Legality of in-game glitches. (A discussion thread.)

[Icy Vegeta]

The creation of this thread was approved by Jibaku.

Hello Little Cup players. I do not partake much into the metagame myself, but recently a very controversial subject was brought up over at Wi-Fi and I would like to see some discussion over this topic on behalf of Little Cup players.

Where do people stand with the allowence of the Pomeg Berry Glitch? For those unawares of this here is a short from bulbapedia: When you use a Pomeg Berry in Generation III with a Pokemon with 1 Health you have an extreme amount of health after you use it. Since the Pomeg Berry lowers HP by 10 or more EV points, the HP stat of the Pokémon becomes for example -1, which the game interprets as 65,535 because the byte managing HP is unsigned (displayed as "?35"). Once you give it a Potion or anything, it will have an HP of 0 yet not be fainted due to the way the game delivers that status of Fainted only in battle and does not check for it until then.

If the player has only an egg in his or her party with the Pokémon affected, the egg (or rather, the Pokémon that would be inside) can be forced into battle by following the same steps, but putting the egg at the head of the party. The egg will have the same stats it would have upon hatching, as well as all of the moves. This allows it to battle as if it were a normal Pokémon.

The following is the most important part of the glitch concerning Little Cup: An egg that battles can gain experience in this way, and with patience, level up, learn moves, and even evolve before hatching.

Now, from what I understand the use of this accepted. However where would we draw the line? The Mimic Glitch is banned, but yet the Pomeg Berry Glitch is not? I think we should we should come up with clear boundaries on what is allowed and what is not. Please voice your opinions on your reasoning on why something should be allowed or not.

Lastly, please keep this discussion as friendly and productive as possible as this is a serious issue.

~ Icy Vegeta

[Despotar]

I don't believe that this should be allowed, as having seeing the words
DespoTheTar sent out "Egg"
should be something no one wants to see. As this is glitching something to have more HP then should be possible, if it were allowed, everyone would use this glitch. If you didn't, you would be wiped out by the opposition. I say ban it.

[kd24]

i don't endorse either, but to address your points -

the pomeg glitch allows pokemon to get moves they were intended to have anyway. staryu gets hydro pump, porygon gets tri attack, etc from this glitch iirc and since its known as fact that they receive these moves via level up later on, it isn't much of a big deal

the mimic glitch allows pokemon to get moves they were never intended to have (walk into an official nintendo sponsored tournament with a pokemon that used the mimic glitch - you'd be thrown out!). since smogon would like to stay as close as possible to ingame mechanics without losing common sense, i think its our stance to allow the pomeg glitch as it simply speeds up the process of the inevitable, and only actually affects little cup - the mimic glitch, while obtainable, goes against any common sense of "this pokemon isn't allowed this"

my personal opinion? both are glitches that shouldn't be allowed on shoddy little cup - they go against intended game mechanics despite being obtainable (these pokemon are genderless for a reason, its so they can't breed to receive these moves, it was the point in 2nd gen all the way to now) and i think its just common sense to follow through the way nintendo intended it in this case.

[Human]

Originally Posted by Fat Despotar

I don't believe that this should be allowed, as having seeing the words
DespoTheTar sent out "Egg"
should be something no one wants to see. As this is glitching something to have more HP then should be possible, if it were allowed, everyone would use this glitch. If you didn't, you would be wiped out by the opposition. I say ban it.

He is talking about using the glitch on something like Emerald to teach the egg moves it normally does not know at that level to attain special move sets that normally are impossible to get without the use of the Mimic Glitch or a cheating device.

Personally I do not play LC, but I would say that it is not fair as it gives an unfair advantage to some people. Any in-game glitch that allows something to have moves that it does not normally learn in game for the generation meant for play, excluding move tutors in a previous generation as those are attainable without glitches.

[Zacchaeus]

I had a discussion like this earlier today...
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthr...=74433&page=19

[Matthew]

You don't seem to understand the differences in the glitches which we allow and the ones which we don't. I've already drawn up the comparison between the Smash community and how they ban certain glitches which are deemed game breaking but leave the others free to use. (The IC's freeze glitch is banned while L-cancel and wavedash are not.). The Pomeg glitch which I allowed is hardly the biggest deal in Little Cup, for Christ's sakes, Staryu hardly ever uses Rapid Spin, Baltoy is useless, the only pokemon that got a bonus from Pomeg is Zigzagoon and Porygon. Even then they have to use an ability which neither of them want to, and Zigzagoon is honestly, extremely underwhelming.

As for what Human brought up the glitch doesn't give a pokemon moves it isn't going to learn anyway, the problem is they can't learn them due to them being genderless. So the Pomeg glitch simply lets Porygon learn Tri Attack and then hatch at level 5, making it OK in little cup. We allow which glitches we see as OK, that's how it is.

[Icy Vegeta]

Originally Posted by Fat Genny

You don't seem to understand the differences in the glitches which we allow and the ones which we don't. I've already drawn up the comparison between the Smash community and how they ban certain glitches which are deemed game breaking but leave the others free to use. (The IC's freeze glitch is banned while L-cancel and wavedash are not.). The Pomeg glitch which I allowed is hardly the biggest deal in Little Cup, for Christ's sakes, Staryu hardly ever uses Rapid Spin, Baltoy is useless, the only pokemon that got a bonus from Pomeg is Zigzagoon and Porygon. Even then they have to use an ability which neither of them want to, and Zigzagoon is honestly, extremely underwhelming.

As for what Human brought up the glitch doesn't give a pokemon moves it isn't going to learn anyway, the problem is they can't learn them due to them being genderless. So the Pomeg glitch simply lets Porygon learn Tri Attack and then hatch at level 5, making it OK in little cup. We allow which glitches we see as OK, that's how it is.

To note, I am not disrespecting your decision in any way, I wanted to see the general opinion from the community so we can establish more accurate rules.

[Wild Eep*]

Originally Posted by Fat Icy Vegeta

Another Pokemon of note is Bronzor which would get Hypnosis through the use of this glitch. To note, I am not disrespecting your decision in any way, I wanted to see the general opinion from the community so we can establish more accurate rules.

The Pomeg glitch is performed in Emerald, where Bronzor doesn't exist. This glitch still wouldn't allow Hypnosis on Bronzor.

[Eo Ut Mortus]

The Pomeg Glitch being allowed while the Mimic Glitch being banned can be justified by the idea that we can just create a clause on Pokemon traded from the Japanese version of DP, thereby eliminating the Mimic Glitch altogether.

In the same way we could eliminate the Pomeg Glitch by creating a clause that bans Pokemon traded from Emerald; however, the issue of implementing it would go back to "what we feel is good for the metagame".

[Vader*]

Here is my stance on the subject, which you are perfectly free to try and convince me is wrong: The Pomeg glitch's effects are almost negligible, and the effects that is does have are largely positive. The Mimic glitch makes any Pokemon with Mimic capable of learning virtually any move. This glitch is gamebreaking, however you look at it.

The Pomeg glitch is like RBY's Hyper Beam glitch: it doesn't hurt the game and exists, so there is no reason to disallow it. If new evidence were to surface that the Pomeg glitch somehow allowed Pokemon to learn moves they would be incapable of learning by level-up, then I would move for it to be removed immediately. However, I don't see anything to gain by removing the glitch at this time, so I'm keeping it. I believe in an "innocent until proven guilty, legal until proven broken" policy in Pokemon, and I think that this is definitely a case where that idea applies.

There was also a Policy Review thread on this subject, located here. I would advise those who have not read it to read it before arguing further.

[Icy Vegeta]

Never mind.

[Zari]

Originally Posted by Fat Icy Vegeta

This is from Bulbapedia yet again but here:

In Generation IV, the glitch still exists but must be performed on a Pokémon with greater than four health. (This is possible, because if the player exploits the glitch with a Pokémon which has over 100 EVs in HP, its EVs in HP will be reset to 100).

I could have misinformation, if so, I will edit my posts.

However:

Originally Posted by Fat irc

<&boy_Genny> In Generation IV, the glitch still exists but must be performed on a Pokemon with greater than four health. (This is possible, because if the player exploits the glitch with a Pokemon which has over 100 EVs in HP, its EVs in HP will be reset to 100).
<+WildEep> IIRC gen 4 pomeg glitch behaves differently
<&boy_Genny> ah
<+WildEep> like game freezes and stuff
<+WildEep> I haven't been able to get an egg sent out with it in the 4th gen

this unfortuntely makes it impossible for pokemon in 4th gen that are genderless to get Lv-Up moves :/

[Wild Eep*]

Originally Posted by Fat Icy Vegeta

This is from Bulbapedia yet again but here:

In Generation IV, the glitch still exists but must be performed on a Pokémon with greater than four health. (This is possible, because if the player exploits the glitch with a Pokémon which has over 100 EVs in HP, its EVs in HP will be reset to 100).

I could have misinformation, if so, I will edit my posts.

I've been able to get the HP underflow part to work in Gen 4, but the glitch isn't productive there. I haven't been able to get an Egg to battle, and I've seen reports that it can cause game freezes (like in this video). As far as I can tell the 4th gen Pomeg Glitch can't accomplish anything productive.

[Icy Vegeta]

Ok, thanks for the info guys, I'll move to have that edited on bulbapedia as well.

[Miria]

Of course this hurts the game.. -.-' It IS cheating by manipulating the Pokémon as well as the game play. If there is NO natural way of teaching a Pokémon a move at level 5, or passing them on by breeding, then surely it should not be allowed to force it? You say it has very little impact, well those who follow the "game-rules" and breed their baby Pokémon strictly with egg-moves/TM's would never expect to see things such as Tri Attack Porygon or a Starmie with Hydro Pump. Why? Because it cannot be done.

Neither glitches should be allowed because the outcome is just not possible without this clever way of misusing game development-mistakes. In my opinion, it very much is the same as cheating even if you don't have to use an external device to do it.. I understand people accept "legal hacks" and all that, but that is purely because what they "hack" is do-able in game, they've just spent less time doing it. You may as well battle unevolved level 50's then if you're going to allow this use... -.-'

Battling with an egg.. come on.. This is Smogon! Not Pokécommunity! ;) Should we really let ourselves sink as low as this?

[Dusk252]

I don't think either of the glitches should be accepted. Now, I guess pretty much everyone agrees about the Mimic glitch so I'll expose my position about the Pomeg one.

Some people have said here that it's not game-breaking. That's truth. But that doesn't make it legit or acceptable. "Legal hacks" aren't game breaking but they're not allowed to be traded around! However hacks are Pokémon obtained through an external device and thus, are not legit in any way while the glitch is present in the game and can be used without affecting the legitimacy of a Pokémon. True, but glitches are not intended to be used. They're "glitches", which means they're not supposed to be there but are the fruit of a mistake by the programmers.
Now, there's RNG. Isn't it using the game mechanics in a way they're not supposed to be used just like the glitches? Once again, yes. And the difference is what we use RNG and the Pomeg Glitch for. The RNG is used to speed up a process. All the Pokémon we RNG could be obtained in other ways. The same can't be said about a level 5 Zigzagoon with Extremespeed + Belly Drum! If people use the Pomeg Glitch to get moves that the Pokémon could learn from breeding anyway (but someone forgot that move on the parents or whatever, I don't really care), I have nothing to do with it: the Pokémon is legal and its moves could have been obtained through another way. Then I don't mind the glitch. But while Zigzagoon is intended to learn Belly Drum by level up anyway (which some people pointed as the difference between the Pomeg Glitch and the Mimic Glitch since moves learn by the Mimic glitch are not supposed to be learned by the Pokémon) it is not intended to learn it before level 5, so we're taking advantage of a glitch to get a Pokémon with moves that would otherwise be impossible. I don't think that should be allowed. It's not a practical question, it's morality.

However I think that talking about morality in the Pokémon games has become a little bit harder... We all know there's a line we shouldn't cross, but the position of that line is not objective which leaves room for way too many doubts. At least IMO...

[domeface]

I just posted something about this in DMP, and my stance is this:

The mimic glitch can be used to create completely gamebreaking shit like Sheer Cold Machamp, Spore Ninjask, Skill Swap Slaking, etc. But, it can also be used to give pokemon moves that they probably should have, they make good use of, but aren't broken. For example, Nasty Plot Gengar, Aura Sphere Alakazam, ExtremeSpeed Zangoose, Fire Blast Lati@s, etc. If these pokemon got these moves added to their movepool via a tutor, event, or some other means, nobody would complain. BUT, we obviously cannot just add to pokémon's movepools as we see fit - we take what we're given, and we make the best of it. As much as I would love for Alakazam to a have a relliable Fighting move, and as much as it makes sense for him to get Aura Sphere (he's basically a toned-down, absolutely purely special version of Mewtwo, and he gets it) he doesn't, and there's nothing I can do to change that, besides waiting and hoping.
Similarly, despite the fact that Hydro Pump is in Staryu's movepool, or Belly Drum in Zigzagoon's, Hydro Pump is not in Lv5 Staryu's movepool, and Belly Drum is not in Lv5 ExtremeSpeed Zigzagoon's movepool. This may seem like a mere technicality, but one could say the same of Hypnosis Bronzor. While Hypnosis is in Bronzor's movepool, it isn't in Lv5 Bronzor's movepool, and this is recognised by the official LC rules, banning the use of Hypnosis on Bronzor. And yet, we allow Hydro Pump Stary and BD ES Zigzagoon. Why is this? What allows these pokemon to borrow their older selves' movepool, despite Bronzor being unable to? A glitch, that's what. A mistake. A bug in the programming. An accidental oversight on the part of the developers, allowing pokemon to get moves that aren't in their movepool. And what else fits that description? Ah yes, the mimic glitch. Using the pomeg glitch to give Level 5 Staryu Hydro Pump, or Level 5 ES Zigzagoon Belly Drum, is literally no different than using the Mimic glitch to give Alakazam Aura Sphere, or Gengar Nasty Plot. All of them make sense, all four pokemon would make good use of the moves in question, but all four of them do not have these moves in their movepool. If we ban the mimic glitch being used for non-broken purposes, yet allow the pomeg glitch, then we are just being hypocritical.

[Vader*]

Please don't draw any comparisons between things like "legal hacks" and the Pomeg glitch. That's just a strawman. Appealing to "Pokemon morality" is also silly. As one of you said, "we are Smogon." "Glitch" or not, this mechanic exists ingame. As DougJustDoug once said, we cannot know the programmers' intentions, we can only make assumptions. Full simulations of all possibilities that do not break the game is the only sensible solution here, and is in fact totally in line with Smogon's philosophy.

As for using the Mimic glitch for "non-broken" purposes: that would create an entirely arbitrary rule system. It is similar to arguing for level 78 Mewtwo or Rayquaza on the grounds that they are not broken. Even if that's true, it is much simpler, more efficient and less arbitrary to ban the Pokemon altogether. This is precisely what we have done with the Mimic glitch. Rather than making a totally arbitrary set of rules, we ban whatever has the possibility of unbalancing, or "breaking," the game. For OU, UU, Ubers and LC, we are the game-maker, and as a result we can choose what we want to allow and disallow.

[little gk]

Mimic is obviously broken from both perspectives, so I'll just talk about Pomeg

In competitive play there are no ethics or morals when it comes to the game, one person is doing their absolute best to defeat their opponent, but of course things are banned when they're proven broken. It doesn't really matter if it's a glitch or not because by the time the game roles off the shelves, it's in the game whether it was meant to be in there or not. The boundary is whether or not the glitch is broken, even for glitches.

[Miria]

Of course it's broken. lol There's no question about it.

From Wikipedia...

In video games, a glitch is a programming error which results in behavior not intended by the programmers. Glitches may include incorrectly displayed graphics, collision detection errors, game freezes/crashes, sound issues, and others. Some glitches are potentially dangerous to the game save data. [2]
"Glitching" is the practice of a player exploiting faults in a video game's programming to achieve tasks normally impossible if the game's script runs as intended, such as running through walls or defying the game's laws of gravity. It is often used to gain an unfair advantage over other players in multiplayer video games.

You should never be able to battle with an egg, level it up, teach it new moves and then hatch it back at level 5. We KNOW for sure genderless Pokémon are not supposed to be learning level up moves they learn at Lvl. 46 when they're at Lvl. 5. There is no doubt in what the game developers planned here.. -.-' Fine, battle and do everything in your power to win, but don't break the rules intended by the game..

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by Fat Miria

Of course it's broken. lol There's no question about it.

From Wikipedia...


You should never be able to battle with an egg, level it up, teach it new moves and then hatch it back at level 5. We KNOW for sure genderless Pokémon are not supposed to be learning level up moves they learn at Lvl. 46 when they're at Lvl. 5. There is no doubt in what the game developers planned here.. -.-' Fine, battle and do everything in your power to win, but don't break the rules intended by the game..

We make the rules as a competitive community. There's a difference between allowing something that let's an egg battle and level up and allowing something that doesn't make sense (Explosion Salamence anyone?) We decide which glitches to use and which to ignore since 'we make the rules,' and really that's all there is too it. To say that we shouldn't use Pomeg or RNG because it's morally wrong is completely stupid. There isn't a right or wrong there is something which is in the game, and we can use it to our advantage. At the end of the day this is a competitive community, we should be striving to make it as competitive as we can and Pomeg allows more pokemon to be used in battles and used well. (Porygon was basically worthless without Tri Attack.)

[Eo Ut Mortus]

To be pedantic, you have no way of proving that those "glitches" were actually unintended by Gamefreak.

[Vader*]

Terms like "intent" can only be assumed unless Gamefreak were to explicitly release their intentions. Saying what "should" happen is irrelevant. "We play Pokemon as it is given to us." If a mechanic exists and doesn't make the game unplayable, then we will allow it. Period. Again, I am entirely uninterested in a discussion of "Pokemon morality." I don't like subjectivity, so I would prefer it if arguments like "this is immoral and goes against the creators' intentions!" were not used. If you can actually articulate a way that Pomeg actually makes the game unbalanced and less competitive, then it will be removed if the argument is sound.

However, at present, you just trying to appeal to morality and argue for removing the glitch on the grounds that it is difficult to perform and that people playing "fairly" have a harder time as a result. I have asked a few WiFi users, and the Pomeg glitch is no harder to perform than gathering shards to teach a Pokemon move tutor moves. Both require you to own a specific version to properly perform.

[Dusk252]

I think the problem is that we are assuming different "intents" from Game Freak's part. I don't think any of you guys really believes that Game Freak intended it to be present in the game. But as nobody can proof you otherwise, you can freely use it to counter our arguments and take advantage of the glitch.
However, there are more reasons to believe that the Pomeg Glitch wasn't intended by Game Freak. I'm gonna quote domeface here:

Originally Posted by Fat domeface

EDIT: regarding the argument that we can't prove that the glitch was unintentional, the fact that they corrected it in Gen 4 is pretty conclusive prove, IMO. Not to mention the fact that back before the VGC had auto-leveling, so all your pokemon had to be <Lv50, TTar was banned as Pupitar evolves into him at Lv55. This is despite the fact that TTar is obtainable as low as Lv5 through the very same pomeg glitch.

So, as you obviously won't see those points as being conclusive and I think the whole discussion pretty much revolves around what Game Freak intended to do (since most of all agree it's not game-breaking and you keep saying that "we play Pokémon as it is given to us"), I guess the only possible way for ending this discussion would be an e-mail sent to Game Freak asking for their intentions.

[greg3064]

It's really just a decision between making more Pokemon competitively viable in LC and making LC based on the true movesets/capabilities of Pokemon. I don't play LC so it really doesn't affect me. I don't like departing from the "purity" of a game, typically, but sometimes it's worth doing to make it more wholesome.

I don't think you can sensibly argue that it was intentional... common sense about the nature of eggs is enough evidence that it was unintentional. But in a competitive setting, that doesn't really matter.

It isn't half as gamebreaking as the Mimic glitch. The Mimic glitch is sort of like... remaking the tiers because random Pokemon were given massive advantages over others. Pomeg will make LC a little less predictable and give some more options, but it's entirely different in scope.