Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics - June 2010

[Human]

I would look at Rotom-S for a second. It is ranked 116 and it is still in OU? It does have great typing/stats/ability but in comparison to other Rotom-A the attack it gets is not that useful. I can see it going down to BL, but not UU obviously just so it can get more usage. Heracross might become BL as well or it might just be that Porygon-Z becomes OU.

[Eggbert]

With some t-wave support, CBcross tears apart everything. Even rotom is 2HKOd by megahorn. Gyarados can be 2HKOd as well. Besides ghosts, not much can repeatedly switch on on heracross with SR up. And there is this pursuit thing that deals with ghosts. I'm actually glad it's underappreciated.

[Naxte]

Originally Posted by Fat Human

I would look at Rotom-S for a second. It is ranked 116 and it is still in OU? It does have great typing/stats/ability but in comparison to other Rotom-A the attack it gets is not that useful. I can see it going down to BL, but not UU obviously just so it can get more usage. Heracross might become BL as well or it might just be that Porygon-Z becomes OU.

All the Rotom's are grouped together as "Rotom-A" (short for "Rotom-Appliance Forms") for tiering purposes, as the only difference between all of them is one move and they're the same exact Pokemon beyond that. That's why Rotom-S is so low in usage, but is still considered OU.

[Human]

Originally Posted by Fat Naxte

All the Rotom's are grouped together as "Rotom-A" (short for "Rotom-Appliance Forms") for tiering purposes, as the only difference between all of them is one move and they're the same exact Pokemon beyond that. That's why Rotom-S is so low in usage, but is still considered OU.

Sorry, I have not been on Smogon for so long (joined in late April) so I have not seen the process of the tier list being updated, but I would like to point out that in the OU tier they are each given different sets and don't just count as one pokemon there, Rotom-A is 4/49 pokemon in the OU Tier looking at the analysis page with the tiering.

[Naxte]

Originally Posted by Fat Human

Sorry, I have not been on Smogon for so long (joined in late April) so I have not seen the process of the tier list being updated, but I would like to point out that in the OU tier they are each given different sets and don't just count as one pokemon there, Rotom-A is 4/49 pokemon in the OU Tier looking at the analysis page with the tiering.

Yeah, they're list separately, but that's only for statistics sake, for those that are interested (and to be accurate). For tiering purposes, only the cumulative Rotom-A's usage is used.

[Human]

Originally Posted by Fat Naxte

Yeah, they're list separately, but that's only for statistics sake, for those that are interested (and to be accurate). For tiering purposes, only the cumulative Rotom-A's usage is used.

Thanks for explaining this to me. I didn't really understand the tiering process and the - next to Rotom-A didn't make much sense for me seeing I never looked at the usage statistics before. Thank you for the clarification.

[bittman]

Wow, Moltres dropped 9 places from #7 to #16 in UU. Perhaps Stealth Rock has become more common over spikes or tspikes in UU again?

Also found this interesting:
| Swellow | Item | Toxic Orb | 59.9 |
| Swellow | Item | Flame Orb | 35.7 |
| Swellow | Item | Other (2) | < 3.0 |
Guess the SubPassEndevour set doesn't see much use.

[SJCrew]

Froslass's ban was basically the end of offensive Spikestacking in UU, which takes a lot away from Moltres's power and influence. Now bulky Water types can feel safer about switching in and scaring it off, not to mention it still has that nasty double weakness to SR holding it back.

[min min]

Speaking of Froslass, it's good to see it at the borderline of effective leads in Standard, with stuff like Zapdos (???) after it. At least people are using it more than other unorthodox anti-leads like Gengar and Salamence, and SR+Aqua Jet Empoleon.

[Shimrit As]

Originally Posted by Fat min min

Speaking of Froslass, it's good to see it at the borderline of effective leads in Standard, with stuff like Zapdos (???) after it. At least people are using it more than other unorthodox anti-leads like Gengar and Salamence, and SR+Aqua Jet Empoleon.

TBH, I don't think Froslass is a good lead in OU. Especially in the current metagame, it gets too many unfavourable match-ups. Azelf outspeeds and 2HKOs with Fire Blast, Metagross and its Bullet Punch can dispose of Froslass with 100% HP left, Machamp beats it with Payback + Bullet Punch, Jirachi can shut it down with Scarf Iron Head.. the list goes on. I can imagine it setting up Spikes on Swampert from apart from that I think it's pretty much unviable.

[petrie911]

Originally Posted by Fat Rhys

The fact that a BL metagame seems interesting hints at the fact that BL is getting bloated again, both through the slow creeping down of power due to suspect testing in UU and the dribbles of OU's recent rejects. Most of the supposed overpowered pokes in BL like Cress actually have several checks also in BL: Honchkrow with its STAB Night Slash Sucker Punch and Pursuit for example isn't something Cress wants to see, nor does it want any part of switching into Shaymin Seed Flare or dealing with STABed, possibly specsed, Bug Buzzes from Yanmega.

Even Heracross sets run into some problems dealing with BL pokes. Choiced Heracross needs to be locked into Megahorn to dent Cress, and Guts is outrun and easily OKHOed by Staraptor, Yanmega, or Crobat.

Honestly the poke that would probably wreck UU the most at this point is Abomasnow with Snow Warning.

BL is not bloated. It has a grand total of 10 Pokemon, 11 if Heracross joins. All indications are that no other Pokemon will be joining BL. By contrast, Ubers has 24 (25 if Salamence is banned) and old BL had upwards of 60. Some BL Pokemon do counter each other; many Ubers also counter each other. We still don't allow them in OU.

A BL metagame would be a lot like UU, but more centralized around the BLs. It's really not all that interesting.

[Darth Kaiser]

I do wish that latias is back in OU then again the game wouldn't be open ended as it's now. A BL metagame does not really call my attention it's just like a UU of some sorts.

[FerrariCUBU]

BL is a complete waste of a tier. What is the point of banning a dozen (or less) Pokemon from UU play when a place could easily be found for them? It doesn't seem terribly difficult to decide which are OU material and which could fit into UU without causing a problem. Meanwhile, the Pokemon currently in BL get hardly any use due to their "limbo" denomination.

[petrie911]

Originally Posted by Fat FerrariCUBU

BL is a complete waste of a tier. What is the point of banning a dozen (or less) Pokemon from UU play when a place could easily be found for them? It doesn't seem terribly difficult to decide which are OU material and which could fit into UU without causing a problem. Meanwhile, the Pokemon currently in BL get hardly any use due to their "limbo" denomination.

A place has already tried to be found for them in UU. They didn't fit. And since they aren't used enough to be considered OU, they go to BL. Nothing is stopping you from using them in OU, mind you.

Also keep in mind that there are OUs that have been tested in UU and found to not be broken. If Umbreon, Roserade, or Smeargle ever lose enough usage to fall from OU, they will simply rejoin the UU metagame. Additionally, Pokemon who have never before dropped from OU, like Heracross if he drops, get their chance at fitting into the UU metagame. However, if a BL like Cresselia were to rise to OU, then fall back down, it would return to BL.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat FerrariCUBU

BL is a complete waste of a tier. What is the point of banning a dozen (or less) Pokemon from UU play when a place could easily be found for them? It doesn't seem terribly difficult to decide which are OU material and which could fit into UU without causing a problem. Meanwhile, the Pokemon currently in BL get hardly any use due to their "limbo" denomination.

You do realize every single BL pokémon as of now has been tested in UU and deemed broken, thus being banned, right.

[FerrariCUBU]

Originally Posted by Fat petrie911

A place has already tried to be found for them in UU. They didn't fit. And since they aren't used enough to be considered OU, they go to BL. Nothing is stopping you from using them in OU, mind you.

Really, is this so hard for people to understand?

I understand it fine. What I'm getting at is that the tiering system is screwed up. An idiotic "limbo" tier, a council of nine deciding Salamence's fate, over centralization based on a system too reliant on usage stats, an over complicated and ineffective suspect test, need I go on?

[Veedrock]

If you can do one better go to the suggestion box. You're not contributing to the thread at hand.

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by Fat FerrariCUBU

I understand it fine. What I'm getting at is that the tiering system is screwed up.

The goal of the game is to win, people use pokemon which make that happen more often than not, the deciding factor on where pokemon go is how good they are. Garchomp was too good for OU so it was sent to Ubers, Yanmega was too good for UU so it was sent to BL. The goal is to have a balanced metagame by having people play the game, then vote on whether they think a pokemon is unhealthy (read: broken) for the metagame. It's hardly 'screwed up' as you so carelessly put it.

Originally Posted by Fat FerrariCUBU

An idiotic "limbo" tier, a council of nine deciding Salamence's fate, over centralization based on a system too reliant on usage stats, an over complicated and ineffective suspect test, need I go on?

The 'limbo tier' was made for the pokemon who were going to be tested in the DPP metagame, our testing is basically over so it'll be used again when Gen 5 comes out. That being said the council of nine was made because the current suspect test took much longer than many people would have liked, the council is a positive step in suspect tests, since only people who have an extensive knowledge of the metagame were allowed in.

[MegaKick]

Guys, don't feed the trolls, it's probably another serebii idiot angry over how smogon does tiering.
Also, metagross at number 10! I always thought that with explosion/meteor mash/bullet punch/stealth rock (I have two waters so heatran and infernape are fine) @ lum berry is the best lead ever, but good to see some people are using him outside of a lead, CB metagross > CB scizor anyday. I think meteor mash/zen headbutt/bullet punch/explosion is best cause rotoms a bitch, but apperently only 10% of people think so.

[Icy Vegeta]

I think people need to reconsider how they use Heracross. Sure, Scarf looks great on paper. But it lacks the SHEER POWER that Heracross can bring with its Banded set. Not alot of Pokes enjoy taking a Banded Megahorn/Close Combat coming from its huge base 125 Attack.

[Agent123]

Scarf Heracross can't beat Gengar, who is #6 right now.

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat Agent123

Scarf Heracross can't beat Gengar, who is #6 right now.

Night Slash/Pursuit wants a word with you.

[Agent123]

That's why you come in on a Close Combat.

[MegaKick]

which is why you predict the very obvious switchin. Besides, with gengar's fraitality, i bet even a 4x resisted megahorn will hurt, and stone edge will probably do +80%. But, the best heracross set is the stall breaker with burn orb, swords dance facade and dual stab.

[cosmicexplorer]

I thank you for these stats Doug, they're quite useful. Scizor down to #8 on suspect, anyone?