CAP Revisions Playtesting

[Gothic Togekiss]

Originally Posted by Fat Crunchatize Me

SLEEP POWDER + DRAGON DANCE IS ILLEGAL

or at least it should be due to egg groups, but I've faced it on the ladder :(.

That and no one within the Monster nor Dragon group learns Stun Spore for that matter. Now this could be fixed by either moving Stun Spore and Sleep Powder into Pyroak's learn-up movepool or turning Pyroak's egg group into Monster/Plant or Monster/Ground.

BTW, do you need to use that sprite update jar file to update yourself with the changes or that only implies towards new CAP sprites?

[SgtWoodsy]

Originally Posted by Fat Gothic Togekiss

BTW, do you need to use that sprite update jar file to update yourself with the changes or that only implies towards new CAP sprites?

That's only the sprites. The changes to the CAPs should automatically happen when you open up the Team Builder on the server.

[Zari]

Been testing out Flash Fire oak, specifically in the lead slot. Using a set of

Careful Nature @ Lefties

Flash Fire

168 HP / 68 Def / 252 SpD / 20 Spe

~Rock Slide
~Leaf Blade
~Sleep Powder
~Will-o-wisp / Stealth Rock

It's designed as an antilead, ohkoing lead Syclant with Rock Slide (2hko through sash). It deals a minimum of 89% to lead Strata with Leaf Blade, and is 3hko'd back with these evs (Modest strata 2hkos). Sleep powder is mostly for stratagem/other pyroak. The last slot is dependent on whether you already have SR support covered or not. WoW lets oak beat lead metagross/skarmory, burning both, but SR is nice on a lead.

The evs are pretty much self explanatory; 168 hp evs hits 417 HP, a lefties number +1, so oak can come into SR 5 times instead of 4. 252 SpD is to cushion paleo waves and draco meteors. 20 Spe lets oak outspeed both lead gross (8 Spe) and spiker skarmory (16 Spe). The rest was placed in Def to help take syclant megahorns.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Zari

Been testing out Flash Fire oak, specifically in the lead slot. Using a set of

Careful Nature @ Lefties

Flash Fire

168 HP / 68 Def / 252 SpD / 20 Spe

~Rock Slide
~Leaf Blade
~Sleep Powder
~Will-o-wisp / Stealth Rock

It's designed as an antilead, ohkoing lead Syclant with Rock Slide (2hko through sash). It deals a minimum of 89% to lead Strata with Leaf Blade, and is 3hko'd back with these evs (Modest strata 2hkos). Sleep powder is mostly for stratagem/other pyroak. The last slot is dependent on whether you already have SR support covered or not. WoW lets oak beat lead metagross/skarmory, burning both, but SR is nice on a lead.

The evs are pretty much self explanatory; 168 hp evs hits 417 HP, a lefties number +1, so oak can come into SR 5 times instead of 4. 252 SpD is to cushion paleo waves and draco meteors. 20 Spe lets oak outspeed both lead gross (8 Spe) and spiker skarmory (16 Spe). The rest was placed in Def to help take syclant megahorns.

Why are you using Rock Slide when Pyroak has STAB on Flamethrower, which hits everything you mentioned much, much harder (and 10% burn can also KO through Syclant's Sash)? It also hits non-Flash Fire Pyroak harder than Rock Slide.

[Rising_Dusk]

Rock Slide is just to beat other Pyroak leads, though Fire Punch is better with his given attack stat being higher than his SpA.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

Rock Slide is just to beat other Pyroak leads, though Fire Punch is better with his given attack stat being higher than his SpA.

Flamethrower is still the better move even with the smaller SpA because of the higher Base Power and the nature of its targets. Though really, the Nature isn't helping here. A neutral nature might actually be warranted here.

Fire Punch vs. Standard Lead Gross (No Occa Berry): 134 - 158, 36.8% - 43.4%

Flamethrower vs. Standard Lead Gross (No Occa Berry): 168 - 200, 46.2% - 54.9%.

You have to remember that not all targets are equal. Even on a target like Lucario (a functional stand-in for Clant defensively)

Fire Punch vs. SD Lucario: 224 - 266, 79.7% - 94.7%

Flamethrower vs. SD Lucario: 204 - 242, 72.6% - 86.1%.

Both of these are 2HKOs. If you removed the negative nature: 228 - 270, 81.1% - 96.1%.

Meaning the only reason Flamethrower wouldn't be flat-out superior to Fire Punch on that set is the reducing nature.

Though in all honesty I'd recommend to Zari the set use an Atk reducing nature (Calm) with Wood Hammer to KO Strata instead of Leaf Blade, which allows the normal-powered Flamethrower to comfortably 2HKO what it needs to. Occa Berry carrying Gross still won't be taken out I don't think, but you'll reliably 2HKO every variant.

[Rising_Dusk]

Lead strata carry sash, so leaf blade is preferable in that case as it'll always be a 2HKO and the recoil will cause you to be 2HKOd as well by Paleo Wave. Your points on Flamethrower are good ones, I agree with you there.

You could probably get away with a -Spe nature, since you're not aiming to outrun any of the leads you're facing.

[Umbreon Dan]

Swampert uses a -Spe nature; i think it's appropriate here as well.

i'm debating on the inclusion of a lead set in the analysis. certainly the only reason to use such a set would be for Stealth Rock, so that's automatic. after that, i need to see a good reason to run Flash Fire with Flamethrower + Leaf Blade instead of just going with the more powerful Rock Head. Will-o-wisp seems kind of silly to me, when so many leads are running Lum or Taunt...

[Rising_Dusk]

Lead Strata, Roserade, Azelf, Aerodactyl, and Syclant all use a Sash. Lead Metagross uses an Occa Berry. I can't think of anything else common that I've seen that runs a Lum Berry in the lead slot mostly due to either being not bulky enough to survive a OHKO or particularly weak to something and meriting a type-reduction berry. (Shuca Berry Heatran leads)

Also, all of the common leads are 2HKOd between Leaf Blade and Flamethrower (including Aerodactyl, and Rock Slide only has a 10% chance to 2HKO you back) or crippled by Will-o-wisp (You resist Bullet Punch and Meteor Mash, EQ is neutral and can't even 3HKO you even before being burned, and Explosion deals 69.2 - 81.5% to Pyroak after burn). Metagross only wins if he explodes as soon as he sees you, and even then he doesn't get SR up.

Also, this is the set I'm running:

Pyroak @ Leftovers
EVs: 228 HP / 32 Def / 248 SpD
Nature: Sassy (+SpD, -Spe)
Ability: Flash Fire
- Leaf Blade
- Flamethrower
- Will-o-wisp
- Earthquake

I am still convinced that as an Anti-Lead - not as a typical lead - SR isn't that valuable. In general, all of the leads he threatens are able to kill him before he can kill back if he takes a turn to SR. There are also way better choices for a slow SR lead than Pyroak, most notably Metagross, so we should play to Pyroak's strengths here. He also needs EQ with Flash Fire because it turns him into the perfect Heatran counter at any stage of the game. With a neutral attack nature, EQ OHKOs Heatran 100% of the time after SR damage. The 32 leftover EVs can be put in attack to guarantee the 2HKO on Aerodactyl leads, or you can put them in defense to soak physical hits a bit better. I've tried with both, and generally its up to personal preference.

[Plus]

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

Also, this is the set I'm running:

Pyroak @ Leftovers
EVs: 228 HP / 32 Def / 248 SpD
Nature: Sassy (+SpD, -Spe)
Ability: Flash Fire
- Leaf Blade
- Flamethrower
- Will-o-wisp
- Earthquake

I am still convinced that as an Anti-Lead - not as a typical lead - SR isn't that valuable. In general, all of the leads he threatens are able to kill him before he can kill back if he takes a turn to SR. There are also way better choices for a slow SR lead than Pyroak, most notably Metagross, so we should play to Pyroak's strengths here. He also needs EQ with Flash Fire because it turns him into the perfect Heatran counter at any stage of the game. With a neutral attack nature, EQ OHKOs Heatran 100% of the time after SR damage. The 32 leftover EVs can be put in attack to guarantee the 2HKO on Aerodactyl leads, or you can put them in defense to soak physical hits a bit better. I've tried with both, and generally its up to personal preference.

Perhaps I'm quite out of my league to say this, but considering you've probably had about 3 versions of the lead, possibly more, perhaps this Pyroak is more of an anti-team lead than an anti lead? This looks quite gimmicky for a lead of all things, maybe you could show us some logs of your battles when it succeeded and gave you some wins. Personally I am not convinced that this is an excellent lead as it doesn't really prevent anything for most leads to achieve their purpose, if it really is an anti lead. If I ran Metagross I'd still go for the SR and switch out, I wouldn't particularly be concerned about getting burned as long as I get my rocks and you don't. I am still fully capable of exploding, same applies for Heatran who could potentially sr and explode in your face, and Azelf. What about Syclant who could set up 2 layers of spikes easy? Suicide leads like these don't care if you beat them so long as they have achieved their goal to support their team for the win.

So yeah. Mind supplying some logs that would show how this Pyroak fares against teams that aren't really weak to a lead Pyroak? This IS cap. I honestly can't trust any anti-lead from such a minuscule ladder unless it really is an anti lead, not an anti-team pokemon who just so happens to fuck a certain team over 6 times up the ass, especially something that seems pretty odd, and could have been modified 3 times for reasons unknown.

I would have no problem switching into something like Revenankh or Fidgit, and setting up some Spikes, or simply using Bulk Up. After all, what's the backside to it? You're not getting SR up or putting me in a tight spot, so I might as well just set up on that lead anyways. I could give a shit about Burn or an EQ without any attack ev/nature support on Fidgit, and you could have fun dealing with Spikes/TS then.

Case in point: It's awesome that you can 2hko most leads with this, so can many other leads in the lead game, or most glass sweepers with sashes anyways, but the thing that makes or breaks an anti lead is that it not only beats the lead but shifts the advantage to your side. Calcs don't sway me, good logs do.

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I agree with Plus that the set isn't really an anti lead. It's just a Defensive set with attack options coupled with WoW, kind of like Rotom. It just has good coverage and can take on many Pokemon. The thing is, it can probably take on them at any time, and you're just using it as a lead because it works. Anti leads usually block out certain moves of other leads, and can usually kill them with specific sets. But if it works, hell, it works.

[Rising_Dusk]

Never really thought about it being anti-team rather than anti-lead. Part of the real value as a lead is that it immediately threatens the most common leads I see. I'll try it out in a different position in the team and see how it stacks up - while getting some logs that don't suck because I suck.

[Umbreon Dan]

Just as a heads-up:

As of right now, Sleep Powder and Stun Spore are illegal with Dragon Dance.

As in: they're physically illegal on the server, no reason to try. This was decided during the revisions.

[Korski]

As a lead, Pyroak should play very similarly to Swampert, but with better overall offenses (for the lead game) and defenses balanced out by a nasty SR weakness and fewer resistances to play around, somewhat limiting its overall usefulness later on in the match unless you carry a Spinner to clear away hazards. Just like Swampert, it can reliably set up SR on most common leads and 2HKO the Azelf/Aero Taunt leads that can halt this strategy. Rock Head is still advantageous, as Flash Fire wouldn't really be useful on lead Pyroak except to wall Heatran/Infernape leads better. It makes sense to run -Spe, but I see no reason not to try and outrun standard 8 EV Metagross so it can't set up SR and Explode on you if you choose to attack right off the bat. I was thinking something like this:

Pyroak @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Rock Head
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe

Stealth Rock
Fire Blast
Wood Hammer
Earthquake / Roar / Protect / Sleep Powder

I've laddered with this lead a few times under an alt (the rest of the team members have been admittedly hastily thrown together, but I just wanted to test the lead) and it's been fairing pretty well overall. Bold + Wood Hammer / EQ looks dumb, I know, but the drop in attack really only loses you the guaranteed OHKO on Swampert (down to ~53%) and not too much else, while maintaining SpA and Spe allows you to 2HKO standard Metagross before it KOs you, something that should be considered. Due to Pyroak's higher BP STABs, it hits harder than your standard Mixpert, athough with obviously different targets.

I slashed in a bunch of things for the fourth slot because they're all pretty useful. Earthquake is a generally useful coverage move and gives you a clean 2HKO on Heatran and Infernape while neither can 2HKO if you're running Leftovers (Heatran technically can w/ FB + Explosion, but then it won't get SR up). Roar and Protect are carryovers from Swampert's lead set and can work in much the same fashion, although Pyroak's SR weakness and general lack of resistances limit its mid to late-game Phazing abilities somewhat. Sleep Powder is a cool option to put things like Swampert (or whatever Swampert switches out to except Fidgit), non-Lum Metagross, Smeargle, Roserade, Heatran or basically anything that doesn't run Taunt to sleep if you trust its accuracy. Since Metagross is the only common lead that can OHKO Pyroak (by Exploding), it's very likely you'll get a chance to get the move off and continue on from there. I've been using it with Leftovers, though, since Roserade and Smeargle leads don't really exist in CAP, but Lum is still an option if you want to be prepared for them for some reason.

Offensive Calcs:

...

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Offensive Calculations (Lead Meta):
Fire Blast vs. 252/0 Metagross: 64.8% - 76.4% (32.4% - 38.2% w/ Occa; 92% 2HKO) 2HKO
Fire Blast vs. 4/0 Roserade: 78.6% - 93.9% 2HKO
Fire Blast vs. 80/0 Jirachi: 59.8% - 70.4% 2HKO
Fire Blast vs. 4/0 Smeargle: 79.8% - 94% 2HKO
Fire Blast vs. 4/0 Kitsunoh: 85.4% - 101.3% 2HKO
Wood Hammer vs. 0/0 Azelf: 55.7% - 66% 2HKO
Wood Hammer vs. 4/0 Starmie: 106.1% - 126% OHKO
Wood Hammer vs. 252/0 Tyranitar: 55.4% - 65.8% 2HKO
Wood Hammer vs. 0/4 Colossoil: 78.1% - 91.9% 2HKO
Wood Hammer vs. 252/252+ Swampert: 92.1% - 109.9% 53% OHKO
Wood Hammer vs. 4/0 Aerodactyl: 57% - 67.5% 2HKO
Wood Hammer vs. 252/168 Hippowdon: 40% - 47.1% 3HKO
Wood Hammer vs. 4/0 Stratagem: 119.3% - 140.4% OHKO
Earthquake vs. 4/0 Heatran: 79% - 93.8% (39.5% - 46.9% w/ Shuca) 2HKO
Earthquake vs. 0/0 Infernape: 61.4% - 72.4% 2HKO

Offensive Calculations (general)
Wood Hammer vs. 156/96 Gyarados: 35.7% - 42.2% ~2HKO w/SR
Wood Hammer vs. 0/4 Gyarados: 44.4% - 52.6% 2HKO w/SR
-1 Wood Hammer vs. 156/96 Gyarados: 23.5% - 27.8% ~3HKO w/SR
-1 Wood Hammer vs. 0/4 Gyarados: 29.3% - 34.7% 3HKO w/SR
Earthquakevs. 252/0 Fidgit: 32% - 38.1% 3-4HKO
Earthquake vs. 4/0 Cyclohm: 33% - 39.1% 3HKO
...

Defensive Calcs

...

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236 Atk+ Metagross
Explosion 99.3% - 116.9%
Meteor Mash: 14.8% - 17.6%
Earthquake: 19.9% - 23.5%

252 SpA Roserade
Leaf Storm: 13% - 15.5%
HP Fire: 17.8% - 21%
HP Rock: 65.8% - 78.1%

252 Atk Jirachi
Iron Head: 8.9% - 10.5%
U-turn: 10.5% - 12.3%
Fire/Ice Punch: 11% - 13.2%

4 Atk / 252 SpA Azelf
Psychic: 33.8% - 40%
Fire Blast: 30.1% - 35.6%
Explosion: 71% - 83.8%

252 SpA Starmie
Hydro Pump: 38.6% - 45.9%
Surf: 30.8% - 36.3%

252 Atk+ Tyranitar
Stone Edge: 60.3% - 71.2%
+1 Stone Edge: 89.5% - 105.9%

252 Atk Colossoil
LO Earthquake: 33.1% - 39.3%
LO Crunch/Sucker Punch: 26.7% - 31.5%

252 Atk Aerodactyl
Rock Slide: 34.7% - 41.1%

252 SpA Stratagem
Paleo Wave: 65.8% - 78.1%

252 SpA Heatran
Fire Blast: 46.6% - 54.8%
LO Fire Blast: 60.3% - 71.2%
Explosion: 53.4% - 63%

64 Atk / 252 SpA Infernape
Fake Out: 5.3% - 6.4%
Fire Blast: 39.7% - 46.6%
LO Fire Blast: 51.6% - 60.7%
Close Combat: 23.3% - 27.6%
LO Close Combat: 30.4% - 35.8%

252 Atk Kitsunoh
Shadowstrike: 18% - 21.5%

Gyarados
76 Atk +1 Waterfall: 29.7% - 35.2%; +2: 39.7% - 46.8%
252 Atk+ +1 Waterfall: 44.5% - 52.3%; +2: 59.1% - 69.9%
76 Atk +1 Stone Edge: 49.8% - 58.9%; +2: 66.2% - 78.1%
252 Atk+ +1 Stone Edge: 74% - 87.2%; +2: 98.2% - 116%

252 SpA Cyclohm
LO Draco Meteor: 63.2% - 74.7%
LO Hydro Pump: 36.1% - 42.7%

252 Atk Salamence
+1 LO Outrage: 63.2% - 74.7%
...

I'm getting somewhat tired of calcs, so I'll just leave it at that. You get the idea.