll.

Originally Posted by Fat Format

Name: (short name)
General Description: (See rules below. No more than a sentence or two here.)
Justification: (See rules below.)
Questions to be Answered: (See rules below.)
Explanation: (Whatever you want to say here.)

• Name - Give me the name, and give it to me straightforward. It's not my job to interpret what goes around in your head, it's only my job to know what you want and give you advice. If you can't give it a straightforward name, I don't like your concept. Simple as that.

• Description - What's your concept? Don't give me a giant wall of text here. I simply would like to know what it does. That's it.

• Justification - A few sentences describing how the concept satisfies one or more of the following shown below. However, please note that I prefer something that allows us to learn about the metagame. While I do enjoy positive effects on the metagame as well as new niches, the goal of CAP is to learn. As far as I'm concerned, we haven't learned much from these past CAPs. Anyways, make sure that your concept satisfies at least one of these:
  • Has a positive effect on the metagame (e.g Fidgit’s Pure Utility)
  • Allows us to learn more about the metagame (e.g Kitsunoh’s Ultimate Scout)
  • Introduces a new niche in the metagame (such as Arghonaut’s Decentralizer)

• Questions To Be Answered - The purpose of the CAP project is to learn new things about the metagame, and each concept submission is a proposed "experiment". List out a few interesting competitive questions that should be answered after properly implementing your concept. At the conclusion of the CAP project, these questions will be revisited to see how well we implemented the concept. If your questions are not significant, relevant to your Justification, and well-written -- then your concept will be rejected.

• Explanation - Explain the concept. You told me what it does already, so now elaborate. I'll give you leeway here, so go wild. "This pokemon could get ____", "this pokemon should be able to", "this pokemon would do _____" are all fine. Two things, though! Don't say that a pokemon NEEDS something. Notice how the examples above do not dictate a certain part of its creation, rather suggests. Additionally, remember that the explanation part of your submission is simply to promote discussion. It will not be shown anywhere else but here.

Here's an example of a legal concept. It's definitely not what I am looking for, but it's definitely legal.

Concept: "Kingdra of the Sun"

From the concept name, I can see that Kingdra of the Sun refers to a sweeper that can function in the sun, just like Kingdra in rain.


Description: A good pokemon with a varied movepool under normal conditions. But, it becomes a dangerous sweeping force in sunny weather.


The description is short and precise. The description tells me that Kingdra of the Sun is supposed to be decent under normal conditions, but becomes great under the sun.


Justification: Sunny Day is almost never used in the current metagame. This concept could make Sun teams playable in OU, much like Kingdra almost single-handedly makes Rain teams viable in OU. We will learn more about sunny weather battling strategies in OU, and the pokemon that can use sun to their advantage.


The justification tells me that this concept would help us learn more about underused strategies such as sun in OU, which fills the requirements of "Learning about the Metagame".


Questions To Be Answered:

• Are sun teams more viable with "Kingdra of the Sun" in OU?
• Which battle strategies are most effective and least effective using sun in OU?
• Which OU pokemon can best use sun to their advantage?
• Which lesser-used pokemon become relevant with "Kingdra of the Sun" in OU?
• Is "Kingdra of the Sun" viable in OU under normal weather conditions?

These are effective questions that can be answered after the project is over. They are relevant to the justification since these questions overall ask if we learned anything from the metagame.

Explanation: A good Sunny Day abuser would be fresh and fun. Typing could be just about anything, although Fire and/or Grass are the most obvious. Water typing might be interesting to help it stop Heatran from becoming even more of a beast once the Sun goes up, and ruining the fun for this pokemon. Chlorophyll would be an easy way to make a good sweeper, but Solar Power doesn't get the love it should, and might be an interesting option. There are lots of nice abilities that could help this thing do its job. I think fiery art designs are always cool and I can imagine this pokemon having lots of colorful fire effects, if we make it part Fire.

The explanation has everything illegal in a concept, which is perfectly fine. The "colorful fire effects", the suggested abilities and types are all in the explanation.

Legal Concepts from Past Projects

• "Pure Utility Pokemon"
• "Anti-Ghost Rapid Spinner"
• "True Garchomp Counter"
• "Great Lead Pokemon"
• "Ultimate Weather Abuser"
• "Status Counter"

Illegal Concepts from Past Projects

• "Ice-Resisting Dragon"
• "Super Luck User"
• "STAB Explosion Glass Cannon"
• "Auto-Stealth Rock Remover"
• "A Pokemon with Special Intimidate"
• "Pyrokinetic Pokemon (Fire/Psychic)"
• "Special Guts"
• "Typing Means Nothing"

What do I want?

Simply put, I want to ask you the following question before you rush into your concept.

What do you want to learn?

The reason I ask you this is simple. CAP, in my opinion, has been lacking in what the real purpose of the project is.

"The Create-A-Pokémon project is a community dedicated to exploring and understanding the competitive Pokémon metagame by designing, creating, and playtesting new Pokémon concepts."

I could ask you what a tank is, what a mixed sweeper is, or what a wall is. Let's say I asked that to about 40 of you. What would I get? I'd get 40 textbook definitions. Let's break the mold a bit. I'm sure you've wondered what it would be like when a pokemon got a certain move, and how it would affect the metagame. That's the mindset I want for this project. How would something affect the metagame, and what would we learn as a lesson?

To fulfill this, I urge you to acknowledge the line between gimmick and competitive. I'd strongly suggest you analyze the metagame carefully before you make a concept like "Rollout Abuser". What will you learn from it? You'll learn that it sucks because you are stuck in a move and you can't escape. Have fun getting swept by a Swords Dance Lucario. So please, try to think a bit about how it would work competitively before you submit a concept!

Above all else, I encourage you to have fun and be fresh. Try not to reuse old concepts, please. Make it fun, make it interesting, and most importantly, make it so that everyone can learn a little something about Pokemon.

If you have questions concerning your concept, feel free to ask!

Happy concept making!

[KnightoftheWind]

Name: Helping the Underdog
Description: A Pokemon that can directly or indirectly make a little used Pokemon more viable.
Justification: There are many OU Pokemon that are left out in the cold in favour of Pokemon with better bulk and/or typing. This Pokemon can add variety to the OU metagame, and we can learn more about ways to support little used Pokemon or cause metagame shifts.
Questions to be Answered:

• Was the little used Pokemon more viable?
• What strategies and supporting Pokemon helped reinforce the underdog and/or the CAP?
• Did any other Pokemon become less viable?
• Is the CAP viable in a metagame without the underdog?

Explanation: There are essentially two directions this CAP can go. The first way is directly supporting the underdog. Here, the CAP has good offensive and/or defensive synergy with the underdog. It should be able to beat the Pokemon that threaten the underdog and vice versa, and resist all the the CAP weaknesses and vice versa. The other way is indirecting supporting the underdog. Essentially, the CAP will cause a metagame shift, having the end result in a increase in the underdogs usuage. An example of a Pokemon that has done this before is Garchomp. When it was OU, it caused a rise in Cresselia to beat, therefore Heracross usage was high to beat Cresselia. Once Garchomp was banned, Cresselia usage declined, and so did Heracross usage. The underdog that should be helped mustn't be an underdog because it is outclassed, otherwise the CAP will help the superior Pokemon as well. For example, the CAP shouldn't attempt to help Dragonite, as it will more often help Salamence as well. Rather, the CAP should help a more unique Pokemon. An example is Umbreon, as it is the only Mean Look passer in OU, but it isn't used often due to the fact that it is countered by Scizor, Lucario and Machamp, which are all commonly used OU Pokemon.

[Numbuh 214]

Name: Simply Gimmicky

General Description: A Pokémon that is outclassed at doing common jobs (sweeper, tank, and support) but excels in taking advantage of underutilized or "gimmicky" moves.

Justification: People say that moves like Me First and Copycat "fail" and are "a waste of Gamefreak's time" (these are not direct quotes; merely generalization). I say, "Let's put our money where our mouths are." It will also allow us to learn more about the metagame by learning what merits there are in these untouched moves and seeing whether they truly do "fail" or not; after all, a move/ability/item does not "fail" just because it doesn't have a Pokémon that can use it, as we've learned with Dynamicpunch.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Which moves are situational or "gimmicky"?
• Do any of these moves work differently in-game?
• What would the most ideal use of each move be?
• Would these moves work on a Pokémon with stats to make use of them?

Explanation: So yeah, I finally got into this Concept Submission craziness; imagine that. I had this idea between Kit and Cyclohm, but Lightning Storm submitted too similar of a concept first (kudos to him/her for having more nerve than I did). But did it ever occur to anyone that these moves are only "unloved" and not "bad"? For example, Me First is only even REMOTELY useable on Lucario, with respectable stats in both attack stats and decent speed (which can both be boosted by Agility and Steadfast); but even though it has moments (which I have recorded in a sort of "Log of Epicness") Lucario cannot use this move as effectively as it would like to (as my battle records prove). Also, this is a bit more of a personal standpoint, but there are a few bugs in these "gimmick" moves that could serve to benefit other Pokémon when they get fixed (like Imprison/SR Uxie screwing over slower leads in-game, but not in Shoddy), and creating this Pokémon could kill two Staravias with one Rock Slide, so to speak. *pelted by garbage for ruining a good idiom*

Anyways… a good (but possibly broken) example of this would be a speedy Pokemon that can use Imprison and Transform; the Imprison then blocks everything they attempt, forcing them to Struggle or switch out.

[cyberzero]

Name: Leave a Legacy

Description: A Pokemon that cannot be directly countered but forces the opponent to think around it because after it faints, there may be other consequences.

Justification: This is also a good way to learn about how underused abilities and moves such as those mentioned in the explanation can affect the metagame. All of the CAP Pokemon that we've created so far have SOME type of longevity, but this would allow us to test how a quick come-in-do-something-and-die Pokemon would work.

Questions To Be Answered:
- Can a Pokemon be a successful "suicider" without purposely using Explosion or Selfdestruct?
- How much can a hit-and-run Pokemon affect CAP, rather of all the bulky or offensive Pokemon we have built?
- How does one react when one knows what a Pokemon is going to do, but not what the effects are going to be?
- Will players consider it worth it to use a slot on their team for a Pokemon that may potentially not be in play very long?
- How can one check or counter a Pokemon that will inevitably "go to hell and bring you with it", one way or another?

Explanation: By means of abilities such as Unburden, Aftermath, or possibly a custom ability, moves such as Memento, Lunar Dance, Explosion, Selfdestruct, Healing Wish, a custom move, or a combination of such. This is NOT meant to be a good suicide lead, but do a very similar thing midgame or lategame. For example, if the Pokemon has Aftermath as an ability and in a game, your opponent's lategame sweeper is on a roll, you might be able to use Memento, lowering both attack stats AND leaving him with 25% less HP. This way, it gives you another chance to end his sweep as well as a chance to start your own. The opponent would not be able to outright go and attack the Pokemon because of these consequences, requiring more thinking on his part, but in order to use this, you must know what you're doing.

[hydrolphin]

Name: The Anti-Stall

Description: A pokemon that can deal with all of stall's tricks, as well as take down some of stall's main threats.

Justification: Stall is currently a dominant playstyle. An anti-stall pokemon would not only diversify the metagame, but we could also learn about why stall is so dominant and how to beat it.

Questions for The Anti-Stall:

1. Can there be a surefire way to cripple multiple members of a stall team efficiently?
2. Can stall still be as useful if there is a great way to beat it?
3. What new ideas will stall use to beat an "Anti-Stall?" Would stalling Trickers be more useful? Would stall have to make some sacrifices to beat said "anti-stall."
4. If stall is not as great of a playstyle, what else becomes more useful? Does anything become overpowering?

Explanation: A stall team is abot as reliable as it gets. While SkarmBliss may not be what it used to be, stall has a pleathora of options to work with: SR, TS, Spikes, Sandstorm, TrickScarfing, Phazing, Perish Song, Wish, Spinners, Spin blockers, etc. Infernape and Salamence are considered to be the best wall-breakers in OU. But Infernape loses to both Latias and Tentacruel and MixMence can't handle all the passive damage from SR, SS, LO, and possibly even a WoW from Rotom. Infact, mence takes 31% on the switch from SR and SS alone. If it attacks, then it loses another 16%, meaning its almost half gone after one attack, and this is if it doesn't get hit at all. Trick is another thing that helps beat stall. But, trick can only beat a single wall, not a team. And even then, it is possible to work around it. For example, a Bliss on a stall team gets Tricked a scarf. The scarf may limit its use but it walls special attacks almost as good (It just misses those Lefties). It can still switch in on a T-Bolt, absorb it, Softboiled on the switch and flee, and Trick does very little to stop that. This is why, I think we need a great stall counter.

Stuff it could use: Obviously, Magic Guard would be the most powerful, but many people would be against it. We could give it Poison Heal to take out TS (or Poison or Steel typing), Mountaneer to deal with SR, or even Scrappy to deal with those pesky Rotom-A's running around. As for moves, it could use just about anything as long as it provided good coverage and could hit from both sides of the spectrum (I'm liking T-Bolt+Physical Fighting+Crunch or somthing along those lines). Supporting ideas could include Pursuit to scare Bliss and Rotom, Taunt to force some switches, or Leech Seed to heal AND deal consistant damage.

Why you should vote for this: This concept has two great characteristics-
1. It is structured enough to where we know where we're going.
2. It is open enough so people can mold it into something great.


TL;DR- Its a good concept, so vote for it.

Edit in response to Plus: While you make some very good points (the trick one led me to address in this edit), I still think this concept offers something to learn. Neither CBTar nor Mixmence can beat a competent players stall team. TTar loses to Hippo if it lacks Aqua Tail, which isn't even a sure 2HKO against the standard set. Mixmence also can't OHKO standard Hippo with Draco Meteor, dealing a max of 95.48%. While that is great damage and hippo is esentially dead, Mixmence takes another 16% damage from SS/LO, plus whatever attack it has to eat, like an Ice Fang. It is certainly not a vounter, but Hippowdon will likely beat mixmence 1-on-1. And thats just Hippo; a stall team also has 5 other competent team members. If you rely on Mixmence to destroy stall, you can easily get burned.

Stall is difficult to beat, and we could definately learn a lot from making a counter to it. The current OU has ways to beat stall, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't learn from finding a way that is much more difficult to circumvent unlike the current counters.

[Plus]

First off, this concept submission form is illegal. Please read the OP more clearly, as you need a questions to be answered section.

Originally Posted by Fat Numbuh 214

Name: Simply Gimmicky

General Description: A Pokémon that is outclassed at doing common jobs (sweeper, tank, and support) but excels in taking advantage of underutilized or "gimmicky" moves.

A pokemon generally has three classes in which it excels: offensively, defensively, or support. If it does not excel at any of these, we can assume that you want it to be bad stat wise, or have a terrible movepool. Furthermore, you're telling me that it uses underutilized or gimmicky moves, neither which are used because they either a) suck on bad pokemon, or b) are overall bad moves which are outclassed.

If it does not excel offensively, defensively, and support wise and can only be used for gimmicks, which ARE gimmicks since they are not viable, I don't see the point.

Justification: People say that moves like Me First and Copycat "fail" and are "a waste of Gamefreak's time" (these are not direct quotes; merely generalization). I say, "Let's put our money where our mouths are." It will also allow us to learn more about the metagame by learning what merits there are in these untouched moves and seeing whether they truly do "fail" or not; after all, a move/ability/item does not "fail" just because it doesn't have a Pokémon that can use it, as we've learned with Dynamicpunch.

Me First and Copycat are pretty bad because you rely on the opponent to have x move to perform y reliably. I am not sure if you are aware that certain moves/abilities/items "fail" because they do not have a good userbase of said move or ability (as shown by Cyclohm's neglected ability), which is imo the only justification for this concept if you're using a pokemon that is outclassed in everything else. Moves suck simply because they suck -- and I don't see any proof otherwise.

Explanation:

So yeah, I finally got into this Concept Submission craziness; imagine that. I had this idea between Kit and Cyclohm, but Lightning Storm submitted too similar of a concept first (kudos to him/her for having more nerve than I did). But did it ever occur to anyone that these moves are only "unloved" and not "bad"?

I've never seen Me First or Copycat used with success on the ladder. Rather than playing under the impression to find something useful under a pile of shit, I'd really just suggest you analyze the metagame and find what works. If it's under said pile of shit, it's simply unloved and not bad.[

Furthermore I'd like to point out that I am not looking for gimmicks in this thread, please read the OP.

For example, Me First is only even REMOTELY useable on Lucario, with respectable stats in both attack stats and decent speed (which can both be boosted by Agility and Steadfast); but even though it has moments (which I have recorded in a sort of "Log of Epicness") Lucario cannot use this move as effectively as it would like to (as my battle records prove). Also, this is a bit more of a personal standpoint, but there are a few bugs in these "gimmick" moves that could serve to benefit other Pokémon when they get fixed (like Imprison/SR Uxie screwing over slower leads in-game, but not in Shoddy), and creating this Pokémon could kill two Staravias with one Rock Slide, so to speak. *pelted by garbage for ruining a good idiom*

Can somebody justify this? I've never seen anyone but you who has used Me First Lucario, and I've never seen it used successfully. I don't want to see cherrypicked stuff either -- I'd like to see a series of ladders or battles to see how well it performs.

Anyways… a good (but possibly broken) example of this would be a speedy Pokemon that can use Imprison and Transform; the Imprison then blocks everything they attempt, forcing them to Struggle or switch out.

That seems very situational. I really don't like the concept, =/.

Gimmicks are gimmicks because they don't work, that's that. If they are "unloved", they simply have a bad userbase of the move. And what exactly do we learn from this? Pokemon with underused yet good moves/abilities with good stats are good? Or do we learn that gimmicks suck?

[Plus]

Anyways, here are some more thoughts on these concepts.

Anti Stall

I don't see much we can learn from this concept that we couldn't from standard OU. Trick, Mixed Sweepers, general forms of offense work to beat stall.

Stall functions because of the fact that pokemon can be walled by other pokemon. Stall is played on the premise that you can basically counter or wall most of the threats in OU. You don't need a CAP to learn that.

Questions for The Anti-Stall:

1. Can there be a surefire way to cripple a stall team?

Trick is effective in crippling stall teams. Offensive power such as a Draco Meteor from Mixmence or a hefty Crunch/Stone Edge from a CBTar are examples.

2. Can stall still be useful if there is a great way to beat it?

Unless you find a way to beat all the walls in the game, of course it still can be useful.

3. What new ideas will stall use to beat an "Anti-Stall"

X pokemon beats Y pokemon with move.

Helping the Underdog

How do you plan on helping an underdog of the metagame which does not help an overused pokemon more? For example, if Jirachi was a great partner to Altaria, chances are that Jirachi is a great partner to Dragonite or Salamence, which detracts from your concept.

What would you like to learn from this concept, exactly?

[SgtWoodsy]

Name: Let Them Eat Berries
Description: A Pokémon that, while can function well enough without, really excels when using a pinch berry.

Justification: Pinch berries are (in my personal opinion) a sadly underused part of the metagame. I would like to see a Pokémon made that can effectively use the berries in this hostile environment, and, through that, add diversity and teach us more about the metagame, and to see just how well pinch berries work.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Are pinch berries "gimmicky", or can they be used as a useful alternative to other offensive/defensive items?
• How would a pinch berry-centric Pokémon avoid the many pitfalls of such an item in today's metagame?
• In what way would a pinch berry-centric Pokémon affect the metagame (eg. would moves like Bug Bite and Pluck become more viable?)

Explanation: One does not necessarily have to think Gluttony is the ability of choice on a Pokémon like this. Other perfectly usable abilities include Unburden, Simple, or even Magic Guard, if we decided to take that route. The Pokémon itself does not have to be a sweeper of some sort, as there are all sorts of weird and wonderful ideas we can go with (such as a priority wall, for instance.)

[moi]

Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?

- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?

~ How much of an affect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?

Explanation: While not always being a "specific" strategy, the use of these moves is always a commonplace sight in any metagame. Depending on which moves this Pokémon can tackle, it can perform a role on any team, and be used to check a variety of threats. This Pokémon could use anything, from typing (Steel and Poison are immune to Toxic, Fire-types are immune to Will-o-Wisp), to abilities (Insomnia avoids sleep, Sticky Hold stops Trick), to moves (Magic Coat can stop things like Leech Seed and Status). While being able to remove a good number of moves from their purpose, it manages to remain open enough as to what you'd like to do and should be stressed that it should not try and stop all types of non damaging moves.

[Numbuh 214]

Originally Posted by Fat Plus

First off, this concept submission form is illegal. Please read the OP more clearly, as you need a questions to be answered section.

Added, kthx.

A pokemon generally has three classes in which it excels: offensively, defensively, or support. If it does not excel at any of these, we can assume that you want it to be bad stat wise, or have a terrible movepool. Furthermore, you're telling me that it uses underutilized or gimmicky moves, neither which are used because they either a) suck on bad pokemon, or b) are overall bad moves which are outclassed.

Never said they had to suck, it's just I want the "gimmicks" to shine through as "Wow, this can actually work on X Pokémon", and very few people (myself included, obv) would give a second thought to Me First or Copycat on something like Azelf.

If it does not excel offensively, defensively, and support wise and can only be used for gimmicks, which ARE gimmicks since they are not viable, I don't see the point.

Well, the stats could be... oh, I don't know maybe sorta balanced.

Me First and Copycat are pretty bad because you rely on the opponent to have x move to perform y reliably. I am not sure if you are aware that certain moves/abilities/items "fail" because they do not have a good userbase of said move or ability (as shown by Cyclohm's neglected ability), which is imo the only justification for this concept if you're using a pokemon that is outclassed in everything else. Moves suck simply because they suck -- and I don't see any proof otherwise.

I bet you'd have laughed last gen if I had said one Pokémon would be able to use Dynamicpunch effectively now.

I've never seen Me First or Copycat used with success on the ladder. Rather than playing under the impression to find something useful under a pile of shit, I'd really just suggest you analyze the metagame and find what works. If it's under said pile of shit, it's simply unloved and not bad.

Not disagreeing with the first sentence, but look at Shield Dust; only on two Pokémon that failed to find a niche in even the NU ladder, but Cyclohm makes good use of it. I also never expected Static to be anything other than filler on it, as a matter of fact.

Furthermore I'd like to point out that I am not looking for gimmicks in this thread, please read the OP.

Well, if you insist, I'll retract my idea, but let me defend it before I do so.

Can somebody justify this? I've never seen anyone but you who has used Me First Lucario, and I've never seen it used successfully. I don't want to see cherrypicked stuff either -- I'd like to see a series of ladders or battles to see how well it performs.

Never said it was successful and that's my point; could there be a Pokémon that can use moves like Me First or Copycat to their advantage?

That seems very situational. I really don't like the concept, =/.

Neither does tennis, and I respect your right to not like it.

Gimmicks are gimmicks because they don't work, that's that. If they are "unloved", they simply have a bad userbase of the move. And what exactly do we learn from this? Pokemon with underused yet good moves/abilities with good stats are good? Or do we learn that gimmicks suck?

Well if they truly do, we learn from that; if they don't, we have a new unique Pokémon. Either way, it'll be a sort of proof that they "suck" and not just unable to be fully utilized.

Bold stuff is my response. If you all don't think that justifies it enough, let me know and I'll retract it. *shrug* I just had this idea sitting here on my computer and I thought I'd share it.

...BTW, I know this is sorta off-topic, but can anyone tell me why the quote box says "Fat" before the name? >_>

[Illithian]

Hmmm... I was going to post something, but I thought about it and I don't even like my own idea. =.=

Cyberzero has an interesting concept, but it would almost require something new to function. Memento is already possible, but no one uses it, because it seems a waste. Not even strategies like Dual Screen Lunar Dance cress are actually used. Long term effects would really be the only way such a midgame suicider could function.

[Plus]

Stop the Secondary

Probably the most interesting concept competitively atm. It's broad, and gives an overall direction as to what we can do with this concept. I can't think of a single pokemon that can take most of the secondary moves easily. It's definitely a contender in my eyes.

Revenge Killer

I was expecting this concept to pop up. It's really not that bad, although we already know how revenge killers work, as there already some in our metagame. You've pointed them out already.

I'd advise you to put another question in your concept -- How will the increased usage of revenge killing affect Stall? Once you guarantee a pokemon trapped and killed, it really does become harder to wall things.

I'd like you to improve your concept through adding a more generalized description. The focus of revenge killers is to force a kill. However, another interesting concept is coming in, forcing a switch/trapping, then using support for the team. Maybe not a "Revenge Killer", rather a "Master of Revenge".

[dorkknight23]

Name: The Ultimate Revenge Killer

Description: This is a pokémon that does its best work switching in after another pokemon has fainted and take out the attacker. That might not be all it can do, but it’s best at that.

Justification: Popular pokémon like Scizor, Dugtrio, Weavile, Magnezone, and Heatran (or even Wobuffett in Ubers) are very popular in the metagame, and they are popular primarily as Revenge Killers. They either keep pokémon from switching out to take them down (like Magnezone, Dugtrio, or Wobuffett,) make pokémon want to switch out and hit them hard with a Pursuit or a Priority Move (Weavile, Scizor, and on occasion Dugtrio,) or, in Heatran’s case, get a boost from Flashfire and proceeds to do heavy damage to a counter switched in. The Revenge Killer is a function that hasn’t yet been explored in the CAP, and it would diversify options above those few pokémon who work primarily as Revenge Killers.

Questions to be Answered:
* What methods of revenge killing are most effective: trapping or using Pursuit?
* Can a pokémon be equally (or similarly) viable using two possible revenge killing methods, or will one method overshadow the other?
* Choice Items on revenge killers: required or merely helpful?
* What pokémon (if any) will see newfound metagame usage with a new revenge killer bringing different weaknesses than other revenge killers?

Explanation: Depending on direction voting goes, this pokémon would come in [possibly absorbing/powering up on an enemy attack on the way,] and either trap opponents and take them down or pound enemies with priority moves and Pursuit, or possibly even do both. This pokémon should have high enough stats to heavily damage an opponent, and high enough speed to hit first with moves other than priority moves. Most revenge killers are defensively frail but have high speed and offense, but this does not necessarily have to be the case. This pokémon could get priority moves like Extremespeed, Fake Out, Mach Punch, Aqua Jet, Shadow Sneak, Vacuum Wave, Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch, Quick Attack, or Ice Shard.

[tennisace]

I've already deleted a bunch of concepts because they're too close to existing CAP's. I've been lenient, however if you don't make sure ahead of time, your concept will be deleted.

[Solstice]

• Name – The Incredible Trapper
• Description – A Pokemon that can easily prevent a certain genre or type of the opponents Pokemon from switching and then removes them from play.
• Justification – This concept fills an extremely small but potentially incredibly dangerous niche in the metagame. Having the capacity and power to trap and kill threats can seriously hamper many common Pokemon, which would be an excellent learning experience about the metagame. If some very overused common Pokemon become less used, others can have an opportunity to work excellently. This can have a positive effect on the metagame by allowing less used Pokemon become more dominant and more diverse team building.
• Questions To Be Answered – If we implement a new move or ability for trapping, will the Pokemon become broken?
• Will this concept just be a better Magnezone or Dugtrio, or a worse Wobbuffet?
• This is a little used niche, how specialized should we make the concept?
• Will it be better used against offensive or stall?
• Explanation – Well when I just started battling, I used Dugtrio frequently to get rid of Blissey. This has stayed with me for a long time, I often use Magnezone on my teams. Trapping is very small niche and it’s so rare its often forgotten entirely. That was my inspiration for the concept, to make a Pokemon that can effectively stop quite a few threats in the metagame, by cutting them off from support and resistances from a team. One thing I really want to a Pokemon that can counter one of the two in the common walling combos, like Celetran, if it can trap one and get it away from the resistances of the other, it could really hinder the opponents team. This being a threat could dramatically change teams. A rise in U-Turn could be imminent if the concept traps a lot of Pokemon that can carry it, but it should have obvious and recognizable counters, and stats aren’t as important as ability or movepool.

[KnightoftheWind]

Helping the Underdog

How do you plan on helping an underdog of the metagame which does not help an overused pokemon more? For example, if Jirachi was a great partner to Altaria, chances are that Jirachi is a great partner to Dragonite or Salamence, which detracts from your concept.

What would you like to learn from this concept, exactly?

I didn't intend the CAP to support an underdog that is similar to other Pokemon, but one that is more unique, but suffers because of common weaknesses. For example, while Umbreon is one of the best Mean Look passers in OU, it suffers thanks to weaknesses to Fighting and Bug.

Of course, if directly supporting an underdog isn't feasible, we have the option of indirectly supporting it. We can try making a CAP where an underdog is one of the few 100% counters to it. If there are similar Pokemon to the underdog, we can modify the CAP so the similar Pokemon are simply checks to it, and can be beaten by the CAP.

[Plus]

Originally Posted by Fat KnightoftheWind

I didn't intend the CAP to support an underdog that is similar to other Pokemon, but one that is more unique, but suffers because of common weaknesses. For example, while Umbreon is one of the best Mean Look passers in OU, it suffers thanks to weaknesses to Fighting and Bug.

Of course, if directly supporting an underdog isn't feasible, we have the option of indirectly supporting it. We can try making a CAP where an underdog is one of the few 100% counters to it. If there are similar Pokemon to the underdog, we can modify the CAP so the similar Pokemon are simply checks to it, and can be beaten by the CAP.

Umbreon is the only Mean Look passer in OU to my knowledge. It suffers weaknesses to Scizor, Lucario, Machamp, to name a few. Edit your concept accordingly to describe your underdog in the explanation.

[familyguyman]

Name: The Ultimate Switch In

Description: A Pokemon who you won't hesitate to switch in to a variety of situations.

Justification: This whole metagame is based around switches. The whole point of entry hazards are to restrict switches. Pokemon thrive by forcing switches. Moves like U-Turn are deemed powerful simply because they build momentum by forcing switches. Basically, if a Pokemon can switch in at will and in a variety of situations it will have an impact on OU.

Questions To Be Answered:
-How important is switching to the OU metagame?
-What styles will benefit from a go-to switch in?
-What techniques will be developed to stop the ultimate switch in?
-How will prediction be affected by such a pokemon?

Explanation: There's a lot of directions to go here. Resistance to entry hazards jumps to mind first. This could be Magic Guard, Mountaineer + Flying type or Flygon/Claydol/Bronzong typing + ability. The concept doesn't stop there, there's no reason this Pokemon can't make switch ins easier for others to abuse. Other ideas could be instant Rapid Spin on the switch (probably too much) or a field effect move that stops secondary damage for X turns, like Safeguard but with Magic Guard built in. However, since the key is switching in, in a variety of situations, I am leaning towards a more bulky, less offensive pokemon who will gladly take hits but not necessarily force a switch out.

The idea might be a tad bland, but there's nothing like this in OU. Some pokemon come close but between the recent Move Tutor additions (Super Fang) and Toxic, nothing can be considered a "go-to" switch in.

Oh and I am not talking about Revenge Killing or Trapping, I am talking about a more defensive concept.

[Staraptor Call]

Name: Stat-Drop Abuser
Description: A Pokemon that can use stat-lowering moves very effectively in the OU metagame.
Justification: Stat-lowering moves, although they are not used very much currently, are not necessarily bad or gimmicky. Stat drops can help a Pokemon beat its counters, such as Heatran using Metal Sound to beat Blissey, or force switches, such as Blissey using Charm to discourage physical sweepers from staying in. Stat lowering is an important unexplored niche in the OU metagame, and an ultimate stat lowerer would test just how effective stat drops are in OU.
Questions to be Answered:
~How viable are stat-lowering moves in the OU metagame?
~What types of teams will a Stat-Drop Abuser benefit? What types of teams will it hurt?
Explanation: There are two main ways to make a Stat-Drop Abuser. First, it could be a tank or wall that lowers sweepers' offensive stats with Attack- and Special Attack-reducing moves and possibly Intimidate to force switches and get free turns. This would benefit stall teams the most by making more Pokemon switch into entry hazards, and would likely increase the use of mixed sweeping.

The second way to build a Stat-Drop Abuser would be to lure out and beat its usual counters. Such a Pokemon would utilize moves that lower defensive stats and could possibly abuse Substitute for avoiding walls' status moves. Bulky offense and balance would get most of the benefits of such a Pokemon, and would remove one sweeper's counters to help that sweeper function better.

[hydrolphin]

I edited some stuff into my post (a lot more than I had originaly intended), hopeful you get my point Plus. Though I do like the Stop the Secondary a lot. Its similar to mine in some ways (it would help in beating stall!) So if mine doesn't make it through, then I would support that one.

[Plus]

Hydrolphin: That just seems like a pointless calc; I don't see why you would switch in Hippowdon to Mixmence, especially from those calcs. A max of 95%? You don't need an OHKO to break stall, you simply have to overpower everything. Stall is not the only dominant style of play in the metagame. I could say that a competent CBTar user or Mixmence user could dismantle well built stall. It's not like stall is impossible to beat, nor is any other style.

Ultimate Switch In

It's not like there aren't any good switch ins to a lot of moves in the metagame. I'm not really sure how much you could learn from it. So I'll ask you: What do you want to learn from an "Ultimate Switch In", that isn't in the current metagame at the moment? Remember, we want something fresh and interesting.

Stat Drop Abuser

This is overall a pretty good concept, although there could be troubles trying to find that niche in the metagame, with all the moves and stats that it could be given in the future. While still a good concept, it suffers from a bit of specifics that could make it hard to pull off.

[familyguyman]

Well, what I want to learn with The Ultimate Switch In is mainly how prediction will be affected.

When something is such a safe switch in, both players should expect it. So now what? Do you predict it? Does the commonness of the switch make you try to over predict? Do players become reliant on a safe switch in?

The main data I'd be interested in looking at is the Switch In stat that was recently released and also the Switch In/Usage stat. I think Blissey tops the latter.

Basically, I want something that can switch in to status moves, unboosted attacks and entry hazards and be able to live to do it over and over, hopefully taking over the top Switch In/Usage spot.

[Plus]

Originally Posted by Fat familyguyman

When something is such a safe switch in, both players should expect it. So now what? Do you predict it? Does the commonness of the switch make you try to over predict? Do players become reliant on a safe switch in?

Interesting, however you can't determine how common a pokemon will be. Whether somebody will use it many times or not, etc. If it drops in usage, will this CAP become just another pokemon?

Basically, I want something that can switch in to status moves, unboosted attacks and entry hazards and be able to live to do it over and over, hopefully taking over the top Switch In/Usage spot.

You switch in, then what? Your opponent brings out something to beat it, you either recover or attack, and switch out. That's simple pokemon right there, so what's there to learn about switching over and over in a cycle until somebody out predicts?

[familyguyman]

Originally Posted by Fat Plus

Interesting, however you can't determine how common a pokemon will be. Whether somebody will use it many times or not, etc. If it drops in usage, will this CAP become just another pokemon?



You switch in, then what? Your opponent brings out something to beat it, you either recover or attack, and switch out. That's simple pokemon right there, so what's there to learn about switching over and over in a cycle until somebody out predicts?

This pokemon will obviously have to have something to do while it's in, however, the primary purpose would be a safety net. When you don't know what to expect or your just want a safe, reliable switch in, CAP 9 will be who you go to. For how it threatens the opponent, I didn't want to bring up moves or stats but if we go defensive, then moves like Toxic or other Status will be decent threats but not enough to always force a switch. If it is given entry hazards, it could set them up too. It could be a mean phazer as well and will likely have some form of recovery.

It actually sounds a lot like an ideal mixed wall for a Stall team, which it could very well turn into, but I am looking more at "indirect walling" by blocking entry damage or status.

[Solstice]

Originally Posted by Fat familyguyman

This pokemon will obviously have to have something to do while it's in, however, the primary purpose would be a safety net. When you don't know what to expect or your just want a safe, reliable switch in, CAP 9 will be who you go to. For how it threatens the opponent, I didn't want to bring up moves or stats but if we go defensive, then moves like Toxic or other Status will be decent threats but not enough to always force a switch. If it is given entry hazards, it could set them up too. It could be a mean phazer as well and will likely have some form of recovery.

It actually sounds a lot like an ideal mixed wall for a Stall team, which it could very well turn into, but I am looking more at "indirect walling" by blocking entry damage or status.

It sounds to me like a defensive Kitsunoh, a bunch of resistances and immunties, and since its reliable to switch in, it forces the opponent to switch, effectively scouting. I find that Flygon does a similar thing as well. So, how is this NOT a defensive Kitsunoh, because CaP doesnt really need another scout.