Ask a simple question, get a simple answer - VGC edition

[Xicious]

Alright hopefully this is a simple question. My Garchomp is sitting on a Choice Scarf with 252 speed and atk evs, 31 speed ivs, and an adamant nature. My question is how many speed evs can I safely give up and still out speed most major threats, such as 1 speed boost blaziken, non choice swift swim kingdra, latio/as, salamence, and anything else that'd be a major threat? I just feel he's unnecessarily too fast and those evs could go else where.

[LPFan]

Originally Posted by Fat Xicious

Alright hopefully this is a simple question. My Garchomp is sitting on a Choice Scarf with 252 speed and atk evs, 31 speed ivs, and an adamant nature. My question is how many speed evs can I safely give up and still out speed most major threats, such as 1 speed boost blaziken, non choice swift swim kingdra, latio/as, salamence, and anything else that'd be a major threat? I just feel he's unnecessarily too fast and those evs could go else where.

I don't think you will be able to outrun max speed timid kingdra unless it's a more bulkier spread, but I think 252 speed adamant is necessary, since you get that small speed drop. Don't change it.

[Xicious]

Originally Posted by Fat LPFan

I don't think you will be able to outrun max speed timid kingdra unless it's a more bulkier spread, but I think 252 speed adamant is necessary, since you get that small speed drop. Don't change it.

Thanks for the input, I should have never said kingdra it was a bad example I have prankster thunder wave to deal with him. I want to up my garchomps hp evs to give him a little more bulk not by much but by some at least. I never really felt 252 252 and 4 were ever the way to go for evs on anything.

[LPFan]

Originally Posted by Fat Xicious

Thanks for the input, I should have never said kingdra it was a bad example I have prankster thunder wave to deal with him. I want to up my garchomps hp evs to give him a little more bulk not by much but by some at least. I never really felt 252 252 and 4 were ever the way to go for evs on anything.

Well no problem! But you might want to double check, I'm better at memorizing level 100 speed tiers than level 50 speed tiers.

[Drifblim]

To be safe, I would put in enough to outrun Scarf neutral speed Salamence, which is 244 Spd EVs. Scarf Mence isn't too common, yet it does appear and you will almost certainly catch it off gaurd. I am not sure how many HP/SpD EVs you would need to live Zapdos/Thundurus' HP Ice, but if you aren't worried about Scarf Mence I don't think you need to sacrifice too many EVs for those.

[Xicious]

Originally Posted by Fat Drifblim

To be safe, I would put in enough to outrun Scarf neutral speed Salamence, which is 244 Spd EVs. Scarf Mence isn't too common, yet it does appear and you will almost certainly catch it off gaurd. I am not sure how many HP/SpD EVs you would need to live Zapdos/Thundurus' HP Ice, but if you aren't worried about Scarf Mence I don't think you need to sacrifice too many EVs for those.

Thank you for the input, it's funny you say that because that's exactly what my goal is to live through hp ice. In a situation like that is it better to focus on hp or spec d, chomps hp is solid but his special d is pretty bad?

[Chinese Dood]

@Xicious: It's a matter of how much you want to outspeed vs how much bulk you want.

These are a few calculations I made that hopefully will help you decide. Scarf Garchomp with Adamant Nature with:
- 0 Speed EVs speed ties +115 base speed (Starmie/Raikou... which means it'll outspeed Thundurus/Tornadus too)
- 20 Speed EVs outspeeds Jolly Scarf Tyranitar (which will also outspeeds max speed +Speed Whimsicott for what that's worth)
- 60 Speed EVs outspeeds Jolly Weavile
- 84 Speed EVs outspeeds Scarf Neutral base 80s (mainly Chandelure/Mamoswine)
- 92 Speed EVs outspeeds +130 base speed (mainly Crobat)
- 100 Speed EVs outspeeds Scarf +Speed base 70s (possibly Breloom?)
- 132 Speed EVs outspeeds Modest Scarf Rotom-Appliance
- 188 Speed EVs outspeeds Scarf +Speed base 80s (mainly Chandelure/Mamoswine)
- 236 Speed EVs outspeeds Timid Scarf Rotom-Appliance
- 244 Speed EVs outspeeds neutral nature Scarf Salamence (as Drifblim mentioned)
EDIT: 140 Speed EVs for outspeeding +Speed Scarf Smeargle

Outspeeding Tailwind-boosted / Swift Swim will potentially require Jolly and a lot more Speed EVs. E.g. outpseeding Modest 252 Speed EV Ludicolo under rain (base 70... so same for max speed Adamant Metagross/Hitmontop under Tailwind) will require 212 Speed EVs with Jolly nature... probably not worth it if you're looking for both attack power and bulk.

Hope that helps.

If you are looking to live an HP Ice (and only HP Ice)... then:
Garchomp with 252 Attack 164 Sp Def 92 Speed is guaranteed to live an unboosted Timid Thundurus HP Ice.

164 HP instead of Sp Def means 25% chance of being OHKO'd by HP Ice.

If you want to guarantee living a Modest Thundurus/Zapdos HP Ice though, you will need 252 Sp Def (or some combination of Sp Def and HP and sacrifice some attack).

Hope I didn't do any calcs wrong, but yah that's about it.
EDIT: ok, so it's 244 SpDef, not 252.

[Lucifers Pride]

You need to run 244 SpD EVs to survive a Modest HP Ice from Zapdos. Don't do it.

[Xicious]

@chinesedood and luci's pride:

Thanks so much guys, I'm so glad the community for pokez is so accepting and helpful. There's really not a lot of other competitive communities that are this wise and helpful. I'd ask a question like this on any other board i'd get trolled all day. So thank you guys, I'm gonna look over the list chinesedood posted and see where I want my chomp to be and go from there. Living through an hp ice is a pipe dream but I do sitll want some decent bulk.

[Pippy]

Quick question: if, say, I have a Zapdos and a Venusaur active, and the weather is rain, would switching Zapdos with a Ninetales, therefore summoning sun, activate chlorophyll that turn?

[Dimsun]

No, as when you switch a pokemon, the turn order has already been locked in.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat Dimsun

No, as when you switch a pokemon, the turn order has already been locked in.

However, Chlorophyll would still technically be active, for example if the opponent used Gyro Ball it would use the Chlorophyll-modified Speed stat.

[theamericandream38]

Originally Posted by Fat voodoo pimp

However, Chlorophyll would still technically be active, for example if the opponent used Gyro Ball it would use the Chlorophyll-modified Speed stat.

This is the complete answer. The order that Pokemon move in is set in stone once the turn begins, but stat changes will still occur, and chlorophyll is a stat change (hence burn/swagger working in the same turn they are used).

[Pippy]

Ok, thanks.

[Layell]

Are there any clauses that would prevent BW2 moves or move tutors from being abused and put on vgc teams?

[ΩDonut]

Originally Posted by Fat Layell

Are there any clauses that would prevent BW2 moves or move tutors from being abused and put on vgc teams?

"Players may use Pokémon with Hidden Abilities that have been officially released via Pokémon Black Version and Pokémon White Version, the Pokémon Global Link, or an official event or promotion. "

This currently bars any Hidden Ability Pokémon obtained in BW2. As for everything else, Team Rocket Elite contacted TPCi, twice, and both times he was told that they would not be allowed.

Originally Posted by Fat Team Rocket Elite

To be safe, I asked for a reconfirmation that Black2/White2 changes will not be tournament legal at the US and Canadian Nationals. The response I got back was that they are not allowed. Here's the full response:

Furthermore, you can probably expect that the hack-checking devices will not be updated with BW2 moves, so even if they are technically allowed, good luck arguing with the tournament organizers that it is.

[Layell]

I'm already groaning at this, I've already contacted the one Canadian tournament guy who lurks here. Not that I'm expecting to win but how about for worlds? It already seems like Japan has an advantage. Moves like Skill Swap will be now on many gen v mons and such.

More griping but this would never happen to any other competitive game, where one region gets an updated release in the middle of the tournament.

[ΩDonut]

Originally Posted by Fat Layell

I'm already groaning at this, I've already contacted the one Canadian tournament guy who lurks here. Not that I'm expecting to win but how about for worlds? It already seems like Japan has an advantage. Moves like Skill Swap will be now on many gen v mons and such.

More griping but this would never happen to any other competitive game, where one region gets an updated release in the middle of the tournament.

If BW2 tutors and abilities are allowed at Worlds, it really won't be an advantage confined to Japan. Players with Worlds invites are usually top players who have the connections to get the moves and Pokémon they need.

[Team Rocket Elite]

When I last asked (several months ago), BW2 moves aren't allowed at World either. I'll probably bug them a third time about it when we got closer to the Worlds.

The VGC season now lasts from November to August. New games getting released in the middle of the season can't be avoided. They just need to be dealt with properly. Something like the change must have been out for X amount of time in all regions to be legal.

[CouchMuffin]

What would you recommend as an EV spread for a gastrodon?

[Lucifers Pride]

Originally Posted by Fat CouchMuffin

What would you recommend as an EV spread for a gastrodon?

I would suggest having it live Latios Dragon Gem Draco Meteor and be 3HKO'd by Metagross's Zen Headbutt. I don't have the exact spread on me but you can play around with this and figure it out in no time! Just make sure you change the levels to 50!

[CouchMuffin]

Originally Posted by Fat Lucifers Pride

I would suggest having it live Latios Dragon Gem Draco Meteor and be 3HKO'd by Metagross's Zen Headbutt. I don't have the exact spread on me but you can play around with this and figure it out in no time! Just make sure you change the levels to 50!

I just finished EVing it in HP and Defense as Bold, is that good? I don't have silverlight and it's really buggy on Win8 anyway.

[pokemaster649]

Originally Posted by Fat CouchMuffin

I just finished EVing it in HP and Defense as Bold, is that good? I don't have silverlight and it's really buggy on Win8 anyway.

I wouldn't say that, put at some sp. evs to help it survive dragon gem draco meteor and gonna be enough to survive 3 zen headbutts from meta for def.

[Drifblim]

Bah, I hate working with Gastrodon's EV spreads. Without a lot in Defense or Special Defense it feels frail in them, and even then it tends not to hit very hard without a Storm Drain boost or EVs in Special Attack. Like Lucifer said, and I think is possible, try to make it survive 3 of Metagross' Zen Headbutts and not be OHKO'd by Dragon Gem Latios' Draco Meteor.

[Superpokemon67]

When I ran Gastro I just used 252 HP/Spatt with a ground gem so I could OHKO meta. It's hard to add much bulk and also KO meta at the same time, so I just picked the latter, but do what's best for your team.