(Gen 1) OU for a reason.

[Hipmonlee]

I dont see why Starmie would be better in the same position. Starmie with Blizzard is rubbish against Alakazam (worse than Alakazam is). Starmie with Surf is just as good against Eggy as Zam is (though this does depend on the Eggy). And Starmie with anything is utterly useless against Chansey while Alakazam is not.

Starmie does switch in easier against Alakazam, but once it does so it is unlikely to kill it itself..

Then Alakazam is much more useful against Snorlax and Tauros. With a much better chance of 2hkoing.

Alakazam is a support pokemon. The point of it is that your opponent needs it paralysed if he is going to be able to use his normal types to their full effect later in the game. So you should be using that as a way to paralyse his other fast pokemon that you need paralysed. IE Starmie and Alakazam.. And if they dont have an Alakazam, then ideally you can paralysed their starmie while keeping yours untouched. And then your paralysed Alakazam is a lot more useful than their paralysed Starmie because it will beat your opponents Chansey if given the opportunity.

And Alakazam takes sleep better because it is much more likely to survive a sleep than pretty much anything except Chansey..

Having said that, if the argument is Alakazam is better than Chansey, then that is hogwash..

Have a nice day.

[Borat]

Starmie hits other Starmies better, Starmie hits Egg better (or are you assuming it packs neither Surf nor Blizzard?), Tauros/Persian just the same, OHKO against Golems, etc.

Alakazam doesn't take sleep for that reason. It takes sleep because it doesn't have to switch out against any of the common sleepers, and is... less useful than Starmie/Chansey, both of which can do the same. Saying Alakazam takes sleep better is essentially the same as Alakazam makes for a better sacrifice. That's a strike against it if anything.

Having said that, the point of my argument is that Alakazam is inferior to Chansey/Starmie and should not be used unless both are already on your team and for whatever reason, you still need a Zam.

[420]

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

Starmie hits other Starmies better, Starmie hits Egg better (or are you assuming it packs neither Surf nor Blizzard?), Tauros/Persian just the same, OHKO against Golems, etc.

starmie may hit exeggutor harder, but exeggutor also hits starmie harder with mega drain and can beat it one on one using it. Meanwhile, any set alakazam runs usually beats exeggutor or forces it to explode, especially s-toss.

Originally Posted by Fat borat

Alakazam doesn't take sleep for that reason. It takes sleep because it doesn't have to switch out against any of the common sleepers, and is... less useful than Starmie/Chansey, both of which can do the same. Saying Alakazam takes sleep better is essentially the same as Alakazam makes for a better sacrifice. That's a strike against it if anything.

No, Borat. It takes sleep for exactly that reason. Saying otherwise is just being ignorant.

Having said that, the point of my argument is that Alakazam is inferior to Chansey/Starmie and should not be used unless both are already on your team and for whatever reason, you still need a Zam.

Chansey, yes, I would agree. Starmie, no. Alakazam and Starmie are different pokemon and are played differently. One does not simply outclass the other in terms of filling a specific niche.

[Vincento341]

For gengar... can't he learn Giga Drain instead of mega drain...
And golem... can't it learn explosion over selfdestruct...
Am I missing something? haha

[Borat]

starmie may hit exeggutor harder, but exeggutor also hits starmie harder with mega drain and can beat it one on one using it. Meanwhile, any set alakazam runs usually beats exeggutor or forces it to explode, especially s-toss.

Whoa whoa whoa... did you really just use 1v1 as a basis as to why Starmie < Alakazam in a matchup with Exeggutor?

No, Borat. It takes sleep for exactly that reason. Saying otherwise is just being ignorant.

No it doesn't. For all intents and purposes, sleep = OHKO in RBY, akin 5v5. No one lets something get slept with the intent of it waking up. Most players know which Pokemon they would like on their team get slept, usually the least important one. It's never Chansey, Tauros, or Starmie. Ever. It's usually the sleeper after its slept something, Gengar because it still blocks shit, or... Alakazam because whatever role it would've done, you have Chansey/Starmie. *gasp*

Alakazam and Starmie are different pokemon and are played differently. One does not simply outclass the other in terms of filling a specific niche.

Sure it does. Starmie is a better special sweeper. Plain and simple. There's no arguing that.

Alakazam is the better special wall. It's just too bad whatever advantages it has Chansey already negated.

I've never said merely replace Alakazam with Starmie for a better team, I said a team with Alakazam should be replaced with either Starmie or Chansey depending on the circumstances. So in this case, we can already assume Chansey is on the team, in which case the special walling duties are already fulfilled. And if it's any half decent team, it'll probably pack a few other "minor" special walls already (ie Exeggutor). But should you still need Alakazam, it's probably for its "offensive capabilities", in which case Starmie is totally better, so use that. Moreover, should you still need Alakazam for whatever broken record excuse, then it's somewhat acceptable to use it.

[waterwizard]

Alakazam actually creates a weak spot on the team if used early. He allows a sleeping Eggy to switch in and try at waking up. Or he allows awake Eggy to come in and use Sleep Powder. He also allows a Sing Chansey to switch in. He also allows Slowbro to switch in and set up. Alakazam is best used as an End-Game special sweeper. But I'd rather use Zapdos/Starmie/Slowbro/Jolteon/Lapras/Amnesialax for that. Or just a physical sweeper.

[SubSmokeX]

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

Starmie hits other Starmies better, Starmie hits Egg better (or are you assuming it packs neither Surf nor Blizzard?), Tauros/Persian just the same, OHKO against Golems, etc.

You gotta start looking at the end result rather than just what one attack does. It doesn't matter if Starmie and Chansey hit Exeggutor a little better than Alakazam. The end result is Exeggutor is gonna explode. So none of them are any better off.

Starmie doesn't beat normals as fast as Alakazam unless it has hydro pump. You wanna rely on a move with 80 accuracy and 8 pp?

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

Alakazam doesn't take sleep for that reason. It takes sleep because it doesn't have to switch out against any of the common sleepers, and is... less useful than Starmie/Chansey, both of which can do the same. Saying Alakazam takes sleep better is essentially the same as Alakazam makes for a better sacrifice. That's a strike against it if anything.

Yeah well 3 of us disagree with ya on that. And anyways most people let Gengar get put to sleep because it still takes explosion and like Zam it has a good shot at waking up. But yeah if I let Zam take sleep it would be because I think it has the best shot at surviving it.

Having said that, the point of my argument is that Alakazam is inferior to Chansey/Starmie and should not be used unless both are already on your team and for whatever reason, you still need a Zam.

I say Alakazam is as good as Chansey is and which one you should use depends on your play style.

[Crystal_]

Whoa whoa whoa... did you really just use 1v1 as a basis as to why Starmie < Alakazam in a matchup with Exeggutor?

Although Starmie can hit harder Eggy, eggy can still hit hard Starmie with MD or cripple it with Stun. Imo Starmie is only better than zam against Eggys with Double-Edge or Rest.

It's usually the sleeper after its slept something, Gengar because it still blocks shit, or... Alakazam because whatever role it would've done, you have Chansey/Starmie. *gasp*

Alakazam will wake up more often than not against Chansey, other zams, exeggutors without d-e or Gengars that do not want to explode and non-surf/hydro pump Starmie.
With Alakazam you are planing to stop (I now you wont beat it unless you are 1vs1 at the end, but you will scare it off after few psychics) Chansey if necessary, while Starmie can only hope taking the 24 tbolts without a ch or a fp.

So in this case, we can already assume Chansey is on the team, in which case the special walling duties are already fulfilled. And if it's any half decent team, it'll probably pack a few other "minor" special walls already (ie Exeggutor). But should you still need Alakazam, it's probably for its "offensive capabilities", in which case Starmie is totally better, so use that. Moreover, should you still need Alakazam for whatever broken record excuse, then it's somewhat acceptable to use it.

I understand what you mean, and I agree with most of what you said. However you are not saying here that Starmie is better than Alakazam as you are not even saying that Starmie is a minor-wall; and this is true because of its tbolt weakness.

Therefore, the part that I don't agree with is where you said that Starmie is better than Alakazam sweeping. Starmie can only sweep better underused pokes with boltbeam/water weaknesses. What abaut Tauros, Snorlax, Persian, Chasney! ... In addition ST does more than surf to Starmie and is unafected by spc falls (although i know it cannot ch).

Starmie advantages are Tbolting Bro (although STZam still annoys it and Starmie cannot avoid getting paralyzed), and in general hitting super-effectively otehr stuff that however have super-effective moves for Starmie too (Lapras, Starmie, Eggy [Gengar(zam is better here obviously)].
Starmie is obviously better against golem/rhydon but it needs a water move to OHKO them (and zam 2hkoes them almost always).

And Chansey being more useful than Alakazam is not always true (I explained it in my other post) and you should not start assuming that Chansey is in every team, because something that should be known is that it provides Tauros and Snorlax some turns to sweep, unlike Alakazam because it is faster and has a much more powerful and threatening move.

[Borat]

You gotta start looking at the end result rather than just what one attack does. It doesn't matter if Starmie and Chansey hit Exeggutor a little better than Alakazam. The end result is Exeggutor is gonna explode. So none of them are any better off.

The end result: Exeggutor does not switch into Starmie. Exeggutor switches into Alakazam. The thresholds are 84% vs 30%. The two are not the same. At least try to hide your bias.

You wanna rely on a move with 80 accuracy and 8 pp?

Certainly. The same way a lot of RBY players "rely" on CH, and advocates of Psychic "rely" on spc down, why wouldn't I rely on a move with three times the odds? It's merely a tenth less accurate than Blizzard, a move that's praised for its accuracy. Would you keep Golem in on Starmie just because it packs Hydro Pump? Certainly not, unless it were to die anyway. You'd switch to Snorlax or whatever (assuming Chansey's dead).

Gengar get put to sleep because it still takes explosion and like Zam it has a good shot at waking up.

Exactly. Gengar shouldn't be in the same sentence. It's the only Pokemon that serves a purpose asleep (Golem/Rhydon too, to a lesser extent). Alakazam is worthless. You're really going to risk a free switch to Tauros just to give your Zam a chance to wake up? That's poor play.

But yeah if I let Zam take sleep it would be because I think it has the best shot at surviving it.

Then you're a bad player.

I say Alakazam is as good as Chansey is and which one you should use depends on your play style.

No one in this topic has been bold/stupid enough to make that claim. And you certainly arent either. That bullshit "play style" excuse is a clear sign of uncertainly and distrust in your own claims.

Although Starmie can hit harder Eggy, eggy can still hit hard Starmie with MD or cripple it with Stun.

See above. That's irrelevent. An eggy after losing ~50 HP can no longer switch into Starmie, whereas it switches into Alakazam just fine for another 5 turns.

Alakazam will wake up more often than not against Chansey, other zams, exeggutors without d-e or Gengars that do not want to explode and non-surf/hydro pump Starmie.
With Alakazam you are planing to stop (I now you wont beat it unless you are 1vs1 at the end, but you will scare it off after few psychics) Chansey if necessary, while Starmie can only hope taking the 24 tbolts without a ch or a fp.

Same bullshit argument. You risk an active Tauros, akin any and all Pokemon you send out suffering massive damage, and the mild upside? Alakazam wakes up, opponent sends in Exeggutor, and guess who eats the sleep? Still zam. Well fuck. Then you make the same risk with Tauros again?

What abaut Tauros, Snorlax, Persian, Chasney!

Everything apart from Chansey, a Starmie with HP downs. 64% chance to 2HKO Tauros, and 20% to OHKO? Yes please. Alakazam has the mild edge over Persian, but even then, it's marginal because Starmie isn't exactly... slower than it. Furthermore, Persian's potential OHKO on Zam is ~80% higher than vs Starmie.

And Chansey being more useful than Alakazam is not always true

Funny guy. You're ignoring my argument on a whole. It doesn't matter if Alakazam's offense > Chansey and defense > Starmie.

Alakazam is MUCH better at taking paralysis for that exact reason. It stands in the face of all the common sleepers with ease and only really dies to Explosion. But guess what, a paralyzed Zam is no longer in the same offensive class as Starmie. That's the catch 22 flaw that Zam faces. But wait, then isn't Zam better in that specific role then, taking paralysis to wall sleep? Nope. Chansey is better at that. The only reason you don't think so is you would never sacrifice Chansey to Explosion like you would Alakazam. That statement in itself proves Chansey's superiority over Alakazam. Thus, Alakazam < Starmie/Chansey.


PS:

you should not start assuming that Chansey is in every team

This is probably the worst, most pathetic "I give up" fucking argument you could possibly make.

[Hipmonlee]

You can rely on 80% accuracy, or you could use Alakazam with 99.6% accuracy, and the chance of special drops and a higher ch rate.

Then you're a bad player.

Dont be ridiculous. If you arent considering the possibility that your pokemon may survive the sleep then you are just arbitrarily hurting yourself. Tauros is not guaranteed to survive to be the last pokemon on your opponents team, if all physical attackers are dead a sleeping Alakazam is massively more useful than a sleeping Starmie.

Basically, the key difference between Starmie and Alakazam is that Alakazam can beat Chansey, and Starmie cant. Chansey is better than both, no doubt, but for that reason, I much prefer Alakazam to Starmie. It has a chance of getting past it and actually hitting some other pokemon with paralysis.

Have a nice day.

[Borat]

Consider the possibility, certainly, but that possibility will not dictate who gets put to sleep. A Pokemon's individual merits in a given battle should determine who gets slept, and it should far outweigh that tiny nipple of a chance that "Alakazam just might wake up, not turning the battle into a 5v5 after all".

"Can" is a weak word. Starmie "can" beat Chansey too.

Starmie beats Egg. Your turn.

[Hipmonlee]

Well I wouldnt suggest that you should never let Starmie or Chansey get put to to sleep. Alakazam is also more likely to get put to sleep than Starmie because it is more useful early on in the battle. As it still has some usefulness after being paralysed. But there is a strong likelihood that in a given battle that you will want to let alakazam be slept as you expect the end of the battle to be some kind of special war, in which case alakazam is probably the ideal pokemon to have asleep.

Alakazam "is far more likely to" beat chansey. Can is a strong enough word in the circumstances, I dont think my meaning was unclear, you are just being a pedant.

Alakazam beats Egg.

Actually I dont know why we are taking turns here, the advantages of the two pokemon are pretty obvious. Starmie has its special moves and better defense, Alakazam has the special defense, lack of thunderbolt weakness, and the really, really strong stab move. I generally strongly prefer to use Alakazam if I have a choice between the two mostly on account of the everywhereness of Chansey. This is probably partly because I was never a fan of getting into freeze wars and found that the classic paralyse and sweep method was a lot more effective..

Have a nice day.

[Lucalibur]

Originally Posted by Fat Vincento341

For gengar... can't he learn Giga Drain instead of mega drain...
And golem... can't it learn explosion over selfdestruct...
Am I missing something? haha

giga drain didnt existed in RBY.

his gengar already got explosion, and there is a rule that no pokemon can have the same moves like that.

oh zam, one of the pokemons i used to hate most simply because he look like a pedo, both zam and starmie work in different ways and should not be compared like that, i cant say anything someone else didnt said yet, so i am only going to agree with hipmonlee on what he said.

[Borat]

The odds that letting Chansey/Starmie get slept is the right move are about the same odds that an Alakazam has of beating a Chansey. Generally, from personal experience, there's never a "special" ending if something like Chansey/Zam gets put to sleep. There should always be a physical threat ending should those two be asleep, or your opponent's doing it wrong.

"Far more likely", okay. Far more likely than not very fucking likely at all isn't better. Does it really matter that you have a 4% chance of beating Chansey vs a 1% chance? And 4% could be a wildly overestimate once you factor in 16 PP, potential switches to stuff like Egg/Starmie that wall you all day, other potential switches to Zapdos/Snorlax/whatever just to reset -spc counter, needing psychic for something else, etc etc etc.

I don't think my meaning was unclear, you are just being a pedant. Starmie beats Egg in ways Zam doesn't.

[Crystal_]

A paralyzed Zam will almost always beat Chansey 1on1, and the Chansey switch after the spc fell(s) can be used to para Zam/Starmie/Eggy, ST Eggy/Zam/Starmie, or Psychic/para any physical attacker.

Also Alakazam can come into Chansey all day, and if you are para you will stall Chansey out always, if you don't want to waste Psychic. And Chansey, paralyzed or not, will be forced to switch out as well.

And Alakazam, believe it or not, is probably the best "team shower" in RBY.

[Borat]

1v1 is the worst possible argument you could make in the game of pokemon.

[Cyrene]

Because this goes on for 3 pages, maybe it would be best to recap?

Starmie hits Eggy harder. Alakazam hits Chansey harder.
(More times than not, Chansey stalls out both so I'm not sure if that's an argument.)
Starmie has far superior coverage; Alakazam has higher Speed (and therefore crit rate) and higher Special but is limited to Psychic as his only attack.
A slept Starmie is almost useless; a slept Alakazam can at least take a couple of hits (not sure if that's even relevant though).
Chansey can take Special hits better than both of them.

In this argument, I think the only Alakazam that might have any merit over both Starmie and Chansey is KinesisZam. Kinesis forces more switches than Starmie can and can therefore more adequately spread paralysis. Just a thought.

[green_flash]

pardon me but in case you, crystal_, are the same crystal_ from nbs, i'd suggest you to avoid discussing about rby battling when you're an almost worthless rbyer. no offense really, 90% of the people thinking they are playing rby on nbs are just jerks trying out their luck.

Originally Posted by Fat Cyrene

bla

in case just a single one of those alakazam != starmie conditions is true, then we have not what in game theory is called a strictly dominated strategy, and as such starmie shouldn't be preferred to alakazam "every single time", which is what this whole topic's about.


borat, logic is extraordinary strong in modeling, though it is the model that should describe the truth, not the truth forced into a model because you see it as highly consistent. generations of battlers in rby used to go zam; zam has always been quite an rby staple, and metagamization is a rational process - especially when considered through so many years, just like evolution becoming a rational process in million years because of natural selection (in our case, selection is even more competitive). we couldn't deny there's something so useful in alakazam, that people preferred it to starmie under certain circumstances, although we do not exactly see what is it. despite the consistency of your model, it is being denied by truth.

[Alan]

Why is this argument still going? Pirotechnix summed it up on page 2 with his post. You can't really compare the three of them because they all serve different roles on the teams.

I'm not the most experienced RBY player, I have only dabbled in it, but Pirotechnix is right. Zam is by far the best lead of the RBY metagame, it outpaces every lead not named Alakazam and can paralyze it or KO it. Chansey is the best wall with its massive HP and huge Special. Starmie is the best sweeper (although I don't even like that word in RBY since pretty much every pokemon is an offensive pokemon, some are just bulkier than others) in the RBY metagame, it has a superior movepool and therefore better type coverage.

As for the 1v1 arguments, those are fucking stupid. If pbp1v1 then nobody is going to fucking leave in the pokemon that is getting beat. Its like, I'm not going to leave in an unsubbed Rhydon against a Persian, because it almost certaintly has Bubblebeam which will KO, or at the least, threaten me. So, if you are going to argue for a pokemon's superiority, you must argue with all aspects in mind, not 1v1.

[green_flash]

Originally Posted by Fat Alan

You can't really compare the three of them because they all serve different roles on the teams.

that makes me laugh. the whole topic is about "is there a significant difference between zam and starmie in order not to consider the first strictly inferior to the second one?"; if the answer was so clear as you pointed out, we would have gladly avoided three pages of discussion.

[Borat]

Zam was OU in GSC too. It sucks there.

Smeargle was OU too. It sucks.

Blissey was the definition of OU. It sucks.

Scizor/Jumpluff were both at one point OU, they both suck.

People propagate the use of certain OU Pokemon without really questioning a better alternative, not caring what purpose it served and why it was OU in the first place. When you go through the pages, you'll see the inconsistencies against me. You have several blatant declarations of Starmie being the better sweeper, yet you have a couple people fervently argue that because of Alakazam's defensive prowess, it turns out to be the bigger offensive threat, despite not being able to consistently damage >3/6 of the opposing team (Starmie, Egg, Chansey, Zam). Make up your mind, which is it? Or is it that "situational" bullshit argument? And for all intents and purposes, Alakazam is not killing Chansey, certainly not with high enough odds to really matter or even warrant a proper argument.

Kinesis Zam. That's something Starmie can't do. But that relegates Alakazam to defensive duties. In which case it would have to compete with Chansey. In which case we've already established (I hope), that it's inferior. That's to say, would you use Kinesis Zam without first having Chansey already on your team? No. Moving on.

And people still forget, I'm not saying don't use Alakazam, Alakazam serves no purpose, I'm just saying don't use Alakazam without pinpointing its role, then using the better alternative in Starmie/Chansey. If you still need someone to fill the same role, then use Alakazam. In Hipmonlee's very first post on this page, he mentions the use of Alakazam when Starmie/Chansey is on both your, and their team. Why? That's not a suitable example for an argument against me.

And finally, "situational" is not an acceptable argument. It's the most pathetic excuse for "well I guess you're right, but my e-ego is far too great to admit defeat". Rhydon has a better chance of sweeping Jolteon than Tauros, but will you deny that Tauros is better? It's not that hard to weigh-in on the pros-cons of individual pokemon as a whole.

[Hipmonlee]

Oh, I forgot about this thread when I had computer issues..

Anyway, what I had been meaning to say was that when Chansey comes in against Starmie it has free reign, it can do what it wants. Trying to force Chansey to even softboiled with Starmie is all but impossible.

With Alakazam, you can actually accomplish something. You can even get as far as forcing Chansey to switch, it's actually pretty likely. Once that happens its a chance to paralyse the switched in pokemon.

Also in that example in my first post, having Starmie doesnt matter. Because if you are trading par Zam for par Starmie, par Zam is a far better pokemon.

And as for Zam being 4% likely to beat Chansey, a paralysed Zam beats Chansey pretty much every time.

So the problem becomes: make the trade, so your starmie is paralysed, and you now have a pokemon that your Chansey cant beat. Or, dont make the trade, and have to deal with a pokemon faster than anything on your team, that your only way of beating is to freeze it, or to risk it KOing one of your physical pokes.

The problem with relying on freezing against Alakazam, is it puts you in the position of weakness. You are forced to fire off the same attack over and over again, while Alakazam can do as it pleases. Especially if you are playing with Freeze Clause. But either way, every ice beam that hits Alakazam is an icebeam that doesnt hit Chansey.

Alakazam just has so much more versatility than Starmie. Honestly, special sweeping is basically a waste of time, when I want a sweeper, I'd much rather use Lapras.

Have a nice day.

[Borat]

And as for Zam being 4% likely to beat Chansey, a paralysed Zam beats Chansey pretty much every time.

Only in 1v1.

Rest of the top half has been said and dismissed.

Assume Alakazam gets paralyzed, probably by Chansey. I don't see where you're going with the non-paralysis situation. No one plays to freeze Zam... what?

Versatility in that it forces Chansey to switch at most 3 times (not counting Kinesis), assuming every Psychic hits Chansey? Or the part that it hits "most" (excluding Starmie, Jynx, Egg, etc) other OU decently hard, about the same as or less than Starmie? I don't think "higher" CH rate is a viable argument. Really.

Enjoy Lapras. That's personal "preference". Just like how some "prefer" Persian over Tauros.

[waterwizard]

Alakazam can beat Chansey or force a switch to Eggy. Starmie cannot. That is about the only advantage Zam has at all. That and beating Persian more confidently than Starmie. I think one could argue that Jolteon is better than Alakazam.

Also, Green Flash, have I ever seen you on NBS... I think perhaps you're full of it ;)

[Hipmonlee]

Persian is a worse pokemon than Tauros.

One vs one doesnt matter. It turns Alakazam into a Chansey counter. You will have to switch something other than Chansey into my Alakazam. Either way its far better from my perspective than if I used Starmie, in which case you wont have to do anything.

People do play for the freeze on Zam too, because it's the only way to beat it with a Chansey.

I assumed you were playing to freeze Alakazam, because you said Chansey beats Zam (you also used the ridiculous figure of 4%, which either way is not the case). Which it doesnt do unless you do play for the freeze.

If you could direct me to the dismissal of the top half, I will explain why said dismissal is completely wrong if you like..

Have a nice day.