Unexplored Pokemon Concepts

[bubbly]

(I'm hoping this is the right place, since it pertains to the CAP's)

All of the CAP's we've come up with so far have been, basically, just developments on the Standard metagame's archetypal pokemon categories (scout, lead, various sweepers, etc). In general, each of the CAP's has taken an existing idea (e.g. Fidgit as the entry hazard setter) and improved on it.

However, there are still a huge number of possibilities which exist within the game mechanics which are completely unexplored. By way of example, lets look at PP. A pokemon without PP for its moves is essentially a pokemon for you to bring in a DDancer etc on and proceed to sweep. So, why not make a pokemon which specialises in draining a pokemons PP? There are no guidelines forcing us to create pokemon along the same rough lines as, often, quite a few others.
Again, there are also a lot of potentially useful moves which don't see any use in high level play simply because there are no pokemon suited to utilising them, for instance the HP draining idea. Something which, through ability, maybe, used these to great effect would be, to me at least, a more innovative experiment than even the most recent concept, "Utility Counter". (Of course, these are all un-thought out ideas...)

Basically what I am trying to say is: Why, when we have such a great opportunity to test every possibility in the game, should we restrict our creativity so much?

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

I would say that it is because those are the archetypes that are voted for, many new niches are possible but many are hard to conceptualize and may not be possible. That being said the PP idea is interesting, but that too can just be by extension a stall based pokemon. My two cents, but I think what we are doing with these tried and true stereotypes is exploring our own metagame and how certain things (like scouts) affect them by creating the perfect scout.

[zarator]

The problem with this "unexplored concepts" is that they almost always involve the creation of a custom ability/move, which is something we try to limit as much as possible (in the entire history of CAP, for example, we only had 2 custom moves and 3 custom abilities). What do we learn, for example, by creating a HP draining Pokémon with, say, an ability that doubles the damage inflicted from HP draining moves or a 5 PP, 90 BP Bug move which drains the life of the opponent? Probably, we just learn that, within the limits of the game (i.e. using only existing types, existing moves, existing abilities etc), it is impossible to accomplish such a goal. Of course, it may be possible to create a Pokémon proficient into PP or HP draining with what gamefreak gave us, but with the moves and abilities available, it seems quite unlikely.

Most importantly, when we create a Pokémon, we want to focus on the metagame, not the Pokémon alone. "Utility counter", for example, has the potential to affect the entire metagame more than, say "HP Absorber". Utility counter may change the way people build their teams, along with, maybe, even the idea itself of "counter" or "check". A "HP Absorber" concept, on the contrary, is interesting only in itself. It is just a "Does it work?" kind of concept, which fail to make a relevant impact on the metagame aside from being another general attacker - with, maybe, a little twist.

[Mood4food77]

it's probably also why we don't see many "complimentary" pokemon either

for example, a grass/ghost type is the perfect complimentary to heatran

everything heatran is weak to, this grass/ghost type resists and everything the grass/ghost type is weak to, heatran resists (on smashboards, we're creating such a type called Lilibelle and this idea just came up)

while it may sound good on paper, if you make a bulky grass/ghost (like smashboards Lilibelle is) type, this combination of heatran and Lilibelle poke could be unbeatable

Lilibelle's stats are 121/55/127/90/103/64 (i told them the stats are too good and that at least one stat that isn't attack or speed should be lowered)

Let's see what types Heatran resists or is immune to:
Resists:
Bug
Dark
Dragon
Flying
Ghost
Grass
Ice
Normal
Psychic
Steel

Immune:
Fire
Poison

Now how about Lilibelle (smashboard's Grass/Ghost pokemon):
Resists:
Electric
Grass
Ground
Water

Immune:
Fighting
Normal

So, the combination of Heatran and Lilibelle resists 16 out of the 17 attack types (rock is the only type that hits both for at least neutral), and even then, most pokes who use rock attacks are weak to one of the moves (without taking into account Hidden Power) that either of these pokes could use (heatran can use ground, steel, fire, dark, and dragon attacks while Lilibelle can use grass, electric, ghost, and flying type attacks), and since all of these moves are special, they both hit harder on that side of the spectrum than on the physical side

so what this cap is trying to do is create a poke that will affect the entire metagame without breaking it, the poke could be incredibly useful (colossoil is a really good poke but not broken), it seems more like they're trying to make a "counter to a specific strategy"

for example, Cap10 is a counter to utility pokes (such as BPers, RSers, etc), this could change the pace of the metagame (making it faster) but more simplistic, we don't know yet but we're willing to find out

besides, creating a poke is fun

[Str0ngbad]

Um, just a nitpick. CAP10 is a Utility Counter meaning it can be built to counter various pokemon, especially offensive threats, not that it counters 'utility' pokemon.

[Korski]

Well to answer your question bluntly, there are a lot of aspects to Gamefreak's Pokemon that are complete shit. PP stalling is difficult in a metagame full of stat-uppers and Trick users. Sure, we could make a CAP with high defenses and Speed, Pressure, Poison Heal, and a Sub/Protect/Taunt strategy and make it an all-purpose Stallrein, but that won't mean it's a useful addition to the metagame or that it's even remarkably good in its own right. HP drainmon has been suggested for almost every CAP and has been shot down because the strategy fairly obviously isn't going to teach much about the metagame and isn't a concept one can get easily excited about. There are tons of examples of this, but the most important part is that these "unexplored concepts" are either too specific or just plain bad.

[Dominion]

I agree with Admiral. While we can say that the GF pokemon are complete shit, We have to remember that gamefreak isn't trying to make this game competitive. We are. We are the driving force behind the competitive scene and gamefreak will never acknowledge that, they will instead attempt to keep their ideas broad and fairly simple. As it should be. Because if they didn't, the game wouldn't sell as well. And we cannot blame a company for appealing to a broader audience while we clammer because, to put it bluntly, we are hardcore pokeman masters!

Because of that, we are limited to gamefreak's imperfections and flawed concepts. These concepts aren't flawed from a gameplay perspective, but they are for a competitive metagame. So, while we can curse and doom Gamefreak for making X or Y the way they are, we have to remember that Gamefreak isn't catering to us, instead they cater to the entire fanbase. They give us cool concept pokemon as well as extremely competitive (if not over powered) pokemon (Garchomp). So we work with what we get and occasionally the concept that wasn't originally intended to be powerful becomes competitive and that becomes something interesting, such as Bibarel useage in Ubers. Or the gimmicky baton passing smeargle teams.

Thats why we invent new pokemon to see how we can make these unique concepts work in a competitive sense, and not a "cool" or "selling point" pokemon. so while certain concepts are cool ,we have to remember that we are bound to always fit within Gamefreak's limits whether on purpose or jsut because we have adapted the metagame to be the way it is.

[bubbly]

zarator, yeah, that is probably the main problem. My personal thinking, though, is that existing move restrictions shouldn't really limit the original idea, just how we build on that. Still, trying to create as few new moves and abilities as possible tends to limit the number of really original concepts we can come up with

However, although I was just using HP drain as an example, I think you're wrong to say that such a thing wouldn't affect the metagame in a big way. I'm going to create a hypothetical ability for this supposed HP drain pokemon; lets say that all draining moves recover twice as much HP. Now, assuming that it has a lovely typing (Dark/Fighting would be great, for instance!) and the necessary stat spread to both do sufficient damage and also take hits well enough, I can already see some very interesting impacts on the metagame. Firstly, relatively weak attackers are going to drop in popularity somewhat because this could just wall and kill them. Then, this must also lead to an increase in popularity of high damage pokemon and offensive stat-upping to do the damage all at once. Stalling teams would probably take a small hit in popularity as well.
Thats just an example, but I think its wrong to say such a concept wouldn't effect the metagame much.

Admiral Korski, I think everyone's getting too bogged down in the specifics of the two very rough ideas I gave. You say that Trick and stat boosts would destroy a PP stall? One, I can't think of many stalling pokemon which don't have to contend with stat boosters in some way, whether with Haze, Roar, or some other method. A PP stalling pokemon would probably carry Taunt. There is quite some risk if a similar pokemon was invented in it being set up on if you're not careful, but equally, the thing would present numerous set up opportunities for your own team.

[Banryu]

I feel that Admiral Korski and Dominion mostly have this subject covered with why certain things aren't proposed for CAP.

Having said that, however, I WOULD like to see some more gimmicky Normal-types-- the type that is basically comprised of all-gimmicks. Things like Dunsparce, Blissey, Togekiss, and to a more radical extent, Smeargle, Kecleon, and Ditto, are some of the most interesting Pokemon out there, in my personal opinion. I personally would like to see the CAP Project come up with its own Normal-type gimmick Pokemon, albeit one that can be used in competive play (like, for instance, Smeargle).

[bubbly]

Sure, there are going to be lots of concepts which are just unworkable.
E.g., if there was some way to trap a pokemon in play for longer than the lifespan of the trapping pokemon, then even a suicide type thing (e.g., switch into a choice bander, trap them and then use Memento, in comes Azelf / Salamence etc).

Banryu, I see nothing wrong with "gimmicky" pokemon in general, although I don't really get why Togekiss is gimmicky ; unlike Dunsparce it would still be good even without Flinch from Serene Grace. Why should things like these be restricted, one, to the normal type, and two, typically, to UU?

[tennisace]

This thread has gotten really off topic. Lets get this clear: what is being discussed is "How specific/general could we make concepts and still have them function in the OU metagame?" We shouldn't get into specific concepts, unless you want to use a brief example.

[bubbly]

Thanks tennisace. I do understand that pokemon with created abilities and moves are going too far...