The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[SJCrew]

I thought the Latias ban was absolutely necessary. You might not think much of it, after having been so used to running Scarftar every match, but what about teams where you wanted to use something else? Great, so that opens up your slot to Scizor or Blissey. If you don't run any of them, you're most likely not going to win.

I really don't think we should be getting used to any Pokemon dumping on the standard metagame, then allowing it to form arguments like "it's not a big deal" or "I've had no problems with it". If one of your teamslots is permanently reserved for Scarftar, then there's a huge problem; you just haven't acknowledged it.

Let's face it, we're used to Salamence being around, so a lot of us are naturally going to be hesitant to agree it's causing a problem for the standard metagame. It's like you carry a Scizor just to check DDMence and it's been doing ok so far, if you ignore all those times you switched into a Fire Blast or Draco Meteor, or that Bullet Punch failed to hit that crucial 65% and you lost a valuable team player because of it (that's actually why I think Scizor is a rather poor and lazy way to check Salamence in general). We don't rage every time it happens because it's nothing new and we've become complacent in our attitude toward it.

The way I see it, Salamence is way harder to deal with than any other OU and a lot of people don't want to acknowledge that because he fits into their picture perfect ideal of a standard metagame. Those people don't mind always losing a Pokemon to it or not having any consistent methods to take it out because that's just what Mence does and he's been doing it for a while. What's the use in changing or complaining now? On the other hand, you have players like me: those who have been playing both with and against Salamence thoroughly, and can therefore ascertain that it's simply a step above the rest of OU.

Bottom line, you can't have a balanced metagame where one Pokemon reigns as the undisputed king. If our most potent offensive threats such as Gengar, Lucario, Gyarados, and Infernape have solid checks/counters, then Salemence should have them too. We can't allow Salamence to simply be "better" than the rest of OU or "unique" in the regard that its checks/counters are extremely limited, or we'd be perpetuating a double standard regarding what is and isn't acceptable in the OU metagame.

[Conflict]

I thought the Latias ban was absolutely necessary. You might not think much of it, after having been so used to running Scarftar every match, but what about teams where you wanted to use something else? Great, so that opens up your slot to Scizor or Blissey. If you don't run any of them, you're most likely not going to win.

I just want to point out that this isnt right, Latias had some Counter and many Checks (usually nearly all Steels). I have more than decent success with many teams without Scizor/Blissey/Scarftar and only 1 Steel etc. pp. and had never a problem with Latias...

And btw the Specsset wasnt the best Latias-Set, due to the Lock in one move (You just need to predict against it, like you have to against any Choice-User). The best one by far was the LO-Set....

Honestly i didnt think that Salamence is Ubermaterial, neither was Latias though. Bring it back!

And Infernape is a bitch naow. :/ Exspecially the NP-Set with FBlast,FocusBlast,V-Wave/{Electric}/GKnot.

[butterfingers158]

Originally Posted by Fat Conflict

I just want to point out that this isnt right, Latias had some Counter and many Checks (usually nearly all Steels). I have more than decent success with many teams without Scizor/Blissey/Scarftar and only 1 Steel etc. pp. and had never a problem with Latias...

And btw the Specsset wasnt the best Latias-Set, due to the Lock in one move (You just need to predict against it, like you have to against any Choice-User). The best one by far was the LO-Set....

Honestly i didnt think that Salamence is Ubermaterial, neither was Latias though. Bring it back!

And Infernape is a bitch naow. :/ Exspecially the NP-Set with FBlast,FocusBlast,V-Wave/{Electric}/GKnot.

Latias was banned for the Specs Set, since its "counters" were 2HKO'd by Surf on the switch in. Scarf-Tar made the LO set its bitch.

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Bottom line, you can't have a balanced metagame where one Pokemon reigns as the undisputed king.

Metagames will always have an undisputed king. There will always be a #1 Poke in the metagame. How long has Scizor been on top?? How long has Venusaur been on top in UU?? You can't get a metagame where there is no #1, because frankly, that is impossible.

[Conflict]

Originally Posted by Fat butterfingers158

Latias was banned for the Specs Set, since its "counters" were 2HKO'd by Surf on the switch in. Scarf-Tar made the LO set its bitch.

Specsstarmie kills everything besides Blissey with the appropriate move (Ohkot/2Hko at worst) - Uber? So does CB-Mence, CB-Tar, CB/Specs-Infernape, etc. pp. Choiceusers are usually very strong....

Sorry but the reasoning for the Ban wasnt very good. You couldnt spam your Dragonmoves until you havent scouted the whole other team, and if they have Tyranitar/Steel + Water you have to rely on guessing to net an kill.

Let me tell you that the LO-Set was miles better than the Specsset. Believe me it was!

Unfortunately Latias got banned so its useless to discuss this case anyways. :(

[Ice-eyes]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Metagames will always have an undisputed king. There will always be a #1 Poke in the metagame. How long has Scizor been on top?? How long has Venusaur been on top in UU?? You can't get a metagame where there is no #1, because frankly, that is impossible.

By 'undisputed king', SJ didn't mean the most-used pokemon - he meant something which is flat-out better than anything else. Scizor is top in usage, but unlike Mence no-one is seriously arguing that it's broken. Venusaur is similar - very, very good, but not significantly better than any of its competitors.

[deluge]

A well played Salamence can be devastating but it is surprisingly easy to waste as well.
If this were chess, it would be the Queen. It's heavy artillery that you can't use wantonly and expect it to perform.
I've found Salamence sweeps to be rare due to the prevalance of SR, Sandstorm (TTar on 1/5 of teams in April) plus LO recoil and CB Scizor's BP which does in excess of 50% to most variants.
In my experience, Gyarados, especially the bulky Taunt variant, sweeps more readily despite having a couple solid counters.

What Salamence is good at, when well played, is opening a match by removing a key Pokemon.
It can also be a useful emergency check to Fighting type threats with Intimidate and its resistances.
It is a dangerous opponent for sure, but sweep most common OU teams with little effort with Draco Meteor? Outrage?
Not in my experience. It would be pretty farcical for it to be banned, IMO.

[Mufasa]

That applies to pretty much any Pokemon that has a good attack stat. You can easily mispredict wrong against something like CB Slaking and end up losing Pokemon after Pokemon and losing. Is Slaking Uber?? You can answer that question yourself. __________________

Maybe i mispredict five times, one for each pokemon I have...everytime slaking switches back in... whereas if I let mence get that DD up my team is gonna take a large beating, and if it gets through my physical wall because I expected a DD, that spells death in today's physical based metagame. Maybe not death, but it's gonna hurt.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat Conflict

I just want to point out that this isnt right, Latias had some Counter and many Checks (usually nearly all Steels). I have more than decent success with many teams without Scizor/Blissey/Scarftar and only 1 Steel etc. pp. and had never a problem with Latias...

And btw the Specsset wasnt the best Latias-Set, due to the Lock in one move (You just need to predict against it, like you have to against any Choice-User). The best one by far was the LO-Set....
.

Not even remolely true. Latias' best set was by far it's specs set. It punched holes in many teams like no other. Calm Mind didn't have the time to setup, so it wasn't even that good. (Besides 1+ Dragon Pulse is manageable) Specs Draco Meteor is a different story, and only the most dedicated of special walls/bulky steals can take it.

To add insult to injury, it even learned Trick, so even the mighty Blissey had to watch out. (Honestly, if it lacked Trick I actually think it was OU material...)

[capefeather]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Bottom line, you can't have a balanced metagame where one Pokemon reigns as the undisputed king. If our most potent offensive threats such as Gengar, Lucario, Gyarados, and Infernape have solid checks/counters, then Salemence should have them too. We can't allow Salamence to simply be "better" than the rest of OU or "unique" in the regard that its checks/counters are extremely limited, or we'd be perpetuating a double standard regarding what is and isn't acceptable in the OU metagame.

I think that this is where a fundamental difference in opinion lies between many of us. This has been repeated over and over again already, in various degrees of writing quality, but the fact that one Pokémon is better, even significantly better, than everyone else in OU is not sufficient for warranting a ban. This phenomenon readily exists in other competitive games. The real question, of course, is whether Salamence makes the game degenerate, and whether the game would improve significantly and decisively with its removal. So far, I don't recall seeing anything really refuting Aeroblacktyl's post oh-so-long ago that Salamence may actually be improving the game at a higher level by putting focus on prediction. Maybe Philip7086 already argued with him about it on #stark, idk.

This is more off-topic, but I think that Latias was better than Salamence was. Latias only really needed one set with four specific moves to make the opponent think about which nuke Latias might pull out. Salamence's power largely stems from the fact that it could run one of two main sets.

[Fiveoclock]

Well, Mence is powerful, and whether or not he kills seems to be a prediction game. For example, I have my Metagross out. The enemy switches to Mence. I predict his Fire Blast/EQ and switch to Flygon. It's a Fire Blast, and does X amount of damage. I use Outrage and kill. This took out Mence, but what if he predicted my switch and went with an Outrage/Draco Meteor? Flygon would faint and Mence could do some serious damage. Or maybe he switched out Mence when Flygon was attacking and sent out a Steel? I would be locked on to Outrage and he could get an easy KO.

Whether or not Mence does well seems to be in how the players predict the other's moves. I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be Uber because of that, but we need to decide whether or not that fufills the Uber qualifications.

[Misa]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Metagames will always have an undisputed king. There will always be a #1 Poke in the metagame. How long has Scizor been on top?? How long has Venusaur been on top in UU?? You can't get a metagame where there is no #1, because frankly, that is impossible.

That depends on whether the pokemon has the moveset, stats, and typing in order for the pokemon to be truly broken. Scizor has STAB Bullet Punch and U-turns that do massive damage, as well as great general bulk, but his movesets don't cover everything in the standard metagame.

Salamence however, has decent speed, and has the ability to hit everything for neutral damage, which scizor cannot boast.

[Dura]

Latias was banned because she was worth 3-4 Pokemon in one slot. Levitating, very good Special wall, 110 speed with good stats all around, and good resistances gave you so much that it was almost dumb not to have her at some point.

Look at all the high-rated LMT's. They all have Latias.

Now can we start discussing Salamence again?


I'm in the camp of nay-uber right now, on the experience that I don't like the Suspect meta.

[xKYSx]

Originally Posted by Fat XxBlazePWBTxX

I agree completely with what "TehYoshi" said. Are you implying in this post ( your first post, in addition), that Stealth Rock has nothing to do with Weavile or Mamoswine. Doesn't that make all the valid Stealth-Rock arguments against Mence worthless, thus making him more pro-uber ( Nb: I'm not stating that he should or shouldn't be Uber).

If the "Average Standard Team", as you like to call it, I quote, "runs a rapid spinner", then why can't Salamence be regarded as part of this Standard Team with Rapid Spinning Support, using it to his advantage via switching out.

Another point about Focus Sash, Sandstorm as you undoubtedly know will get rid of it. If you have read most if not all of this thread as I have done; you will have noted that many people have included Sandstorm ( as well as Stealth Rock) in their argument for stating that Mence should stay where it is as there are simple, effective ways of dealing with it.

I am not in any way stating that their argument to include Sandstorm if wrong. The amount of Tyranitars appears to be falling; not surprisingly IMO with the departure of Latias, thus Scarf Tar is less required - Not to say that Tyranitar as a whole is not needed in this Metagame - it is and very much so.

So, ideally for an argument, you should indeed use the same conditions for both sides of the story. Just because Weavile and Mamoswine do not like Stealth Rock or Sandstorm ( despite the latter not effecting Mamoswine), you must then suggest as part of your argument, that Salamence's team is also running without Stealth Rock or Sandstorm in its way.

This makes your point rather counter-productive. So please, in the future, at least for the best of arguments, use a balanced approach to both sides. I'm not saying your input is not needed, it very much is. In my opinion, the greater number of people we get to post solid posts on this thread, the more chance we'll get what should be, the right decision regarding Mence's position in the Metagame now...

Or at least until Gen V comes out.

I am speaking it from my personal wi-fi experience on the standard metagame, I for one don't really mind/care on the ban on sallys, because I run a hail team, and knowing the weaknesses and how advisable it is to take SR out from the field means I have to get a spinner on my team, sure you can say well scizor can pretty much fuck you over but that doesn't specifically mean the whole entire team is ice theme-related, I don't have definite "counters" for scizor but I can definitely put it on check/threaten it. Oh and yes I actually do run a weavile w/ focus sash, sure call me a noob if you want but I like to play around with mindgames, it's humorous to see players assume the most common set for a pokemon and think they have it wrapped up.

Next I wanted to address is the part where someone was explaining the whole concepts of "counters/checks/revenge killing"; it doesn't really matter much when A kills B and B sends out C which is revenge/check for A either way as long A knows that other person has C, he/she pretty much put on check or seeing a revenge kill on A.

Lastly, I dunno how to multi-quote because I'm not much of a forum person but who ever said rotoms + his forms are common, I haven't really seen them much in matches I played; and yes if you play on shoddy, that's not my position to talk about because I don't play shoddy.

[Yoz]

... who ever said rotoms + his forms are common, I haven't really seen them much in matches I played; and yes if you play on shoddy, that's not my position to talk about because I don't play shoddy.

Rotom-A is the most common Spin blocker in the metagame. You don't see any because you can't use Rotom-A on Wifi.

Anyway, what people tend to forget is that normally it isn't individual things which make a poke uber, but rather a combination.

Salamence has a lot going for him:

1. Can hit every type for neutral damage
2. Has no hard counter
3. Has amazing base stats
4. Has a good Movepool (yes I know Dnite outclasses it but still)
5. Can be unpredictable, due to so many viable sets.
6. Can possibly Roost off SR/SS/etc. damage
7. TTar is falling in usage apparently
8. Able to outspeed almost everything after 1 DD inluding a lot of scarfed pokes
9. Quite good typing
10. Very Good Ability, forcing switches from many pokes.

Also, to add to him being more uber, he is over-centralising, just take a look at the Suspect metagame and you will realise how much. Although this isn't that important as a reason as it doesn't necessarily mean a poke is Uber.

IMO, a metagame without Mence is much better and benefits the metagame, allowing so many more pokes to be used and preventing Scizor from being so overused.

[Chou Toshio]

Originally Posted by Fat Misa

I wouldn't really say CB flygon is better than CB Chomp. Chomp can actually 2HKO Cress and Hippowdon with Outrage while Flygon can't. Plus Chomp has better defenses and more overall power.

Note the use of the word "arguably," as in there is an assumption that Garchomp has its own advantages. More importantly, arguing about banded Flygon v. Garchomp has no relevance in a discussion of Salamence in OU.

The point is only that Salamence is an inferior choice user, and we should keep arguments focused onto the mix/dd sets.

Mix Mence > Band/Specs in terms of power

Scarf-Flygon > Scarf-mence

[CPrime]

Honestly, this 50 page mess seems pretty ridiculous. Salamence can be hard to take down if you're not prepared for it, just like anything. It can do huge amounts of damage if you predict incorrectly. However, it can also be fairly easy to deal with.

I've laddered a bit over the past couple weeks and I can truthfully say that I have never lost a match due to Salamence "easily sweeping through my team." I use Donphan and Scizor as priority checks to Salamence, and yes, killing it does usually require sacrificing something. This is the case with many sweepers though; if you don't have a perfect counter for an enemy sweeper, something is going down in order to stop the sweep.

While Salamence is indeed unpredictable, to an extent, it is also fairly predictable at the same time. Anyone who has ever used Salamence knows that you can't just outrage on the first turn unless you want him walled by a Steel or just revenged easily. When using Salamence, it can be easy to mispredict your opponent's move and end up with your Salamence dead.

This may not be the best example, but last week when I was laddering, a Salamence popped up against my Scizor, which had not attacked yet. Knowing that all common Salamence sets carry Fire Blast/Flamethrower, I didn't want to keep Scizor in to die; however, my opponent could just click Earthquake (another move all Salamences know) to catch my Heatran on the switch. I decided at this point that Scizor would be more useful than Heatran (because of Bullet Punch), so I put Heatran in, who took a Fire Blast. From there, Salamence had the options of switching and taking more Stealth Rock damage or staying in and taking less damage from Life Orb/Sandstorm but potentially dying to Dragon Pulse. At this point, I figured he would EQ, simply because you don't Draco Meteor/Outrage/Fire Blast a Heatran. Therefore, I went to my Scarfed Flygon, knowing that even if Flygon died to a Dragon attack, Scizor could easily revenge it with Bullet Punch. Salamence EQed, Flygon got in for free and killed Salamence with Outrage.

Now, from the opponent's view, what would be happening? Salamence comes in and is instantly at 75%. An enemy Scizor is out. By using a Fire move, you risk the damage from Bullet Punch, but get a clean kill. By using EQ or either Dragon move, you risk dying from 2 Bullet Punches without doing too much to Scizor. Fire Blast is, therefore, the safest option. When Heatran comes out, you are unsure of whether Heatran is Scarfed and will kill you or will Sub if you switch. Switching in again will bring you to 28%. Fire Blasting again could rape the Scizor switch, or could simply get you raped by Heatran. Either Dragon move is viable to kill an enemy Dragon or Flying type, but risks Salamence's life due to the Heatran facing him down. EQ seems obvious, but allows a switch to a multitude of pokemon immune to Ground attacks.

I'm not picking any sides of this argument, but simply trying to give multiple viewpoints about Salamence. While it may be very destructive, it can also be easy to deal with. It all comes down to how well the Salamence user can predict, along with the predictions of the person trying to take Salamence down. Prediction of moves is basically all that decides whether Salamence will sweep or be useless in any given match, as it is absolutely not guaranteed one kill per game.

[Staraptor Call]

In the CAP Movepool Policy Review thread, DJD made a point that is applicable to Salamence.

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug

On IRC we discussed making the Movepool and Base Stats inversely proportionate to each other. Basically, if we give the pokemon great base stats, then the movepool will have to be smaller. If we give it lesser base stats, then we can increase the size of the movepool.

This is not being mentioned as an all-purpose "rule of ingame pokemon" -- we all know there are many pokemon with great stats and great movepools. However, all those pokemon with both stats and moves -- they fall into two categories:

1) They have some fundamental weakness or limiting factor. Whether it be typing, ability, lack of the "right moves" for their stats, or whatever.

OR

2) They are uber.

If Salamence has a BSR and movepool that are both oversized, and no other limiting factor on its success (e.g. a bad ability or not having the right moves for its stats), then it should be Uber since it is far above other OUs in multiple categories. But is that the case? Here I have compiled a list of every OU Pokemon, its Base Stat Rating (based on X-Act's Base Stat Ratings Version 2 thread), and its number of Very Good Moves. The number of Very Good Moves a Pokemon has indicates how many useful moves a Pokemon has in its movepool. The combination of stats and movepool can be measured by multiplying these two values together. Here is a table that shows this value for every member of OU:

Pokemon       BSR         Very Good Moves         BSR*VGMs
-----------------------------------------------------------
Aerodactyl    287                   37                         10619 
Azelf         390                   38                         14820
Blissey       317                   46                         14582
Breloom       222                   34                         7548
Bronzong      247                   33                         8398
Celebi        391                   37                         14467
Dragonite     360                   47                         16920
Dusknoir      246                   45                         11070
Electivire    324                   38                         12312
Empoleon      279                   33                         9207
Flygon        302                   30                         9060
Forretress    230                   31                         7130
Gengar        291                   47                         13677
Gliscor       285                   39                         11115
Gyarados      371                   36                         13356
Heatran       363                   31                         11253
Heracross     274                   30                         8220
Hippowdon     289                   27                         7803
Infernape     327                   43                         14061
Jirachi       391                   39                         15249
Jolteon       293                   29                         8497
Kingdra       304                   26                         7904
Lucario       315                   44                         13860
Machamp       256                   38                         9728
Magnezone     275                   27                         7425
Mamoswine     299                   28                         8372
Metagross     347                   41                         14227
Ninjask       198                   21                         4158
Roserade      275                   29                         7975
Rotom-A       276                   24                         6624
Salamence     401                   36                         14436
Scizor        254                   32                         8128
Skarmory      234                   30                         7020
Smeargle      60                    112                        6720
Snorlax       315                   46                         14490
Starmie       293                   33                         9669
Suicune       358                   26                         9308
Swampert      291                   38                         11058
Tentacruel    288                   27                         7776
Togekiss      310                   42                         13020
Tyranitar     353                   53                         18709
Umbreon       307                   27                         8289
Vaporeon      293                   29                         8497
Weavile       289                   39                         11271
Zapdos        370                   26                         9620

This table raises some interesting points. Salamence does not have the highest BSR*VGMS; it is behind Tyranitar, Dragonite, Jirachi, Infernape, Azelf, Blissey, and Celebi. However, although Salamence does not have the highest BSR*VGMS in OU, it has the highest BSR. This puts all doubts that Salamence has better stats than Dragonite to rest.

Of course, there are some limitations to this model. First of all, it does not take into account how many of these VGMs each Pokemon actually uses. This causes the BSR*VGMs for some Pokemon to be higher than it should be. For example, Blissey is never going to use any of the Physical moves it has access to, so its actual combination of stats and movepool is worse than what is indicated in the table. For Pokemon that are balanced in their stats, however, BSR*VGMs is a better measurement of how good a Pokemon's combination of stats and movepool is. Dragonite, for example, can use both Physical and Special moves to a great degree of success, but also can run supporting and defensive moves like Heal Bell and Roost. Salamence, a highly viable user of Physical and Special options, and a good user of moves like Roost, definitely falls into the second category.

Another limitation not addressed by the table is the existence of the aforementioned "limiting factors" that keep Pokemon with good BSRs and movepools from becoming Uber. Tyranitar, for example, has the highest BSR*VGMs value on the table, but is limited by its six weaknesses and its low Speed. Abilites are also not addressed by the table; Salamence's Intimidate, if factored into its Defense, would make Salamence's BSR even higher. This is also true of Tyranitar's SpD boost from Sand Stream.

But overall, these statistics point to Salamence not being Uber. It may have the highest BSR in the metagame, but its movepool keeps its combination of movepool and base stats from becoming so inflated that Salamence is truly head and shoulders above the rest of OU. Salamence even has limiting factors of its own: it is weak to Ice and Rock, two of the most common offensive types in the game. Even with the Defense boost from Intimidate factored in, Salamence would not be so significantly better than other OU Pokemon that it would deserve being banned.

[Fiveoclock]

Originally Posted by Fat CPrime

Stuff.

Finally, someone who agrees with me! He can easily be out-predicted in certain situations due to the fact that he almost always has the same types of moves:Dragon, Fire, and Ground.

[Spenstar]

I don't know if this point was brought up yet, but because of Mense's ability, it actually has the potential to hamper banded pokemon, physical scarf users, setup physical sweepers not using swords dance, Baton Pass receivers/senders, and physical tanks, with its mere presence. Exceptions include Metagross with its clear body, and others, but that's still pretty major. Combine that with the above points in favor of Mense being uber and we're getting somewhere here.

Why do you think Ice and Rock moves are so common? It's because of pokemon like mense who are weak to them. Many pokemon in OU want to give up a moveslot so they have the coverage necessary to stand a chance against Mense, and it is often in vain. Stealth Rock only really hampers choice sets who do lots of switching, but as we've already established, Choice Sets aren't dominant at all on Mense. DDMense and SalaMix (another name for MixMense) are the most common ones, with the other sets making merely cameos.

[Chou Toshio]

Originally Posted by Fat Staraptor Call

In the CAP Movepool Policy Review thread, DJD made a point that is applicable to Salamence.
If Salamence has a BSR and movepool that are both oversized, and no other limiting factor on its success (e.g. a bad ability or not having the right moves for its stats), then it should be Uber since it is far above other OUs in multiple categories. But is that the case? Here I have compiled a list of every OU Pokemon, its Base Stat Rating (based on X-Act's Base Stat Ratings Version 2 thread), and its number of Very Good Moves. The number of Very Good Moves a Pokemon has indicates how many useful moves a Pokemon has in its movepool. The combination of stats and movepool can be measured by multiplying these two values together. Here is a table that shows this value for every member of OU:

Pokemon       BSR         Very Good Moves         BSR*VGMs
-----------------------------------------------------------
Aerodactyl    287                   37                         10619 
Azelf            390                   38                         14820
Blissey         317                   46                          14582
Breloom        222                   34                         7548
Bronzong      247                   33                          8398
Celebi          391                   37                          14467
Dragonite     360                   47                          16920
Dusknoir       246                   45                          11070
Electivire      324                   38                          12312
Empoleon      279                  33                           9207
Flygon         302                   30                          9060
Forretress     230                  31                          7130
Gengar         291                   47                          13677
Gliscor          285                  39                          11115
Gyarados      371                  36                           13356
Heatran        363                  31                          11253
Heracross     274                   30                          8220
Hippowdon    289                   27                         7803
Infernape     327                   43                          14061
Jirachi          391                   39                         15249
Jolteon        293                    29                          8497
Kingdra        304                    26                         7904
Lucario         315                   44                         13860
Machamp     256                   38                          9728
Magnezone   275                   27                          7425
Mamoswine   299                   28                          8372
Metagross    347                   41                          14227
Ninjask         198                   21                          4158
Roserade      275                   29                          7975
Rotom-A       276                  24                           6624
Salamence    401                   36                          14436
Scizor          254                   32                          8128
Skarmory      234                   30                         7020
Smeargle       60                    -                           -
Snorlax         315                  46                          14490
Starmie        293                   33                          9669
Suicune        358                  26                          9308
Swampert     291                  38                           11058
Tentacruel    288                  27                           7776
Togekiss       310                  42                           13020
Tyranitar      353                  53                           18709
Umbreon       307                  27                          8289
Vaporeon      293                  29                           8497
Weavile        289                  39                           11271
Zapdos         370                  26                          9620

This table raises some interesting points. Salamence does not have the highest BSR*VGMS; it is behind Tyranitar, Dragonite, Jirachi, Infernape, Azelf, Blissey, and Celebi. However, although Salamence does not have the highest BSR*VGMS in OU, it has the highest BSR. This puts all doubts that Salamence has better stats than Dragonite to rest.

Of course, there are some limitations to this model. First of all, it does not take into account how many of these VGMs each Pokemon actually uses. This causes the BSR*VGMs for some Pokemon to be higher than it should be. For example, Blissey is never going to use any of the Physical moves it has access to, so its actual combination of stats and movepool is worse than what is indicated in the table. For Pokemon that are balanced in their stats, however, BSR*VGMs is a better measurement of how good a Pokemon's combination of stats and movepool is. Dragonite, for example, can use both Physical and Special moves to a great degree of success, but also can run supporting and defensive moves like Heal Bell and Roost. Salamence, a highly viable user of Physical and Special options, and a good user of moves like Roost, definitely falls into the second category.

Another limitation not addressed by the table is the existence of the aforementioned "limiting factors" that keep Pokemon with good BSRs and movepools from becoming Uber. Tyranitar, for example, has the highest BSR*VGMs value on the table, but is limited by its six weaknesses and its low Speed. Abilites are also not addressed by the table; Salamence's Intimidate, if factored into its Defense, would make Salamence's BSR even higher. This is also true of Tyranitar's SpD boost from Sand Stream.

But overall, these statistics point to Salamence not being Uber. It may have the highest BSR in the metagame, but its movepool keeps its combination of movepool and base stats from becoming so inflated that Salamence is truly head and shoulders above the rest of OU. Salamence even has limiting factors of its own: it is weak to Ice and Rock, two of the most common offensive types in the game. Even with the Defense boost from Intimidate factored in, Salamence would not be so significantly better than other OU Pokemon that it would deserve being banned.

BSR is not a variable that we should depend on for tiering purposes though. It is, after all, a variable found using one person's (X-Act's) assumptions/weights of the value of certain base stat allocations that may or may not weigh true in actual play.

For instance, Pinser has a higher BSR than Heracross . . .

Also Rock weakness is a defining limiting factor as you mentioned-- worsened by SR. Out of all the possible types to be weak to, I think it can be definably said that being weak to Rock, Bug and Dark (SR, U-Turn, Pursuit) are bigger problems for a pokemon than other weaknesses.

Whether SR weak or U-Turn weak is worse all depends on a pokemon's ability to do heavy damage/shrug off U-Turns to/from common U-Turners. For instance, Weavile's U-Turn weak is much worse than Starmie's (because Starmie punches a serious hole through Scizor).

[Yoz]

That table is a bad indicator, because even one (semi) good move which that poke might never use has a huge impact. Remember, even x3 compared to x2 is a huge difference. Also The stats should have a greater degree of impact as the stats dictate whether those moves can actually do something.

Besides, in my last post I actually outlined the majority of reasons why people are supporting his ban to Uber. If you read it you will realise, practically no other poke in OU has that much going for it. Also, Salamence has quite good typing because it is a dragon, yes I know it is SR weak and there is a lot of Ice moves going around. However that is a testament to Mence's centralising powers, he actually supports the use of Ice/Rock moves with his precsence in OU.

[Spenstar]

Originally Posted by Fat Yoz

That table is a bad indicator, because even one (semi) good move which that poke might never use has a huge impact. Remember, even x3 compared to x2 is a huge difference. Also The stats should have a greater degree of impact as the stats dictate whether those moves can actually do something.

Besides, in my last post I actually outlined the majority of reasons why people are supporting his ban to Uber. If you read it you will realise, practically no other poke in OU has that much going for it. Also, Salamence has quite good typing because it is a dragon, yes I know it is SR weak and there is a lot of Ice moves going around. However that is a testament to Mence's centralising powers, he actually supports the use of Ice/Rock moves with his precsence in OU.

Someone agrees with my above post! Yay! LOL

On the other hand, if Mense got Uber'd, would Ice and Rock moves still be popular Because of Dragonite and (in the case of ice) flygon?

[Aeres]

Originally Posted by Fat Spenstar

Someone agrees with my above post! Yay! LOL

On the other hand, if Mense got Uber'd, would Ice and Rock moves still be popular Because of Dragonite and (in the case of ice) flygon?

Why wouldn't they be used? Ice and Rock are both potent attacking types, and many Pokemon make excellent use out of them regardless of whether or not Salamence is banned. Pokemon like Tyranitar, Weavile, Mamoswine, bulky Waters, Starmie, Lucario, Hippowdon, and others all get a lot out of using Rock/Ice attacks, whether it's for utilizing STAB options or just thrown onto a set for coverage purposes.

Rock and Ice moves won't see less use just because Salamence might be facing life without parole in Ubers, rest assured.

[Objection]

Not to mention there will still be pokemon in the metagame weak to Rock/Ice besides Dragonite and Flygon. Celebi, Zapdos, Gyarados, Gliscor ...