(Archive) Small Subjective Changes Thread

[A2ZOMG]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/yanmega

On Other Options, I just thought I would point out, Giga Drain has its uses on the Choice set. Specs Boosted Giga Drain with Tinted Lens gets some fairly decent recovery value, which might be important to consider when Yanmega probably is losing health mainly on the switch in (either due to Stealth Rock, or coming in on random Close Combats). It's not an amazingly durable pokemon, but is physical defenses at least are enough to take a few hits that it isn't weak against.

As an added bonus, it does superior damage to those rock/ground, water/ground, and water/rock types that are present in the underused environment.

[Legacy Raider]

Originally Posted by Fat A2ZOMG

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/yanmega

On Other Options, I just thought I would point out, Giga Drain has its uses on the Choice set. Specs Boosted Giga Drain with Tinted Lens gets some fairly decent recovery value, which might be important to consider when Yanmega probably is losing health mainly on the switch in (either due to Stealth Rock, or coming in on random Close Combats). It's not an amazingly durable pokemon, but is physical defenses at least are enough to take a few hits that it isn't weak against.

As an added bonus, it does superior damage to those rock/ground, water/ground, and water/rock types that are present in the underused environment.

Noted.

[A2ZOMG]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/arceus

On Physical Ghost Arceus, why is Shadow Claw used over Judgement?

My math for this game is not very good, but from rough calculations, it seems Swords Dance boosted Judgement on the Ghost set (which gets further boosted by Spooky Plate and STAB) only falls 4 base power short compared to a Swords Dance Life Orb Shadow Claw + crit on the Extreme Killer. LO + SD Shadow Claw (without crit) is said to usually 2HKO Giratina (assuming Leftovers right?). It seems Judgement backed by a Swords Dance on the Ghost set would likely 1HKO Giratina, when you consider the massive damage being done before Leftovers is factored in.

It seems the only advantage of Shadow Claw is bypassing attack drops/enemy defense ups or something like that on crit...or something. Shadow Claw also has 5 more base PP, which could matter in stall wars...not that anything is really going to stall out Ghost Arceus.

[EspyJoel]

Judgement is a special move...

[A2ZOMG]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/yanmega

On the Choice set, what is the advantage of Ancientpower over Hidden Power Rock? Hidden Power Rock is able to have 10 more BP and has base 15 PP instead of base 5 PP.

That boost you can get from Ancientpower is nice, but only will kick in 10% of the time. And of course if you're forced out, the boosts are worthless.

[Legacy Raider]

Originally Posted by Fat A2ZOMG

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/yanmega

On the Choice set, what is the advantage of Ancientpower over Hidden Power Rock? Hidden Power Rock is able to have 10 more BP and has base 15 PP instead of base 5 PP.

That boost you can get from Ancientpower is nice, but only will kick in 10% of the time. And of course if you're forced out, the boosts are worthless.

Hidden Power Rock forces you to run an imperfect (30) Speed IV.

[Kikuichimonji]

There used to be an NB glitch that allowed Skarmory to block rapid spin using substitute, but that bug has been fixed in the latest version of NBS, making certain entries obsolete:

http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/skarmory

Under the Subskarm set, the following text appears:

The primary advantage is that it can help scout Fire Blast Snorlax and see if your opponent has Magneton. Secondly, on NetBattle 9.6, with Substitute up, Rapid Spin fails to eliminate Spikes. This significantly reduces the ability of Pokémon such as Donphan and Forretress to remove one of Skarmory's fundamental uses (Spikes). Drill Peck with Roar, Hidden Power Flying with Whirlwind, just like the others. This doesn't work in-game or on Pokémon Competitor though, because it's a glitch caused by NetBattle.

Perhaps this can be written as follows:

This Skarmory set serves pretty much the same purpose as the others—Spike up and take physical hits. The main difference is that Substitute allows you to scout Fire Blast Snorlax and see if your opponent has Magneton.

Also:
http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/claydol

Under "Other Options":

With the advent of Substitute Skarmory, Hidden Power Fire and Hidden Power Electric are viable options. Hidden Power Electric is probably the best choice, as it can actually do some damage to Gyarados (2-3HKO with no Special Attack EVs, always a 2HKO in a Sandstorm), but Hidden Power Fire can be used to surprise Forretress, and do a little bit of damage to a wounded Celebi if you lack Ice Beam.

I think it would be best just to remove all references to hidden power from the Claydol page.

[GAK]

Okay, I'd like to request a change to the Vaporeon page, with this set added.

[SET]
name: Vaporeon
move 1: Surf
move 2: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric
move 3: Aqua Ring
move 4: Acid Armor / Baton Pass
item: Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Bold
evs: 252 Def / 68 Spe / 188 HP
ivs: Nothing specific needed unless you need IV spreads for HP.

[SET COMMENTS]
Surf is great for Stab, Ice beam for pesky grass types, and flying, but mainly grass that try to switch in thinking I have HP Electric, and not Ice Beam. When you first bring Vaporeon, you need to get Aqua Ring up as quick as possible. With Leftovers accompanying it, it's very hard to get any damage done to Vaporeon with out it healing it off. Acid Armor is for additional Defense support, it boosts it 2 stages. This makes it even harder to do substantial damage. You could also use Baton Pass instead of Acid Armor, if you want to pass Aqua Ring off to a less sturdy teammate. I haven't tried Baton Pass personally, but it is a good substitute for Acid Armor if you don't want it. You can also run Hidden Power Electric instead of Ice Beam if you need it for coverage more than Ice Beam, but I recommend Ice Beam.

Thanks,
DanielSuperpoke

[monkfish]

DPP Suicune

Originally Posted by Fat Subcune set

There are two ways to play Subcune: defensively and offensively. Both have their own pros and cons, but both are equally useful. Offensive Subcune needs less Calm Minds to sweep, but wishes it had the bulk available to the defensive version and further struggles to beat Blissey, a huge advantage the defensive version has over offensive. Defensive runs the spread listed, while the offensive spread is 44 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe. The offensive spread utilizes max Special Attack for more immediate power, with 192 Speed for outpacing Jolly Mamoswine and the remainder invested in HP. Bring Suicune in on something it can force out and set up a Substitute. From there, you can deal with the opponent's Suicune answer accordingly, setting up or attacking based on the situation.

Firstly, the given spread amounts to 512 EVs; secondly, the speed EV is inconsistent in its two mentions

[Erodent]

I got you m0nkfish!

[hsb39]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/donphan

On the Rapid Spin set for Donphan (and it applies to CB as well), I think it should be mentioned that if you decide to use Donphan in OU Ice Shard is a much more useful option because of it's powerful hits on common Pokemon, especially Salamence.

[polelover44]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/lucario

On the Anti-Lead set, Swords Dance can be added to the fourth slot as another option.

[Exarius]

The following is written under Tyranitars Choice Scarf-set:

Fire Blast and Ice Beam allow Tyranitar to hit many of its counters and take them down in one or two hits. Ice Beam is your best option against Bulky Grounds such as Hippowdon and Gliscor, 2HKOing and OHKOing them 100% of the time, respectively. Fire Blast hits Scizor, Forretress and Skarmory for super effective damage and OHKOes all of them barring Skarmory, who is always 2HKOed. Crunch and Stone Edge are Tyranitar's strongest options on this set because of STAB, and they allow you threaten Latias, Gyarados and many other Pokémon that normally would be comfortable switching in after a kill in order to chase Tyranitar away. Earthquake is a solid choice to hit Fire-types such as Infernape and Heatran. Fire Blast already hits most Steels (except for Heatran), and most Fire-types already have problems taking a Stone Edge, but Earthquake hits hard off of Tyranitar's high Attack stat, and ensures the KOs. It is an option over one of the STAB moves if you feel you have the threats that they hit covered already. Thunderbolt is a good option for those who feel stuck against Bulky Waters, and it comes with a nice OHKO on Gyarados as well. Superpower is a usable option for better coverage against Blissey, Snorlax, and opposing Tyranitar.

It makes it sound like Stone Edge is Special attack, which it isn't.

I suggest it changed to following:

and most Fire-types already have problems taking a Stone Edge, but Earthquake hits a few Fire Pokemon harder, more spesifically Heatran and Infernape, and ensures the KOs.

Both of the forementioned pokemon are 2HKO with Stone Edge and 0/0 EV investements, while Earthquake OHKOs both. Also, both are the only pokes in OU that takes Neutral from Rock-type attack and Super-Effective from Ground.

Also, in the same regard, the Italized part refers to the set moves, but they are arranged differently: Crunch and Earthquake are the main options, while Stone Edge is the alternate option to both. I suggest it changed so that Crunch and Stone Edge are the main options and Earthquake is the alternate option (like it's mentioned in the analysis).

[Philip7086]

On the Choice Scarf set for the Honchkrow analysis, an extra 8 EVs should be taken from Special Attack and placed into Speed. This will allow Honchkrow to outspeed all the +Speed base 125 Pokemon, most notably Weavile and Swellow.

[tdub13]

On Rotom-C's Standard Set (the first one), the analysis suggests for EVs of 252 HP/ 168 Def/ 88 Spe, which produces stats of 304 HP, 292 Def, and 253 Spe if Rotom-C is Timid. However, that same spread can be reached by using a Bold Nature with a EV spread of 252 HP, 64 Def, and 180 Spe, leaving an extra 12 Evs to be allocated somewhere else. Perhaps somebody could make a note of that in the analysis, as this is a more efficient way to allocate EVs.

[umbarsc]

I don't know if this belongs in the objective or subjective thread - it's kinda both.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dialga

If one wants to take advantage of Choice Band Dialga's ability to 2HKO non-defensive Groudon, an alternate EV spread of 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe with an Adamant nature can be used.

Outrage 2HKOs Supporting Groudon, which is the most defensive set in the analysis. And with Stealth Rocks or Spikes, I know from experience it can 2HKO Impish Groudon. I don't know exactly how much defensive EVs Impish usually run, but Outrage does 43-50% to max/max Impish Groudon (and I know they run less), which is a possible but unlikely 2HKO with just Stealth Rocks, but with one layer of Spikes it gives Dialga a 44.71% chance to 2HKO if Groudon hasn't taken any other prior damage. Not sure if that "counts" as a 2HKO, but it shouldn't imply that defensive Groudon takes the hit well.

[Quaily]

Where to post what seems kind of confusing, but I think this goes here. None of the poison types like the tentacruel and roserade analysis have black sludge as a suggested item, they all have leftovers. Black sludge provides the same recovery, while also hurting things that trick you.

[eric the espeon]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/deoxys-d
First set has Careful Nature but only Knock Off as a physical attack option and Ice Beam as a Special option. I suggest adding Calm as a nature option because if the player chooses Careful and Ice Beam they will be using a slightly less effective set. Probably a short addition to sec comments could be made too.

Additionally for the same analysis on the second set it claims that "After an Agility, Deoxys-D will reach 446 Speed, making it so that no non-Choice Scarf Pokémon can touch it.". With the given investment of 4 EVs it will actually only reaches 434 Speed. With this speed it is just outsped by + Speed Deoxys and Deoxys-A as well as Ninjask. I suggest either adding 12 more EVs to speed to allow it to hit 440 after the boost, beating + speed base 150s, or simply rewording that sentence to indicate the correct speed reached and the fact that some non scarfed Pokemon can still outspeed you (Deoxys-S in particular often carries Taunt).

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Originally Posted by Fat Quaily

Where to post what seems kind of confusing, but I think this goes here. None of the poison types like the tentacruel and roserade analysis have black sludge as a suggested item, they all have leftovers. Black sludge provides the same recovery, while also hurting things that trick you.

Black Sludge can later be tricked onto one of your other teammates, essentially giving the opposing Trick user two chances to cripple your team. Leftovers > Black Sludge somewhere around 100% of the time.

[eric the espeon]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/defog
Should mention that it also clears Fog in battle, but that Fog only occurs in link battles in the Courtyard Colosseum, and even there only sometimes.

The UU Speed Tiers could do with a quick going over by someone with experience, it has Yammega (now banned) still up and misses Raikou. It also has a load of random extremely weak Pokemon like Kricketune, which really should not be there. Probably does not need a peer edit or anything, most of the changes should be obvious.

[RaikouLover]

Kind of always wondered this about the Lugia spread:

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/lugia

On the great wall set, Lugia is given an EV spread of 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 Spe, which translates to only 307 Spe?

In doing calculations, it reveals this spread is taking a minimum of 70.9% from a +1 Jolly Rayquaza Outrage. Basically, Lugia is NOT a counter for Dragon Dance Rayquaza since it carries less than a 50% chance of survival after Stealth Rock with the current spread. So since Lugia makes a rather poor counter for Dragon Dance Rayquaza, I think the set should be geared more to what it can actually check, and that is Swords Dance Rayquaza and all versions of Garchomp. I got this quote from the Garchomp analysis:

Stone Edge is Garchomp's best move against Lugia. Lugia is the dominant wall in Ubers, but does not always invest enough Speed to outpace Garchomp.

This should never happen really. At all... Lugia is the 100% perfect counter for Garchomp being able to tank, outspeed, retaliate, recover, set up screens all in its face. There is a small mention here about a faster spread:

Sets with Light Screen may, however, prefer a Timid nature with 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe to outspeed all Palkia without Choice Scarf; the reason is that with Light Screen, Lugia can conceivably stall Palkia that have Life Orb until it faints through Life Orb recoil. To help deal with Rayquaza, Lugia can opt to use 318 Speed, which allows Lugia to outrun Jolly variants of the Dragon and use Roost or Reflect before it uses Stone Edge. This requires 248 Speed EVs. HP should be maxed, like normal, with the remaining 8 EVs spilled into Defense.

Lugia should probably run even more speed than that... The spread I propose is 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe, Timid, which yields 312 Defense and 334 Speed to outrun Garchomp. Since Reflect is already a necessity on the set, the loss of Defense isn't greater in this instance then the benefits received from being able to Reflect and Roost on +2 Stone Edges from Chomp (or just outspeed and kill it). Although this varient is pretty helpless against Dragon Dance Rayquaza, as I already mentioned the current spread isn't doing much to remedy that either, and remains a sitting duck for Swords Dance Rayquaza assaults when it should just laugh in its face and Ice Beam.

The thing that surprises me the most is I've been running the spread I'm proposing ever since Garchomp was made public in the Uber tier and people still are surprised when he can't get past Lugia...

[TheMantyke]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/magnezone

Under Opinion, there's a really outdated sentence about Magnezone.

Magnezone is still just a hair short of being a genuine standard though. If it still had Magneton's Speed, or if its Special Defense was switched with its Defense, it would be a staple.

Magnezone has been in the top 20 OU pokemon since July and I can't recall it ever being sent to UU. Magnezone is a genuine standard, and due to that, I think this sentence should be removed.

[BlackDS]

The DPP EVing Manual

http://www.smogon.com/ingame/guides/ev_manual

I tried to post to this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60140 ; however, the forum wouldn't let me post.

The DPP EVing Manual states the following at the end of "Section Eight - Begin EV Training":

Quote.

""The Box Trick"

The Box Trick is a useful way to EV Train some Pokémon so that they are allowed to participate in Pokémon Video Game Tournaments. The Video Game Tournaments only permit Pokémon up to level 50 to enter; several important Pokémon are only available at level 50 in Platinum - for example, Heatran and Cresselia. Usually, after EV Training, you will level a Pokémon up until the EVs you invested into it become clearly shown in its stats. However, with "The Box Trick", you will be able to simply EV Train a Pokémon, place it in your PC box (during which time your Pokémon's stats are recalculated to reflect the EVs you invested into it), withdraw it, and the Pokémon's stats change based on the EVs you invested into it. In other words, if your Pokémon is at level 1, no dramatic changes will be seen; however, if your Pokémon is at level 50, you will be able to see evident changes in their stats. Note that your Pokémon will still gain EXP in the EV Training process, though, so it is recommended that you fight low-level Pokémon. In conclusion, this is simply a way of making EVs seen without having to level a Pokémon up."

End Quote.

Everyone knows that the box trick no longer works in the 4th generation Pokemon games.

You need to level up to gain EV(s) in Pokemon Platinum, Diamond, & Pearl. The "Box Trick" used to work in the 3rd generation, but it doesn't work anymore, GameFreak fixed it. I can't believe no one caught this mistake, but someone needs to fix it. Otherwise all the noobs will to be misled, and there will be a plethora of Pokesav TRU level 50 event pokemon with optimized 510 EV stats (i.e. spreads like 252 Special Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP). Or Pokesav TRU Level 100 Arceus with 252 Hit Points EVs 252 Attack EVs 4 Speed EVs.

I was so astounded by the error that I registered for the Smogon Forums to point it out.

Please make the change ASAP.

BTW, I love Smogon, it's the best site on the web to learn about Pokemon Battling, training, breeding, etc.

Thanks in advance.

Mods: Since you deleted my other posts, why not just delete this post??? You obviously have your mind made up. You know everyone on GameFAQ thinks Smogon members only play on Shoddy and with hacked pokemon. I never thought so, but you're proving them right. Whatevers, I'm done here. Just do your Shoddy and Pokesav your pokemon and spread your lies. I don't ever care anymore.

[RBG*]

The Box trick works. It only doesn't work for level 100 Pokemon.

[BlackDS]

Originally Posted by Fat RB Golbat

The Box trick works. It only doesn't work for level 100 Pokemon.

I guess that's why there are NO Youtube videos showing proof that the "Box Trick" (as described in the Smogon DPP EVing Manual, namely putting a pokemon in the pc box, and magically having the EVs gained through in-game battling update stats w/o leveling up) works in Diamond, Pearl, & Platinum (4th generation pokemon games).

This despite numerous videos showing the "box trick" working in GBA (3rd generation) and prior games on Youtube.

Your statement is unproven BS. Until I see someone post a Youtube video as proof, I'm going to side with the overwhelming majority posting on forums like GameFAQ that say the "box trick" does NOT work in 4th generation Pokemon games (Diamond, Pearl & Platinum).

This type of misinformation is used by Pokesav hackers to justify their hacked level 50 Event Pokemon.

If you really want to change my mind, be the 1st to post a youtube video showing, from start to finish, the "box trick" working in Diamond, Pearl, or Platinum.

AT THE VERY LEAST, the Smogon DPP EVing Manual should post a caveat that NO video has ever been posted to prove the "box trick" works in Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum (4th generation games). And that until proof is posted, the "box trick" is unverified in Diamond, Pearl, & Platinum.

So you can still mention the "box trick" as being rumor and not officially or unofficially verified.

Thanks in advance.