CAP 9 - Concept Submissions

[boo836]

Name: Counterstall, Bad against offense
General Description: Basicly a Pokemon that can Stack up well against Stall, but it's bad against Offense. You not neccisarily (bad spelling loool) High attack/Special attack, but something that can wreck stall.
Justification: Because stall stops most of the metagame, this can stop stall itself, promoting more use of offensive teams and therefore less centralization.
Questions to be Answered:

• What else can really break stall besides this Pokemon?
• Is it possible that this Pokemon might outclass another Pokemon?
• Why break Stall?
• Why not break offense?

Explanation: Specs Infernape is another Pokemon that can somewhat break stall, but it might find it hard to beat other stallers such as Blissey and it's easily played around. It is always possible that this Pokemon might outclass another, but that's up to you guys. There aren't too many stall breakers out there, so it might be difficult to outclass one. Stall is very hard to break, and like Lucario, this Pokemon shouldn't be able to beat all stall, but most of it. I find that stall is bland and centralised with Blissey/Tentacruel/Skarmory/Rotom/Filler/Filler. Offense though, is centralized around Stall too, so if this were to help break stall, this might allow more freedom to use different Pokemon, which will widen our metagame.


This is my first submission, so if I made an error, then please, do tell me what it is, I will do my best to correct it.

[Nik S D]

Originally Posted by Fat boo836

Name: Counterstall, Bad against offense
General Description: Basicly a Pokemon that can Stack up well against Stall, but it's bad against Offense. You not neccisarily (bad spelling loool) High attack/Special attack, but something that can wreck stall.
Justification: Because stall stops most of the metagame, this can stop stall itself, promoting more use of offensive teams and therefore less centralization.
Questions to be Answered:

• What else can really break stall besides this Pokemon?
• Is it possible that this Pokemon might outclass another Pokemon?
• Why break Stall?
• Why not break offense?

Explanation: Specs Infernape is another Pokemon that can somewhat break stall, but it might find it hard to beat other stallers such as Blissey and it's easily played around. It is always possible that this Pokemon might outclass another, but that's up to you guys. There aren't too many stall breakers out there, so it might be difficult to outclass one. Stall is very hard to break, and like Lucario, this Pokemon shouldn't be able to beat all stall, but most of it. I find that stall is bland and centralised with Blissey/Tentacruel/Skarmory/Rotom/Filler/Filler. Offense though, is centralized around Stall too, so if this were to help break stall, this might allow more freedom to use different Pokemon, which will widen our metagame.


This is my first submission, so if I made an error, then please, do tell me what it is, I will do my best to correct it.

Hold up, I thought we weren't allowed stats in our descriptions? Anyway, while stall-breaking doesn't seem very imaginative, I for one would personally like a completely reliable stall-breaker.

[Masamune]

Originally Posted by Fat Darkflagrance

This idea may seem borderline illegal, but a slight tweak of it might solve those problems.

The concept remains Berry Abuse. But the "Berry Abuse" is not necessarily an ability or move designed to increase the berry's quantitative effectiveness by some numerical percent, but rather a pokemon like Garchomp or Heatran, that uses its berry strategically to set-up at a key moment. Thus, this CAP concept forces us to examine the strategic possibilities offered by different berries in depth, while at the same time not necessarily implying a particular move or ability.

Thus, this pokemon can be effective due to its moves and ability, and it does not have to run the berry to be effective. But because it is capable of running several berries, all effectively, it becomes a prediction conundrum.

Great idea for correction ^.~

[CasMat]

Edit: If my concept is a counts as a repost, I'm sorry.

Name: Handicapped Super Wall.

General Description: A seemingly impenetrable wall that is handicapped to the point of being balanced.

Justification: Making a Pokemon with game breaking attributes and then successfully handicapping it could be a great learning experience. Aside from Fidgit, few CAP lack the ability to be offensive, and specifically creating something to be purely defensive would be interesting.

Questions to be Answered:
1 Was the Pokemon successfully handicapped without becoming unusable?
2 Is such a Pokemon any easier or more difficult to use than offensively minded counterparts, such as Slaking?
3 How does the Pokemon fare when compared to more standard walls?

Explanation: No this does not have to have Traunt, though that was my original inspiration. It could just as easily be something in the same vein as Shedinja, although maybe a little more abusable. Or it could go an entirely different direction and be handicapped by a super shitty move pool. In any case, something like this has the potential to be very useful while also requiring a lot of thought to use effectively.

[Robo-Ky]

Here's my first submission, hope I'm doing it right...

Name: Perfect Partner

General Description: A Pokemon that can perform adequately on its own, but becomes a dangerous force when paired up with one or more certain others.

Justification: This Pokemon plus another would, cooperatively, be able to take on a majority of the metagame through a variety of roles. Note that each Pokemon would be performing together, not just one being supported by the other. The two could be able to support each other through, for instance:
~Covering each other's weaknesses and resistances.
~Being able to switch in on the other's counters and either defeat them or force a switch.
~Boosting each other's potential through supportive moves or abilities.
~Covering the weaker side of the other's stats.
Or through any combination of the above.

Questions to be Answered:
~What Pokemon could be considered viable partners with this one?
~Would this Pokemon centralize the metagame around it, its viable partners, or counters to said Pokemon?
~What type of role (Sweeper, Wall, etc.) would each Pokemon use, and how would they compliment each other?
~What kinds of Pokemon would these two be able to counter, and what would counter it?
~How would this affect prediction, as people who encounter this Pokemon would likely expect its partner to be on the team as well, and would make their decisions based on this expectation?

Explanation: First and foremost, both this Pokemon and its partners should be performing together, not just one supporting the other. Each should be able to perform well separately, but should be dangerous to face when together. A good existing example of how this combination would work is the SkarmBliss combo. Each one covers the other through typing and stats, and together they form a solid wall. This is more of a defensive example; a more offensive example would be Mixmence and Metagross. They cover each other's weaknesses perfectly, they cover the full range of the attacking spectrum, and they are both equally viable as attackers. The combo of this Pokemon and its partner should be able to compliment the other in ways such as this. Each Pokemon's role should compliment the other as well - for instance, a Pokemon with less speed and attacking potential, but better defenses and support moves would compliment a faster, more powerful Pokemon. Also, this Pokemon should be able to perform adequately in its role on its own, it shouldn't need its partner to be decent in the metagame. It should, however, be more powerful when paired with one of its designated counters.

[Pink]

For everyone suggesting so called super-walls and pokemon that can only wall, etc. We already have one. It's called Shuckle. It can only wall and has a major handicap, his HP. Unless you have something else in mind for making it only be a wall or w/e, we already have one.

[CasMat]

Originally Posted by Fat Pink

For everyone suggesting so called super-walls and pokemon that can only wall, etc. We already have one. It's called Shuckle. It can only wall and has a major handicap, his HP. Unless you have something else in mind for making it only be a wall or w/e, we already have one.

Shuckle is pretty nonviable. That is reason enough to believe that my suggested concept would produce something a lot different than Shuckle.

Edit: Actually, being handicapped by HP really sort of negates him from being a super wall in the first place.

[ferron]

Name: speed is not a factor

General Description: a poke who has a variety of both possitive and negative priority moves to allow itself to deal with various situations.

Justification: priority moves have become a staple of some pokes' strategy, both offensively and to counter enemies. this will also allow us to look at how much of a pokes usefulness may be found in it's movepool rather than just purely through it's stats.

Questions to be Asked:
does priority actually make a poke good, or is it how it is used?
how will this variety of "timing" options people's ability to predict?
even with a plethora of priority options, will people chose to use it in another way, or just stick with priority?
will access to positive priority moves help counter stall, or will the defensive negative priorities help stall out? both?

Explanation: bullet punch, fake out, extreme speed, roar, mach punch, ice shards, counter, revenge, avalache, magic coat, mirror coat, sucker punch, focus punch... these are just some moves with various priority moves that have the possibility to influence a match, but we never think of them outside of "positive priority is good, negative priority has to have a useful effect". i want us to look outside the box into figuring out what makes them good, how good are they, and how they all function together.

the title i gave this concept is rather misleading since speed WILL be a factor in order to counter act other priority users and b/c it is impossible to make this poke's entire movepool just priority moves. this also opens the door for psuedo-priority moves (ones that are better based on timing) like follow-me, payback, assurance and metal burst.

this concept also isn't as limiting as it might seem at first. the concept would work well with offensive, defensive or even balanced pokes due to the options that the various moves will allow for. typing may seem like a problem, as the majority of these moves fall under ice (ice shards and avalache), fighting (mach punch, vacuum wave, counter, revenge), dark (sucker punch and the psuedo-negative priority payback) and metal (bullet punch and the psuedo-negative priority metal burst), but since when has pokemon solely relied on STAB for its moves (e-speed lucario, fake-outs galour, ice shard donphan).

[Plus]

Originally Posted by Fat Walvren

Well the thing about countering a single move is the method in which to do it. Of course, we aren't about to make a move that goes "Prevents the foe from using Trick". We could instead create a move/ability that counters a group of moves. For example, an ability that grants immunity to non-damaging Psychic moves.

Trick may not be used in every match but equally controlling moves are used as well. Any OU team generally has any of the following: Trick, Taunt, Encore, Torment etc

So how is Taunt/Encore/Torment relevant to his concept? Furthermore, you haven't told me otherwise how Trick would not be a small niche, rather just reiterated what LR has said.

This concept thread will close by the end of the day, or on Monday. This does not mean "dig underneath a pile of shit to get the least creative yet valid concept you can find", it means that if you have an interesting concept, post it. Posting for the hell of it makes my job harder.

As for my opinions of these concepts, I'm interested in about 5 at the moment. This number could change when I reread all the concepts again, and I'll tell you right now that most of the concepts submitted will probably not make it. I apologize for acting like such a "nazi", but I want concepts that I am sure will make good CAPs.

[Pink]

Originally Posted by Fat CasMat

Shuckle is pretty nonviable. That is reason enough to believe that my suggested concept would produce something a lot different than Shuckle.

Edit: Actually, being handicapped by HP really sort of negates him from being a super wall in the first place.

No it doesn't. Your concept is that it is a super wall WITH A HANDICAP to make it balanced. I think having the highest combined defenses, especially in a Sandstorm, but weak HP is pretty much your concept.

[Lightning Storm]

Name: Ability Abuser

General Description:A Pokemon that excels at a certain task (sweeping, annoying, walling, etc.) due to an ability, but becomes useless if it loses it.

Justification: An ability dependent Pokemon would allow us to explore how necessary abilities are to a Pokemon, and if a Pokemon with one primary advantage can function as well as Pokemon that are more evenly advantagous.

Questions to be Answered:
-Would players rather run counters to completely cripple CAP 9, or would they rather deal with it as is?
-How important is an ability?
-Would a Pokemon with a massive weak point be able to function, despite obvious counters being available?
-What Pokemon would help support CAP 9?
-Would Pokemon with bad abilities be used more often, in hopes of having their abilities removed by CAP 9's counters?
-Which other Pokemon also rely enough on their abilities to fear CAP 9's counters?
-Which Pokemon can easily remove abilities?

Explanation:
Of all of the OU Pokemon, almost all of them are worse without their ability, but few to none are non-functional without it. A straightforward example of a Pokemon that would be heavily reliant on it's ability would be a Physical Sweeper with the ability Huge Power. If you take away the ability, it's effectiveness is halved! There is obviously a lot of room to to work with here. Another more complex example would be a Slow, Physical attacker with Klutz, that holds flame orb and uses trick to burn the opponent. Without Klutz, CAP 9 would be burned, and it's attack power would drop, again making it less effective. That example is a bit extreme, but it is a good example of how far we can go with this concept.

[CasMat]

Originally Posted by Fat Pink

No it doesn't. Your concept is that it is a super wall WITH A HANDICAP to make it balanced. I think having the highest combined defenses, especially in a Sandstorm, but weak HP is pretty much your concept.

I mean something which should be broken based on it's ability to wall, but something else un-breaks the pokemon as a whole but not as a wall. Not something whose stats make it look like it would be a broken wall if you ignore half of them. Something like a defensively oriented Slaking, or a more viable Shedinja. It does not necessarily have to be much like either of them, those are just examples.

[ferron]

lightning storm, how do you plan on having your poke become useless without its ability? are you expecting a sudden surge of worry seed and gastro acid users?

[zarator]

Originally Posted by Fat Lightning Storm

Name: Ability Abuser

I think Breloom (Poison Heal) and Ninjask (Spped Boost) already qualify for this job pretty well. I fail to see the point into this (sorry for criticizing so many concepts, I'm just pointing out my thoughts to eventually make them better).

@Wombat Sky Forme: Yes, there is plenty of mirror concepts, which leads me to think that a lot of posters did not even bothered reading other people submissions before posting their. I mean, we are not here to make our concept win, but to make the possibly best concept win. If someone "stole" (I wonder how, anyway) your concept, fine. If you like it, support it. No need to post a carbon copy of it a page or 2 after.

[Nik S D]

Plus, about how much more time do you think the concept submissions are going to be opened? Also, when will the first concept poll start? Just a rough estimate. You don't have to answer, if you'd like to keep it private.

By the way, wouldn't a Pokemon who cannot function AT ALL without its' ability somewhat...bad? I'm talking about Ability Abuser here. Also, you haven't stated anything really special that the ability will give, besides making it good at a skill which many other Pokemon can already do. I don't really see the appeal.

EDIT: Sorry about asking for the time, that was stupid.

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by Fat Plus

This concept thread will close by the end of the day, or on Monday.

Read, people.

[Plus]

I've changed my mind -- I'm closing it now. This concept thread has really gone downhill in creativity, quality, and overall discussion these past few pages, and I don't think it will get any better. I'm pretty disappointed at some, yet I'm still impressed by many. Thank you for those who chimed in and helped me comment on concepts.

I will edit in the results of who made the cut to the poll momentarily.

[DougJustDoug**]

Originally Posted by Fat Plus

As for my opinions of these concepts, I'm interested in about 5 at the moment. This number could change when I reread all the concepts again, and I'll tell you right now that most of the concepts submitted will probably not make it. I apologize for acting like such a "nazi", but I want concepts that I am sure will make good CAPs.

This is EXACTLY what we intended when we restructured the Topic Leader guide. Not that we wanted a nazi TL, but that we want the TL to only slate Concepts that they feel can be the basis for a good CAP. The community will ultimately pick the actual concept, by community vote. But, we expect the Topic Leader to narrow the field considerably. If that means that Plus puts 5 concepts in the first poll -- that's certainly within his rights to do so.

I'd also like to commend Plus for staying on top of this thread. This concept thread is probably the most active Concept thread in the history of the CAP project! And with the change to the Concept posting format, each concept is longer and more detailed than ever. It's a lot of work to scrutinize all this information, and I appreciate the effort you are putting in.

Also, thanks to everyone for putting forethought and effort into your Concept Submissions. It appears that most submitters are trying very hard to come up with good, legal concepts -- which is hard to to do!

Overall this is has been a good start to CAP 9. I think this thread is markedly better than past concept submission threads -- from a process standpoint, that is.

[tennisace]

In order of submission, these concepts are moving on.

moi's Stop the Secondary
billymills' Two-Sided Attack
Zari and Fuzznip's Status Counter
Xyphang's Super Lure

Grats to all who made it, and thank you to all those who participated!

[X-Act]

Originally Posted by Fat Illithian

Adonzo, in the CAP IRC, we had a discussion about how it could be competitively viable and broken, and we found two things:

Either:
A. Its a cleric
or
B. Its used to revive a pokemon at the end to sweep an opponents team

If A, we decided we don't need another cleric, and if B, its a waste of a slot.



That was a simplified version.

Essentially, originally I thought a sacrifice-myself-revive-an-ally move wasn't broke, but Fuzznip convinced me otherwise with this:

[23:49] <@Fuzznip> example:
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> you have one pokemon left
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> which is the concept
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> and you are facing the opponent
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> with say 4 pokemon left
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> you sacrifice yourself
[23:49] <@Fuzznip> and heal up something that can destroy all 4
[23:50] <@Fuzznip> sounds extremely broken
[23:50] <@Fuzznip> by a mile

And:

[23:54] <@Fuzznip> just keep it as your last Pokemon
[23:54] <@Fuzznip> so you are guaranteed to heal up a Pokemon that can finish your opponent off
[23:54] <@Fuzznip> that's just stupid and ridiculous

endl;

Just wanted to say that Cresselia's Lunar Dance move almost does this. The only difference is that it cannot revive one of your allies, but can only be used on a Pokemon that hasn't yet fainted, even though it has no PP, only 1 HP left and is crippled by Burn. Lunar Dance would make Cresselia faint and then heal such a Pokemon completely from HP, PPs and status ailments. So, for Fuzznip's first example, you can use Cresselia's Lunar Dance on one of your Pokemon that is almost dead... except you don't have one Pokemon left...