(Archive) Small Subjective Changes Thread

[TheMantyke]

If you believe the box trick doesn't work, try it yourself. Catch a random high level pokemon, give it a power item, fight a few wild pokemon, and deposit it in a box. Its stats will jump up.

AT THE VERY LEAST, the Smogon DPP EVing Manual should post a caveat that NO video has ever been posted to prove the "box trick" works in Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum (4th generation games). And that until proof is posted, the "box trick" is unverified in Diamond, Pearl, & Platinum.

I've never seen anyone catch a stantler with a dive ball. That doesn't mean I need video evidence to prove that doing so isn't a rumor!

[BlackDS]

Originally Posted by Fat TheMantyke

If you believe the box trick doesn't work, try it yourself. Catch a random high level pokemon, give it a power item, fight a few wild pokemon, and deposit it in a box. Its stats will jump up.


I've never seen anyone catch a stantler with a dive ball. That doesn't mean I need video evidence to prove that doing so isn't a rumor!

And just because people say they are abducted by aliens, it doesn't mean aliens exist.

Why should I have to prove anything, if you're so sure it works, you post the youtube video.

BTW, since the OP admitted that it doesn't work on level 100 pokemon, the only relevance is EV training level 50 event pokemon for official Nintendo tournaments. Otherwise, you would just level up.

TheMantyke, your type of mentality perpetuates the rumor, until people actually believe it. Smogon has made itself a leader in the Pokemon Community, especially with regards to online battling, and preparing pokemon teams. So Smogon should not be perpetuating rumors, and should try to provide the most accurate information possible. Otherwise, Smogon will lose it's credibility.

[Erazor]

BlackDS, I appreciate that you mean well. However, I can safely say that the box trick works, at least on lv. 50 Pokemon. I tested it on Azelf - I caught it at lv 50, gave it a few Carbos, put it in the PC. I took it out. It's speed increased.
Ill try and put up a video.

[BlackDS]

Originally Posted by Fat Erazor

BlackDS, I appreciate that you mean well. However, I can safely say that the box trick works, at least on lv. 50 Pokemon. I tested it on Azelf - I caught it at lv 50, gave it a few Carbos, put it in the PC. I took it out. It's speed increased.
Ill try and put up a video.

Now this I CAN answer.

IIRC, I gave my level 50 TRU Manaphy some vitamins to check it's IVs on MetalKid's Calculator (it told me that for one catagory stat I need to level up to 100 or give it some EVs, NO WAY do I have that many rare candy, so I gave it some vitamins to boost the EVs). As soon as I gave it the vitamin, the stat increased. I did NOT have to put it in the PC Box. Then I wrote down the IVs and turned off the DS (without saving), because I didn't want to alter my TRU Manaphy, I just wanted to check it's IVs.

Erazor, just write down your Azelf's stats, then give it the carbos, then check Azelf's stats again, you will see the stat increased. This is due to the vitamins and has NOTHING to do with the "box trick". As proof, you can still give the Level 100 TRU Arceus vitamins to raise it's EVs (limited to 100 EV per stat).

The example you posted is a just the way vitamins like carbos work. It has nothing to do with the "box trick". If you would have checked the stats before and after giving your Azelf carbos, you would have witnessed the change in stats happened BEFORE you ever placed Azelf in the PC Box.

Thanks for the post, but I think you will see that I'm right about the vitamins (in this case carbos) and Azelf's change in stats.

[Erazor]

No, that's not what I meant. If you had put that Manaphy in the box after those vitamins, its stats would have increased even more.

I guess neither of us will be convinced till the other side posts a video though.

[Rook]

The box trick works. In any case, why don't you post a video disproving it. Battle 10 zubats with a not already EV trained pokemon, put it in the box, and take it out. If the stats didn't change, you were right. I doubt any one of us is really going to bother proving your theory false by going through the trouble to post a youtube video.

[BlackDS]

Originally Posted by Fat Rook

The box trick works. In any case, why don't you post a video disproving it. Battle 10 zubats with a not already EV trained pokemon, put it in the box, and take it out. If the stats didn't change, you were right. I doubt any one of us is really going to bother proving your theory false by going through the trouble to post a youtube video.

Very convenient for you, huh?

Why don't you post the Youtube video???

Like I said, there are NO videos on youtube proving the "box trick" works.

That's because it doesn't work.

[mingot**]

I am going to post the last word about the box trick, and then delete this after a few days.

1. You do not need to use the box trick when using vitamins. EVs applied through their use are instantly reflected in the stats.
2. You DO need to use the box trick (and it does work) when you gain EVs through battling.
3. The box trick does NOT work on level 100 Pokemon, as EVs cannot be gained when a Pokemon is at level 100 (with the exception of vitamans). Only Pokemon that gain experience can gain evs and Pokemon at level 100 do not gain experience.

That's it.

[eric the espeon]

Found one of these and it bugged me, so I checked them all with google's help. Not quite sure if these should be in objective changes, but here is the safer bet.

Sets that should have 0 Spe IV and don't, all tiers:

TR support Solrock
has brave nature, clearly wants 0 IV
TR Exeggutor
it even specifically mentions it in the EVs section, but not on the set >_>
TR Uxie
has -Spe nature, clearly wants 0 IV
TR Slowbro
HP Electric can use a 3 IV, but it's the third slash and mentioned in SC anyway.
Also, see below for a better TR HP Electric IV spread. Probably the only one that's not an easy fix.


Additionally, a better spread for HP Electric on TR Clamperl, TR Wailord and than the suggested 30 Atk / 30 SpA / 3 Spe would be 30 Atk / 30 Def / 2 Spe. Gives you a speed edge over other Clam under TR, and a point in SpA which matters much more than Def.

[jc104]

I don't know if this would be too major a change, but on Dragonite's choice band set, I think Extremespeed ought to be added as a major option on the set, probably over earthquake or aqua tail. This extremespeed is almost as powerful as scizor's bullet punch, but is more effective against threats such as Gyarados. Obviously this would require a reworking of the rest of the set (I can see that it is an option to run a bulky spread with less speed when taking into account the priority) but I'm way too lazy to do a proper peer edit.

[Komodo]

In Deoxys-D's EVs section:

"If Rayquaza doesn’t concern you put 176 into Special Defense with a Careful nature. Dump the remaining EVs into either the other defensive stat or Special Attack."

This says use a Careful nature, why would you bother investing in special attack ?

[drcossack]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/garchomp

In the Garchomp analysis:

"Stealth Rock support is very important for this set. This is because without it, Garchomp cannot OHKO Palkia or Rayquaza with Dragon Claw."

Would this sound better? "If using Dragon Claw on this set, Stealth Rock support is very important. Without SR, Garchomp's Dragon Claw cannot OHKO Palkia or Rayquaza."

[Alakapimp]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/gravity_guide

First paragraph of Bronzong description:

"Bronzong has so many other useful support options to help your Gravity team: Stealth Rock support is vital, it can also incapacitate a Pokemon with Hypnosis, set up dual screens, and so on."

seems sort of awkward, could maybe be:

"Bronzong has many other support options such as Stealth Rock, Hypnosis, and dual screens which allow it do more than just set up Gravity for your team."

[Old Man Reaver]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/trace

I believe it is worth mentioning that Trace copies a random foe's ability in doubles.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/relicanth @ Opinion

It isn't all bad news though, Relicanth has the awesome Head Smash, and unlike Rampardos—the only other Pokémon who can learn this move—he doesn't have to suffer with the 50% recoil.

This is outdated, as Aggron and Donphan now also get Head Smash. Reword:

It isn't all bad news, though, because Relicanth has the awesome Head Smash with STAB and no recoil to boot.

www.smogon.com/dp/moves/pursuit

Whenever a Pokemon is withdrawn, either through switching or through U-turn (but not Baton Pass), if an enemy Pokemon has selected Pursuit for use, has not yet taken its turn, is not frozen, is not sleeping, and is not about to miss its turn due to Truant, then that enemy Pokemon uses Pursuit with double power on the Pokemon being withdrawn, and skips its normal turn. Otherwise, the user uses Pursuit normally on its turn against the selected target.

This could be a LOT more concise and should use the style of the other moves (for example, using the word "target").

If the target switches or uses U-turn (the target must be faster for Pursuit to work on U-turn), the user deals damage at double power to the target before it is switched out. Deals damage at normal power if the target uses any other move. Does not work with Baton Pass.

Honestly, the sleeping, frozen, and Truant stuff is irrelevant. A person could assume that it would fail if the user is asleep, frozen, or about to miss its turn.

[cim]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/empoleon

While Tyranitar is a fine choice as a Pursuit user, it is worth noting that it shares Fighting and Ground weaknesses with Empoleon, meaning you may be better off using a Pokémon that creates better opportunities for Empoleon to enter play. Scizor shares a Steel typing with Empoleon but they don't have any weaknesses in common, and will greatly help in wearing away at Blissey, and Celebi and Latias for those who decide to run Grass Knot over Ice Beam.

This paragraph should be reworded. Shared weaknesses with the "Lead + 4 + Late" style team are almost completely inconsequential, since Empoleon comes out exactly once and Scizor isn't exactly a bouncing point for Empoleon anyway.

[cim]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gliscor

Originally Posted by Fat Team Options

Vaporeon is a solid choice here, as it is immune to Water-type attacks, and takes literally nothing from Ice-type attacks due to its high Special Defense;

Vaporeon doesn't take "literally nothing" from Ice Beam. It takes practically nothing.

[Old Man Reaver]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/focus_energy

Should mention that Focus Energy cannot be used more than once.

[timetwister]

Hello, I've never posted here, but I thought I'd give it a shot and recommend a move that I believe should be added to one of Gyarados' Analysis sets.

Here is Gyarados' Analysis page for reference

The set I would like to add a move to is the "BulkyGyara" set.

Currently, the recommendation is as follows:
~Dragon Dance
~Taunt
~Waterfall
~Return/Bounce

Now, when I was considering using Gyarados on my current team, I really liked this set a lot, and was enthralled at the type coverage Water/Normal gives. However, I usually like my moves to do something, especially when I'm sure that they won't KO the target, which was why I was really starting to dislike Return. Bounce, to me, is not a very good option, however, I respect that some people will disagree with me, but I still think it deserves a mention on the set; I just don't like it myself due to the low PP and ease of countering due to the charge up turn. Not to mention, you get walled by any Pokémon with Protect.

I decided to look for a 4th move myself and think I have found a move that combines the two moves into one, the normal type coverage, and the chance of paralysis that Bounce gives that works so well with Waterfall. That move is: Body Slam. Body Slam, learned by move tutor in FR/LG/XD, has 17 less base power than Return, but has a 30% chance of inflicting paralysis.

Here are some damage calculations to illustrate how the slight loss of base power is negligible after some Dragon Dances:

+2 Gyarados, BulkyGyara EV's with Body Slam vs. Defensive CM Latias: 56.5-66.7%
+2 Gyarados, BulkyGyara EV's with Return vs. Defensive CM Latias: 67.9-79.9%

Both 2HKO Latias even with Leftovers (though if you roll minimum damage twice with Body Slam, you're cutting it a little close xP). The other benefit is the chance of paralysis on switch ins. A Salamence or opposing Gyarados won't like getting paralysed and either switch out again, or try to match you in the DD race.

Hopefully this post is sufficient. If needed, I can add more damage calculations, I just cannot think of what would be wanted in that respect. Thanks for reading.

[jc104]

The first sentences of the Dusknoir analysis:

"Dusknoir faces serious competition for the role of spin blocker with Rotom-A. However, Dusknoir is still more than capable of functioning as an effective spin blocker, boasting some significant advantages over the electronic appliance, most notably better defenses and Pain Split."

Rotom now gets Pain split, so this should be changed.

Also noticed in the Rain Offensive Guide that Honchkrow is present as an UU threat. Also, for Omastar:

"Useful Moves: Surf, Earth Power, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Electric, AncientPower, Hydro Pump, Hidden Power Electric, Rain Dance"

Presumably one is supposed to be Hp Grass

[Reflect Suicune]

http://www.smogon.com/rs/moves/substitute
http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/substitute

Attract needs to be added to the list in the fourth "paragraph" of the R/S Substitute entry.

For both the R/S and D/P entries (for Substitute), the second paragraph needs to be reworded:

Substitute blocks all status effects. Synchronize can still inflict status on a Substituted Pokémon. Doom Desire and Future Sight do damage to the Substitute. All other end-of-turn damage is done to the Pokémon, not the Substitute. Substitute blocks flinching.

Substitute does not "block" status effects, it "prevents them from being inflicted", "blocks status effect inflicting moves", "blocks effects that inflict status effects", etc... take your pick.

If you do not see the issue, then consider this: 'Thunder Wave' is not a status effect, it is a move. 'Paralysis' is a status effect.

[Komodo]

On the Muk analysis (Counters section) the words:

"Skarmory is a prick even if you've got Fire Punch"

I think the use of the word "prick" is inappropriate and unnecessary, something more "friendly" should replace it. For example "pain".

I fixed the error with the Omastar and Hidden Power Electric twice.

Fixed the post below.
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[Reflect Suicune]

Honestly I think that whole sentence needs reworded since its excessively informal.

"Skarmory is a pain even if Muk has Fire Punch" would be the smallest change.

[Doomsday94]

Instructed to put this here instead of the other thread:

http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/rain_offense

'Sweepers who are able to should run 225 Speed to outrun +1 neutral Salamence in the rain (i.e. Salamence after one Dragon Dance).'
This sentence is no longer needed, as the majority of Salamence now run a plus Speed nature. You could also change this to 247, which would outrun a +1 positive Salamence.

(Taken from the Speeds To Hit section)

When introducing Zapdos as a Rain Dance lead, it makes reference to Jirachi, who is below it. Perhaps switch the places of the two, so that the reference makes sense.

[Komodo]

Originally Posted by Fat _Apocalypse_

When introducing Zapdos as a Rain Dance lead, it makes reference to Jirachi, who is below it. Perhaps switch the places of the two, so that the reference makes sense.

This isn't needed, It just mentions that it is simular. There isn't any need to change.

Originally Posted by Fat _Apocalypse_

'Sweepers who are able to should run 225 Speed to outrun +1 neutral Salamence in the rain (i.e. Salamence after one Dragon Dance).'
This sentence is no longer needed, as the majority of Salamence now run a plus Speed nature. You could also change this to 247, which would outrun a +1 positive Salamence.

I'm going to leave this to someone more "experienced"

[Reflect Suicune]

Doug's Statistics for the month of December

| Salamence | Nature | Adamant | 15.5 |
| Salamence | Nature | Naughty | 15.2 |

Originally Posted by Fat _Apocalypse_

'Sweepers who are able to should run 225 Speed to outrun +1 neutral Salamence in the rain (i.e. Salamence after one Dragon Dance).'
This sentence is no longer needed, as the majority of Salamence now run a plus Speed nature.

Majority does not mean all... 30% is plenty to think about when building's one team, especially when Salamence's total usage was 175,224. That means that in the month of December, roughly 52,000 Salamence had an Adamant or Naughty nature. This is not even close to a minor enough number that would constitute removal of that sentence, so the sentence stays.