Move Combination Effectiveness Calculator

Diesel · Mar 7th, 2010, 5:37:55 AM

This idea is a bit ambitious, but it's something I think is at least worth taking into consideration.

Description: Basically it would be a "calculator" or table which would determine the effectiveness (4x, 2x, etc.) of a set of attacks against the Pokemon of a given tier. On the top of the x-axis, 1-4 moves (or move types) are selected, and on the y-axis are all of the defending Pokemon. In addition to the "Pokemon" column on the y-axis, there would just be the effectiveness multiplier for each type on each Pokemon in its own box.

Example:

Attacks: Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Blast.

Pokemon ...... Effectiveness

/

.... [2x] [0x] [.5x]

/

....... [.5x] [2x] [2x]

............... [.5x] [0x] [2x]
etc.
etc.
etc.

This example presents a couple situations that must be dealt with. First, it could be convenient to have Pokemon with identical typing share a row (depending on the on-site layout), but ability comes into play here, as shown by Bronzong being separate from Metagross and Jirachi. Therefore, an ability tab would be necessary for Pokemon with optional abilities that alter effectiveness (Miltank, Hariyama, Arcanine). Alternatively, the defending Pokemon could be sorted alphabetically or by usage. Although usage might be the most helpful of these sorting formats, it would require some maintanence, although this would really only be necessary for proven, significant changes in rank. Also there could be a hide button, so that a bunch of Pokemon could be hidden. This could come in handy if someone wanted to know which combination of moves works best against a certain group of pokes.

Purpose: For people who are extremely familiar with a given tier, this would probably not be the most valuable application, although it could still certainly come in handy. For example, people who have been playing UU consistently for a quite a while know what they are gaining and sacrificing when choosing between HP Fire and Ice for their Sceptile. However, it might not be so obvious to a new player. Similarly, it may be difficult for any player to determine what combination of two or three moves makes for the best neutral type coverage, especially when that combo is more "obscure" than something like Water / Ice / Electric (after 13 years of Pokemon I'm still never sure of the relationships between stuff like Bug, Poison, and Rock).

Basically I think this would have a lot of practical applications, especially for beginner and intermediate players, as well as those adapting to a new tier. I have no idea if this is something that would be difficult to create or not, as I know nothing about coding and all that fancy stuff. If this was explained poorly let me know.

pastel · Mar 7th, 2010, 9:09:38 AM

This would be a nice team building accesorie. xD

This could also be useful while playing in things like the Pokedraft Old man Reaver and DJXO9 are hosting, since you get to see your oponent's team, and you must find a way to beat it.

Coldcut · Mar 7th, 2010, 2:50:31 PM

I've made some crude attempts at this using Excel on my computer for when I started doing UU more, and I know it would definitely help if it could be made more efficient. I would love to help, but I know nothing about programming into websites.

cim · Mar 7th, 2010, 3:24:04 PM

For now, you can improvise with up to 6 type combinations at a time using the Marriland Team Builder. You put the pokemon you want to check moves with, then the type chart includes all the possible move types. Ignore the shading.

Diesel · Mar 7th, 2010, 3:38:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Chris is me

For now, you can improvise with up to 6 type combinations at a time using the Marriland Team Builder. You put the pokemon you want to check moves with, then the type chart includes all the possible move types. Ignore the shading.

I use this for defensive purposes, but if you want to do more than a dozen or so pokemon at a time it would be pretty inefficient, since that's not what it's designed for. Not to mention there is a lot of memorizing and ignoring of other types involved. IMO it would be worthwhile to make a way better program than that.

Hegna · Mar 7th, 2010, 5:31:30 PM

I assume you mean something like the coverage analysis here (I realize that has an outdated tier list), right?
If so, I do agree it would be nice to be able to see what different combinations hit for neutral, SE damage, etc.
It would be nice for smogon to have one, as waitingforseedot has a tier list stuck in early D/P (not sure exactly when) and doesn't include new tutor or egg moves.

Diesel · Mar 7th, 2010, 6:04:13 PM

Yea, I suppose it's similar to that, only much more in-depth.

cim · Mar 9th, 2010, 3:50:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Diesel

I use this for defensive purposes, but if you want to do more than a dozen or so pokemon at a time it would be pretty inefficient, since that's not what it's designed for. Not to mention there is a lot of memorizing and ignoring of other types involved. IMO it would be worthwhile to make a way better program than that.

tbh how hard is it to figure out yourself, really? play pokemon for a month and you can tell if dragon / fire will hurt scizor or not

Diesel · Mar 9th, 2010, 7:46:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Chris is me

tbh how hard is it to figure out yourself, really? play pokemon for a month and you can tell if dragon / fire will hurt scizor or not

You've either misunderstood what I'm getting at or you're just making a colossal oversimplification. Either way, it seems like you need to read the OP a little closer. I'm talking about a large-scale situation, not just a few pokemon.

And its obviously not as easy as it seems, because there are frequent instances of people making mistakes like this in C&C. If it was as easy as you claim, these mistakes would never happen. People often make the mistake of putting things like Psychic and Sludge Bomb on movesets for STAB, when they really just make for inferior coverage (these are people posting revamps btw, not just randoms in RMT). If they had this program to check their set with, they would realize "oh, that move is doing jack shit to the majority of the tier, let's see how T-bolt would fair..." and so on. There's also situations where you might want to find out how to hit for the best neutral coverage with just two attacks on powerful sweeper with Sub and Nasty Plot, or something like that. Not that easy to just figure out in your head when you're trying to hit dozens of Pokemon. Also bear in mind this is not aimed at the IPLs and Kevin Garretts of the site, it's aimed at intermediate players.

If it's not a good idea then it's not a good idea, but at least make a valid argument as to why it's not worth pursuing.

Aura Guardian · Mar 9th, 2010, 8:10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Diesel

If it was as easy as you claim, these mistakes would never happen.

No, those mistakes would still happen. Anyone who doesn't check the thing would make those mistakes, and how many people would check it? A few would outside the highly competent, but that would not dent the problem enough to be of use, would it? And the highly competent wouldn't really need it much (Ok, I admit it might speed things up for them a bit). So, I don't think it is really necessary.

Diesel · Mar 9th, 2010, 10:00:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Aura Guardian

No, those mistakes would still happen. Anyone who doesn't check the thing would make those mistakes, and how many people would check it? A few would outside the highly competent, but that would not dent the problem enough to be of use, would it? And the highly competent wouldn't really need it much (Ok, I admit it might speed things up for them a bit). So, I don't think it is really necessary.

I'm sorry, but this is the honestly worst post I've had directed at me in recent memory.

For one, you completely misinterpreted the section of my post you quoted. I said that if calculating effectiveness on a large scale was simple, nobody would be making such obvious mistakes in C&C. I was saying that in response to Chris is me was saying that it's easy to calculate, so the program was unnecessary. Then you proceeded to basically make part of my argument for me by saying "anyone who doesn't check the program would make those mistakes". lol.

Third, you say that only the highly competent would use this? I'd really love to know what exactly is preventing normal users from utilizing this.

***Aldaron**** · Mar 9th, 2010, 11:22:34 PM

Diesel, I HIGHLY recommend ignoring the negative sentiment in this thread. I can see what you are looking for and am looking forward to seeing more complete results!

Good job.

Engineer Pikachu · Mar 9th, 2010, 11:41:27 PM

Sounds like an extremely good idea. I, for one, have a lot of trouble when figuring out coverage things for gimmicks...

Diesel · Mar 10th, 2010, 2:12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Aldaron

Diesel, I HIGHLY recommend ignoring the negative sentiment in this thread. I can see what you are looking for and am looking forward to seeing more complete results!

Good job.

Thanks a ton for the vote of confidence, Aldaron, it means a lot. One more idiotic response to this and I probably would have raged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Engineer Pikachu

Sounds like an extremely good idea. I, for one, have a lot of trouble when figuring out coverage things for gimmicks...

You deserve thanks too. :P

cim · Mar 10th, 2010, 2:19:37 AM

As a consolation prize, I'll write something up in excel that effectively take's Serebii's Ultimate Type Chart and makes it so you can see what misses a neutral hit, what misses an SE hit, and which resists both STAB and is only touched neutrally by the secondary attacks. That's basically what you're looking into, right?

Diesel · Mar 11th, 2010, 2:45:13 PM

mas o menos. I'm going to confess I didn't even know you could do stuff like that in Excel :P

Tomoki · Mar 12th, 2010, 9:59:48 AM

I could make something like this pretty easily. I think a calculator where you enter four moves and then select a tier and it tells you what Pokemon in that tier resist all four and what pokemon are hit neutrally by all four would be better. There should also be an option for all tiers. For example, if you're using Tyranitar with: Stone Edge, Crunch, Dragon Dance, Taunt it would tell you what dual types resist it and that Steel resists both attacks and Water, Grass, Rock, Dark, etc are all neutral but instead of types it would display the pokemon. The biggest advantage it has over a chart is that on a chart you could miss a typing or, if you're new to competitive battling, you may see that Psychic/Ground is weak to Ground and Fire choose Earthquake over Fire Blast on something like Dragonite and you have Aqua Tail, Dragon Dance, and Dragon Claw as the remaining three moves.. It would have this moveset: Dragon Dance, Aqua Tail, Earthquake, Dragon Claw. Fire Blast is obviously a much better choice than Aqua Tail but someone new may forget that Bronzong is Psychic/Steel and not take Levitate into account. I know this was a terrible example, but my point is newcomers and even Shoddy users who've been battling for a long time may not remember every Grass Pokemon or every Poison/Dark type. A chart is obviously way less work though.

Diesel · Mar 12th, 2010, 6:08:12 PM

Well it needs to display more than just neutrality. Super Effective hits are key for fragile pokemon. And the table would display all the pokemon, not just all the type combinations (as pictured above), AND it has ability tabs for Levitate / Heatproof so you wouldn't have to worry about things like Bronzong.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding your post it's a bit convoluted. Are you sure you've read the OP thoroughly?

Mar 7th, 2010, 5:37:55 AM	#1
Diesel Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,945 Reach	Move Combination Effectiveness Calculator This idea is a bit ambitious, but it's something I think is at least worth taking into consideration. Description: Basically it would be a "calculator" or table which would determine the effectiveness (4x, 2x, etc.) of a set of attacks against the Pokemon of a given tier. On the top of the x-axis, 1-4 moves (or move types) are selected, and on the y-axis are all of the defending Pokemon. In addition to the "Pokemon" column on the y-axis, there would just be the effectiveness multiplier for each type on each Pokemon in its own box. Example: Attacks: Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Blast. Pokemon ...... Effectiveness / .... [2x] [0x] [.5x] / ....... [.5x] [2x] [2x] ............... [.5x] [0x] [2x] etc. etc. etc. This example presents a couple situations that must be dealt with. First, it could be convenient to have Pokemon with identical typing share a row (depending on the on-site layout), but ability comes into play here, as shown by Bronzong being separate from Metagross and Jirachi. Therefore, an ability tab would be necessary for Pokemon with optional abilities that alter effectiveness (Miltank, Hariyama, Arcanine). Alternatively, the defending Pokemon could be sorted alphabetically or by usage. Although usage might be the most helpful of these sorting formats, it would require some maintanence, although this would really only be necessary for proven, significant changes in rank. Also there could be a hide button, so that a bunch of Pokemon could be hidden. This could come in handy if someone wanted to know which combination of moves works best against a certain group of pokes. Purpose: For people who are extremely familiar with a given tier, this would probably not be the most valuable application, although it could still certainly come in handy. For example, people who have been playing UU consistently for a quite a while know what they are gaining and sacrificing when choosing between HP Fire and Ice for their Sceptile. However, it might not be so obvious to a new player. Similarly, it may be difficult for any player to determine what combination of two or three moves makes for the best neutral type coverage, especially when that combo is more "obscure" than something like Water / Ice / Electric (after 13 years of Pokemon I'm still never sure of the relationships between stuff like Bug, Poison, and Rock). Basically I think this would have a lot of practical applications, especially for beginner and intermediate players, as well as those adapting to a new tier. I have no idea if this is something that would be difficult to create or not, as I know nothing about coding and all that fancy stuff. If this was explained poorly let me know. Last edited by Diesel; Mar 10th, 2010 at 2:46:30 AM.

Mar 7th, 2010, 9:09:38 AM	#2
pastel Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,166 ]= .Thinking about life. =[	This would be a nice team building accesorie. xD This could also be useful while playing in things like the Pokedraft Old man Reaver and DJXO9 are hosting, since you get to see your oponent's team, and you must find a way to beat it. __________________ Join #sprite on IRC. Trade Thread \| FC: 1677-0013-4079 I can make banners for your trade thread. Send me a message if you want me to work. Please send me a PM if you are willing to help me with HGSS RNG abuse. I need help, thank you.

Mar 7th, 2010, 2:50:31 PM	#3
Coldcut Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 88	I've made some crude attempts at this using Excel on my computer for when I started doing UU more, and I know it would definitely help if it could be made more efficient. I would love to help, but I know nothing about programming into websites. __________________ A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. -Winston Churchill

Mar 7th, 2010, 3:24:04 PM	#4
cim dreams of ladybugs crushed forever Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 5,366 five years here and i can't change my custom title :(	For now, you can improvise with up to 6 type combinations at a time using the Marriland Team Builder. You put the pokemon you want to check moves with, then the type chart includes all the possible move types. Ignore the shading. __________________ i was nobody we're all a little bit strange, don't worry about it

Mar 9th, 2010, 11:22:34 PM	#12
*Aldaron Don't tell me what to do. Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,367	Diesel, I HIGHLY recommend ignoring the negative sentiment in this thread. I can see what you are looking for and am looking forward to seeing more complete results! Good job. __________________ beast mode

Mar 7th, 2010, 5:31:30 PM	#6
Hegna Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 363 Canada, ET	I assume you mean something like the coverage analysis here (I realize that has an outdated tier list), right? If so, I do agree it would be nice to be able to see what different combinations hit for neutral, SE damage, etc. It would be nice for smogon to have one, as waitingforseedot has a tier list stuck in early D/P (not sure exactly when) and doesn't include new tutor or egg moves.

Mar 7th, 2010, 6:04:13 PM	#7
Diesel Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,945 Reach	Yea, I suppose it's similar to that, only much more in-depth.

Mar 9th, 2010, 11:41:27 PM	#13
Engineer Pikachu take into the air... Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 6,123	Sounds like an extremely good idea. I, for one, have a lot of trouble when figuring out coverage things for gimmicks... __________________ [11:35] <Zarator> My friend always laugh at me for liking young girls [11:35] <Zarator> I am still within reasonableness^^ GP Team - VM for a check!

Mar 10th, 2010, 2:19:37 AM	#15
cim dreams of ladybugs crushed forever Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 5,366 five years here and i can't change my custom title :(	As a consolation prize, I'll write something up in excel that effectively take's Serebii's Ultimate Type Chart and makes it so you can see what misses a neutral hit, what misses an SE hit, and which resists both STAB and is only touched neutrally by the secondary attacks. That's basically what you're looking into, right? __________________ i was nobody we're all a little bit strange, don't worry about it

Mar 11th, 2010, 2:45:13 PM	#16
Diesel Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,945 Reach	mas o menos. I'm going to confess I didn't even know you could do stuff like that in Excel :P

Mar 12th, 2010, 9:59:48 AM	#17
Tomoki Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 35	I could make something like this pretty easily. I think a calculator where you enter four moves and then select a tier and it tells you what Pokemon in that tier resist all four and what pokemon are hit neutrally by all four would be better. There should also be an option for all tiers. For example, if you're using Tyranitar with: Stone Edge, Crunch, Dragon Dance, Taunt it would tell you what dual types resist it and that Steel resists both attacks and Water, Grass, Rock, Dark, etc are all neutral but instead of types it would display the pokemon. The biggest advantage it has over a chart is that on a chart you could miss a typing or, if you're new to competitive battling, you may see that Psychic/Ground is weak to Ground and Fire choose Earthquake over Fire Blast on something like Dragonite and you have Aqua Tail, Dragon Dance, and Dragon Claw as the remaining three moves.. It would have this moveset: Dragon Dance, Aqua Tail, Earthquake, Dragon Claw. Fire Blast is obviously a much better choice than Aqua Tail but someone new may forget that Bronzong is Psychic/Steel and not take Levitate into account. I know this was a terrible example, but my point is newcomers and even Shoddy users who've been battling for a long time may not remember every Grass Pokemon or every Poison/Dark type. A chart is obviously way less work though.

Mar 12th, 2010, 6:08:12 PM	#18
Diesel Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,945 Reach	Well it needs to display more than just neutrality. Super Effective hits are key for fragile pokemon. And the table would display all the pokemon, not just all the type combinations (as pictured above), AND it has ability tabs for Levitate / Heatproof so you wouldn't have to worry about things like Bronzong. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding your post it's a bit convoluted. Are you sure you've read the OP thoroughly?