(Gen 2) As promised, thisisBob. Think of it as my guide part 2 (long)

[Borat]

You would need to sacrifice Toxic's slot for Zap Cannon. A pursuitless umbreon couldn't possibly convince a Starmie to stay in. Even then, it'd have to be a pretty quick team to really benefit from the momentary paralysis. And by BL, you mean...? Charizard/Druidcruel?

As far as Jolteon goes, I've tried Agility/Baton Pass/HP Water/Substitute. People expect every jolteon to pack tbolt to the point that they wouldn't even consider switching in Suicune/Skarmory/whatever. And because Jolteon's time is usually shortlived, that one misprediction on their end could definitely swing the battle in your favor. Along the same lines, Snorlax doesn't necessarily have to run BS/Return/Double Edge. In fact, something like EQ/FB/LK/SD could work a lot better than your standard LK/SD lax, and it's the set I run on some of my older teams.

And the thing about Rest/Pain Split/Destiny Bond missy is that it has absolutely no reliable method of carrying out perish songing in the face of a phazer.

[Borat]

Updated in post 3 with Donphan and Houndoom.

[havoc]

Donphan - Donphan is undoubtedly a cool pokemon, but I find its usefulness to be sketchy at best. As I wrote in the GSC analysis for him, he can do everything ok, but every purpose that Donphan serves is done better by something else.

"general defensive pokemon"? sure, but Umbreon's Charm works faster than Donphan's Growl, Suicune can switch into just about any special attack that isn't a STAB Thunderbolt, and Miltank can Growl without having to Rest.

"2nd most popular Spinner that can't Spike"? and you could arguably say 3rd best if you want to include Tentacruel. but this is exactly my point; it's good, but never great. Earthquake OHKOs Gengar and leaves Misdreavus reeling, but neither are really going to switch into repeated thwacks by Starmie either. and Starmie doesn't have to Rest either. and Cloyster (the only Spiker really seen anymore) can Ice Beam or Surf Donphan out.

"2nd strongest Earthquake in the game"? I don't know which one you forgot: Marowak or Rhydon. at least Rhydon gets a STAB Rock Slide. Curse/EQ/Rest/Rock Slide Rhydon is straight beast, I've said this for a long time and I still believe it. I'd gladly lose 30 attack points on Donphan for 30 more HP.

"can leave a mark once all the birds are gone"? don't forget about Miltank and Suicune (both on your team), Exeggutor (on everyone else's, myself included), and Heracross (Earthquake resistance is the most underrated thing about him).

I wish Donphan was good, I really do, but I just don't think he is, despite good stats (Arcanine syndrome).

Houndoom - the 278 attack is only good for Reversal, which I mentioned in Houndoom's analysis[/plug]. his problem is that it has no resistances. if it had one, just one, meaningful resistance it'd be a lot more useful. not that he isn't--I still think Houndoom is the best Fire pokemon in the game--but you have to have a really solid/ingenious way of taking down Snorlax. Houndoom is a sniper against the things he can take down (Pursuit is one of my favorite moves in GSC), but unlike Jynx who has Lovely Kiss, Houndoom can't really do anything to neutralize repeated Snorlax/Tyranitar/Suicune/Blissey when they switch in.

[Borat]

Miltank Growls better than Donphan, but I wouldn't put Umbreon in the same sentence as him.

Can't include Tentacruel, as it's never used as a spinner. Donphan is almost always a spinner.

Forgot Marowak.

Pursuit breaks stalls.

Might add more later.

EDIT: Posted Kingdra.

[mtr]

539 turns?

I think I just shat myself in horror. However, I did read your comments and found them informative overall, at least coming from the perspective of someone who hasn't played GSC.

[.Maguss.]

Lapras don't learn Thunder Wave. I think you meant Thunder/Thunderbolt. And you probably forgot Kingdra can learn Double-Edge.

[Borat]

Right, I meant Lanturn. Either that, or Body Slam.

Kingdra is better off with Return the same reason Porygon2 is. Now if it could learn Body Slam... but it can't, so whatever.

[Maris]

... has anyone tried to use perish trapping gengar/smeargle? at first they seem pretty gimmicky then you realize that most players dont expect it... and smeagle can reliably bring out and trap/ko skarm
typical senario
opp sent in skarmory
smeagle use spider web
smeagle used spore
smeagle use parish song
smeagle used protect
smeagle used protect
skarmory died
drumlax>gg

[Borat]

10 reasons.

1. Sleep perish trapping is banned on all accounts.
2. See 1.
3. Jynx does it better.
4. Gengar does it better.
5. Haunter does it better.
6-10. Always attack Smeargle. Every STAB attack 2HKOs him. Here's a more realistic scenario. Smeargle vs Starmie. Starmie used Surf, Smeargle used Spider Web. Starmie used Surf, Smeargle has fainted.

[Borat]

Looking back, I like the discussion on Alakazam.

Alakazam has a good chance to dent most things, but too bad he can't reliably switch into most things either. The few that he can switch into, he can't really damage (Blissey). He hits Raikou hard, Snorlax... sort of, not really, and all that jazz, but so can a ton of Pokemon. Machamp hits EVERYTHING hard, but he's hardpressed to switch into anything non-Tyranitar. Alakazam is far better on paper than in practice, especially against an experienced opponent. Fire Punch + Toxic sounds nice, but an inherent inferiority is shown in the psychic-type attack; Starmie can spread the same amount of Toxic without having to dedicate a third move just to counter Steels. More HP, much more defense doesn't hurt either. Weak to electrics isn't really a deal breaker in this comparison imo, Alakazam can't switch into Raikou/Zapdos anyway.

Any other Zam supporters?

[havoc]

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

Looking back, I like the discussion on Alakazam.

Alakazam has a good chance to dent most things, but too bad he can't reliably switch into most things either. The few that he can switch into, he can't really damage (Blissey). He hits Raikou hard, Snorlax... sort of, not really, and all that jazz, but so can a ton of Pokemon. Machamp hits EVERYTHING hard, but he's hardpressed to switch into anything non-Tyranitar. Alakazam is far better on paper than in practice, especially against an experienced opponent. Fire Punch + Toxic sounds nice, but an inherent inferiority is shown in the psychic-type attack; Starmie can spread the same amount of Toxic without having to dedicate a third move just to counter Steels. More HP, much more defense doesn't hurt either. Weak to electrics isn't really a deal breaker in this comparison imo, Alakazam can't switch into Raikou/Zapdos anyway.

Any other Zam supporters?

Alakazam can't reliably switch into most things, this is true, but he can Recover off the damage and has the Speed necessary to do it. can't say the same about Jynx, who I think accompanies Alakazam in that "Special attack, can't take a hit" niche.

Starmie doesn't have to dedicate a third move just to counter Steels, but it can't touch Suicune or Raikou the same way Alakazam can. when I used the Fire Punch/Toxic Alakazam, the Fire Punch was just as much about hitting Exeggutor as it was Steelix. sans Exeggutor I probably would have used Thunderpunch. Steelix isn't impervious to Psychic and SE on Starmie is wonderful. it kind of makes me want to go back and change it, since Exeggutor folds quickly when it's poisoned.

Machamp has a harder time switching in on its usual targets than Alakazam because he's slow and has no Recover. I love Machamp even though I have never used him ever, and the reason why I've never used him is just because he is hard to use.

Special-offensive pokemon in GSC are undoubtedly shafted by the lack of the move Growth, no Calm Mind/Metal Sound, non-RBY Amnesia and so forth, but I think Alakazam can still be big...I think he's best with Spikes and poison to help (as are most non-setup attackers), but since he does hit so hard, a CH or SpDef down can be painful (around 45% on Snorlax and 55% to Suicune iirc). Speaking of Special-offensive pokemon and Alakazam, I still love Espeon and think it's the best Growtheon...I know most would probably prefer Jolteon and Vaporeon before Espeon, but...

[green_flash]

i've never tried out zam but i'd probably go psychic/fire punch/dynamicpunch/recover + spikes support

love the growtheons

[133tSneasel]

I think Alakazam is useful because of it's ability to use Encore, and force your opponent to switch, and do damage to the switched in Pokemon, plus it can set up screen's Reflect, Light Screen, and Barrier.

I don't know about Dynamic Punch, which it's poor Attack stat, but I guess for confusion, and some damage.

Funny, Alakazam could use Dig in previous generations, (RBYGSC) but in the later ones it can't I wonder why. (RSEDPpl)

He also can learn Zap-Cannon, which is an interesting move, it's like Thunder Wave with damage

[Borat]

If Alakazam has to spend the next turn Recovering off damage, then he really loses the whole "hit things on switch hard". And when he loses that, whatever switches into Zam will probably be something that matches up even better (ie Snorlax), forcing you to switch and eat a hit. Counter-productive really.

And if you're making comparisons to Jynx, then yeah, I'll give you that. I'll put them in roughly the same boat, aka not-up-to-OU-standards. However, I'd still rank Jynx a nipple higher. By all means though, the two are definitely dominant in BL play, if there exists such a thing.

Starmie hits Raikoou pretty much as hard as Alakazam? Or am I missing something? Furthermore, if we're talking about potential rather than what's standard, Starmie has the potential to be a better Zam. I don't think the two are even comparable in terms of all-around "potential". That is, unless you'd use both?

Machamp is definitely harder to use, but hits harder in almost every regard. But that difficulty makes it a double-edge sword, albeit one with a lot of upside.

Espeon and vaporeon are the two top Growth users, different in use so you can't really say one is better than the other. Espeon is good for quick hit, run, and recovers. Vaporeon is more of a setup and sweep. Drumlax vs Curselax in a sense.

[green_flash]

Borat, you seem to mention Lapras quite a bit, as of late. Is there any real sense in using her in OU? I mean, something she isn't outclassed in by either Starmie, Suicune or Gengar.

[Borat]

Really, I don't think I've mentioned Lapras at all in the GSC world. It's better than Kingdra though, for whatever that may account for.

She's mad fun in a gimmicky world though. Whirlpool/Perish Song makes for interesting stuff, throw in Sing too if you want (I don't think anyone will complain about a Lapras like that...). And there's Attract, Body Slam, Confuse Ray, Thunder or something.

She's pretty damn useless in the OU world though. She's BL tried and true. And not the good BL either like Vaporeon [with Growth]/Clefable [with Drum], who can contribute and possibly become OU if there's still players, not even the average BLs like Ampharos or Kangaskhan, who have a slightly more powerful counterpart hogging the spotlight. She's the BL that'll remain BL because there's no chance of her moving up, both because she's outclassed by current OUs, and because she's... not able to do anything. She's just slightly overpowered for UU play though, but even then, it's still somewhat debatable. If you had to draw a parallel, she's almost identical to Lanturn. No way is Lanturn OU.

Also, @above: DP does something like 40% to Blissey. Psychic doesn't come close to that.

[PK Gaming]

Crazy match. I was on the edge of my seat.

Anyway... opinions on Raichu? Inferior Raikou/Pikachu? Bad pokemon overall?

(GSC looks fun, I'd like to try it if I ever get the chance)

[Borat]

Very mediocre.

Pretty bad overall stats, can really only switch into non-STAB neutral hits, electrics, and Skarmory. Starmie outraces it to the KO should Raichu decide to switch in. But as with most Electrics, pretty good with spreading Toxic since it scares the two that usually don't mind (Skarm/Suicune). Encore is really its only redeeming point, but even then, it tops out at 8 PP.

Definitely worse than Zapdos/Raikou, less accessible than Jolteon, and arguably a notch worse than Ampharos as well, depending on how much your team needs Encore.

@133tSneasel: Zap Cannon is interesting. It's like Thunder Wave, but misses.

[Trax]

I find your lack of love for Porygon2 disturbing..

That being said, I always liked running weird shit to try and throw people off rather than play the standard game (mostly because when I started Standards was Blissey, Skarmory and Suicune in the same team and well.. fuck that) -- EQ/Swords Dance/Counter/Synthesis Meganium for life, faggots.

[Borat]

Wrong. Plenty of love for Pgon2. It just doesn't work as advertised. Let me know if you find a loophole to the flaws I listed (aka hard counters, especially Tyranitar. I don't like giving that thing a free switch). It'll beat more than your fair share of weaker teams sure, up there with the best of them. But so can Ursaring and Kangaskhan.

I've run a similar Meganium set with Body Slam. It's also another "better on paper" example. SD is your best PP waster, but you're stuck with using Counter more times than not to prevent both a Drill Peck and WW. A conundrum that more often than not, against mildly competent opponents, won't work out in your favor. He also has other options, which are to switch, and whatever Skarm's (for the sake of simplicity, I'm assuming Skarmory is the obvious switch) 4th move is (assuming it's either Sand-Attack or Thief, because Curse and Toxic both flatout beat it). If you guess wrong, you lose your setup. If your opponent guesses wrong, you waste a WW PP. It's a risk-reward decision that is really... lose-tie at best.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

Very mediocre.

Pretty bad overall stats, can really only switch into non-STAB neutral hits, electrics, and Skarmory. Starmie outraces it to the KO should Raichu decide to switch in. But as with most Electrics, pretty good with spreading Toxic since it scares the two that usually don't mind (Skarm/Suicune). Encore is really its only redeeming point, but even then, it tops out at 8 PP.

Definitely worse than Zapdos/Raikou, less accessible than Jolteon, and arguably a notch worse than Ampharos as well, depending on how much your team needs Encore.

@133tSneasel: Zap Cannon is interesting. It's like Thunder Wave, but misses.

Ah well that's too bad.
I've got 2 more questions Borat.
1.What do you mean by less accessible than Jolteon
2. Is Encore useful in OU by any means? Seems that it can help against cursers, but as you seen matches really draaaag and 8 pp seems poor.

[Borat]

I meant less teams are likely to find use with it. But in retrospect, that doesn't make too much sense at all. What I meant was Jolteon combos better with more Pokemon (Machamp, Snorlax, Marowak, Charizard, etc), whereas Raichu will usually fill a utility role, akin to splashing on teams, which I don't really like to do. I guess Raichu is actually MORE accessible in those terms, but it'll have a lesser impact overall than Jolteon.

The secret to using Encore is... not really using it. You want your opponent to know you have it, and you're certainly capable of using it, but you don't. It's that looming threat that makes it all the more dangerous. Let's face it, 8 pp doesn't last a long way if you Encore at every opportunity (and believe me, there are plenty of times you might think you need it, but you really don't). It's the ultimate mindgame move and certainly gamechanging if used properly.

However Encore on Raichu is really a catch-22. Raichu can't really switch into anything that packs Curse/Belly Drum. If you trust your prediction, or as a last ditch effort to stop drum or whatever, go for it. But really, it's just the thought of "maybe he might switch to Raichu, which may Encore me" that deters a lot of players from Drumming or whatever. It's not the actul physical use of the move that makes it good. In that sense, 8 pp should last you a good 200+ turns easy.

Moreover, it's one of the better anti-ptrap moves. It forgoes the luck moves in Attract/Confuse Ray for a surefire counter. You can almost say it stops sleep trapping (almost, not quite, protect blocks Encore hence outpps it quicker).

Ultimately, it's a real waste to use against cursers, unless your Raichu can switch into said curser reliably (it shouldn't be able to), the curser is your only threat (in which case you're facing a bad team), AND you have no other use for Encore against said team. It's a great move, especially if something like Umbreon could learn it, but on Raichu, it's really a mixed bag. Raichu often switches into either Zapdos, Raikou, Blissey, Skarmory, and Umbreon. None of them really have moves worth Encoring. And an active Raichu isn't really a threat to anything.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

I meant less teams are likely to find use with it. But in retrospect, that doesn't make too much sense at all. What I meant was Jolteon combos better with more Pokemon (Machamp, Snorlax, Marowak, Charizard, etc), whereas Raichu will usually fill a utility role, akin to splashing on teams, which I don't really like to do. I guess Raichu is actually MORE accessible in those terms, but it'll have a lesser impact overall than Jolteon.

The secret to using Encore is... not really using it. You want your opponent to know you have it, and you're certainly capable of using it, but you don't. It's that looming threat that makes it all the more dangerous. Let's face it, 8 pp doesn't last a long way if you Encore at every opportunity (and believe me, there are plenty of times you might think you need it, but you really don't). It's the ultimate mindgame move and certainly gamechanging if used properly.

However Encore on Raichu is really a catch-22. Raichu can't really switch into anything that packs Curse/Belly Drum. If you trust your prediction, or as a last ditch effort to stop drum or whatever, go for it. But really, it's just the thought of "maybe he might switch to Raichu, which may Encore me" that deters a lot of players from Drumming or whatever. It's not the actul physical use of the move that makes it good. In that sense, 8 pp should last you a good 200+ turns easy.

Moreover, it's one of the better anti-ptrap moves. It forgoes the luck moves in Attract/Confuse Ray for a surefire counter. You can almost say it stops sleep trapping (almost, not quite, protect blocks Encore hence outpps it quicker).

Ultimately, it's a real waste to use against cursers, unless your Raichu can switch into said curser reliably (it shouldn't be able to), the curser is your only threat (in which case you're facing a bad team), AND you have no other use for Encore against said team. It's a great move, especially if something like Umbreon could learn it, but on Raichu, it's really a mixed bag. Raichu often switches into either Zapdos, Raikou, Blissey, Skarmory, and Umbreon. None of them really have moves worth Encoring. And an active Raichu isn't really a threat to anything.

Thanks for the detailed post.
I'll keep that in mind when I give GSC a go.

PS: The onsite analysis recommends a thunder dancing set? Yay or nay? Should I just stick to Encore + 3 attacks?

[Borat]

The only acceptable Raichu moveset on a competitive level is Thunderbolt, Toxic, Encore, Rest. But it really should only be used on med-slow paced teams running Spikes/Toxic.

I wouldn't really look into a team around Raichu, It doesn't work that way.

[420]

lol @ DPPer's minds being blown by 500+ turns.

I can't believe I've never read this thread before. Very informative, and decent warstory (although nothing special, at least you two knew what you were doing). Would 5* if I could.